There is one country that wants Snowden..

[HipChick]

The US...

LOD was on a roll tonight..

He'll just have to enjoy the view from his jail cell

[Romulus Quirinus]

1. So the idea of this man being locked in a cage naked gets you excited, eh?

Is that what you're saying? :3

[jazzimov]

4. Where in the OP did it say anything about "naked"?

And if this is a reference to Bradley Manning, he wasn't naked. He was on suicide watch because of comments HE MADE and given approved clothing.

[sabrina 1]

14. Please don't try to defend the torture of Bradley Manning. No one else is even trying to anymore.

He was tortured, Drake was persecuted and prosecuted, Binney also. And as a result, from now on US Whistle Blowers will most likely be seeking asylum from a country where these things are happening.

We elected Democrats to hold War Criminals and Wall St. criminals accountable, not those who have tried to expose the crimes.

When will Bush and Cheney and Gonzales, Condy, Wolfowitz and Rummy, Ledeen and the rest of Cheney's 'Shadow Government' be prosecuted for their crimes? THAT is the question the world has been asking.

Meantime thanks to all the brave Whistle Blowers who have tried to end these abuses of our rights, one day they will be acknowledged for their courage.

[Mojorabbit]

24. +100 nt

[HipChick]

5. It was on the LOD show..

Take it up with him..

[alcibiades_mystery]

2. Oh dang, yo...you're in for it now!

[HipChick]

7. Oh Noes..

[img][/img]

[HardTimes99]

3. The Rude Pundit put it better than I ever could:

Man, it's exciting, isn't it? Where will NSA leaker Edward Snowden end up? Will he live in limbo in a TGI Friday's in the Moscow airport? Will he get asylum? Where will he take a shit? Does he have access to shampoo? Holy fuck, tell us more about his plea bargain deal offers and his attempts to find a country to take him. Tell us more because the more we hear about Edward Snowden, fugitive from the butthurt U.S. government, the less we have to grapple with what Snowden's leaked documents actually reveal about the U.S. surveillance state.

http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2013/07/random-thoughts-on-nsa-secrets-and.html

[HipChick]

6. The path he choose..he choose to make it about him, not his message..

[frylock]

8. you can tell by all the incessant posts he makes about himself here..

you know, Edward snowden? constantly making himself the center of attention by posting thread after thread about himself here, like this one, for instance:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023154361

[LittleBlue]

19. It's bordering on derangement

Getting creepier by the day

[HipChick]

20. I believe that's why they invented

the ignore function...

I don't know why more people don't use it..

[LittleBlue]

21. I've used it more on this Snowden affair

Than all my previous time on DU.

[frylock]

29. no doubt. check this..

I mean, fuck diplomacy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3155273

[treestar]

9. They obviously did not reveal anything more interesting

than Snowden's flights and hanging out in airports.

[frazzled]

11. We might have been talking about the documents, if he had stayed to plead his case

But he made it about himself by turning tail and running off to Hong Kong and Russia, hiding in hotel rooms, safe houses, and airport transit areas ... dealing with Wikileaks shenanigans and falling into the arms of foreign ... well, not best friends.

Really, you have no one to blame but Snowden for the fact that the documents are not being discussed.

PS: The other reason it's about Snowden is that his original stated motivation, to protect the privacy rights of Americans, was over after the first day or two. It ended when the secrets he decided to divulge were clearly aimed at harming American intelligence operations abroad and to incite hypocritical anti-American sentiment. These foreign policy intrigues, about which he clearly knows nothing, have not a thing to do with those original "lofty" goals.

[HipChick]

12. This is what I don't understand..

He lost me when he started handing things off abroad..

[sabrina 1]

15. Yeah, sure our Corporate puppet media would be talking about the documents, same way

they did when Manning was arrested and Drake who abided by all the rules the goal post movers claimed was the 'way to go' if you 'wanted to be treated justly'. And all that 'talk about the documents' when Binney was the target.

I could go on, but seriously, that is a very funny statement.

Oh and we are talking about the documents, despite the attempts to prevent that. All over the world that is what people are talking about. The Documents.

[frazzled]

18. You do understand the difference between a military court-martial

and a civilian trial, don't you?

Besides, the last way to get attention for your topic is to run off to China and Russia.

[sabrina 1]

23. I understand the law. Domestic, military and International law. All of which forbid torture.

Chinese dissidents run here. Cuban dissidents run here. They got a lot of attention for their topics. Too bad we spied on the Chinese dissident we gave safe haven to though.

Military court martials are supposed to be fair and just and open when the charges are as serious as these are.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'you do understand the difference between a military court martial and a civilian trial'. Both require justice, neither permits torture. Are you saying that a military Court Martial is naturally unjust? If so, I probably agree that this is the reality, but it is NOT how it is supposed to be.

[stevenleser]

37. Snowdens defenders dont seem to understand much about either situation. Lets make a list

Note the "YOU" below is generically applied to the defenders of Manning and Snowden and those who believe the NSA issue is a big scandal and indicative of horrible things being done (i.e. spying on regular Americans).

1. Manning was military. You don't seem to understand that.
2. Folks in the military are subject to military justice. You don't seem to understand that.
3. Military justice is much harsher and less forgiving than civilian justice in a number of ways (the idea of parole in the military, for instance, is to let you out after serving 19 years and six months of your 20 year sentence. The military can force you to perform physical training, hard labor and can force your to do all kinds of other things both in pretrial detention and after sentencing). You don't seem to understand that.
4. Snowden isn't military, you don't seem to understand that.
5. Snowden would be subject to the civilian justice system, not the military justice system to which Manning is subject. You don't seem to understand that.
6. You keep mentioning the fourth amendment in regards to the Snowden situation. Appeals courts have ruled a couple of hundred times that in National Security situations, the 4th amendment doesnt apply. You dont seem to understand that.
7. Before FISA, the fact that the 4th amendment doesnt apply to national security situations meant that warrantless wiretapping was allowed in those situations. You dont seem to understand that.
8. Kennedy and Carter got together and decided to remedy the warrantless wiretapping situation described above by creating FISA. In other words, they both understood that warrantless wiretapping was legal in national security situations and that situation needed remedying. You dont seem to understand that.
9. George W. Bush went away from using FISA and illegally went back to warrantless wiretapping. You dont seem to understand that.
10. When Obama campaigned, he promised to go back to using FISA. You dont seem to understand that.
11. Obama going back to using FISA like he has is him fulfilling that campaign promise. You dont seem to understand that.
12. Whistleblowers have options available to them that both protects them and ensures their issues are addressed. Neither Snowden nor Manning utilized those options. Ellsberg did. You dont seem to understand that.
13. Both Snowden and Manning decided to overwhelm any good they might have been able to do by releasing tens of thousands of times of non-relevan information (but damaging to the US) to all kinds of sources. You dont seem to understand that.
14. Very little of the domestic spying revelations flying around here has been proven. The President, who fulfilled his promise to go back to using FISA and is therefore credible on this, as far as I am concerned, explained what the situation was and that differs greatly from the wild and unsupported accusations of domestic spying. You dont seem to understand that.

All of that is just for starters.

[KharmaTrain]

39. Snowden's Hurt His Cause...

...and others. He should have run to a Senator Sanders or Wyden and helped really expose any abuses he may have encountered rather than playing in a bad 60'ish cold war cheap spy novel. He went from whistleblower to horn tooter and with it created a major distraction from having any real positive effect in bringing change to the growing surveillance state that has developed. Instead of testifying in front of a national/international audience and being able to give credence to his charges he's turned public opinion against him and with it, put this issue in a poor light. By playing the same martyr game as Assange, and trying to find common cause, both have diminished their legitimacies as they attempt to create an "international incident" with them in the center.

Those who have this romantic notion of Snowden as some great hero tend to have other agendas in play...a contempt for not just this administration but for the entire democratic process. They're sure that Snowden will be tortured or "disappeared" when it's all but assured that if he did return to face charges his case would be high profile here and all over the innertoobs. Facing charges in a federal, not military court, he'd be able to get the best representation possible (surely some high quality lawyer who shares Snowden's concerns would take the case pro-bono) and there would be continuous news coverage on the cables. But as long as he runs and his credibility further unravels he diminishes any positive effect in forcing Congress to revisit the FISA and Patriot acts that underly the government's expanded ability to look into our lives. There was a golden moment...as there always is...in situations like these...his went by the wayside the moment he boarded the plane for Hong Kong...

Cheers...

[randome]

40. Damn. That's impressive.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[dionysus]

27. nailed it.

[hrmjustin]

10. I will be the first to say I do not like or trust Snowden but some of my friends on DU do and...

...I respect their thoughts on this.

[HipChick]

38. Yup!

[CakeGrrl]

13. But the U.S. is scared of him, don't ya know?

Not.

That's why he's running.

[sabrina 1]

16. That's why they are chasing him. He's seeking asylum elsewhere because after the treatment of

other Whistle Blowers in this country, that is the only way for Whistle Blowers from now on. How embarrassing, as Crowley pointed out, the torture of Manning was for this country, it will have lasting effects on what every Democracy needs, Whistle Blowers who from now on will most likely do what Snowden has done.

[HipChick]

22. He stopped being a whistleblower

after he ran off to Hong Kong with 4 govt laptop

[sabrina 1]

25. He is a Whistle Blower from a country where Whistle Blowers are tortured and persecuted

and where it is known they cannot receive fair trials. A country that has a policy of 'indefinite detention, and of torture, and of years of detention without charges or trials. We really have no credibility anywhere anymore.

Because we failed to hold the REAL traitors and criminals accountable. That's why we elected Democrats in 2008, to end the crimes and to hold the criminals accountable. What happened?

When will the War Criminals and the Wall St. Criminals be pursued, apprehended and prosecuted for the incalculable harm they have done to this country?

When the US begins to restore the rule of law, there won't be too many Whistle Blowers.

[HipChick]

26. Spare me..

He fled like the coward that he is

[sabrina 1]

31. It really bothers you that a majority of people in the world, view him as a hero I guess. Sorry

about that, but that's how it is. The US blew its credibility long ago when it refused to prosecute War Criminals and Wall St criminals, making it clear that isn't just Bush as the world was hoping, it is established now that we are talking about US Policy and now that this is clear, something other than what we did as a solution, which clearly didn't work, will have to be done to end these ongoing Bush policies.

Meantime, until the US begins to restore the Rule of Law, people like Snowden will be be regarded as heroes.

[dionysus]

28. what kind of fantasy land do you live in?

if you think manning was tortured, you have no goddamn clue what real fascist regimes do.

you'd probably think keeping D-day secret was dirty pool... and lying to everyone while we were doing it...

[sabrina 1]

30. Manning was tortured. What fantasy world do you live in that you haven't heard the testimony

of those whose opinions on these issue, actually matter? Not to mention Manning's own testimony, especially the part when he was fist apprehended. You probably agree with Dick Cheney, who btw also laughs at the idea of Manning being tortured, that 'water-boarding is not torture' and that his torture policies are legal? Is that the case because I like to know who I am discussing these issues with, it's hard to tell these days.

[dionysus]

32. oh yes, i'm totally with cheney.. manning being arrested for crimes he plead guilty to...

(10 was it?)

they waterboarded him, and pulled out his fingernails, flayed him... oh wait, no they didn't.
that cheney shit is stale, you should read counterpunch or wsws to get a better failphrase to use....

[sabrina 1]

33. Cheney supports sleep deprivation, humiliation, isolation, all of which Manning was subjected to and

more. He like you, doesn't believe any of this is 'torture'. Sorry to break it to you, but your dismissal of what happened to Manning now not even disputed by the US Government, puts you in agreement with Cheney. It's okay though, because Cheney also agrees with the Domestic Surveillance programs recently exposed by Snowden and has praised, along with Fleischer and King and Boehner the Obama administration for 'keeping Bush's policies'. Of course he is happy, it validates his claims when Democrats continue to use his policies, that he is not a war criminal.

Manning was tortured. Maybe you wouldn't find yourself in agreement with Cheney if you actually read the testimony at Manning's trial. Or then again, maybe you actually do not view what happened to him as torture. I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt in situations like this. It's not acceptable to me that Democrats would deny the torture of Manning and so I assume you are not aware of the details of his treatment.

[UTUSN]

17. am surprised n.korea hasn.t jumped in. extra needy and passive aggressive. nt

[Rowdyboy]

34. It was so close to Hong Kong too! Its a natural.

But the melodrama is far from over!

[UTUSN]

35. whew. glad we.re peaceful on this divisive issue.

[HipChick]

36. It is a drama at this point