Pres Morales: "NO You can NOT inspect my aircraft!" Emergency UNASUR meeting. Hague Tribunal?

[Catherina]

Last edited Wed Jul 3, 2013, 08:17 AM - Edit history (4)

Previous thread: Bolivian President Morales' plane rerouted, forced to land in Austria on suspicion Snowden on board



These are all recent tweets from the President of Argentina, Cristina Kirchner, (CFK) within the last 45 minutes.

-- President Correa called her, extremely angry, and said: "Cristina. They detained Evo's plane, they won't let him leave Europe." ("Cristina. Lo han detenido a Evo con su avión, y no lo dejan salir de Europa".)

-- President Correa told her that he was going to make an urgent call to President Ollanta Humala for the urgent UNASUR meeting.

-- President Morales called her from a small lounge in the airport. He said that "Several countries revoked our flight permission and I'm in Vienna,"

-- CFK: If Austria won't let his plane depart or wants to EXAMINE it, they can take this to the Hague. President Morales has common law absolute immunity, according to the 2004 Conventions and the Hague Tribunal according to their legal experts in international law.

--Morales (told her): "I will not allow them to inspect my plane. I am not a thief"( "Y no voy a permitir que revisen mi avión. No soy un ladrón". )

-- CFK: Definitely they're all crazy. A Head of State and his plane has total immunity.There can not be this degree of impunity.

- It's 3AM in Austria. CFK is going to try to reach authorities there.

-- She spoke with President Mujica. He's furious at the violation of President Morales' immunity.

https://twitter.com/cfkargentina (In Spanish)

Snowden's life is in extreme danger. Remember what another whisteblower said?

Asked what Edward Snowden should expect to happen to him, William Binney, answered, "first tortured, then maybe even rendered and tortured and then incarcerated and then tried and incarcerated or even executed." Interesting that this is what a whistleblower, former Senior level Director at NSA, thinks the U.S. government will do to a citizen.

MR. PRESIDENT: HANDS OFF EDWARD SNOWDEN Petition. It's the LEAST we can do.

Peter Hinton ‏@peterjhinton 2m

The #NSA just can't work out what #snowden's next move is going to be. I guess 300 million intercepts a day isn't enough!

[Marrah_G]

1. I can't believe Europe is fucking playing along with this bullshit.

[sibelian]

4. Hnk! Why not?

They don't want bombed, thanks.

[Marrah_G]

17. Good point

[HardTimes99]

42. Or bugged - nt

[JimDandy]

179. The U.S. was already bugging them...

spy-wise.

Now they're doing it to them physically/mentally.

So much for this administration's international diplomacy and John Kerry as our Secretary of State. What idiocy to make a mess of international diplomacy on so many continents at the same time.

[kenny blankenship]

25. A continent of skeletons rattling in the closet.

Just think of Emperor Bunga-Bunga the First.


Silvio Berlusconi investigated in teenage prostitution case

Italian prime minister also suspected of abusing position by putting pressure on police
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/14/berlusconi-investigated-teenage-prostitution-case

And that's behavior that's more or less out in the open. What we have to appreciate now is this: Everyone, everywhere with something embarrassing in their past MUST ASSUME AT THIS POINT that the government of the United States KNOWS ALL ABOUT IT. Or that it could find out easily, if it had a reason to target them - like for instance if the US was unhappy about how a country did not cooperate with them in retrieving Ed Snowden.

Now I'm not saying that anybody on this board is like that and has salacious stories lurking in their past, just waiting to be dug up and revealed to an outraged press. We are all far too clean and moral a group to stumble into in such a morally compromised position! No, of COURSE, I wouldn't be suggesting that about the DU community. But there are many people in the world of regrettably lower standards, who are potentially blackmailable. Many people for instance who attain leadership positions in the worlds of industry, finance and politics -even the military- have their juicy secrets -sexual hangups, dirty financial dealings, bribetaking, political betrayals - that they would do practically anything to keep hidden away.

And right now, the skeletons are rattling all across Europe, indeed across the whole world. The sound is deafening.

[Voice for Peace]

32. EW! EW EW EW!!!!

that face is going to give me super creepy
nightmares.

[HardTimes99]

46. Masterpiece - should be its own OP! - nt

[Azathoth]

170. Win

[sibelian]

243. Ugh.

HIM.

[Eleanors38]

260. The Zombie Apocalypse is true!.

[felix_numinous]

264. Exposure embarrasses the intelligence community

Besides being punked by a punk (young rookie) they apparently lost a lot of bargaining chips to threaten people with... A lot of people are spitting mad over this.

Good Point!

[Catherina]

78. No need for jets to be scrambled when no-fly zones have been put in place n/t

[rbixby]

251. Here's my take on it

Snowden did what he thought was right and released all this stuff (and it deserved to see the light of day), and I'd consider it an act of civil disobedience. Just unfortunately, this act of civil disobedience is a very, very serious crime. If they don't go after him, then what sort of precedent does it set?

I think he'd be smart to just post everything he's got online (if his goal is to shed the light of day on all this) and then come and say "Slap the cuffs on me, I did the world a favor". All of this stuff that's keeping him in the headlines is about his ego, nothing more.

[A Simple Game]

284. Sounds like what Manning did, how did that work out for him? n/t

[sulphurdunn]

313. He would disappear

into the bowels of a black site or super max prison without access to legal assistance. He would be made to suffer. The man who came out to face a kangaroo court would bear scant resemblance to the one who went in. That's the new America for enemies of the state.

[alittlelark]

2. W O W.....

[Purveyor]

3. Thank you for posting. I'll pass this along, indeed. eom +1

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. ROFL

What a farce.

[Romulus Quirinus]

10. Why don't you go find a kid to push in the dirt, eh? nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

15. The what now?

You're upset about something?

[Romulus Quirinus]

19. No man, I'm just too busy hating you for your freedoms. nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

24. Oh

OK.

I guess.

I have no idea what you're talking about, but I'm glad you're able to amuse yourself.

[Romulus Quirinus]

26. It's cool, keep on going!

You're winning hearts and minds left and right!

[alcibiades_mystery]

29. Is that the goal?

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. Oh, my

I'm glad I'm taking lessons from an expert in winning hearts and minds. I'll have an extra helping of homophobia with my latte, if you please.

[Luminous Animal]

45. I do believe he is referring to a caffeine high colonic. Look it up.

[jberryhill]

49. The hazards of the edit function

I believe the poster is making a point about "anal rape" and "great liberal minds". IMHO "great liberals minds" can accommodate a wider range of opinions than narrow minds, but that's just me.

[Romulus Quirinus]

93. When I said "great liberal minds"

I was being sarcastic.

Using tags is for terrorists with no panache.

[alcibiades_mystery]

52. Apparently the post was about anal rape

Quoth my new friend: &quot Also, anal rape in no way implies homosexuality, but I presume a great liberal mind like yours already knew that)"...and that was on edit, so involved some reflection!

Oh, Lord, for your everyday, run-of-the-mill caffeine colonics.

[Luminous Animal]

65. "Oh, Lord, for your everyday, run-of-the-mill caffeine colonics."

Giggling out loud.

[Romulus Quirinus]

98. Hey, detaining heads of state just-because in no way resembles

out and out abuse of a vast power imbalance. The only people who side with those silly so-and-sos in South America (who were they again?) are probably unreasonable extremists anyway.

And everyone knows those people are hilar-i-ous!

[Skittles]

180. STOP IT ROMULUS

[In_The_Wind]

282. Really !

[sabrina 1]

110. And it is this arrogant attitude that forced the South American Nations to form their own version

NATO to protect all of their nations from the oppressive support for Dictators they endured from the West over the past several decades. They understood that one nation exercising their sovereign rights would not be able to defend themselves from returning to those dark days of the School of the Americas and have taken the precaution of uniting as a continent to offset exactly this kind of hubris and disrespect for their sovereignty.

I suppose if you haven't been following events in S. America you still think the US has some clout in that region of the world. But the insult to one of their allies is now likely to result in a unified effort to oppose the chilling return to the past that this is a reminder of.

We are NOT the king of the world. Evo Morales is a highly respected leader of a sovereign nation and this insult is unacceptable, and has proven that Snowden has every reason to seek asylum and he just may get it, not from just one country in S.A. but from the Alliance itself.

[Romulus Quirinus]

113. Pretty much exactly this.

It's like all history south of Texas never happened for some people.

[alcibiades_mystery]

114. TL;DR

[Romulus Quirinus]

121. Good jorb using old 4chan memes.

totally rad!

[alcibiades_mystery]

127. Oh, I do 70's shit, too...

How we do, son.

some buck that I roughed up way back...



Stop stalkin', weirdo.

[Romulus Quirinus]

130. I'm sorry I'm infringing on your Constitutional right to be obnoxious on the internet.

Lots of them rights getin infringed on these days, eh?

[alcibiades_mystery]

131. ROFL

My biggest fan...

[Romulus Quirinus]

133. Stop

HAMMERTIME

[sabrina 1]

140. And old, outdated and ineffective.

[sabrina 1]

125. Oboviously,'where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise'

[alcibiades_mystery]

128. Mmmmwahhhh

You're sweet.

[sabrina 1]

135. So I'm told, frequently!

[upi402]

137. Sad

that this is such a good point.
Sad that we have done this to our great nation.

[Swagman]

306. it is a diplomatic balls-up bred from the arrogance of ultimate power

but hey..Snowden broke the law and that's all that matters.
that and those boxes in the garage.

[grasswire]

6. Oboy.

Hollywood couldn't write this stuff.

Snowden obviously has something that frightens them enough to create an international incident.

[Cleita]

18. No kidding. n/t

[struggle4progress]

7. If that's really what happened, I agree it's beyond the pale

[Renew Deal]

63. I agree

I've never heard of such a thing.

Makes you wonder if Snowden is considered and enemy of the US. If that's the case, Obama will feel the need to do "anything" to protect the country.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

8. The totalitarians are pissed and the mask is slipping

Thanks for sharing

[Maximumnegro]

50. LOL France and Portugal

are totalitarian enablers, but Austria isn't. If Snowden IS on the plane he will have been aided by China, Russia, and Austra.

That's hilarious.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

81. Nope. Just the security state of the U.S. are the totalitarians with enough power to make most bend

That's a fact.

[Maximumnegro]

88. That's a FACT?!

You are going to be the source of endless entertainment I see.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

92. Yep.

[Romulus Quirinus]

95. Dude, he rolling smilied you. That's like an insta win. nt

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

99. lol

yeah, their amazing smilies skill is very convincing, and intimidating, right

[sibelian]

169. Every time one of them punts one out my self-confidence withers a tiny bit.

I am now a mere shell of my former self. Isn't it sad?

[aquart]

287. Oh, good grief.

Simplistic much? What juvenile drivel.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

288. Simplistic much? What juvenile drivel.

[aquart]

289. Oh, now we're doing the playground repeating game.

Sure sign of maturity. If you're five.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

290. Just holding up a mirror

If u don't like the reflection, try not being so juvenile.

[LittleBlue]

9. Unreal

This is like one of those movies where some world leader goes berserk on a power mad rampage.

[MADem]

12. So, who's the "power mad rampaging world leader?" nt

[wtmusic]

23. You voted for him.

He's pulling strings and half the world is at his beck and call.

Warm, fuzzy feeling...idn't it?

[MADem]

33. You are quite sure Pootie Poot isn't having a laugh?

[wtmusic]

51. I'm quite sure Pootie Poot is shitting his pants

because his foreign policy is blowing up in his face.

[bahrbearian]

55. I'm sure quite sure he is , he is playing us like a fiddle.

[Renew Deal]

57. Did you vote for Obama?

[wtmusic]

66. Yes

[Renew Deal]

69. Then I'm confused about your post

Is MAdem a Russian? I knew it!

[wtmusic]

86. We all voted for him

and right now I'm disillusioned as hell.

I've already had one post deleted tonight so I won't repeat what I really think.

[MADem]

192. ......

Здравствуйте, товарищ!!!!

[7962]

293. Snowdon is NOT a hero. Heros dont run to the opposition.

Publicity seeker and law breaker. Boom.

[carla]

302. Sorry,

but your opinion is only that. Mr. Edward Snowden is more of a hero and patriot than many who post here in defense of the indefensible violations of our rights. "Boom"...

[itsrobert]

11. Probably smuggling cocaine, Rush Limbaugh looking for underage prostitutes, and Snowjob

bust 'em up.

[NoodleyAppendage]

13. So, apparently the NSA's zeal in maintaining their power trumps foreign leaders' freedom?

Why do I get that sinking feeling that I am currently living in Germany circa 1932.

[Cleita]

20. A year or two later, actually. n/t

[wtmusic]

21. Hoho! Godwin's Law!

Something like that could never happen again.

Now relax. You don't want to end up like Ed, do you?

[Romulus Quirinus]

54. I feel that Godwin's Law is kind of like the Pirate Code.

Last edited Wed Jul 3, 2013, 12:35 PM - Edit history (1)

It's more of a set of guidelines, really.

[reusrename]

225. ha!

[jberryhill]

56. His freedom to override air traffic control of other countries?

He's not being held hostage, and no one is boarding his plane without his permission. But other countries do get, as a benefit of sovereignty, the ability to determine which aircraft are allowed to fly over it.

Oddly on US flights over Cuba, there is no longer an announcement to passengers to refrain from taking pictures.

[wtmusic]

60. Yes, he is indeed being held hostage.

Please.

You think the technicality of revoking flight permission obscures the machinations behind it?

[sabrina 1]

119. Then we won't mind if our President's plane is rerouted when flying over South America on suspicion

that some drug dealer who is an ally of the US but wanted in SA is on board being flown out of the area to safety in the US?

I can only imagine the outrage of those dismissing this as nothing. 'But, we are DIFFERENT, we are not some third world nation filled with brown people'!

[jberryhill]

123. Indeed it can be

Air Force One has no right to fly over a country which does not allow it to do so.

[sabrina 1]

134. Morales had a right to fly over Europe. We're not talking about 'not having a right to fly' we are

talking about that right being violated. Big difference. And when our President has a right to fly over certain countries but has his plane rerouted because of a paranoid suspicion of harboring a wanted whistle blower, we will be as dismissive of such an incident as we are now of the sovereign right of Morales not to have his presidential plane searched like a common criminal, violating the immunity he enjoys as the head of a sovereign state.

The end result however, is likely to be the opposite of what was intended. This is not the S.A. of the Reagan years when the US backed coups of democratically elected leaders and installed dictators to do their bidding. We have no clout in S. A. now, being there are no dictators for us to deal with. Just democratically elected leaders who will not sell their countries to the highest Global Corporate bidders.

[jberryhill]

138. You can't just recognize sovereignty when it is convenient

I agree that any country can deny AF1 an overflight. Any country. It comes with "being a country".

You know what else comes with sovereignty? The right to control who can stay in your embassy.

Territorial sovereignty is keeping Assange out of jail right now, so you don't really want to toss that aside.

[sabrina 1]

142. Like I said, Morales has a right to fly where he was flying. This was an outrageous insult to the

elected leader of a Sovereign nation and the consequences are likely to be very different from what was is expected. S. American has emerged from the oppressive thumb of our past leaders, Reagan comes to mind, and their Dictator puppets. But we have been so busy oppressing people in the ME we lost control of our former 'dictatorships'. I guess you have to understand 'old habits die hard'. It's tough being a Colonial Empire.

It's all good, when our President's plane is diverted on some paranoid suspicion of something, I am sure we will not see it as an 'act of war'. I can't wait for the hypocrisy to show its ugly face as always.

And btw, it would be a violation of our president's right to immunity should such a thing happen.

Morales HAS immunity, just fyi, and someone needs to explain how it came to be violated in this manner. Just so you understand, immunity is generally so inviolate that actual criminals cannot be prosecuted while in an area where this immunity applies.

Each time we break down these structures, we help to create a more lawless world, that is apparently going to our legacy from this period in our history. We are becoming a rogue state, with a lot of heavy duty WMDs, our claim to power at this point, having lost almost all moral authority.

[treestar]

199. Morales does not have a "right" to fly over anywhere

other than perhaps Bolivia. Neither does Obama.

[sabrina 1]

247. Morales, as the leader of a sovereign state, just like American citizens btw, has the right not to

be detained without a warrant, just as Obama does. Both have immunity which was violated in this case. To do something like this is generally considered to be an act of war.

No one has any rights anymore, you are correct. And that is the problem now spreading openly across the globe.

I hope we are as accepting of this kind of arrogant behavior when it happens to us. But looking at the hypocrisy we see on a regular basis, I know exactly what the reaction would be if Bolivia were to this to an American elected official.

[treestar]

249. Each sovereign state has the right to do as it pleases

You seem not to get that. If you go into say Saudi Arabia, you have no right to a hearing on anything the government might accuse you of. You have no right to set foot in any foreign country without their permission, whether you agree with their reasons or not.

No country has to let Morales do anything, other than Bolivia. We don't have to allow him to visit the United States were he to want to. We probably would, but don't have to. Russia never had to let Morales go there in the first place. No country he flies over has to let him unless they want to.

This also goes for Obama. Who, to your dismay, is welcome in every country except maybe NK or Cuba.

[A Simple Game]

295. I think most countries would let President Obama come if he wants to.

But right now I'm not so sure your list of who wouldn't welcome him is complete.

Do you think Austria had a right to search Morales' plane? How about an embassy?

Snowden doesn't seem to be harming the US much with his revelations, really he has revealed nothing the world didn't already know, but President Obama is allowing the US to do much harm to itself by how it is treating the rest of the world because of his obsession with Snowden.

All President Obama had to do was offer immunity and say to Snowden come on in and we will discuss all of this. It would have been all over by now.

[Swagman]

308. you are wrong

[treestar]

312. No, I'm not wrong

Where do you get the idea each country does not control its airspace, at least up to some height?

[wtmusic]

14. Well...that moves the stakes up a notch. nt

[roamer65]

16. Are we sure we really want to open this can of worms?

Violating diplomatic immunity is NOT a good idea.

That is the stuff that wars are made of...

[Fire Walk With Me]

22. The surveillance state must be smashed. It is out of control. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. This could be interpreted as an act of war

ooohhhh boooyyyy

But hey, it's all good... it is good Western Powers doing this.

[wtmusic]

36. It could.

Our second illegal war in a decade. What a fucking country this is.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

96. not to mention the hacking into the worlds communication systems to spy

[Savannahmann]

28. If I had started reading a book, and this was the first chapter

I would have tossed it aside never to finish reading the novel. I can't believe it. Diplomatic privilege out the window. International treaties shat upon. It is beyond anything I have ever imagined. What in the name of God does Snowden know?

I've long considered our nation a somewhat gentle bully, arrogant and egotistical. But I never imagined a situation where we would twist arms to the point of other nations committing outright acts of war. Safety of flight violations, insults to elected heads of State of a nature guaranteed to inflame an entire continent. Venezuela is already backing Bolivia. Expect Chilie and Argentina to get into the act.

I thought the bad old days of Yankee go home were long gone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. This will be ugly

[LovingA2andMI]

91. Down Right U-gilly

Why is the USA so afraid of Snowden and why would they stop a President from another country plane from taking off? Corporate Masters at play here or what?

[Mojorabbit]

70. It is surreal isn't it?

He must have some very inconvenient information. I have never seen anything like this in my life

[JimDandy]

185. It's past surreal and into other dimensional. n/t

[Poll_Blind]

82. You got that right. Fiction has to be plausible. Reality has no such restrictions, apparently! nt

PB

[reusrename]

230. Why doesn't Snowden just come back home to his loving Uncle Sam?

Why is he being so disruptive? It's disgraceful behavior. Look at what he made Obama do!

[sibelian]

244. He's a scoundrel. Poor, humble, gentle, strong Obama.

You know, I think if he just came clean and fessed up about how this is REALLY all about how he had to make himself feel all important and stuff to cover up his deep, secret shame about dumping that poor, innocent ballerina and made a clean breast of things and put all the stuff he stole back where it belongs and said he was very very VERY sorry to all those poor security professionals who just have to do their job and want nothing more than for him to just stand up and be a man and take his chance to participate once more as an honest citizen in the greatest country the world has ever known and just GET OVER HIMSELF Obama would welcome him home with a wry smile and WORDS OF WISDOM and FORGIVENESS and TOUGH LOVE.

And after jail and things, there could be a book deal.

[reusrename]

315. I guess they could get a ghost writer to do a book.

After a chemical lobotomy he probably won't be able to spell anything.

[JEB]

30. What, exactly, are the PTB so desperate to hide? It must be pretty bad.

[Tx4obama]

31. Bravo Austria !!! Let Morales fly out on a different plane, if Snowden is on that grounded plane...

... he'll eventually come out when he gets hungry enough or starts going nuts from being offline too long

[frylock]

43. and if snowden isn't on that plane?

[LovingA2andMI]

94. Good Question

Also because I believe in Snowden reveal and have voiced such, I wonder if this why a post was blocked in the middle of the night... some days prior? IDK

[HardTimes99]

72. So much for the Peace of Westphalia (1648). Next stop: the Magna Carta - nt

[wtmusic]

80. I think we've overflown the Magna Carta and Hammurabi's Code

and are in final approach for 100BC Rome

[HardTimes99]

90. LOL - Nero or Caligula? Can't keep my Roman douchebags straight! - nt

[wtmusic]

118. I was thinking Caesar, but if diverted we could land at either of the others.

[bvar22]

267. The NDAA did away with the Magna Carta.

Our President NOW claims the power to immediately execute anyone, in any country in the World, anywhere, at any time
without due process or oversight,
on the "suspicion" of being a terrorists or a terrorist supporter.

SEE: Bush Doctrine for the definition of a "terrorist".

[TheJames]

311. Yes, I noticed that, too. N/T

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

106. cue the totalitarian cheerleaders

[Mojorabbit]

143. You are not doing the President any favors with this type of post. nt

[totodeinhere]

147. What about international law? The president's plane has absolute immunity.

Are you advocating that international law be violated in order to search that plane? Is that what this has come to? I can't believe that a poster on DU would suggest something like that.

[TheMadMonk]

155. Really? The USA has already intimidated one country into...

...risking a diplomatic incident and another into an actual violation of the diplomatic immunity of a sovereign head of state and you think it can be made all copacetic by offering him a different ride?

What this particular little sub-plot may well be telling us, it that the NSA program is working wonderfully. It seems the USA has the dirt, and it WILL use it to have it's way in the world if the world won't give the USA what it wants voluntarily.

[JimDandy]

187. Is that you, John Kerry?

[reusrename]

231. Why not a drone strike?

Wouldn't that be awesome?

I know it rules out the opportunity for some real good torture fun, but doesn't a drone strike sound cool?

[pa28]

34. They've finally taken down the scenery and pulled the curtains back.

The truth is getting ugly but at least we can see it now.

[flamingdem]

35. We'll probably find out tomorrow what happened

For all we know Putin played a game to test the alliances.

He's the only one who would have certain knowledge of Snowden's location.

A rumor from him would have set off a lot of alarm.

The question is who started the rumor and why and how it was interpreted
by the countries that blocked refueling.

You can see looking over the last two days of reports that the media was
tantalizing with the tale that maybe Venezuela maybe Bolivia would grant
asylum and that the planes were there to do the deed.

Some articles were more honest and stated that they hadn't even received
an formal request from Snowden.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

108. We are spying on all communications no telling who the source was n/t

[Recursion]

38. Trying to inspect a head of state's plane is an absolute non starter

OTOH, he can't force Austria to let him fly it out, either. Stalemate?

[HardTimes99]

40. Holy Shit! - nt

[Firebrand Gary]

44. What in the hell is he about to expose? This is getting intense.

I've got to admit, now I'm curious as to what has so many people spooked?

[TheMadMonk]

162. Perhaps THE DIRT! Think MKULTRA, Tuskegee, etc all rolled into one big scandal.

I'm seriously starting to think that not a single one (or very few) of the "reveals" of US malfeasance (internal and external) since the failed Bush Coup of the thirties ever made anything go away, they just got quietly buried in the black budget and were continued with no accountability whatsoever.

[Catherina]

47. ambassador for Spain in Austria has just informed that there is no authorization to fly over Spanish

Bolivian Vice President Alvaro Garcia has delivered a midnight press conference on the incident, AP reports.

He described Morales as being "kidnapped by imperialism" in Europe and said that the Spanish authorities were not allowing Morales' plane to enter their airspace.

"The ambassador for Spain in Austria has just informed us that there is no authorization to fly over Spanish territory and that at 9 a.m. Wednesday they would be in contact with us again"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live

[HooptieWagon]

53. Damn.

Whatever Snowden knows is worth starting a war over. He must have some really damaging info on Obama's illegal intelligence machine.

[Cleita]

64. Let's hope it's not Obama but Bush/Cheney.

There I don't mind the scab being pulled off. I don't blame Obama for what he inherited and felt he had to cover up.

[totodeinhere]

148. Rather than that lets hope for the truth no matter who is implicated. n/t

[TheMadMonk]

171. I do. He promised transparancy, and failed to deliver.

Moreover, I no longer believe he ever had any intention of delivering on that promise or any other.

Once upon a time I was willing to believe he was just one more dad buckling when his kids were threatened. IF they were threatened at all, it was when he was selected to play the part, not once he got it.

Today, I strongly suspect, that he's a manufactured entity, a sock puppet for the 1%, outwardly kinder, gentler, more erudite than Junior, but a sock puppet nonetheless.

[Renew Deal]

67. Or he is a threat to he US in general.

[wtmusic]

71. The U.S. government has created this threat and they're making it bigger. nt

[Renew Deal]

77. Not sure what you mean.

You could mean that this is part of covering up or protecting the surveillance state or you could mean the US has pumped Snowden, or even something else.

[wtmusic]

97. You can draw a solid black line from when the decision was made to spy

to the mess we find ourselves in right now.

Snowden? He's nothing. Maybe he'll be shot out of the air tomorrow. But it's too late to not know, what we know now. And dealing with it this way makes it 1000x worse.

[totodeinhere]

150. Snowden has made provisions for the possibility that something might

happen to him. Whatever it is it will get out one way or the other.

[EX500rider]

269. "worth starting a war over"

I've seen that stated a few times....who exactly would Bolivia declare war on?

NATO members Spain, Portugal or France (a Nuclear power) ?

The Bolivian Army has around 55,500 men and apparently has 55 tanks, the Air Force has zero modern fighters or bombers and no refueling tankers...Navy wise Bolivia is landlocked although there is a Bolivian Naval presence on Lake Titicaca. (really)

[HooptieWagon]

275. Forcing down a head of state's plane for inspection is an act of war.

So it was the US that opened that can of worms. How Bolivia and SA responds remains to be seen. Obviously they aren't going to invade or attack the US. However, very possible they seize US assets in South America.

[EX500rider]

277. Except no ones plane was forced down.

Refusing transit rights is not forcing down a plane...that happens when you send up fighters to make it land. His plane just turned and went to another country.

[HooptieWagon]

279. Newsflash: Planes can't stay in the air indefinitely.

Refusing overflight or refueling is the same as forcing it down with fighters. Combine that with demands to inspect the plane, and its a gross violation of sovereignty and diplomatic immunity. Sure makes Obama look petulant and out of control.

[Iliyah]

58. No wars

but back in 2007 must read

[woo me with science]

59. Holy cripes.

[DesMoinesDem]

61. Wow

[backscatter712]

68. Wow! Holy shit!

Detaining the head of state of a sovereign nation and demanding that his aircraft be inspected is a big fucking deal!

Wars have been declared over less.

[Cleita]

79. No, not if he's a beaner. Trust me. Sovereign heads of State from South America

have traditionally been treated like monkeys by the USA, Canada and the Europeans. They haven't done it blatantly in the last fifty years but if one of the troop gets out of line, they treat them with no respect. Our country is smacking this monkey down. Oh, btw, I'm a beaner.

[LAGC]

136. !

This is not an act of a republic, it is an act of an EMPIRE!

[Catherina]

73. Pres Kirchner "tomorrow is going to be a long and difficult day. Be calm. They will not be able to

Argentinian president Cristina Kirchner has tweeted that she has been advised that Peruvian president Ollanta Humala will call a meeting of the Union of South American Nations to discuss ongoing events.

Kirchner said "tomorrow is going to be a long and difficult day. Be calm. They will not be able to."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3aa0ae4b00d0b2b858879

"will not be able to" what? Inspect? Detain?

[Cleita]

83. I have no faith in Kirchner, sorry.n/t

[davidn3600]

74. Makes you wonder if we're the good guys or the bad guys, doesn't?

[Cleita]

85. Right now we are the bad guys. We always were the scary guys but kinda cool

to the rest of the world. We have graduated to bad and now we really are the enemy. As an American I am scared.

[PufPuf23]

75. I doubt that Snowden is on Morales jet but so what?

The violation of President Morales immunity has been broken on speculation by aggressive powers where a reciprocal response is not feasible and likely any response would be defined terrorism.

Thanks Catherina. Appreciate your energy.

[Recursion]

76. Or, not

Apparently BBC is walking this back?

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

112. ???

[Catherina]

84. "it was an American story that Edward Snowden was on this flight'

"We want to declare very firmly that it was an American story that Edward Snowden was on this flight," said Saavedra at the VIP terminal of Vienna's airport. "This is a plot by the U.S. government to destroy president Morales' image. We say this simply is a lie. And we will confirm this."

...

In Washington, the State Department would not comment directly when asked to speak to the matter and referred the AP to statements on Snowden made at the department's daily briefing. Earlier Tuesday, department spokesman Patrick Ventrell would not discuss how the Obama administration might respond if Snowden left the Moscow airport. "We're not there yet," he said.

...Maduro also defended the former National Security Agency systems analyst.

"Who must protect Snowden? This is the question. This young man of 29 was brave enough to say that we need to protect the world from the American imperial elite, so who should protect him?" Maduro said in response to a question from journalists covering a ceremony to rename a Moscow street after Chavez. "All of mankind, people all over the world must protect him."

...

Patino added that two weeks ago a hidden microphone was found in Ecuador's embassy in London, where Assange is holed up. "We want to find out with precision what the origin of the apparatus is."

...

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/bolivian-leaders-plane-rerouted-snowden-fear

[backscatter712]

87. Live-blogging of this incident by the Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live

Apparently, the latest news is that Snowden is not on Morales' aircraft, and various European nations, with the exception of Spain at the moment, are relenting and allowing Morales' plane to fly through their airspace.

This is a very serious international incident - heads are going to roll for this!

[Catherina]

101. Interesting.... #Hollande denies Bolivian president's plane to fly over

#Hollande denies Bolivian president's plane to fly over diverted over suspicion Snowden onboard

That was just sent out but it's hard to tell

[DeSwiss]

89. K&R

Sorry Catherina. I know you wanted it to work like it was supposed to. So did I. But petitions don't mean much to a guy who ''due processes'' your life in-house, and then says that's the American way.

- Not this American, anyway.....

[Catherina]

116. I don't believe in petitions but in this case, I want my # on the record

I can't believe we dared.

[DeSwiss]

120. Noted.

I shall follow you lead.

- Sometimes symbolic is the only way to go......

[TheMadMonk]

177. I can't believe, I ever gave the US the benefit of the doubt.

MKULTRA, Tuskegee, etc. Truly starting to think these never went away, just got buried deeper in the black budget and continued with less than minimal oversight. (ie. "Do NOT want to know. Just want RESULTS.&quot

THIS may well be the dirt that has the NSA's knickers in a twist, and everybody's balls in a vice. And not just what's been going on internally, but globally.

It's not the spying per se. As everybody keeps telling us, everybody already knows all about that. What it may well be about is the public being made aware of how the results of that spying have been used over the years.

If this is as bad as it's starting to look, revelations of US blackmail could very well have the potential to destabilise governments all around the world.

[Hydra]

265. If you're curious, dig at MKUltra's gravesite

That was the last of the confirmed information...but if you sift carefully there's a whole world of insanity and corruption that went on with barely a pause, and is probably running to this day...

[Spitfire of ATJ]

100. Funny how they feel it's a duty to be anti-social to every socialist.

[Catherina]

102. WikiLeaks attacks Obama's 'thin-skinned vindictiveness' in Snowden row

WikiLeaks WikiLeaksVerified account ‏@wikileaks

Congratulations Obama, Kerry. You may have alienated an entire continent as a result of your thin skinned vindictiveness. #snowden

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/statuses/352219279548100609

[Waiting For Everyman]

103. This is crazy.

Imagine how we'd feel if a country did this to POTUS. You just don't do stuff like this. Something is very wrong about this whole scene, it's like taking out a canon to kill a fly.

[Azathoth]

104. If Snowden turns out to be on that flight, El Presidente is gonna have some splainin' to do

Caught in front of the entire world abusing his diplomatic immunity -- granted to leaders so they can conduct diplomacy on behalf of the citizens of their respective countries -- just to satisfy his personal urge to stick a finger in the eye of the US? Tsk, tsk.

If, on the other hand, Snowden ain't there....

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

115. Yeah, we'll stick him in a cell right next to the whistleblower and teach him a hard lesson, eh?

Edward Snowden is a modern day Paul Revere with a thumb drive full of the news that Tyranny is coming!

[Azathoth]

126. Nah, he's not heading for a cell

But in the future, he won't even be able to check out of a hotel without the staff counting the towels first.

Assuming, of course, Snowden is on the plane.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

132. Yeah, it probably something worse than that even, we've seen the pictures of what they do to people

Just think how many more will be inspired to act now that they know there will be this kinda reaction.

I don't think the authoritarians thought this all the way through.

[totodeinhere]

153. No, President Morales has every right under international law to transport whomever he wants

on his plane. His immunity is absolute and that plane is considered Bolivian territory. The authorities would have no legal right to search that plane without permission.

[Azathoth]

160. Wrong. He doesn't have the "right" to transport people

He has diplomatic inviolability, which is not granted to him by name, but to the sovereign nation of Bolivia for the purposes of conducting its diplomacy and foreign relations. Inviolability is not a license to break other countries' laws. Trying to smuggle stolen goods out of a country in the diplomatic pouch, for example, is a no-no. If you get caught doing it, not only will you create a major diplomatic incident, but other countries might start playing the same kind of letter-of-the-law hardball with you. Like enforcing their own sovereign rights and telling you that you aren't allowed to violate their airspace.

[totodeinhere]

228. Not according to the Bolivians

Bolivia's ambassador to the United Nations in New York said the refusal to let his president's plane cross over European airspace was an act of aggression that should have consequences, AP reports.

Sacha Llorenti told reporters in Geneva on Wednesday that France, Portugal, Spain and Italy "violated international law" when they blocked President Evo Morales' plane that was returning from a trip to Moscow, based on suspicions NSA leaker Edward Snowden might be aboard.

"We interpret this as an aggression" and will ask UN secretary-general Ban Ki-moon to intervene, he said Wednesday.

Llorenti says "the orders came from the United States" but other nations violated the immunity of the president and his plane, putting his life at risk.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3c832e4b0300b24e64d8c

[Azathoth]

266. They can "interpret" this however they like

I'd love to see a decision by an international court which holds that a head of state's inviolability means he can fly over any country he likes whenever he likes.

Loud saber rattling and feigned indignance and complaints to the UN are par for the course.

[reusrename]

233. The idea of political asylum is a noble one.

That's why this would be an appropriate use of Evo Morales' diplomatic immunity.

[Azathoth]

304. Political asylum only applies to refugees

Snowden doesn't come close to meeting the definition of a refugee.

[reusrename]

307. This is staggering denial.

You don't think his actions are political?

That's just completely insane.

[Azathoth]

309. Then international law is suffering from staggering denial

You don't simply get to break the law and then claim refugee status because you say you were motivated by your political opinions.

Snowden's a fugitive, not a refugee. That doesn't prevent another country from sheltering him or granting him asylum, but it ain't the 'honorable idea' of asylum as envisioned under international law.

[reusrename]

310. It's exactly what is envisioned. He is a political refugee.

He EXPOSED CRIMES against Congress and, more than likely, crimes against the American people.

I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept.

It is his duty to do exactly what he did.

[Catherina]

105. listening device found in UK Ecuadoran Embassy in office used for discussions by Patino & Assange

Ecuadorean Foreign Minister Mr Patino on Tuesday announced that his ministry had found a listening device in the Ecuadorean embassy in London.

"We are infiltrated everywhere," he told a press conference in Quito, adding that he would "request explanations" from the country that had installed the microphone.

Mr Patino said the listening device had been found in the office of newly appointed ambassador Juan Falconi Puig during the Foreign Minister's visit to London last month. Published photos show the office was used for discussions between Mr Patino and Mr Assange.

Mr Patino said the Ecuadorean government's internal communications, such as emails, were being obtained “by various means” and handed to the media, including a letter from Mr Snowden to President Correa that was published in the media before it was received by the President. He said he would reveal further details on Wednesday.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/wikileaks-attacks-obamas-thinskinned-vindictiveness-in-snowden-row-20130703-2pbd9.html#ixzz2XxOL8eUC

Greenwald says on MSNBC Snowden's statement sounded like it was "flavored with some person who isn't Edward Snowden."

[Catherina]

246. They will disclose on Wednesday who controls that listening device

In not totally unrelated news, Ecuador's foreign minister Ricardo Patino says Ecuador has found a hidden microphone inside its London embassy, where WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange is living, and it will disclose on Wednesday who controls the device. He described it as "another instance of a loss of ethics at the international level in relations between governments".

Wikileaks linked the bugging to the blockading of Morales's jet, describing it as another instance of "imperial arrogance".



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d41d38e4b03a793030bafd

[HooptieWagon]

276. Either the US or the Brits.

Foreign relations was an anticipated bright spot when Obama was elected. Now it appears he's reached levels below even Bush.

[Catherina]

107. Pic of Morales waiting at airport

[Iliyah]

109. He is friend

ok

[Catherina]

111. Bolivia's VP: "Colonies are no longer in Latin America. They are in Europe and respond to the U.S."

Bolivia's VP: "Colonies are no longer in Latin America. They are in Europe and respond to the U.S."

[Cleita]

117. I like that they are indignant. I hope the nations surrounding Bolivia back them up,

Chile, Argentina, Peru, Paraguay and Brazil.

[Comrade Grumpy]

129. I hope to see united Latin American action in response.

And I hope that Bolivia will invite certain ambassadors in La Paz to take a long vacation back home.

This is really insulting. It could hasten the decline of US influence in the region, so maybe some good will come of it.

[Cleita]

139. The thing is the North Americans are very afraid of a united South America.

It would be very powerful. This is why our country and Canada have always aligned themselves with corrupt dictators and others who can be bought. The indigenous leaders like the late Chavez in Venezuela and now Morales scare the shit out of them.

[Catherina]

122. As for the demand to search the plane, he stressed, “This is blackmail, we are refusing..."

...

“This is a lie, a falsehood. It was generated by the US government,” Bolivian Defense Minister Ruben Saavedra told CNN. “It t is an outrage. It is an abuse. It is a violation of the conventions and agreements of international air transportation.”

Spanish authorities requested permission to search President Morales’ plane as a condition of transiting through the country, but Bolivian officials refused.

“The Spanish ambassador has told us that his country hasn’t yet allowed the flight over its territory,” Defense Ministry head Ruben Saavedra pointed out.

As for the demand to search the plane, he stressed, “This is blackmail, we are refusing these conditions.”

...

“Maduro has called, he is concerned and looking for a legal means to put an end to this detention, hijack, I don’t know what you would call it legally.”

...

“President Morales will leave early Wednesday morning for La Paz,” Austrian ministry spokesman Alexander Schallenberg said. He denied any knowledge of why the plane landed there.

...

http://rt.com/news/bolivian-president-plane-snowden-577/

[Iliyah]

124. WOW the frist amendent huh?

[Catherina]

141. Ecuador, Venezuela, Snowden and Assange Targeted by Mysterious Hacker

Bear in mind that Snowden was a hacker for the NSA. Stuxnet comes to mind with this story.


Snowden and Assange Targeted by Mysterious Hacker "The Jester"
The "patriot" hacktivist cyberattacked an Ecuadorean stock exchange on Monday. Wait till you hear his plan to flush the WikiLeaks founder out of the country's embassy.

—By Dana Liebelson
| Tue Jul. 2, 2013 3:16 PM PDT

A shadowy, self-described "patriot" hacktivist has launched a series of cyberattacks against Ecuador and says he plans to direct a similar onslaught against any country considering granting asylum to former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden. The hacker, who calls himself the "th3J35t3r" (the Jester) and in the past has identified himself as a former soldier, has also taken aim at Julian Assange. The WikiLeaks founder has been assisting Snowden in his efforts to seek safe haven.

On Monday, the Jester launched denial-of-service attacks against Ecuador, which is considering an asylum request from Snowden. He targeted the primary email server for the second biggest Ecuadorean stock exchange and the country's official tourism website. Gabrielle Murillo, a spokeswoman for Ecuador's tourism site, could not confirm the attack and said only that "the internet was working," but the Electronic Frontier Foundation's Dave Maass, who follows the Jester, told Mother Jones that he was unable to access the tourism website after the infiltration occurred. Officials at the stock exchange did not respond to questions sent by Mother Jones.

The Jester, who has one of his computers on display in the International Spy Museum, is famous for launching cyberattacks against WikiLeaks and Al Qaeda-linked web sites. According to a May story in Newsweek, he's also sought to reveal the identities of jihadists recruiting online and affiliates of the hacktivist group Anonymous. The Jester told the magazine that he views his hacking as an extension of his former military service (he claims that he was affiliated with a "rather famous" unit in Afghanistan), but he said that he has "no official relationship with law enforcement agencies." On his website he describes himself as "pro OUR Military, LEA [law enforcement agencies], & Intel Communities who do the same job no matter who is sitting in the big seat."

...



...

Yesterday the Jester tweeted photos of what he believed to be fire alarms on the exterior of the Ecuadorean Embassy, asking locals to crowd-source the name and logo of the alarms. The Jester also tweeted the following map, isolating what he says are the wifi networks that Assange may be using within the embassy.



In addition to targeting Assange and Ecuador, the Jester circulated a list of 52 servers used by the Venezuelan government, which Snowden has reportedly also petitioned for asylum. The hacker told FoxNews.com on Tuesday that he would treat countries that consider housing Snowden as "enemies" (Snowden is requesting asylum in at least 21 countries). The Jester did not respond to an interview request from Mother Jones.


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/07/hacker-jester-targets-assange-snowden-ecuador

[suffragette]

255. Doubly interesting given the news that the embassy was bugged

I doubt the 2 things going on at the same time were coincidental.

[Catherina]

256. I doubt it too. They'll say who was controlling the bug on Wednesday. I can't wait

and as far as those hackers go.... they seem quite uh sophisticated

[suffragette]

259. Yes, and hacker's denial of gov't connection is carefully parsed. The embassy bugging reminds me

Of this episode:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023076296


Would not be surprised if the same agencies are involved.

[Lonr]

145. Our government needs to back the fuck off, right now!!!

!

[Catherina]

146. image: crew members sleeping at the airport whilst news reports of Edward Snowden are transmitted

3m ago

Another image has been tweeted by the Der Standard journalist Olivera Stajić. This one shows crew members sleeping at the airport, apparently whilst news reports of Edward Snowden are transmitted in the background.

Olivera Stajić @OliveraStajic

crew is sleeping. #snowden is on tv #morales #Vienna




10:52 PM - 2 Jul 2013

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3c531e4b00d0b2b85887c

[DallasNE]

149. Im Sure

That these countries refusing over flight have been provided compelling evidence that Snowden is onboard that aircraft. It could be that those computers Snowden stole have some kind of ping they are sending out. Obama would not go on a hunch here any more than he did with bin Laden. Putin is up to his eyebrows in this too.

[sam_25tx]

151. What next

Interesting developments, let us see what happens next.

[Catherina]

152. Peru confirms attendance for emergency UNASUR meeting / Latin American Ingegration

Ricardo Patiño Aroca = Minister of Foreign Affairs, Commerce and the Integration of Ecuador

Ricardo Patiño Aroca Ricardo Patiño Aroca ‏@RicardoPatinoEC

Just spoke with FM of Peru, Eda Rivas. He confirms attendance for tomorrow's emergency UNASUR meeting

Acabo de hablar con Canciller de Perú Eda Rivas. Perú ha pedido a países de Unasur su disposición para urgente reunión de presidentes mañana

Translated tweet

Ricardo Patiño Aroca ‏@RicardoPatinoEC 22m

Two European countries have already authorized overflight and we're awaiting a third party who will respond within 45 minutes.

https://twitter.com/RicardoPatinoEC/status/352309905060921344

The 3rd country is Spain which can start kissing some of its assets in Venezuela goodbye right now.

Ricardo Patiño Aroca ‏@RicardoPatinoEC 2m

So many beautiful masks fell off. As always, it's in times of crisis that we knows the truth of the speeches

Así es, muchas máscaras bonitas se cayeron. Como siempre, en los momentos de crisis se conoce la verdad de los discursos

https://twitter.com/RicardoPatinoEC/status/352315842165342210

Ricardo Patiño Aroca ‏@RicardoPatinoEC 1m

@MaiteGalarza A great reflection: UNASUR today must prove to the European Union the true meaning of the LATIN AMERICAN INTEGRATION.
@MaiteGalarza Una gran reflexión: hoy UNASUR debe demostrarle a la Unión Europea el verdadero significado de la INTEGRACIÓN LATINOAMERICANA.

Ricardo Patiño Aroca ‏@RicardoPatinoEC 2m

@torresmario Perception does not always correspond with reality, it is sometimes induced by the manner in which the news is written

@torresmario La percepción no siempre se corresponde con la realidad, a veces es inducida por la forma en que se escriben las noticias

[Iliyah]

154. Come to Cali

USA. Some may be the computers, but I think USA know who sponsored him.

[Catherina]

157. President Correa "“Decisive hours for UNASUR! Either we graduated from the colonies, or we claim ...

Rafael Correa, the president of Ecuador, has also railed against what he called an "affront to our America," and called on his fellow South American presidents to "take action".

Posting on Twitter, Correa wrote: “Decisive hours for UNASUR! Either we graduated from the colonies, or we claim our independence, sovereignty and dignity. We are all Bolivia!”

Rafael Correa ✔ @MashiRafael

Horas decisivas para UNASUR: o nos graduamos de colonias o reivindicamos nuestra independencia, soberanía y dignidad. ¡Todos somos Bolivia!
9:38 PM - 2 Jul 2013

Correa said he was trying to convene a UNASUR meeting with other South American leaders.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3c832e4b0300b24e64d8c

[Demo_Chris]

158. Amazing turn of events. nt

[HooptieWagon]

161. South America should start seizing western assets.

Once a few US and European corporations start having hotels, business, and factories seized; they'll be on the phone right quick giving orders to Obama to back off.

[sibelian]

163. hm.

Not wanting disinterested parties to bear the brunt of all this.

[HooptieWagon]

164. Not a problem.

They get their shit back after they give Obama new orders.

[sibelian]

165. ...

I don't think it works like that...

[HooptieWagon]

167. Who pulls Obama's strings?

Corporate interests. Corporate interests with assets all around the globe...including South America. Just start nationalizing AT&T in Argentina, Exxon/Mobil refineries in Brazil, copper mines, Hotels, etc...Obama will mysteriously relent right quick.

[sibelian]

172. Well, we'll see. nt

[Catherina]

166. When Spain dragged its feet to recognize President Maduro's election victory

after the neoliberal toad the West was backing lost, Maduro picked up the phone and reminded the King of Spain how many assets Spain still had in Venezuela. Spain issued a semi-apology and recognized his victory pronto.

I have no idea how this will end. They were already very unhappy with US interference in their affairs, and in Venezuela's elections.

Just 2 months ago, this was a major headline:

Evo Morales responds to John Kerry: Never Again Will We Be Your Backyard

[Catherina]

168. President of Austria just arrived, talking with President Morales, no word from Spain on airspace

Ricardo Patiño Aroca ‏@RicardoPatinoEC 4m

The President of Austria just arrived, Heinz Fischer, and is talking alone with our Latin American leader Evo Morales

En este momento llegó el presidente de Austria, Heinz Fischer, y está dialogando a solas con nuestro líder latinoamericano Evo Morales

https://twitter.com/RicardoPatinoEC/status/352326325240987649

Ricardo Patiño Aroca ‏@RicardoPatinoEC 5m

Although the deadline has passed (09h00), the Spanish ambassador still does not have answer whether President Evo Morales is authorized to pass by Spain

Aunque venció el plazo (09h00) embajador español todavía no le contesta al presidente Evo Morales si está autorizado a pasar por España

https://twitter.com/RicardoPatinoEC/status/352326876364152833

[Catherina]

173. 10 hours and counting now. Since this international incident began n/t

[Catherina]

174. FALSE ALARM: Spain will allow #Bolivian President’s jet into its airspace – Austrian President

Last edited Wed Jul 3, 2013, 04:53 AM - Edit history (1)

RT ‏@RT_com 3m

BREAKING: Spain will allow #Bolivian President’s jet into its airspace – Austrian President http://on.rt.com/hcs26s

Edited, this is no longer correct.

Spain is INSISTING on inspecting his plane. Morales has refused. They rescinded the permission

[JimDandy]

197. This is un-fu*king-belivable. WWIII was pegged for the ME. n/t

[zeeland]

175. I can't believe this is happening!

If Snowden is assassinated how will anyone defend this government.
This is a long thread and I'm sure it's all been said, but we have to do
something. This is like watching a train wreck in slow motion. One thing
is certain, there is something Snowden has yet to release that has those
in power shitting their pants.

What bodes poorly for the world will be much worse for us.

[Catherina]

178. I hope Snowden is on that plane or another one

His life is in extreme danger.

It's a train wreck all right. You should see all the Latin American headlines. They're extremely angry.

Continental European papers are ripping their governments to shreds over this.

Our government has outdone itself.

Snowden in a million years couldn't have hurt the US more than the US just hurt itself. We ripped our own mask off for the whole world to see.

[zeeland]

181. I sincerely believe Mandela

refused to see Obama. The rest of the world knows what we
are dealing with. God help them if they murder Snowden.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

272. There have been too many accidents involving planes carrying politicians, whistle-blowers, and

other persons with information adverse to the powers that be.

[Catherina]

176. Audio of alleged conversation between Morales pilot and Vienna control room

36m ago

Audio has been posted purporting to be of the conversation between a pilot aboard Morales's flight and the control room at Vienna airport.

Although the Guardian cannot 100% verify the audio, it comes from a source who has a track record of monitoring aviation communications. (In this 2011 article, Huub, also known online as “BlackBox” and @FMCNL, is described as a former member of the Dutch military who has been monitoring radio frequency scanners, amplifiers, and antennas for more than 25 years.)

Part of the conversation goes:

“Do you need any assistance?”

“Not at this moment. We need to land because we cannot get a correct indication of the fuel indication...we need to land.”

This problem might indicate why Bolivian Foreign Minister David Choquehuanca accused France and Portugal of putting the president's life at risk by cancelling authorisation for the plane. But it is hard to believe that those countries would have refused permission to land if a problem was reported.

<AUDIO HERE>

A press officer at Vienna airport said she could not confirm whether or not the audio recording was genuine.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3d7d8e4b0300b24e64d90

[Catherina]

240. Audio above is genuine

2m ago

In Vienna, an official has told AP that Morales' aircraft asked controllers at Vienna airport to land because there was "no clear indication" that the plane had enough fuel to continue on its journey.

This suggests that the audio purporting to be of the conversation between the plane's pilot and the controllers at the airport, published earlier on the blog, was genuine.

The Austrian official, who demanded anonymity because he was not authorised to go public with the information, said Austrian authorities could not comment on whether the plane was denied overflights by other countries.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d4172be4b0e80ab6523ac2

[davidpdx]

182. There are two things I'm curious about

And before someone jumps the gun with accusations, I'd like proof.

Who reported that Snowden was possibly on the plane?

What specifically caused the four countries to change their mind about the use of airspace and/or grounding his plane?

I would like an honest source and Fox News and the Guardian don't cut it for me (I've already looked through all the articles anyway).

[Catherina]

183. France, lying through its teeth. Anonymous officials, not authorized to speak, blah, blah

PARIS – French officials are denying that France refused to let the Bolivian president’s plane cross over French airspace amid suspicions that NSA leaker Edward Snowden was aboard.

...

But two officials with the French Foreign Ministry said Wednesday that Morales’ plane had authorization to fly over France. They would not comment on why Bolivian officials said otherwise. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to be publicly named according to ministry policy.

France’s government has firmly criticized reported surveillance of U.S. allies by the National Security Agency but has not offered public support for Snowden.

http://globalnews.ca/news/688968/france-denies-blocking-bolivian-plane-amid-rumours-nsa-leaker-snowden-was-aboard/

If Hollande, that fake Socialist, didn't realize he was in trouble with his party before, he will now judging by the angry, stunned reaction of the French people.

[magellan]

184. Spain is still blocking Bolivian President's flight through their airspace - Reuters additional

From the Guardian: "Morales said he refused a request by the Spanish authorities to inspect his plane in Vienna and has not been granted permission to use Spanish airspace, according to Reuters."

[Catherina]

188. Unbelievable! And after the Austrian President relayed it was open. FUBAR n/t

[magellan]

190. Well, now Austria is mad at Spain!

The Spanish government has not just annoyed Morales and Bolivia with their refusal to allow his plane through its airspace. Austrian foreign minister Michael Spindelegger is also annoyed. He reportedly said:

"We don't understand, why Spain is acting like that."

He also maintained that Austrian officials had been on the plane and Snowden was not there. Journalists at the airport had earlier suggested that Austrian authorities could not conclusively attest to Snowden not being on board as the jet's crew were saying no-one had been allowed on to the plane.

btw, I've been following your updates on this for a few hours and want to add my thanks to you for your diligent reporting!

[Catherina]

194. You're welcome my friend

I'm absolutely mesmerized by this. It's an appalling trainwreck that the whole world is watching in disbelief. In my little corner in poor, poverty-stricken Guatemala, the NSA scandal didn't make a big splash among common people, but this? They're outraged! US-Latin American relations just took a huge step backwards.

[magellan]

200. I had no idea you were in Guatemala!

I'm beginning to wish I were too. I've no doubt this incident has got SA's back up. Rightfully so. What I find unbelievable is people here on DU dismissing and minimizing this. It's nothing to laugh at. But I guess IOKIADDI for some.

[Catherina]

186. SPAIN RESCINDS airspace permission a few minutes later after Morales refuses to let them inspect

17m ago

Morales said he refused a request by the Spanish authorities' to inspect his plane in Vienna and has not been granted permission to use Spanish airspace, according to Reuters.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3e072e4b00d0b2b858885

It appears that Morales's path may not have been cleared after all. Austrian reporter Tanja Malle tweets that at another press conference, this time with Morales and ambassadors from the Bolivarian Alliance for the Americas (Alba), it was said that Spain is still not opening its airspace to his flight.

tanja malle @scharlatanja

chaos in #Vienna another press conference by #Morales and all ambassodors from #Alba -countries: #Spain still blocking

===

tanja malle @scharlatanja

#Spain blocking its airspace = #Morales still stuck in #Vienna -although Austrian president #Fisher was telling us earlier: everything ok

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3df3fe4b0300b24e64d94

[LumosMaxima]

189. A rumor?

I've been reading elsewhere that this happened in response to *rumors* that Snowden could have been on board the plane. Shouldn't it have been a fairly simple matter for someone to contact the authorities in Russia to verify whether Snowden was still at the airport? It seems like a bit of an overreaction to do this without some attempt to confirm the rumor.

[Catherina]

193. More like NSA intel

especially knowing now that they discovered a listening device in the room where Assange and Ecuador's Foreign Minister Patino had met.

They're using *rumor* as a cover. No one does this kind of stuff based on a *rumor* or an anonymous tip. Wars have started for less.

We've become so paranoid that we don't trust anyone. We wouldn't have trusted Russia and knowing Putin, who's enjoying this so much, he'd probably give one of his enigmatic responses and throw in another insult about pigs squealing. I've never been so embarrassed for my country because there's no acceptable excuse for this, no matter how you spin it. There's nothing to spin

[LumosMaxima]

205. Right

I was kind of thinking that, too. It sounds like there is real reason to believe Snowden has left Russia.

[Catherina]

207. Did Morales himself make any statements about Snowden not being onboard?

The closest thing I recall seeing is a crew member stating that it's a small plane and he didn't see anyone who looked liked Edward Snowden but there was so much said tonight! Do you know?

[LumosMaxima]

212. Not sure.

I think there was a denial, but like you said, so much has been said. It's hard to keep it all straight, not to mention hard to know what to believe.

[Catherina]

191. Austrian foreign minister annoyed, "We don't understand, why Spain is acting like that."

39m ago

The Spanish government has not just annoyed Morales and Bolivia with their refusal to allow his plane through its airspace. Austrian foreign minister Michael Spindelegger is also annoyed. He reportedly said:

"We don't understand, why Spain is acting like that."

He also maintained that Austrian officials had been on the plane and Snowden was not there. Journalists at the airport had earlier suggested that Austrian authorities could not conclusively attest to Snowden not being on board as the jet's crew were saying no-one had been allowed on to the plane.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3e725e4b00d0b2b858888

[magellan]

195. And it gets even stranger...

This is very strange. AP is reporting that both French and Spanish officials have denied refusing to let Morales's plane cross their respective airspace.

French officials denied on Wednesday that France refused to let the Bolivian president's plane cross over its airspace amid suspicions that NSA leaker Edward Snowden was aboard. Spain, too, said the plane was free to cross its territory ...

Bolivian officials said that France, Portugal, Spain and Italy blocked the plane from flying over their territories, and angrily demanded explanation ...

Two officials with the French foreign ministry said on Wednesday that Morales's plane had authorisation to fly over France. They would not comment on why Bolivian officials said otherwise. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorised to be publicly named according to ministry policy.

An official with Spain's foreign ministry said on Wednesday that the country on Tuesday authorised Morales' plane to fly within its airspace and to make a refueling stop. The official said Bolivia asked again this morning for permission and got it. She spoke on condition of anonymity because of department rules.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3d7d8e4b0300b24e64d90

All a big misunderstanding? With one country, possibly. With four? Sure....

[Catherina]

198. "condition of anonymity" "department rules" "not authorised to be publicly named" Bullshit n/t

[Catherina]

196. both French and Spanish officials have denied refusing to let Morales's plane cross their airspace

This is very strange. AP is reporting that both French and Spanish officials have denied refusing to let Morales's plane cross their respective airspace.

French officials denied on Wednesday that France refused to let the Bolivian president's plane cross over its airspace amid suspicions that NSA leaker Edward Snowden was aboard. Spain, too, said the plane was free to cross its territory ...

Bolivian officials said that France, Portugal, Spain and Italy blocked the plane from flying over their territories, and angrily demanded explanation ...

Two officials with the French foreign ministry said on Wednesday that Morales's plane had authorisation to fly over France. They would not comment on why Bolivian officials said otherwise. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorised to be publicly named according to ministry policy.

An official with Spain's foreign ministry said on Wednesday that the country on Tuesday authorised Morales' plane to fly within its airspace and to make a refueling stop. The official said Bolivia asked again this morning for permission and got it. She spoke on condition of anonymity because of department rules.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3eba3e4b0e80ab6523aa8

*AP is reporting* lol. Ask any decent poster in the Latin American forum what it means when *AP is reporting*. Liars all of them. They have no problems allowing rendition flights in and out of their airspace.

This is exactly why I'm staying up all night, to capture it before the press rewrites things.

[JimDandy]

201. Thanks for your updates! n/t

[Catherina]

209. You're welcome Jim

[magellan]

202. Morales is boarding his plane again

Morales reportedly boarding

Photojournalist Matthias Cremer, who is at Vienna airport, tweets that the Bolivian president is boarding the plane.

Given the constant to-ing and fro-ing of the last few hours, it's too soon to say Morales is definitely on his way ...

Ya know, after all this I hope Snowden IS on that plane!

[magellan]

203. And we have takeoff!

The Bolivian president's plane has left (with Morales on board), Austrian reporter Tanja Malle tweets.

Catherina, can you track the plane?

[Catherina]

204. Yes. Give me a minute n/t

[Catherina]

206. The plane is a Dassault Falcon 900EX. Tracking link for FAB-001

The plane is a Dassault Falcon 900EX

It can be tracked here: http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/fab-001

Unless it's been modified, its air range is 4,300 nautical miles

[magellan]

211. Thank you! n/t

[Catherina]

213. Do we dare go to sleep? n/t

[magellan]

215. I haven't even had dinner yet so I'm good for a bit

(Crazy hours we keep in this house!)

Are you flagging yet? Here, let me help....

[Catherina]

220. I suddenly started fading.

Can I save your lovely coffee for a few hours from now? The sleep fairy just hit me hard! I'm going to sleep at my desk.

[magellan]

222. Mais oui!

I'll make fresh for you then...if I'm still awake. Sweet dreams, and don't press your nose to the keyboard!

[Catherina]

223. Can't sleep lol. The roosters are already crowing!

With sugar please

[magellan]

232. You've got it

I'll have one with you. Working out computer and phone problems long distance...oy vey!

[LumosMaxima]

208. Le Monde is reporting that France did deny him entry to their airspace. nt

[Catherina]

210. Do you have a link?

Everyone knows they did. The French are up in arms about it on twitter. One of their most retweeted was "How SHAMEFUL, you pulled your underwear down for the US" (in French).

[LumosMaxima]

214. Yep.

Originally I saw a blurb on Le Monde's index page, but that is gone now. From this article:

http://www.lemonde.fr/ameriques/article/2013/07/03/une-rumeur-sur-snowden-provoque-une-crise-diplomatique-entre-paris-et-la-paz_3440849_3222.html

"Après une matinée de grande confusion, le président bolivien, Evo Morales, a décollé mercredi 3 juillet de Vienne, où il se trouvait depuis la veille au soir après avoir été, selon lui, interdit de survol de plusieurs pays européens à son retour de Moscou. La France, le Portugal, l'Espagne et l'Italie soupçonnent l'avion d'abriter Edward Snowden . . . "

This is somewhat less specific, but basically says that several European countries denied the plane entry, and that France, Portugal, Spain, and Italy suspected the plane of having Snowden on board.

[Catherina]

216. They added that weasel "selon lui" (according to him) but Wow, they didn't search the plane

according to your fantastic link:

Un peu plus tôt, le chef de l'Etat autrichien, Heinz Fischer, venu à l'aéroport pour rencontrer son homologue bolivien, avait affirmé que les "conditions sont remplies pour une poursuite du voyage". "Les passeports ont été contrôlés et, contrairement aux rumeurs qui ont circulé, Edward Snowden n'était pas à bord", a déclaré à le porte-parole du ministère de l'intérieur, Karl-Heinz Grundboeck. L'avion n'a pas été fouillé. "Il n'y avait aucune raison légale pour une fouille", a-t-il dit.

A little earlier, the Head of State, Heinz Fischer, who had come to the airport to meet his Bolivian counterpart, affirmed that "conditions have been fulfilled to continue the trip". "Passports have been verified and, contrary to rumors, Edward Snowden is not on board", declared the spokesperson for the Interior Ministry,Karl-Heinz Grundboeck. The plane was not searched. "There was no legal reason for a search", he said.

http://www.lemonde.fr/ameriques/article/2013/07/03/une-rumeur-sur-snowden-provoque-une-crise-diplomatique-entre-paris-et-la-paz_3440849_3222.html

This is getting good. Thank you for this link!

[LumosMaxima]

217. De rien. :) nt

[Catherina]

219. Merci :)

Et bienvenu a DU

[Catherina]

218. Diplomatic row is on, say France Portugal Spain and Italy "violated international law", going to UN

1m ago

So, after a stopover of more than 12 hours at Vienna airport, Morales is on his way. But the diplomatic row is set to run.

Bolivia's ambassador to the United Nations in New York said the refusal to let his president's plane cross over European airspace was an act of aggression that should have consequences, AP reports.

Sacha Llorenti told reporters in Geneva on Wednesday that France, Portugal, Spain and Italy "violated international law" when they blocked President Evo Morales' plane that was returning from a trip to Moscow, based on suspicions NSA leaker Edward Snowden might be aboard.

"We interpret this as an aggression" and will ask UN secretary-general Ban Ki-moon to intervene, he said Wednesday.

Llorenti says "the orders came from the United States" but other nations violated the immunity of the president and his plane, putting his life at risk.

French and Spanish officials have reportedly denied that they refused access to their airspace.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d3c832e4b0300b24e64d8c

[idwiyo]

221. What is it that Snowden has (or they are scared that he has)?

[Catherina]

226. I hope we soon find out. But Snowden already disbursed the files

so this is more about punishment than stopping any further revelations.

[idwiyo]

227. Assuming he told the truth and didn't hold something back.

Hugs

[Catherina]

236. That too. Greenwald said he (GG) has a lot more to release

and more shocking than what we've already seen. Spiegel has some for Germany for sure too. Hugs

[Catherina]

224. EU Commission spokeswoman: not entirely clear... why the French and Portuguese decided to divert flt

Individual European Union member states have the right to refuse access to their airspace but it was unclear why France and Portugal cancelled air permits for a plane carrying the Bolivian president Evo Morales, an EU Commission spokeswoman said. She told Reuters:

"At the moment it is not entirely clear what happened this morning, why the French and Portuguese decided to divert the flight."

But she added that it was a sovereign responsibility of EU member states to decide whether to refuse access to an aircraft and the EU had no powers in the area.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d4046de4b00d0b2b858894

[malaise]

229. As I said this is a major violation of international law

but of course these laws are only for the imperialists

[SidDithers]

234. Plane is currently over Spain...

after having passed through both Italian and French airspace.

Sid

[LuvNewcastle]

235. I never knew you were in Guatemala, Catherina.

Thanks a million for all you do.

[Catherina]

237. You're welcome my friend :) n/t

[Starry Messenger]

238. I am just catching up on all of this.

Thank you Catherina. It is so upsetting to see President Morales treated like this. The response seems very "Bush era".

[Catherina]

241. It is profoundly upsetting. It was an incredibly stupid stunt to boot.

Even my jaded self is shocked.

I just stepped out to buy some milk around the corner. This is the talk of the city. People are very outraged. Most people know nothing about the NSA scandal but they all know about this.

[Catherina]

239. Reporters Without Borders and Assange cosign op-Ed in Le Monde calling on EU to Protect Snowden

With uncanny timing, given events over the past 24 hours, Reporters Without Borders general secretary Christophe Deloire, and WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange have co-signed an op-Ed in Le Monde calling on EU states to protect Edward Snowden. It says:

"On October 12, 2012, the European Union won the Nobel Peace Prize for contributing to the “advancement of peace and reconciliation, democracy and human rights in Europe.” The EU should show itself worthy of this honor and show its will to defend freedom of information, regardless of fears of political pressure from its so-called closest ally, the United States ...

This young man (Snowden) will remain abandoned in the transit zone of the Moscow airport only if the European countries abandon their principles, as well as a major part of the raison d’être of the EU. Expressions of diplomatic outrage will be empty gestures if the person responsible for the revelations is left isolated and abandoned."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d40f42e4b00d0b2b85889d

[Snarkoleptic]

242. Seems we overpaid for our all-seeing eye.

[sibelian]

248. Snowden's taking the laptops to Mount Etna.

It's all the US's dirt on everyone else and AAAAARG it's the only copy.

IT DOES NOT OCCUR TO THEM THAT HE WILL DESTROY IT.

[Pholus]

252. Sauron should not have used contractors either. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

257. Go Frodo! n/t

[GoneFishin]

245. I am sure if this happened to Airforce One it would be no problem.

[Ter]

250. The veil of the Shadow Government has been lifted

The elite are nervous and desperate.

[nadinbrzezinski]

253. Ooh boy, the plane is en route to the Canaries

And should get home at 7-8 local time.

This is as serious as can be.

[magellan]

254. I think it's just landed. n/t

[Catherina]

258. Washington Post Shamelss Propaganda

...

That turn has since become the source of enormous international controversy. Morales, while in Russia, had made public comments strongly suggesting he might be willing to shelter NSA leaker Edward Snowden, raising questions as to whether he might ferry the American fugitive on his personal plane.

...

We still don’t know for sure why the plane turned around; there are several competing versions of events. Bolivian officials said that France and Portugal, as well as perhaps Spain and Italy, had revoked permission for the plane to traverse their air space or had denied permission to refuel there, suggesting that the European countries believed Snowden may have been on the flight. French and Spanish officials said the flight was free to cross their air space.

On the other hand, audio purportedly taken from the flight’s communication with air traffic control, which can be accessed and recorded by anyone with the appropriate radio, has the pilot requesting permission to land because they believe they may not have enough fuel.

Once they landed, though, Austrian officials searched the plane for Snowden and checked the passports of everyone on board, according to a statement by a spokesman for the Austrian Interior Ministry, who called the checks “routine.”

...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/07/03/heres-a-map-showing-the-very-strange-flight-path-of-bolivian-president-evo-morales/

[magellan]

261. Hmm, now let's think about this for a moment

They've taken off from Moscow, been in the air for over two hours, and suddenly the pilot's told he's being denied access to the airspace he needs to cross -- France, Portugal -- to reach his refueling stop in the Canary Islands. The plane is rerouted to Vienna, and evidently circles for a while before being allowed to land. The conversation of interest between the plane and Vienna is purported to be this:

“Do you need any assistance?”

“Not at this moment. We need to land because we cannot get a correct indication of the fuel indicat(or) … we need to land.”

What else was said before this we don't know. But it seems to me that in such a situation, getting landing clearance any way you can -- even by saying there might be a technical fault -- isn't out of the question. Or maybe they were finally running out of fuel. Either way, this isn't something to take lightly.

I find it it indescribably outrageous that WaPo would attempt to paint this as some kind of -- what? Set up by the Bolivian President? He's got nothing better to do than clown around in the skies and make up stories about being denied airspace? Why, because he's just a little president from a leftist country in South America, indigenous on top of it, so this sort of buffoonery is to be expected from him?

Un-fucking-real.

[Catherina]

263. Yes! And they're pushing the WAPO propaganda hard. You can always spot them

Look at this lol. There were 12 of them in a row. All worded the same. All with the same shortened URL to the WAPO story. And none of these people have many followers. They showed up about 2 weeks ago to spam, spam, spam their propaganda.



They're fixated with Assange too lol.

[magellan]

268. State Dept confirms it's been in contact with overflight countries

Our Washington bureau chief, Dan Roberts, has been at the State Department briefing. Spokeswoman Jen Psaki has confirmed that the US has been in contact with countries that had a "chance" of Snowden flying through their air space:

We have been in contact with a range of countries that had a chance of having Snowden land or travel through their country but I am not going to outline what those countries were or when this happened.

She refused to confirm or deny any specific involvement with Morale's flight or address questions on whether it was a breach of diplomatic protocol, saying these were matters for Europeans to address.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live

[flamingdem]

273. This "in contact" is related to the overall issue of asylum and not the Bolivian plane incident

Read carefully and you'll see though right now the Guardian is not the best place for information

[temmer]

294. no, the briefing was about transit, not asylum

and you have yet to tell me where the Guardian is not reporting correctly here, as you insinuate.

[bvar22]

270. Whatever Snowden has TERRIFIES the HELL out of the Obama Administration.

The Most Transparent Government Ever?
not even funny.






You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS,[/font]
not by their rhetoric, promises, or excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

[WinkyDink]

274. Certainly makes one ponder the possibilities. Mere spying can't be it.

[HooptieWagon]

280. Yep. Either that, or Obama ...

...turns into a petulant little boy when he doesn't get his way.

[aquart]

286. I would say that Europe isn't too thrilled either.

We're assuming blackmail. We're assuming an international victimhood. But if the governments agreed? If they swap information they aren't legally allowed to collect on their own?

Maybe Europe feels as threatened as the US.

[TheJames]

314. My partner points out

that this is just exciting enough to distract us from... WHAT? Perhaps we should look around and check what we are being distracted from. TPP, anyone?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

271. The Obama Administration is sending a message to all other Heads of States. n/t

[WinkyDink]

278. Well, then, just WTH does he think he is, emperor of the world? Europe will put him in his place.

[bvar22]

301. Latin America already has.

That is WHY all the successes of the Ballot Box Revolutions in Latin America have been censored from US News,
and the leadership of BOTH Political Parties are desperate to DEMONIZE these emerging Popular Democracies.

I was truly disappointed to see John Kerry participate in the demonizing of Venezuela's Transparent, Verifiable, Democratic elections,
especially after he showed he didn't have the balls to question his OWN stolen election in 2004.

[font size=3]"The worst enemy of humanity is U.S. capitalism. That is what provokes uprisings like our own, a rebellion against a system, against a neoliberal model, which is the representation of a savage capitalism. If the entire world doesn't acknowledge this reality, that nation states are not providing even minimally for health, education and nourishment, then each day the most fundamental human rights are being violated."[/font]
----Bolivian Reform President Evo Morales

[font size=1]Psst. FDR said much the same thing in 1944 with his Economic Bill of Rights, but the "modern" "Centrist" Democratic Party has wall papered over that.[/font][/font]





You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS,[/font]
not by their rhetoric, promises, or excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

[chimpymustgo]

305. He's in the 1%, and is an ineffectual, limp tool.

[Coyotl]

281. REC # 100

[WillyT]

283. K & R !!!

[aquart]

285. Even if Snowden was on board, this was outrageous and unacceptable.

He's not that valuable. Sovereignty is.

[warrprayer]

291. I fear for Snowden

and I fear for America even more

[ctsnowman]

292. K & R

[Catherina]

296. US AMBASSADOR told Austria to extradite Snowden yesterday. Was convinced he was on plane (article)

The U.S. Government has presented Bolivia with an extradition request for the former CIA anylist Edward Snowden, according to Bolivia's Minister of Foreign Affairs

...

According Foreign Minister Choquehuanca this extradition request explains the actions of several European countries when they closed their airspace to the plane of the president of Bolivia, Evo Morales, thinking that Edward Snowden could be on that on the plane, Snowden is wanted by the U.S. for leaking large amounts of classified information from the U.S. National Security Agency.

...

Texto completo en: http://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/view/99109-eeuu-bolivia-solicitud-extradicion-snowden

Daily "DiePresse" reporting that USA demanded Snowden's extradiction from Austrian authorities yesterday

US Requested that Vienna Extradite Snowden

03.07.2013 | 21:28 | HELMAR DUMBS UND CHRISTIAN ULTSCH (Die Presse)

Bolivian President Morales was forced to land in Vienna. NSA whistleblower Snowden was suspected to be on his jet. In a telephone conversation with the Foreign Office, the U.S. ambassador demanded they extradite him.



Here's the crucial section:

Sie landete gegen 23 Uhr. Kurz danach ging im Wiener Außenamt ein dringlicher Anruf ein. Am anderen Ende der Leitung: US-Botschafter William Eacho. Wie "Die Presse" erfuhr, behauptete er mit großer Bestimmtheit, dass Edward Snowden an Bord sei, der von den USA gesuchte Aufdecker jüngster Abhörskandale. Eacho habe auf eine diplomatische Note verwiesen, in der die USA die Auslieferung Snowdens verlangten.

Translated:

It landed about 11 pm. Shortly after that, the Vienna foreign department received a phone call. The caller was the US embassador William Echo. "Die Presse" learned that he claimed with strong firmness that Edward Snowden was onboard, the whistleblower of the recent surveillance scandals. Eacho referred to a diplomatic note requesting Snowden's extradition.


http://diepresse.com/home/politik/aussenpolitik/1426275/USA-verlangten-von-Wien-Snowdens-Auslieferung?_vl_backlink=/home/politik/aussenpolitik/1416110/index.do&direct=1416110

Thanks to Temmer for the translation

[magellan]

316. What's this "Die Presse"? Must be some rw rag or something

Is it related to the Guardian or owned by Murdoch maybe? I mean, it's obvious this is just a bunch of bad reporting by some cruddy little tool of an outfit that's hellbent on making Obama look bad.



Actually, I went to bed before you posted this and I'm only just seeing it. Fascinating. How have the beleaguered pom-pom crew responded to it, if at all?

[Gravitycollapse]

297. Flight is on final approach for landing in Brazil.

[JEB]

298. Wow Catherina, what an amzing job of covering this as it unfolds. Many thanks.

[Catherina]

299. You're welcome. It was an interesting night of DU solidarity with this story. n/t

[Catherina]

300. Will put future updates in a different thread

Will put future updates in this thread [link:http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023160893|
US presents Bolivia with an extradition request for Edward Snowden]

President Morales is about to land in Brazil

Flight tracker: http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/fab-001

Live coverage: http://www.telesurtv.net/el-canal/senal-en-vivo

[libdude]

303. We have

a President, a Congress and from reading many different posts, that does not accept the idea of the supremacy of the Constitution, particuarily the 4 th Amendment, why would anyone think the the the 5 th Amendment needs to be complied with? The National Defence Authorization Act circumvents the guarantees, the fact that James Clapper can lie to Congress with impunity and that 26 Senators have very little idea or even a need to know would and should make anyone concerned.
If reasons to ignore the Constitution and the Bill of Rights can be made and justified, then we are no longer a Constitutional Democratic Republic.
Snowden would be foolish to voluntarily place himself in the hands of U.S. custody, there would be no public trial as secrecy would be invoked on the proceedings.