France, Portugal to allow Bolivian plane to fly through their airspace, Spain allowed refueling -NYT

[flamingdem]

Bolivian officials said they were working on a new flight plan to allow Mr. Morales to fly home. But in a possible sign of further suspicion about the passenger manifest, Mr. Saavedra said that Italy had also refused to give permission for the plane to fly over its airspace. Later he said that France and Portugal had reversed course and offered to allow the plane to fly through their airspace after all.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/03/world/europe/snowden.html?_r=0

-------

Spain allowed the plane to be refueled * The plane was fueled before Austria

He said that after France and Portugal canceled authorization for the flight, Spain’s government allowed the plane to be refueled in its territory. From there the plane flew on to Vienna.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2013/07/02/bgcom-bolivia/abC4wQRRRNXWvZi1COkUjP/story.html

--------

French denial not confirmed

French government officials reached overnight said they could not confirm whether Morales' plane was denied permission to fly over France.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/article/20130703/API/1307030515

[struggle4progress]

1. ... Austrian foreign ministry spokesman Alexander Schallenberg confirmed that Mr Morales's plane

had landed at Vienna and that Mr Snowden was not on board. “President Morales will leave early Wednesday morning for La Paz,” the Bolivian capital, he added. Austria did not know why the plane had landed at Vienna, he said. Officials at the French foreign ministry and the prime minister's office said they knew nothing about the incident ...
Edward Snowden 'plane' rumour sparks diplomatic spat
From: AFP
July 03, 2013 3:20PM
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/bolivia-denies-edward-snowden-on-president-evo-morales-plane/story-e6frg6so-1226673635686

[flamingdem]

2. Also, Portugal first said they were having a technical problem

This is interpreted by the Bolivians as untrue. It might be but it looks like someone in Portugal, maybe low level, was scared to be blamed with letting Snowden land, or something.

It sounds like a lot of bad communication.

The French story is not even confirmed.

The Spain story was bs because they refueled there.

[alcibiades_mystery]

3. A lot of hooey

One wonders whether any of this even happened.

[flamingdem]

7. Morales is calling it a hijack, even though the Austrians had no idea why they landed!

A little paranoia took over there, can't really blame them but many conclusions were jumped to for sure.

The big problem now is that they have convoked a meeting of UNASUR, guess that means more jumping on planes.
How embarrassing if it's largely a misunderstanding combined with poor communication.

[struggle4progress]

20. Morales seems to be taking it in stride here:

[flamingdem]

23. I read that he joked and said he had to leave the media interviews because

Snowden was waiting! Thanks for putting this photo up it actually makes me feel much better!

I'm very glad this wasn't a screw up by the US, that would have been major.

[sabrina 1]

29. It was, a huge screw-up by the US. Morales has already contacted most of the leaders of S.A.

to complain about the insult to the sovereignty of his country. He is a very intelligent man, more so than most of our ignorant leaders at this point. No surprise to see him smiling, they have been warning about the oppression of the US for a long time and this proves the point to anyone who doubted it.

We have zero moral authority in the world, only puppets we have exercises power over. It's not power when people do your bidding out of fear.

[flamingdem]

30. Read the thread and links, it was a lot of miscommunication

and the Ministries are not confirming, so jury still out.

[sabrina 1]

35. Sorry, it was a huge insult to the leader of a sovereign nation and it being taken as such

by S.A.'s version of NATO. Something that was built up during the past decade as S. A. finally got rid of our Dictator allies and took back their sovereignty after decades of oppression by the Western backed dictators, some of whom are now on trial for the crimes they committed against the people.

This was a smart move on behalf of South America. This allieance of nations who have a very recent history of oppression by the US and its Western Global Corps. So we are no longer dealing with one small, powerless nation anymore, but with an alliance of Nations to protect all of them from our interference in their affairs. They did this while we were busy terrorizing the ME.

All of the allied countries in SA have been notified of this insult. Hopefully there will be an apology. Morales has diplomatic immunity which has been violated. Shameful really.

[Zorra]

55. [phone]

[malaise]

57. + a million

Wish I could rec your post

[Warpy]

51. Morales is on his way to being one of the longest serving

presidents of Bolivia, a country so unstable they were known to have a revolution twice a month in some years. I have a great deal of respect for that, if nothing else.

And yes, this has handed him a great deal of propaganda ammunition should he find it profitable to use it.

Best thing about having the US bogged down in Stupid's wars half a planet away was open the way for SA to shift to the left. The countries that have done so are doing much better.

All that's left really is telling the DEA they are no longer welcome.

[sabrina 1]

58. Yes, I agree, there is a silver lining to our ME preoccupation in that region of the world. But our

old Colonial habits die hard apparently. Someone thought we still had the ability to order S. American leaders around as we used to.

Kicking out the DEA would seem to be a reasonable response to this insult. I'm sure it will be on the list of things to discuss among those nations. The sooner our 'Great Wars', on drugs, on terror, are starved of cooperation, the sooner they will end.

Morales is now in a position to gain support to take steps to end cooperation with the phony Drug War.

[MADem]

65. Well, that's because he bent the Constitution to his will, and wiped his ass on it, in essence.

He said since the country reworked the document, then he deserved a "reset" and he was entitled to two terms starting with the new document. He got what he wanted, because he's popular.

At the end of the day, and his allowed time in office, one of two things will happen--he'll either go gently, or he'll wipe his ass on the thing again, and become one of those sometimes benevolent, sometimes autocratic dictators that are popular in some corners.

If you think Bolivia is "doing well" you haven't been paying attention. I suppose if you compare them to VZ, they're doing brilliantly, but the bottom has fallen out of the tin market, and they are just muddling along. Between trade with USA and energy exports to Brazil, they are maintaining. It's not awful, certainly, but it could be better.

We've been "out" of Bolivia for half a decade now--Evo booted our guy out, along with DEA. See http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/30/world/fg-bolivia-dea30 for more on that. We don't even have an ambassador there, now, we're making do with a Chargé d’Affaires (as is Bolivia, their guy is an Army General at their Embassy in DC).

[KittyWampus]

56. whata great face he has.

[Whisp]

24. Was tinder for rumours.

omg the sky is falling on my burning hair! The world hates Obama, omg, Itoldja.

[flamingdem]

27. Paint us unsurprised!

Regardless as scandals go this was memorable!!

Thanks for your compliments on my corny jokes by the way that made my day !!

[MADem]

49. I know that they can be very shitty in Europe re: military flights, to include military passenger

aircraft.

If you miss your launch window, they'll do exactly what they did to old Evo, put you down on the tarmac. They're serious too, or at least they used to be...

[sabrina 1]

59. When was the last time the President of a sovereign state was treated this way?

And 'old Evo' as you call him, is deserving of the same respect that any democratically elected leader of a sovereign nation is entitled to, along with the immunity they are granted.

His election was an historic event in most of the world, but here in the US where we so disrespect people like Morales and the people who elected him, it's no surprise to see the arrogance surrounding the rights of other sovereign nations. And our 'allies' in Europe are having difficulty losing their old Colonial habits. But it's a new world in the old Colonies and democratically elected leaders there are outraged over this insult to Morales. They are now in a position to reject the kind of treatment they endured for so long from the Western Colonialists.

[MADem]

60. I've personally seen a "senior cabinet official" treated this way.

I do not know if that's the reason that Portugal or whomever gave old Evo the stiff arm, all I am telling you is that I have personally seen European ATC refuse to give clearance to launch AND refuse to let aircraft continue on their journeys if they deviate substantially from their flight plans, particularly in terms of TIME. Late to launch? You gotta refile. Late to arrive for reasons other than weather? Sit your ass down.

Look, I can call Old Evo whatever I'd like and I'll thank you to cease with the bullshit, sanctimonious lectures--when I see some of the shit people call the POTUS, even on this board, I have to say I find the sensitivity for Old Evo rather amusing, when I don't see you leaping to defend any denigration of Obama (his election was kind of a big deal/watershed moment, too, at least for some of us--but never mind that).

If you have Old Evo over for dinner, since he's your New Best Friend, whatever you do, don't serve him chicken--he'll give you quite a lecture.

[sabrina 1]

61. I don't engage in name-calling of the President or anyone else. Gave that up when I was around

10 years old having learned that it serves no purpose other than make the name caller look childish. So save the lecture for those who do. Don't recall Morales engaging in 'some of the shit people call the POTUS' either.

You can do anything you like, your referring to Evo Morales as 'old Evo' accomplishes what? It won't affect him in the slightest. It is disrespectful but then that is what we are known for around the world, so nothing lost, and definitely nothing gained.

[MADem]

62. I don't see you leaping to defend him like you do Old Evo, though.

It would help if you read what I wrote. I was talking about people on this board when I was referring to "some of the shit people call the POTUS"-- not Old Evo.

Of course it won't affect Old Evo if I call him Old Evo...which is why I wondered why you were giving me a smartass lecture about it. And again, if you're so worried about disrespect, spare a moment for Obama, who gets more of his share of disrespect right here at DU.

When you have him to dinner, don't serve him on a plastic plate, either!

[Mojorabbit]

68. +100 nt

[flamingdem]

63. Is he a vegetarian?

Maybe he booted KFC out of Bolivia.

[MADem]

66. Ha ha ha! No, this was happening in Europe, actually.

Without getting into too much detail (partially because my memory of it is foggy), it was a nightmare. Launch time was delayed for some reason or another, and European ATC would not provide another window. It was a big wig, too.

I can't remember with specificity how we resolved the issue...I think perhaps we cancelled another flight and slotted the DV into that timeframe for that a/c.

What I do remember is that they were Dead Serious, they were not compromising, and they were not in the mood to play.

[backwoodsbob]

4. this is nuts

I wouldn't be surprised if we start a war over this.

This is crazy

[Whisp]

25. I wouldn't be surprised if someone planted a whisper rumor in the right places.

This all stinks, but a different smell than you are smelling.

[flamingdem]

28. Well my first thought was Assange but then I wondered

... could it be Putin having a little fun

[Whisp]

33. could be anyone on twitter, actually.

have the right handle and know where to start the lie, and voila.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

5. We got lackeys all over the world to do our bidding, they know where their petro dollars come from

and couldn't function without them.

They will not dare bite the hand that feeds.

[flamingdem]

6. Why is Pres. Morales calling it a hijack? The Austrians didn't know anything about why they landed

“Maduro has called, he is concerned and looking for a legal means to put an end to this detention, hijack, I don’t know what you would call it legally.”

Austrian ministry officials have confirmed that Snowden was not on Morales’ plane, according to AFP.

“President Morales will leave early Wednesday morning for La Paz,” Austrian ministry spokesman Alexander Schallenberg said. He denied any knowledge of why the plane landed there.

http://www.pressherald.com/news/Snowden-turns-his-gaze-on-Venezuela.html?pagenum=1

[NoPasaran]

54. Translation error

Morales recognized somebody in the airport lounge named Jacques and was waving hello.

[struggle4progress]

8. ... A U.S. defense official said the Pentagon didn’t ask North Atlantic Treaty Organization allies

to deny overflight rights to the plane carrying Bolivian president Morales. The official asked not to be identified in discussing the matter citing diplomatic sensitivities. Jen Psaki, a U.S. State Department spokeswoman, deferred questions about Morales’s plane to the individual countries involved. The French Foreign Ministry didn’t immediately respond to an after-hours request for comment ...

Bolivia Says Morales’s Travels Stalled by U.S. Snowden Hunt (2)
By Boris Groendahl, Nathan Gill and Bill Faries
July 02, 2013
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-07-02/bolivia-says-morales-s-travels-entangled-by-u-dot-s-dot-snowden-hunt

[flamingdem]

9. Thanks. That's the first clear statement by the USA. This is going to wind down

because even France doesn't confirm they denied access to airspace.

Looks like someone, some low level night guy who saw too many Jason Bourne movies caused an incident!

[struggle4progress]

18. It's weird. Conflicting reports all over the place.

... The defence minister has said that France, Portugal, Italy and Spain had prevented the jet from entering their airspace. The airspace ban is still being enforced by Spanish authorities. He blamed the decisions on pressure from the US government ...
South American nations furious over diversion of Bolivian president's plane – live
Oliver Laughland and Helen Davidson
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 3 July 2013 01.50 EDT
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live


.... A furious Bolivian Foreign Minister David Choquehuanca said ... that after France and Portugal canceled authorization for the flight, Spain's government allowed the plane to be refueled in its territory. From there the plane flew on to Vienna ....
Bolivian presidential aircraft forced to land in Austria after rumours fugitive Edward Snowden was aboard
AP
News Limited Network
July 03, 2013 1:43PM

Miscommunication? A little covert interlude with plausible deniability? Urban legend?

[flamingdem]

21. That Guardian article was written a while ago, the latest is that they're allowing the flights to go

over Spanish and French airspace and they are plotting the route.

So the over the top statements were from say 10 hours ago when the event had just happened.
The foreign minister seems volatile.

[Whisp]

26. or orchestrated. very easy to get people all excited over nothing. n/t

[still_one]

43. Doesn't matter the Obama haters won't believe it

[struggle4progress]

10. ... "The ambassador for Spain in Austria has just informed us that there is no authorisation to fly

over Spanish territory and that at 9am Wednesday they would be in contact with us again," defence minister Ruben Saavedra said. The Spanish government had made "revision of the presidential plane" a condition of granting it passage, he said ...

Bolivian president's jet rerouted amid suspicions Edward Snowden on board
France and Portugal accused of refusing entry to their airspace, while plane lands in Vienna with no sign of Snowden
Dan Roberts in Washington and agencies
The Guardian, Tuesday 2 July 2013
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-bolivia-plane-vienna

[flamingdem]

12. From the same article - sounds like a lot of he said, she said

Such as Spain doing a revision of the plane. The Guardian doesn't say if this is normal procedure, it might be. The "abruptly cancelled" just how abrupt would that be? Maybe there were technical difficulties, and there is no statement from Portugal yet.

But the kidnapped by imperialism shows the mindset, pretty extreme, understandable considering the confusion but not accurate.

----


In a midnight press conference, Bolivian vice-president Alvaro Garcia said Italy and Spain were also denying the plane permission to fly through their airspace. He described Morales as being "kidnapped by imperialism" in Europe.

"The ambassador for Spain in Austria has just informed us that there is no authorisation to fly over Spanish territory and that at 9am Wednesday they would be in contact with us again," defence minister Ruben Saavedra said.

The Spanish government had made "revision of the presidential plane" a condition of granting it passage, he said.

Choquehuanca earlier told reporters Portugal and France had abruptly cancelled air permits. "They say it was due to technical issues, but after getting explanations from some authorities we found that there appeared to be some unfounded suspicions that Mr Snowden was on the plane."

[Comrade Grumpy]

19. Some ambassadors need to get sent packing home from La Paz over this.

[struggle4progress]

22. Could be. Dunno for sure what happened yet.

[MADem]

50. Not ours. We don't have any.

I am starting to wonder if the problem is that he didn't file a proper EU flight plan...

I have seen other nations have this problem flying around in Europe. If you aren't where you said you were going to be when you said you were going to be there, they will put you down on the ground.

[struggle4progress]

11. ... French government officials reached overnight said they could not confirm whether Morales' plane

was denied permission to fly over France. Officials at Portugal's Foreign Ministry and National Civil Aviation Authority could not be reached to comment ...

Bolivian presidential aircraft forced to land in Austria after rumours fugitive Edward Snowden was aboard
AP
News Limited Network
July 03, 2013 1:43PM
http://www.couriermail.com.au/technology/news/bolivian-presidential-aircraft-forced-to-land-in-austria-after-rumours-fugitive-edward-snowden-was-aboard/story-fniho3wq-1226673526782

[flamingdem]

14. They're sound asleep and not aware of the brouhaha

haha wait until they wake up and get to work!

Or they're up and working on their stories.

[Mojorabbit]

31. Oh I would bet a lot that they have been roused from their beds. nt

[Half-Century Man]

13. Giant fuck up or

brilliantly played sleight of hand?
Just saying a hell of a lot of attention was focused in one place for several hours.

[flamingdem]

16. Meanwhile Snowden escaped!

That's the movie version anyway.

Question is where did he go ... maybe somewhere that there's no internet
so people don't recognize him?

[Half-Century Man]

37. Fuck if I know.

I think a global majority sees Snowden as positive. So, I have to wonder about the average person turning him in.

Think about it, If you are the biggest baddest block caption the neighborhood watch ever had, and then got caught peeking in windows. The other homeowners would be pissed.
Add to that, the surveillance wasn't by the government. It was by the fusion of government and private enterprise. That make Europe very nervous. There are still deep scars all over Europe from the last time a very nationalist fascist showed up(over a hundred million people died). There are well documented deep ties with American companies and the Nazis; as well as America having the second largest population of Nazis (the Buntists) in the mid to late 1930s.

This is a giant problem.

[Mojorabbit]

47. Although I do not agree with much you post

I appreciate that you put up thoughtful posts.
Peace, Mojo

[Cha]

15. "What is happening now should not be - he never killed anyone or planted any bombs,” he added."

Mr Maduro, who like Mr Morales was in Moscow for a two-day energy summit, praised Mr Snowden's actions in leaking information on US spying activities.

hey genius.. Snowden broke his country's laws.. he doesn't have to "plant a bomb or kill anyone" to get his passport revoked. Run your own country.. we have Pres Obama as our President.

thanks flamingdem

[flamingdem]

17. Not to blame Pres. Morales or Pres. Maduro but they were playing with

the idea a bit too much. They probably didn't even know that the media would seize on that for entertainment value. Apparently there are hundreds of office pools about where Snowden will end up!

So even though they didn't mean it we / they / the world forced this narrative on the situation.
The world wants a more exciting action movie and it got one today

[Cha]

34. The world got a taste of blood and they want more..

More!

Only President Obama ain't playin their action movie game. He and his fam just got home tonight.. I imagine they're sleeping and tomorrow he will hit the ground running before they break for a 4th of July party on the White House lawn with Military families, friends, and celebrating Malia's birthday.. FIREWORKS!

[flamingdem]

40. Tone will change due to the holiday

You're right!

[Mojorabbit]

32. You are also not helping the President with this kind of post. nt

[Cha]

38. yeah, I notice facts have a way of upping ODS.

[flamingdem]

41. Guardian having a field day looking to push outrage

They are making bank with ODS I suppose.

Lots of inuendo and leaving out details. Unknowns are able to insinuate anything
with their twitter handle. Then it adds to the outrage narrative.

http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live

[Cha]

42. Oh yeah, it's open season on Pres Obama ..

Get Your Cheap Pot Shots right Here!.. A Dime a Dozen, MFs!

Cheap Gas to throw on your fire! Special on Cheap Whine made from Sour Grapes!

[flamingdem]

44. Lol! I found this en espanol - it's all Bolivian ass covering due to their over reaction

It's this drama about how two countries have said they can flyover (known hours ago) but SPAIN, colonialist SPAIN evil, evil, is the lone hold out because - see Guardian blog - that unknown twitterer implying that they must discuss with their masters in the USA. It's really pathetic people buy into this stuff. But if you read elsewhere you know that Spain had said they'd deal with it at 9am. Their people are getting some sleep and not buying into the scandal at the moment! The foreign minister has to play it up because it will be embarrassing that in the end it was not some big conspiracy, sheesh

Ricardo Patiño Aroca ‏@RicardoPatinoEC

Me dijo que dos de los países europeos ya habían autorizado sobrevuelo y estaba pendiente de un tercero que responderá en 45 minutos.

[Cha]

46. "Overreaction".. 'cause they just weren't that into

Snowden. Lol.. "their masters in the USA".. roflmao! I think all the leaders know who Pres Obama is by now. Fair and wouldn't a hold a fucking grudge if you paid him.

[flamingdem]

36. Is this twitter to be believed? It's 2am in La Paz Bolivia

~AS~ ‏@angelsavant 5h

"@velarde_luis: Local media in #Bolivia reporting that people are protesting outside the French embassy in La Paz #EvoMorales"

[Cha]

45. Speaking of Tweets, Flamingdem and not too OT..

The Lovely Plains @DaRiverZkind

Snowden & Assange Targeted by Mysterious Hacker "The Jester" http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/07/hacker-jester-targets-assange-snowden-ecuador … Plans 2 flush the WikiLeaks founder out of the embassy!"Snowden and Assange Targeted by Mysterious Hacker "The Jester"

http://theobamadiary.com/2013/07/02/home-16/#comments

In a June 26 blog post, the Jester writes that Snowden "is not a goddam hero, here to save Americans from 'the government' because of privacy infringements and breaches of the 4th amendment, he is a traitor and has jeopardized all our lives." He launched a similar tirade against Assange, who has been living in London's Ecuadorean Embassy for more than a year to dodge extradition, writing, "[L]et's not forget Assange isn't seeking asylum because he's some heroic whistleblower or do-gooder. He's wanted for questioning on a rape charge."

In a blog post earlier this week, the Jester wrote that he didn't fear prosecution: "Before you start slinging mud at me about my own activities. Two things to note. I never target the US and If I am arrested, and convicted in due process by a jury of my peers I will consider that justice will have been served."

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/07/hacker-jester-targets-assange-snowden-ecuador

Interesting what goes on and what motivates different people.

[flamingdem]

64. Hmm. Fight fuego con fuego

fire with fire, very interesting!

[Cha]

67. Exactly.

[flamingdem]

39. Question for frequent flyers, pilots on DU

When an aircraft stops in a country not of it's origin, is it inspected as a matter of routine?


Thanks

[Violet_Crumble]

48. I don't think racking up frequent flier points equips someone to be knowledgable about that stuff...

I'd be suspecting strongly that when it comes to air transport for heads of states, the plane and everyone and everything in it falls under that diplomatic immunity thing.

Here's a link to the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Immunity. It may have something about it in there...

http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf

[dipsydoodle]

69. Do you mean like Air Force One for example

[struggle4progress]

52. ... French officials denied Wednesday that France refused to let the plane cross

over its airspace ...
Snowden case: France didn't block Bolivia plane
By ANGELA CHARLTON - Associated Press (AP)
Posted July 3, 2013 at 2:08 a.m., updated July 3, 2013 at 3:36 a.m.
http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2013/jul/03/snowden-case-france-denies-blocking-bolivia/

[struggle4progress]

53. ... French Foreign Ministry spokesman Philippe Lalliot said Wednesday that Morales' plane

had authorization to fly over France. French officials would not comment on why Bolivian officials said otherwise.

Spain's foreign ministry said in a statement Wednesday that the country on Tuesday authorized Morales' plane to fly within its airspace and to make the Canary Islands refueling stop and gave the authorization again on Wednesday morning after Bolivian authorities repeated the request.

A foreign ministry official declined comment when asked if Spain demanded the right to inspect the plane. The Spanish spoke on condition of anonymity because of ministry rules.

Officials in Portugal did not return repeated telephone messages seeking comment and Italian officials were not available to speak on the subject Wednesday morning ...

Snowden Case: France Didn't Block Bolivia Plane
by The Associated Press
July 03, 2013 6:12 AM
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=198257536

[Scurrilous]

70. K & R