I'm ok with a manslaughter verdict

[CatWoman]

2d degree murder in a perfect world.

but it's not a perfect world.

[JI7]

1. what would he get if it's manslaughter ?

[CatWoman]

4. don't know

but hopefully someone knowledgeable will weigh in...

[Voice for Peace]

91. Findlaw: Florida Manslaughter

Penalties and Sentences
Florida state laws establish manslaughter as a second degree felony, which may result in a term of imprisonment for up to fifteen years, a fine of an amount up to $10,000, or both.

If the defendant committed aggravated manslaughter, such as manslaughter of a child or elderly person by culpable negligence, the state treats the offense as a first degree felony, which increases the potential term of imprisonment to a maximum of thirty years.

- See more at: http://statelaws.findlaw.com/florida-law/florida-involuntary-manslaughter-laws.html#sthash.rviSnZLA.dpuf

AND THEN THERE IS THE 10-20-LIFE law
Florida's “10-20-Life” law is a law that requires courts to impose a minimum sentence of 10 years, 20 years, or 25 years to life for certain felony convictions involving the use or attempted use of a firearm or destructive device. If the firearm is an assault weapon or machine gun, they must impose a sentence of 15 years, 20 years, or 25 years to life. The penalty is in addition and consecutive to the sentence for the underlying felony conviction (Fla. Stat. § 775.087).

More at: http://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/rpt/2013-R-0067.htm

Theoretically under the law.. he could go to jail for a long long time.

[Lucinda]

7. I read a post here saying that the prison time could be the same as M2

but I haven't seen it from a state source.

[ChiciB1]

19. Here... From DU Member "Slippery Slope"

ME: Posted at another thread. I have not researched this, I do live in Florida but have no legal background. But why would Sereno suggest manslaughter if Florida law states sentence is same? I certainly do hope he's correct. While I've heard legal eagle's say that following a person you think suspicious IS NOT illegal here in Florida, I myself have had a problem and feel GZ should have let authorities handle this situation. My reaction regarding how GZ handled this has been visceral, and I would probably feel the same way if TM was white/latino or any other race. His actions do give ME a creepy feeling, and if I met him under any circumstances, my intuition would tell me I'd rather not include him in my circle of friends.


Slippery Slope's Post Here:
This post is to explain some details of Florida sentencing laws, specifically the "10-20-Life" law, and how they relate to the Zimmerman trial.

Some people have expressed surprise that this case wasn't plea bargained down to a lesser offense (such as manslaughter), and others have expressed dismay that the prosecution might not be able to convict on second degree murder charges. Understanding the sentencing laws in this case could help provide clarity on these issues.

Slightly simplified; the Florida "10-20-Life" law requires that anybody convicted of a crime that involved shooting another person is going to face a prison sentence of 25 years to life. This sentence is automatic and there is no judicial discretion.

First point: Consider what this means with regards to a plea bargain. GZ was charged with second degree murder. The penalty for this crime is 25 years to life. If GZ had accepted a plea bargain down to manslaughter, he would still be facing 25 years to life. If GZ had accepted a plea bargain down to aggravated battery, he would still be facing 25 years to life. Any "reasonable" plea that could have been offered to GZ would have effectively had the same penalty so there is little incentive in this case to offer or accept a plea.

Second point: What verdict would be a "win" for the prosecution in this case? Although GZ has been charged only with second degree murder, the jury can choose to find him innocent on that charge but guilty on a lesser charge. Under Florida law, there are four possible charges in this case that the jury could convict GZ of:

* Second degree murder
* Manslaughter
* Aggravated Battery
* Battery

Being convicted of any of the first three charges will trigger the "10-20-Life" law. Being convicted of simple battery would not, however aggravated battery under Florida law means "battery with a deadly weapon". Since GZ clearly did use a deadly weapon, it is nearly inconceivable that a jury could find him guilty of simple battery.

Since any of the first three charges trigger the "10-20-Life" law, effectively any one of them is as good as the other for the prosecution. GZ will be facing 25 years to life if convicted of any.

Basically then, there are three outcomes that are a victory for the prosecution and only one that is a victory for GZ.

[NM_Birder]

23. that was awesome. thanks!

[Ruby the Liberal]

44. That was interesting. Isn't 2nd degree a felony though?

Forgive me if I am off path, but a felony conviction carries a lot more baggage than a non-felony conviction, right? (Like voting, gun ownership, etc...)

[ChiciB1]

46. I Don't Think Manslaughter Is A Non-Felony!

I'm not saying I know the law, just posted what another person posted. But a manslaughter conviction does seem to be a felony. It's a felony if you go to jail on a drug charge, so it must be.

There's another post here, but there's a distinction regarding "shooting" & "killing" and it's a question I asked myself.

Someone else may have further info.

[Ruby the Liberal]

49. Oops - you are right.

I just googled it and manslaughter is indeed a felony.

Carry on!

[ChiciB1]

54. Hey, I'm Geting Confusededer & Confusededer!

What do I really know myself??

[Ruby the Liberal]

65. But we are learning, aye?

You don't know if you don't ask.

[ChiciB1]

87. That's What My Teachers Always Told Me!

Justice for Trayvon would be nice, but I'm worried.

[Lucinda]

64. Thankie for the info!

[Voice for Peace]

77. aggravated manslaughter of a child using a firearm

Last edited Wed Jul 3, 2013, 09:52 PM - Edit history (1)

is a minimum mandatory 25 years and possible life.

Edit: I think this may be incorrect but not too far off.
See the FL 10-20-Life law.

[Tx4obama]

118. Heard on TV that since Trayvon was a minor & gun was involved - manslaughter would be 30 years n/t

[Warpy]

2. I'm OK with anything that will get him off the street for a while

and wipe that goddamned smirk off his face.

[HipChick]

6. I want life for a life

He killed an innocent kid..who knows what he might have become...Zimmerman was quite a loser

[Warpy]

8. That is not going to happen and we all know it

but a stretch in the Florida state pen for man1 is going to dash any fantasy he ever had about being one of the good guys.

Maybe Blackwater/Xe/whatever it is now will hire him when he gets out of the can.

[HipChick]

11. If roles were reversed and it TM that had killed Zimmerman

We all know what would happen..LIFE or TM would prob die 'mysteriously' in police custody

How quick we forget Steve Lawerence..

[JohnnyBoots]

15. That case would not be on TV. NT

[NM_Birder]

26. agree, we wouldn't even know about it

[customerserviceguy]

122. He does any prison time

outside of solitary, and you'll get your wish.

[lumpy]

111. I guess the homicide has to be proved to have the proper elements for

sentencing such as intent to committ homicide, in commission of a crime, negligence, and probably a host of others things that have to be hashed out and proven. The old saying let the punishment fit the crime I guess. Some people think there was no element of crime in this case, some do, others don't.
If lying under oath to the detriment of justice for the victim is an element in sentencing, let the punishment fit the crime.

[FiveGoodMen]

3. I'll take what I can get, but I'm not okay with it.

Stalking and shooting someone because you don't like their look is worse than manslaughter.

[RebelOne]

51. Ditto. I agree. n/t

[yardwork]

107. I agree.

[Gravitycollapse]

5. I'm okay with whatever the evidence demands.

[Vattel]

10. me too (and that is acquittal)

[malokvale77]

29. Really

[MH1]

57. Just curious, do you think TM was just REALLY unlucky, but too bad, so sad, life goes on?

(life goes on for other people, that is)

Tough sh*t for his family and friends?

Or do you think he really was a 17-year old criminal who deserved to die?

I'm just wondering if you place any responsibility on George Zimmermann at all.

[Vattel]

101. What I think is that there is loads of reasonable doubt

with respect to the prosecution's claim that Zimmerman's behavior was not justifiable self-defense under Florida law. And that warrants an acquittal. For all I know, Zimmerman is a cold-blooded murderer and Martin would have been the next Gandhi.

[lumpy]

115. You don't believe Zimmerman had no part in being responsible for

the death of the victim? You would only believe the testimony of the killer, disregarding the testimony of witnesses, the circumstances of the event, the intent of the killer, the why of why did this happen. Open and shut case?
Try to stay off jurys please and please don't THINK about going into the law business or even the religious business, please.

[Vattel]

117. I didn't say that I only believe Zimmerman.

You should stay out of any business that requires reading comprehension.

[MH1]

130. Once someone claims "self-defense" they have some burden of proof of that, I think.

I'm not a legal expert, but from seeing other discussions I've gathered that a "self-defense" claim for killing someone requires a different standard for innocence than reasonable doubt.

I've always felt that the second degree murder charge might be a stretch. That implies there was some intent to kill someone right then, at that time. (again, I'm not a legal expert, I might be off on the definition)

BUT, if someone gets drunk and drives their car and kills a child, they're going to jail for awhile. As they should. As I see it, the most favorable to Zimmermann reading of the published evidence is at least equivalent to that situation. They should be able to convict him of some charge along those lines. A child is dead and his actions caused it. (Kind of also similar to leaving a loaded gun in a child's reach and the child kills himself or someone else with it. You can't claim "accident" and get off scot-free when you took on a serious responsibility and failed to act in accordance with that responsibility.)

It's been discussed in the media that he can be convicted of a lesser charge if the jury doesn't convict on second degree murder.

Are you saying that you think he should be acquitted COMPLETELY (as I took your previous comment), or just acquitted of the 2nd degree murder charge?

[Scootaloo]

127. They want Zimmerman to get off, because they appreciate what he did

This "Huff, puff, we have to be completely objective and our complete objectivity tells us he's going ot be acquitted!" is nothing but wishful thinking, and an attempt to portray anyone who disagrees as an irrational yelping dolt.

Not all the dixiecrats turned Republican, I guess.

[lonestarnot]

114. I am creeped out that human hunter could get out conceal carry and look for his next victim.

I know that if I see him following me that I am in fear of my life and he better be faster than me. Snort. just in case because you do not know me.

[DinahMoeHum]

9. I just don't want that fuck to walk. . .

. . .because if he does, the state of Florida is gonna deserve the shit that will follow. And if that shit ultimately topples the current Governor and GOP, so be it.

[premium]

16. If Z walks,

it's because the state couldn't prove it's case beyond a reasonable doubt to the jury.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

40. and Rodney King style riots will break out.

[RebelOne]

52. That is a given. n/t

[premium]

66. I sure hope not,

even Trayvon's parents said early on that this wasn't about race.

If Z is acquitted, I would hope they go on TV, Internet, Radio, whatever and keep people calm

[Vattel]

108. And if that happens (I doubt that it will, but it might), who will be to blame?

Besides the rioters themselves, I will blame the idiots in the media who sparked outrage with bad reporting because they wanted so badly to make the case all about race, and the fry-Zimmerman mob who have fanned the flames of hatred even as the trial itself has made it clear that Zimmerman ought to be acquitted.

[etherealtruth]

68. ... or Wouldn't

[premium]

70. That's a possibility. nt.

[premium]

13. I'll be ok with whatever the evidence shows

and the jury decides up to and including acquittal, I may not like it, but I'll be ok with it, not worth my time fretting over it.

[wercal]

14. Florida Law

Murder 2

2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

Manslaughter

(1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

775.082

(c) For a felony of the second degree, by a term of imprisonment not exceeding 15 years.

[ChiciB1]

21. OK, This Is Different Than The One

I just copied above from the other day. However you do have statute numbers.

Thanks

[ChiciB1]

34. Just Asking....

The one I copied above mentioned "shooting" not just "killing." Does that make a difference? Shooting with gun is not the same and killing. I'm confused.

[wercal]

45. I don't know.

But I'd guess killing trumps shooting...since somebody can be shot and not be killed.

[ChiciB1]

53. No, The Difference I'm Talking About Is That Both

end up as a killing. But use of gun to shoot that ends in a killing is what I'm confused about. Why would one statute say shoot, and the other say kill?

[wercal]

59. I'm having a hard time finding your post

But Idont know.

[ChiciB1]

62. No 5 Down From The Top Of This Thread...

Says copied from Slippery Slope.

[wercal]

74. Ok

Slippery Slope is saying that since the killing involved a gun, FL has an automatic twenty five year minimum, outside of the normal fifteen year max for manslaughter.

I didn't see that at the site I was on.
.it was Sunshine.gov or something like that. I'm on a mobil and can' find it now.

I think he is wrong, since it wasn't cited in what I found...but I don't know for sure.

[Voice for Peace]

79. you can google Florida laws, for example

https://www.google.com/search?q=manslaughter+florida&sugexp=chrome,mod=1&ie=UTF-8

[ChiciB1]

89. Thanks, Should Have Done It Before Now!

Been posting too much about this. Gotta hang it for today. Will try tomorrow though.

[Voice for Peace]

93. You'll be an expert in no time.

I know what you mean.. time for a break.

[Voice for Peace]

78. it is called aggravated manslaughter under certain conditions and the penalty is much greater

aggravated manslaughter of a child (under 18) using a gun is almost the same sentence as 2nd degree murder.

[ChiciB1]

92. Slippery Slope Said The Same...

Good! Fingers crossed.

[wercal]

120. I stand corrected

The next big question - does anyone know for sure if these lesser charges can be considered in FL?

[JohnnyBoots]

17. He should be acquitted.

This case is all race baiting politics. I live in Florida and fully expect riots.

[ChiciB1]

22. I Live Here Too!

And for a very long time! I've already marched in "Justice For Trayvon" marches. If GZ walks, I'll march if needed all over again!

[JohnnyBoots]

82. That's your right

And I respect your non-violent approach to protest what you disagree with.

[Raine1967]

24. You have to be joking.

I cannot believe this comment is allowed to stand here on DU.

[Skittles]

27. lots of racism in Florida

[Raine1967]

33. Understood, but this is DU, not Florida.

saying GZ should be acquitted is different than saying he will because it's Florida.

[JohnnyBoots]

83. Yes, anyone

Who doesn't walk the party line with regard to this trial is a racist. Nice big tent you have there.

[MattBaggins]

104. No but the other comments

about so called race baiting and expecting riots does smell a bit like racism. Crappy sentiments there.

[OwnedByCats]

139. I read the police are making

preparations in case of rioting, are they racist too?

[Skittles]

125. not anyone

just the gun humpers

[OwnedByCats]

140. I know a lot of people who own

firearms and they aren't racist - some of them are blacks too.

Or did you mean some gun humpers are racist?

[billh58]

41. Consider the source. n/t

[premium]

102. Pot. Meet. Kettle.

You're a fine on to talk.

[Hoyt]

25. If there are "riots" it will be bigoted gun loving, Zimmerman supporters in

event he goes down for senseless murder of an innocent kid.

[JohnnyBoots]

81. How am I bigoted? This case is a railroad job.

Innocent kid? He sucker punches a smaller guy, gets on top and starts to ground and pound. Zimmerman was well with in his rights to shoot him. He only fired once, if he really wanted him dead he would have emptied his mag at that close range.

[Hoyt]

84. Read your post if you want to know why you are a bigot.

Minorities aren't going to riot if your buddy gets off. But the bigoted gun nuts might.

[JohnnyBoots]

94. What world do you live in?

Are you that blinded by hate for gun owners? You are one of the most intolerant people on this board. Do you even know the facts of this case? Facts, not hyperbole or spin.

[Hoyt]

97. Yes, I know your buddy is a bigot and trained for the day he could pull his gun

and shoot a black kid, in this case he killed an innocent kid. The gun nuts - who are usually bigots - support Zimmerman because it could have been them.

[JohnnyBoots]

100. I support

Zimmerman because he was well within his rights to shoot someone who attacked him, pinned him down and assaulted him. Your Saint Trayvon was far from innocent.

[Hoyt]

103. Enjoy your friggin guns and Zimmerman love.

[premium]

105. Deep Hoyt, very deep. nt.

[CatWoman]

109. and you, sir, are worse than Zimmerman

[CatWoman]

112. I only hear tea billies refer to him as "saint trayvon"

just saying.....

[aikoaiko]

121. Jury Results

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

At Wed Jul 3, 2013, 09:51 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I support
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3163700

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Alert number 2, same thread, first two in six years here, on the same person. SAINT TRAYVON,,,, seriously.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Jul 3, 2013, 10:02 PM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Not disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. Poster is a complete fucking idiot but he/she has every right to be one. Alerter is a fucking asshole wasting peoples time with weak alerts. Alerter needs to learn how to use the fucking ignore button.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Even though in my opinion the commenter is completely wrong, he/she has a right to their own opinion. I vote to leave it be, let the folks on the thread educate him/her.

Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Looks like an honest difference of opinion to me. I know the general view here at DU is that Zimmerman is guilty, but I understand how someone could honestly come to a different conclusion.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Post is rude, but within the TOS.


Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Meh. Unpopular opinions are not CS violations.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: Ummm . . . No.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Skittles]

126. you're a gun humper

you don't seem to support Trayvon's right to stand his ground against being stalked by a gun-toting vigilante asshole

[MattBaggins]

106. What world does you live in

Are you so blinded by your hatred for minorities you believe they will riot?

[CatWoman]

110. it appears you are the blind one

why are you even here?

[tblue37]

128. ?? You seem to be attacking someone who is on the same side you are on. nt

[CatWoman]

134. by bad; I thought I was responding to "Boots"

[tblue37]

135. I thought that was probably the case.

I figured you would want to know what had happened to avoid unnecessary friction with the poster you accidentally responded to. Such friction can all too easily spoil the relationship between DU posters who are actually on the same side of the issues, and in many cases the animosity gets carried into the future.

[CatWoman]

119. and I hope you get your hyperbole blown out

what a complete jerk.

You supposedly watched the trail and still hang onto your racist, scumbag opinion?

A waste. A complete and total waste.

[RZM]

123. Both of you are completely full of it

The chance of riots if he's convicted is approximately zero. If he walks its slightly higher, but still very low.

Nothing's going to happen no matter what the verdict.

[billh58]

132. The Gungeoneers are

running around DU in a tizzy, and defending their "railroaded" gun toting hero Zimmerman. It appears that the "Z" may become their next celebrity spokesperson -- right up there with Ted Nugent and Uncle Wayne.

[NoGOPZone]

28. Good thing there's no race baiting in your post, huh? nt

[Raine1967]

56. A jury approved of the race baiting. eom

[NoGOPZone]

72. as even more riot predictions come out

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023161938#post40

[russspeakeasy]

30. Please move. We have enough problems in this state.

[malokvale77]

32. Really

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. Wow...I lived within thirty miles of Sanford for most of my life

Sometimes within walking distance of the Sanford city limits.

That being said, I don't care what color you are , should you shoot an unarmed kid in the heart, you better have a damn good reason, and not have done anything to precipitate the altercation that led up to it.

[CatWoman]

42. and you should be ashamed of yourself

[Raine1967]

60. A DU jury let it stand.

This makes me really sad and upset.

I've been here since 2004 and I am stunned that people think this is ok, here, on DU.

[etherealtruth]

63. That is very depressing

[Nevernose]

67. I agree with you.

I'm going to be unreasonably optimistic and hope against reason that the jury just pulled the four biggest jackasses and its a total fluke.

[Amaya]

73. DU sucks

and has for a long time. This place was bombarded by assholes a while ...

I guess I will get my post deleted. But don't give two fucks.
"

[rufus dog]

113. First time EVER

That I have alerted on a post is in this thread. That is in 6 fucking years, as I scroll down there are three others that I am waiting to send alerts.

[rufus dog]

116. Second time EVER!

Same dude, first one a tie, there are two on this thread obviously working together.

[billh58]

133. Yep, you got it.

They swarm out of the right-wing haven on DU called the Gungeon in teams, and post from their prepared NRA scripts.

[Raine1967]

55. Upon further thought...

you make me ill. To be honest, so did these jury results:

Poster is basically saying that Zimmerman should walk because this is all about the 'race card'

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Jul 4, 2013, 10:22 AM, and voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: While I strongly disagree with the opinion expressed in the post, the person posting it is entitled to his opinion, and is entitled to express it.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: So what? Ridiculous alert.

[etherealtruth]

58. Let me guess .....

You frequent the gungeon, right?

[maddezmom]

69. Disgusting post

[B Calm]

90. An armed man shoots a unarmed man

in cold blood and you think he should be acquitted? Hell man, even John Wayne would string him up!

[GreenStormCloud]

141. Cold blood? A fight was going on, therefore it was in hot blood. N/T

[B Calm]

142. A fist fight for two, that turn into a gunfight for one!

Even in the old west they would have called this murder!

[GreenStormCloud]

143. Still not "cold blood". N/T

[B Calm]

144. Martin's blood is cold!

[GreenStormCloud]

146. Not in the sense you used the term. N/T

[RBInMaine]

129. There is a strong manslaughter case, at least. The guy was reckless as hell. That unarmed kid

should not have been killed. This is maddening. He didn't have to die. This was needless. Zimmerman has lied like a rug to try to cover
the obvious fact that he profiled that kid and pursued him with prejudice. He pursued the kid with a loaded gun including one in the chamber after he was told not to do that by the authorities. He is a cop wannabe who went on a hero-seeking vigilante hunt-and-capture mission. Totally reckless. He deserves at least manslaughter under this set of facts.

[GreenStormCloud]

145. Manslaughter would be the appropriate charge.

When he tried to follow TM it ws reasonably foreseeable that a needless confrontation would result, and he would know that such confrontation could involve deadly force. Therefore he ws negligent. A manslaughter conviction would carry as much prison time as murder 2.

[treestar]

131. Right wing talking point

[JohnnyBoots]

136. Isn't anything you disagree with

a right wing talking point? Try thinking for yourself and analyzing facts, not judging based on emotion.

[CatWoman]

137. speaking of which

we know that your "hero" was trained in MMA and that he had a loaded gun, round in chamber ready to fire, and STILL GOT HIS ASS KICKED by an UNARMED skinny black kid.

I understand you now.

You pussies have to stick together. At any cost.

[JohnnyBoots]

138. Miss,

I am far from a pussy. I don't carry, or consider Zimmerman as a hero. You are projecting your own bias into this conversation.

[pnwmom]

18. Was the jury given that option?

I've thought from the beginning that the police ruined the case enough that second degree murder would be tough to prove.

[SlipperySlope]

35. Jury will have the option of manslaughter

Under Florida law, a charge of 2* murder includes the lesser charges of:

* Manslaughter
* Aggravated Battery
* Battery

[YeahSureRight]

20. Any verdict that gets him sent to prison in the General Population for a few weeks is fine with me.

[kestrel91316]

31. I want him to have to serve considerable time in prison with the "fucking punks"

he thinks he has the right to kill with impunity. And then I want him barred from owning a gun ever again.

[Crepuscular]

37. Don't see

how they they get a manslaughter conviction if the self defense claim is the basis for not getting an M2 conviction, self defense is a justifiable exception to both charges, according to the statute. Either the jury does not buy self defense and they get him on M2 or he is going to walk, as the lesser charge also allows justifiable self defense.

[Nevernose]

43. If the jury thinks he's guilty

But his "depraved" state of mind is not proven, it's manslaughter. Speaking very generally, the difference between murder and manslaughter is intent. If I, for instance, got into a fistfight with a guy and accidentally killed him, it would be manslaughter. If I bashed his head into the concrete 30 times, it would probably be murder. If I behaved, well, murderously with a gun, it's obviously murder. But if I merely behaved irresponsibly with a gun, it's probably manslaughter.

Hopefully the State will tie the pieces together in closing, but it's painfully apparent that George Zimmerman is totally full of shit. If it wasn't self-defense, though, it still might not be murder. Did he intend to kill Trayvon, or was he merely an incredibly irresponsible gun owner? If the state fails to prove intent, Zimmerman is still guilty of manslaughter.

[ljm2002]

38. I agree with you...

...I was glad to know he can be convicted of the lesser charge, if the jury doesn't find 2nd degree murder.

I'll be really bummed if he is acquitted though.

[Voice for Peace]

80. I hope he's not acquitted

but if he gets off his life isn't going to be easy.
He might have to go into the nonwitness protection program.

[BainsBane]

39. manslaughter seems to better fit the facts

I haven't seen evidence to support 2nd degree murder, though I haven't watched the full trial.

[Hoyt]

47. Since Martin can't testify, that will likely be outcome UNLESS

one or more jurors are gun lovers and/or bigots. Then, hung jury might result.

[CakeGrrl]

48. The way the game is sometimes rigged, I'll take whatever lands him in jail. -nt

[99Forever]

50. I'm not.

Zimmerman is a murdering scumbag and should never walk outside of a prison wall again.

[MH1]

61. Get him into GP and he might not ever walk outside a prison again

even if his sentence isn't all that long.

Not that I should be happy about it, but I'm only human.

But, they will probably protect his sorry ass by keeping him out of GP. I guess that's a seriously lonely life though.

[Dawson Leery]

71. Zimmerman should never be allowed near any firearm again.

[premium]

76. If he's acquitted,

he'll not only get his firearm back, but he'll also get his CCW re-instated.

[Hoyt]

86. Thanks to the gun cultists.

[premium]

88. Nope,

that's the law.

[Hoyt]

95. Gun cultists back right wing NRA which help write legislation and bribe legislators.

[premium]

96. Right, ok Hoyt,

whatever floats your boat.

[Hoyt]

98. Pre, your problem is that you can't see past the front sight of your gun.

[premium]

99. Hoy, your problem is that you've got a bad memory. nt.

[Honeycombe8]

75. Does the jury have that option? nt

[UTUSN]

85. Me, too. n/t

[bravenak]

124. Me too.

A good long time in prison and revocation of his gun rights.