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ProSense

(116,464 posts)
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 07:14 PM Jul 2013

Why Won’t Anyone Take Edward Snowden?

Why Won’t Anyone Take Edward Snowden?

Because he is a terrible candidate for asylum

By Eric Posner

Poor Edward Snowden! He’s willing to live nearly anywhere, but no country is willing to accept him. Not Ecuador. Not China, Russia, Norway, or Spain. Why not? Because he is a terrible candidate for asylum.

<...>

The problem for Snowden is that these countries wouldn’t gain anything by giving him asylum. He has presumably already revealed everything he knows or is planning to soon. Foreign governments can benefit from these disclosures without doing anything for Snowden in return. Most spies sell their secrets to other countries rather than give them away, and bargain hard for an escape route.

Meanwhile, Snowden is not the type of person you want living in your country. Countries don’t grant citizenship or permanent residence to people they know to be felons. These people are more trouble than they’re worth. For all his IT skills, Snowden is not likely to be an appealing employee to a government or business that might otherwise be able to use them...Any country with an extradition treaty with the United States would probably extradite him—so his efforts to get into Germany or France are pretty pointless. Perhaps, if he reached Cuba or Bolivia, he could stay in one of those countries, in the process giving up the civil liberties that he holds so dear.

Even Snowden’s supporters realize that he must face the music. The Guardian, having wrung him dry of secrets, has solemnly declared that he should be tried albeit as a “whistleblower,” whatever that means. If he returns to the United States, prosecutors can and will charge him under whatever law he broke, and that includes the Espionage Act. He is likely to be convicted, but he has an outside chance of an embarrassing mistrial, a nullifying jury, even a sympathetic judge who goes easy on him in sentencing. Americans have a soft spot for people like Snowden. This country has a long history of unsuccessful prosecutions of dissenters, from the alleged Nazi sympathizer Elizabeth Dilling, to the Chicago Eight, to Daniel Ellsberg. Thoreau, abettors of fugitive slaves, civil rights protesters, and Vietnam-era draft dodgers are honored in historical memory. The founders themselves were traitors who made good. Today, secure but stifling in the embrace of a government that protects us from crime, terrorism, old age, and ill health by keeping track of our every move, we play Patrick Henry and enact harmless mini-rebellions by cheering on people like Snowden and Julian Assange. They defy the system without threatening it.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/view_from_chicago/2013/07/edward_snowden_and_asylum_he_is_a_terrible_candidate.html

Fleeing to Hong Kong didn't help his case.

Carl Bernstein on Monday credited Edward Snowden with sparking a needed public debate about the extent of the government’s secret surveillance programs and said there are “admirable aspects” about what the NSA leaker has done.

<...>

Calling Snowden’s travels and story since releasing information about the National Security Agency’s surveillance programs “operatic,” Bernstein said it may have been better for Snowden if he hadn’t fled the country.

“Civil disobedience is just that. … Indeed that this form of civil disobedience, that he would have done better perhaps for himself and for his case, as we’re now seeing in this opera, to stay in the United States and say, ‘I did this for this reason,’” Bernstein said, noting that Snowden faced a real possibility of a long prison sentence. “It’s a tough call if you’re in his shoes. … He’s got to face the music, and he’s facing them in this odyssey.”

Bernstein also said that most of the programs that Snowden revealed were already known to the public. While Snowden disclosed more about them and put the U.S. in the “spotlight,” the takeaway was that the programs were appropriately run...the program has not been abused and safeguards are in place domestically,” Bernstein said.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/carl-bernstein-edward-snowden-comments-93697.html




54 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Why Won’t Anyone Take Edward Snowden? (Original Post) ProSense Jul 2013 OP
He's a felon? Hunh. I missed that trial. (nt) The Straight Story Jul 2013 #1
There will still be a trial... gcomeau Jul 2013 #3
Does not warrant trial necessarily after NDAA - right? lunasun Jul 2013 #8
That's the same game Al-Awlaki played Azathoth Jul 2013 #6
Well, bush played it well too. Except he didn't have to leave. (nt) The Straight Story Jul 2013 #7
Touché n/t Azathoth Jul 2013 #14
No, there hasn't been a trial and he hasn't been "convicted" of anything. Cha Jul 2013 #27
Because the White House warned 'em not to? MannyGoldstein Jul 2013 #2
Maybe they don't want to be "droned"? tularetom Jul 2013 #4
Too late, the NSA already collects from all those countries... Sancho Jul 2013 #50
maybe other countries are afraid they might get 'liberated' markiv Jul 2013 #5
Didnt Ecuador get reminded about US trade agreements about to expire? Whatever Bolivia was talking lunasun Jul 2013 #10
From the BBC News site djean111 Jul 2013 #9
Thanks for this summary. longship Jul 2013 #12
Of course they don't want him. Galraedia Jul 2013 #11
Good points which genius didn't think of. nm Cha Jul 2013 #24
Considering who cleared and hired him, insults to this guy's intelligence aren't helping you. nt Pholus Jul 2013 #53
why isn't there an opposition party- to the horseshit he outed? upi402 Jul 2013 #13
They don't want to bite the hand that feeds the petrol dollars usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jul 2013 #15
Why wouldn't Iran, North Korea or Syria take him in? They could use his knowledge of the NSA. AlinPA Jul 2013 #16
Would you want to live in any of those, these days? nt MADem Jul 2013 #31
Hell no, but it would feed his ego some more - not to mention his bank accounts which they would AlinPA Jul 2013 #32
I have to say that I wouldn't be surprised if NK or Iran treated ES like a coke can! MADem Jul 2013 #34
Good. Still laughing more each time I read it! AlinPA Jul 2013 #36
Fatten his bank account? Ha ha ha ha. Surely you jest. gholtron Jul 2013 #49
You don't think al-Qaeda, for example would pay to get the information on NSA security processes? AlinPA Jul 2013 #54
Because the Banksters forbid them to. Zorra Jul 2013 #17
Because nobody trusts a traitor n/t eissa Jul 2013 #18
Bingo. BlueCaliDem Jul 2013 #33
K & R Thinkingabout Jul 2013 #52
This is what no one seems to realize. justiceischeap Jul 2013 #37
And nobody likes a snitch. nt Kahuna Jul 2013 #39
American Express . . . Snowden left home without it. Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #19
Because the Admin has let them know how much dirt we have on all of the leaders. Irony. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #20
He has to apply for asylum ON THEIR SOIL leftstreet Jul 2013 #21
Ding ding ding! shawn703 Jul 2013 #22
Sorry, Guardian.. Snowden's not a "whistle blower".. A whistle blower is Cha Jul 2013 #23
What Bernstein missed is that "civil disobedience" has some downsides that Snowden no likey. CakeGrrl Jul 2013 #25
Maybe his supporters here could hide him in their attic. liberal N proud Jul 2013 #26
Or their basements.... MADem Jul 2013 #35
Because the whole world is trying to sign trade agreements with the USA. That is how applegrove Jul 2013 #28
Because we have told them things may pop out about the country that takes him, just by accident. Safetykitten Jul 2013 #29
So why did the Wikileaks attorneys turn away from Snowden? randome Jul 2013 #30
I always loved Carl Bernstein. NOT Bob Woodward. graham4anything Jul 2013 #38
This message was self-deleted by its author Scurrilous Jul 2013 #40
Thanks ProSense. Scurrilous Jul 2013 #41
Thanks. Happy Fourth, and enjoy! n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #45
Where have I heard this gleeful tone before? kenny blankenship Jul 2013 #42
Here ProSense Jul 2013 #43
With international finance and big banks... kentuck Jul 2013 #44
Likely so. But none of them are suicidal enough to send a magic helicopter to lift him out... Hekate Jul 2013 #47
Alone in Kafka's world without a back door out... Hekate Jul 2013 #46
We are all "deeply stupid and unaware"... kentuck Jul 2013 #48
Morales kind of sort of hinted at taking Snowden in Fumesucker Jul 2013 #51
 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
3. There will still be a trial...
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 07:22 PM
Jul 2013

...but it's not exactly journalistic foul play to call him one when he's admitted it to in international media a hundred times. Find something else to object to.

lunasun

(21,646 posts)
8. Does not warrant trial necessarily after NDAA - right?
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 07:36 PM
Jul 2013

I could be wrong but,
If people have spied or suspected of being terrorists, they may be detained indefinitely without trial I thought-

Azathoth

(4,611 posts)
6. That's the same game Al-Awlaki played
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 07:29 PM
Jul 2013

Do something that is manifestly illegal, then deliberately place yourself outside of America's reach and whine that you haven't had a fair trial when they try to get you. Doesn't work.

Cha

(297,406 posts)
27. No, there hasn't been a trial and he hasn't been "convicted" of anything.
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 08:34 PM
Jul 2013

Only his passport has been revoked. Snowden can go back to the USA and clear his name anytime he wants.

tularetom

(23,664 posts)
4. Maybe they don't want to be "droned"?
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 07:23 PM
Jul 2013

Or have the NSA obtain every phone call, e-mail, bank transaction, personnel file, and police record generated within their borders since 9/11/2001.

 

markiv

(1,489 posts)
5. maybe other countries are afraid they might get 'liberated'
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 07:24 PM
Jul 2013

like Iraq was

or economically strangled, like Iran or Cuba

lunasun

(21,646 posts)
10. Didnt Ecuador get reminded about US trade agreements about to expire? Whatever Bolivia was talking
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 07:47 PM
Jul 2013

in Russia didn't play well once off the ground and was airspace bullied by other nations

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
9. From the BBC News site
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 07:42 PM
Jul 2013

Snowden asylum requests:

Rejected: India, Poland, Brazil
Considering: Bolivia, Germany, Italy
Has to be in the country for request to be considered:
Netherlands, Austria, Finland, Iceland, Norway, Spain, Ireland, Switzerland, Ecuador
Unconfirmed: China, France, Venezuela
Withdrawn: Russia
Pending: Nicaragua, Cuba

Galraedia

(5,026 posts)
11. Of course they don't want him.
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 07:47 PM
Jul 2013

You don't engage in anti-U.S. activity on foreign soil - because by proxy you are then engaging that country in anti-U.S. activity. This is why Putin told Snowden to shut his mouth if he wanted to stay in Russia.

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
53. Considering who cleared and hired him, insults to this guy's intelligence aren't helping you. nt
Fri Jul 5, 2013, 09:11 AM
Jul 2013

AlinPA

(15,071 posts)
32. Hell no, but it would feed his ego some more - not to mention his bank accounts which they would
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 09:39 PM
Jul 2013

fatten in exchange for his disclosures of how the NSA processes work. IMO, he is peddling that information or has done so already.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
34. I have to say that I wouldn't be surprised if NK or Iran treated ES like a coke can!
Thu Jul 4, 2013, 01:34 AM
Jul 2013

"Look, look--it says on the side of this guy that the deposit is a million dollars or more--let's see if we can cash him in!!!"

He's gotta be worth a year's supply of surplus wheat, or maybe a sanction relaxation or three!

I imagine Little Kim won't like him unless he can play basketball, and lose the One-on-One's with Fearless Leader!

AlinPA

(15,071 posts)
54. You don't think al-Qaeda, for example would pay to get the information on NSA security processes?
Fri Jul 5, 2013, 10:50 AM
Jul 2013

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
17. Because the Banksters forbid them to.
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 08:03 PM
Jul 2013

The supreme kind of capital, financial capital, began then to develop its strategy of war towards the new world and over what was left of the old. Hand in hand with the technological revolution which placed the entire world, through a computer, on its desk and at its mercy, the financial markets imposed their laws and precepts on the entire planet. The "globalization" of the new war is nothing more than the globalization of the logic of the financial markets. The National States (and their leaders) went from being directors of the economy to those who were directed, better said tele-directed, by the basic premise of financial power: free commercial exchange. Not only that, but the logic of the market took advantage of the "porosity" which in all the social spectrum of the world, provoked the development of telecommunications and penetrated and appropriated all the aspects of social activity. Finally there was a global war which was total!
snip----
The careful and ordered escapade which the "Cold War" handed down, the "new world order" quickly became pieces due to the neoliberal explosion. World capitalism sacrificed without mercy that which gave it a future and a historic project; national capitalism. Companies and States fell apart in minutes, but not due to the torments of proletarian revolutions, but the stalemates of financial hurricanes. The child (neoliberalism) ate the father (national capitalism) and in passing destroyed all of the discursive fallacies of capitalist ideology: in the new world order there is no democracy, liberty, equality, nor fraternity.
-snip====
And when we say "megapolitics" we don't refer to the number of those who move in them. There are a few, very few, who find themselves in this "megasphere". Megapolitics globalizes national politics, in other words, it subjects it to a direction that has global interests (that for the most part are contradictory to national interests) and whose logic is that of the market, which is to say, of economic profit. With this economist (and criminal) criteria, wars, credits, selling and buying of merchandise, diplomatic acknowledgements, commercial blocks, political supports, migration laws, coups, repressions, elections, international political unity, political ruptures and investments are decided upon. In short the survival of entire nations.

The global power of the financial centers is so great, that they can afford not to worry about the political tendency of those who hold power in a nation, if the economic program (in other words, the role that nation has in the global economic megaprogram) remains unaltered. The financial disciplines impose themselves upon the different colors of the world political spectrum in regards to the government of any nation. The great world power can tolerate a leftist government in any part of the world, as long as the government does not take measures that go against the needs of the world financial centers. But in no way will it tolerate that an alternative economic, political and social organization consolidate. For the megapolitics, the national politics are dwarfed and submit to the dictates of the financial centers. It will be this way until the dwarfs rebel . .

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/mexico/ezln/1997/jigsaw.html

BlueCaliDem

(15,438 posts)
33. Bingo.
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 11:43 PM
Jul 2013

Just because Snowden isn't considered a traitor in the U.S., doesn't mean other countries don't see him as such.

justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
37. This is what no one seems to realize.
Thu Jul 4, 2013, 09:11 AM
Jul 2013

If he'll do this to his home country, what keeps him from doing it to a foreign country? He can't be trusted.

Major Hogwash

(17,656 posts)
19. American Express . . . Snowden left home without it.
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 08:14 PM
Jul 2013

You would have thought that after all of those commericals with Karl Malden, Snowden would have known better than to travel abroad without some extra cash.

But now, with so many countries refusing to take secrets stolen from the NSA as down payment on his rent, Snowden is strapped for cash.

Cha

(297,406 posts)
23. Sorry, Guardian.. Snowden's not a "whistle blower".. A whistle blower is
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 08:29 PM
Jul 2013

someone who ..

Moreover, Snowden, to answer a question posed yesterday by Jacob Hayutin on this site, is not a whistle-blower. A whistle-blower is one who reveals to the public wrongdoing, corruption or illegal behavior committed by those in authority, but who also cooperates with investigators as they work to ascertain the veracity of those allegations. Snowden had a chance to properly blow the whistle. He could have reported serious problems associated with the National Security Agency program to Congress under a process established by the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act. The law would have provided Snowden legal protections and given Congress an opportunity to properly investigate the matter without jeopardizing national security.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/jamie-chandler/2013/06/18/nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-is-neither-a-whistle-blower-nor-a-civil-disobeyer

Thank you, Carl Bernstein..

Bernstein also said that most of the programs that Snowden revealed were already known to the public. While Snowden disclosed more about them and put the U.S. in the “spotlight,” the takeaway was that the programs were appropriately run.

“The most important aspect is that so far, as far as we know, the program has not been abused and safeguards are in place domestically,” Bernstein said.


GG and ES mission to destroy Pres Obama is not working. They're only making vindictive asses out of themselves.

Thanks ProSense

CakeGrrl

(10,611 posts)
25. What Bernstein missed is that "civil disobedience" has some downsides that Snowden no likey.
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 08:32 PM
Jul 2013

You know, such as going to trial and facing possible consequences of one's actions. That's the yucky part.

It speaks to the desperation of a Social Security-despising, government-hating Libertarian that they are willing to hide out in some of the most far-Left nations in the world to avoid dealing with the reality they created.

applegrove

(118,724 posts)
28. Because the whole world is trying to sign trade agreements with the USA. That is how
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 08:39 PM
Jul 2013

countries in Europe stopped waring with each other. They traded. Nobody wants to be left out when there is $$$$ to be made with good relations and trade pacts. We know how the rich will do anything where money is concerned. The powers that be in these countries don't want to get on the bad side of most favoured nation status with the USA. Giving Snowdon refuge would be a sign of aggression towards the USA. Only a place like Russia can afford to do that.

 

Safetykitten

(5,162 posts)
29. Because we have told them things may pop out about the country that takes him, just by accident.
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 08:43 PM
Jul 2013

Things like that just happen. Certain things that leaders of counties do not want the world to know.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
30. So why did the Wikileaks attorneys turn away from Snowden?
Wed Jul 3, 2013, 09:10 PM
Jul 2013

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.
[/center][/font]
[hr]

 

graham4anything

(11,464 posts)
38. I always loved Carl Bernstein. NOT Bob Woodward.
Thu Jul 4, 2013, 06:18 PM
Jul 2013

I had always back then wondered why only Woodward was involved in the breadcrumbs tossed by DeepThroat during Watergate,
and later I found out the real reason it was only Woodward, whereas everything else had both their bylines on it.
Bernstein was the real deal reporter. Woodward was, well Bob.

This part cut/pasted from the op second article gets the entire point in 2 1/2 paragraphs-

from the above second link-
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/carl-bernstein-edward-snowden-comments-93697.html

Bernstein said it may have been better for Snowden if he hadn’t fled the country.

“Civil disobedience is just that. … Indeed that this form of civil disobedience, that he would have done better perhaps for himself and for his case, as we’re now seeing in this opera, to stay in the United States and say, ‘I did this for this reason,’” Bernstein said, noting that Snowden faced a real possibility of a long prison sentence. “It’s a tough call if you’re in his shoes. … He’s got to face the music, and he’s facing them in this odyssey.”

Bernstein also said that most of the programs that Snowden revealed were already known to the public. While Snowden disclosed more about them and put the U.S. in the “spotlight,” the takeaway was that the programs were appropriately run...the program has not been abused and safeguards are in place domestically,” Bernstein said.

Response to ProSense (Original post)

kenny blankenship

(15,689 posts)
42. Where have I heard this gleeful tone before?
Thu Jul 4, 2013, 07:44 PM
Jul 2013


Oh yes! Now I remember.
Victor Laszlo will never leave Casablanca - alive.

kentuck

(111,106 posts)
44. With international finance and big banks...
Thu Jul 4, 2013, 07:48 PM
Jul 2013

The world is very inter-connected and every country seems to have financial interests just about everywhere. They have their own self-interests to worry about. They don't have time for this type of intrigue. At least, most of them. We will soon find out if it is all of them. I think if there is a country that will take Snowden, it will be in Latin America. They are so pissed off right now.

Hekate

(90,747 posts)
47. Likely so. But none of them are suicidal enough to send a magic helicopter to lift him out...
Thu Jul 4, 2013, 08:05 PM
Jul 2013

... and through Putin's airspace to their embassy in Moscow, are they?

Putin has his OWN interests at heart, and he is not a stupid man. He doesn't "need" to kowtow to Uncle Sam or anyone else, but he casts a cold, cold eye on all chances. He's gotten everything he wants out of Snowden, including the deeply unsurprising news that US intelligence is interested in the doings of the former USSR, and now he owes nothing to Snowden at all.

Hekate

(90,747 posts)
46. Alone in Kafka's world without a back door out...
Thu Jul 4, 2013, 07:54 PM
Jul 2013

Some parts of his brain may be genius, but other parts are apparently deeply stupid and unaware of the Real World.

kentuck

(111,106 posts)
48. We are all "deeply stupid and unaware"...
Thu Jul 4, 2013, 08:23 PM
Jul 2013

when confronting the NSA and the CIA. Information is knowledge and knowledge is power.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
51. Morales kind of sort of hinted at taking Snowden in
Fri Jul 5, 2013, 08:41 AM
Jul 2013

We see how that worked out.

I wonder if Bolivia dropped the dime about Snowden on the plane to the European nations in order to punk them?

That would be delicious.

Pity we'll never really know.

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