Time line of events from what we have been told in the news so far...Evo Morales my interpretation

[Drew Richards]

Evo made an off record comment that Snowden was welcome in his Country...

His pilot...ALL pilots must submit a flight plan prior to take off...

They had a scheduled stop in portugal to refuel before crossing the Atlantic...Standard procedure before cross atlantic flights...get refueled nearest the coast in a direct flight path to destination.

Mid-flight when they got to French/Italian air space they were DENIED passage and flew in circles burning fuel...

They were then additionally, notified that Portugal would NOT let them land to refuel at their scheduled stop...if you bother looking at a map you will see why that was their refueling stop duh...

So here we are flying in circles and being denied right of way or landing rights at their designated stop for a bullshit reason or no explainable reason...now they are being told to readjust their flight plan and land where they are directed to in another Country!...they refused...back to flying circles demanding right of way across French, Italian air space...

As a good pilot would and knows, he does not have enough fuel for the trans atlantic flight so he declares a non emergency equipment failure to try to get a landing permit to access a fueling stop in Spain or Portugal...he is STILL denied access to French Italian, Spanish airspace and landing rights in Portugal...and is directed....DIRECTED to land in Austria...once on the ground he is refueled but DENIED clearance to take off again for 13 hours because the Austrian authorities and the Italian attache want to inspect the plane...Evo Morales REFUSES they drag on until the Bolivian minister threatens to go public to a French attache who after these 13 hours captive on the grounds of Austria gets confirmation AND an apology from the French president that he didn't "AUTHORIZE" his flight through french airspace earlier...

By the way for those directionally impaired Austria would be out of the way and the least desirable flight path for refueling out of a nominal trans-atlantic stop in Portugal or Spain to Bolivia...they would not bother refiling in France or Italy that is still too far a distance for a reliable or "comfortable" RESERVE fuel load when crossing the Atlantic Ocean to Bolivia....

So let me ask a dumb question to all you posers defending this shit...

Since when the fuck does the French President have to "authorize" flights through French national air space?? NEVER unless it was DENIED in the first place...

Since when does the Italian Minister have to bother with a denial denial if there was not truth in denying access to Italian air space...

Why is Spain not providing ANY response...just a flat denial that they refused air rights...

Who the fuck exactly refused landing at the designated Portuguese stop and what was the justification for informing them hours into a flight that they would be denied landing rights but...hey if you want to try it you can fly through our air space...lol...what bullshit.

So what we have is a collusion of the stinky "foot" states in the Atlantic BLOCKING a diplomatic plane from completing its registered flight path with no explanation and NO legal Justification...again...A DIPLOMATIC FLIGHT...and they requested to inspect the plane? screw all you defenders...this breaks about 7 International laws and treaties on dealing with diplomatic attaches and property...

There is also an additional report that a US diplomat allegedly demanded that the plane be searched while on the ground in Austria if so...that son of a bitch should be taken to the Hague and lets find out where his orders came from...

This stinks to high heaven and I never expected such disregard of INTERNATIONAL LAW from this administration or ANY administration from the US...I guess this country really is fucked...

[Zorra]

1. Yep. Lots of WTF?s throughout this fiasco, few sincere answers. nt

[BlueStreak]

73. You ask good questions, but once again, it is a diversion from the real story

Anything that does not talk about the information that Snowden has exposed is a diversion, even if well intentioned.

What he has exposed is the real truth that most of us have known. Our goddamned government is out of control, run by the Security Industrial complex, not by the President or Congress. That is the story. And the fact that Obama has folded completely on this issue (and most other issues recently) should give every American great concern. Even if you didn't like Obama's policies on other matters, it is in no citizen's best interests to have these unelected, unaccountable assholes running things.

[CrispyQ]

83. We've learned that Congress & the Presidency are just icons to maintain the appearance of democracy.

Did you know John Roberts is also chief justice of the NSA’s surveillance state?

DU thread on the topic, which could use some love: http://www.democraticunderground.com/101667733

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/07/05/did-you-know-john-roberts-is-also-chief-justice-of-the-nsas-surveillance-state/

To use its surveillance powers — tapping phones or reading e-mails — the federal government must ask permission of the court set up by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. A FISA judge can deny the request or force the government to limit the scope of its investigation. It’s the only plausible check in the system. Whether it actually checks government surveillance power or acts as a rubber stamp is up to whichever FISA judge presides that day.

The 11 FISA judges, chosen from throughout the federal bench for seven-year terms, are all appointed by the chief justice. In fact, every FISA judge currently serving was appointed by Roberts, who will continue making such appointments until he retires or dies. FISA judges don’t need confirmation — by Congress or anyone else.

[cantbeserious]

2. Thanks For The Summary - The Egg On US Face Is Obvious

eom

[Catherina]

3. Nice summary. Here's another piece for you. It was the US Ambassador who called Austria FM

It was very thoroughly coordinated.

Related thread: White House Dares EU Leaders to Rat On United States in Morales Flyover Affair

US Requested that Vienna Extradite Snowden

03.07.2013 | 21:28 | HELMAR DUMBS UND CHRISTIAN ULTSCH (Die Presse)

Bolivian President Morales was forced to land in Vienna. NSA whistleblower Snowden was suspected to be on his jet. In a telephone conversation with the Foreign Office, the U.S. ambassador demanded they extradite him.

...

Here's the crucial section:

Sie landete gegen 23 Uhr. Kurz danach ging im Wiener Außenamt ein dringlicher Anruf ein. Am anderen Ende der Leitung: US-Botschafter William Eacho. Wie "Die Presse" erfuhr, behauptete er mit großer Bestimmtheit, dass Edward Snowden an Bord sei, der von den USA gesuchte Aufdecker jüngster Abhörskandale. Eacho habe auf eine diplomatische Note verwiesen, in der die USA die Auslieferung Snowdens verlangten.

Translated:

It landed about 11 pm. Shortly after that, the Vienna foreign department received a phone call. The caller was the US ambassador William Echo. "Die Presse" learned that he claimed with strong firmness that Edward Snowden was onboard, the whistleblower of the recent surveillance scandals. Eacho referred to a diplomatic note requesting Snowden's extradition.


http://diepresse.com/home/politik/aussenpolitik/1426275/USA-verlangten-von-Wien-Snowdens-Auslieferung?_vl_backlink=/home/politik/aussenpolitik/1416110/index.do&direct=1416110

[Drew Richards]

6. THANK YOU! I got so sick after reading all of the links and docs I just didn't have the energy

To document this further but that is a very important and crucial piece of information...He needs to be taken to the world court to explain his communique and exactly HOW he was informed that Snowden was possibly on the plane...in addition what or who gave him the orders to defy International Law and demand the plane inspected for Snowden...

[JDPriestly]

27. Thanks again, Catherina.

Great work on your part.

[Arctic Dave]

4. K&R for a great post.

The zombie army will be here shortly to say it was all made up. Fuck those shitbags.

[ZombieHorde]

94. Hey! nt

[Arctic Dave]

96. Not your zombie army, the other zombie army.

[ZombieHorde]

99. OK. But if you're not careful, we're coming for your BRAINS!!!!! nt

[dkf]

5. Can't wait to see the BS from the fixer crew.

[flamingdem]

7. You are wrong on most of your timeline and facts, please read this esp. Atlantic Mag. article linked

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023168312

[ohheckyeah]

8. Why not make your argument instead of sending us to a link

with a link?

[rhett o rick]

70. Is that a rhetorical question? nm

[ohheckyeah]

71. Pretty much. n/t

[rhett o rick]

72. I have never gotten an answer. nm

[ohheckyeah]

74. Me either and didn't much expect one....

but being the eternal optimist, I thought I would at least ask.

[treestar]

89. What a snotty exchange

You could go read the link, because that is where the argument is. What a dodge.

[dkf]

9. Lol...I was waiting for your arrival.

[flamingdem]

10. I saw

You are another one of my fans, I know

[cantbeserious]

14. Your Article Has Been Debunked

eom

[flamingdem]

25. Where? Link?

[tblue37]

69. You should put that "eom" (or an "nt") into the *subject line* of the post.

The whole point of including "eom" ("end of message&quot or "nt" (no text) is to considerately let the reader know that the subject line is all there is to the post.

In other words, "eom" indicates that there is no further message in the message box, so the reader shouldn't waste his/her time clicking the message open to read more text that is not there.

By putting "eom" in the message box, you defeat the entire purpose of using the abbreviation.

[dkf]

15. You should add maps. :)

[HooptieWagon]

47. and such as....

[Drew Richards]

17. HAHAAH you are using the Atlantic as your refuting source...ok I read it and it is as true or valid

As every other source I have read...he said she said...no on the record proof...

So explain this to me...which that article did NOT explain either...

If they redid their flight plan to refuel in Lisbon..what happened? Why were they unable to fly across France or Italy to get to Lisbon?

Why did they have to land in Austria?

Now contort yourself in a pretzel and speak out both sides of your mouth...

Your article is a piece of oh what do they call it...

Oh yeah and please explain to me why they were "delayed" for 13 hours on the ground in Austria?

[flamingdem]

24. You didn't read the first post about Portugal in my DU thread

The Bolivians and Portugese were back and forth for 2 days about a technical something or other about refueling. It's all there. The Portugese blame the Bolivians for not filing another flight plan before they left as they'd been given information that they couldn't do whatever technical thing in Portugal.

Why did they have to land in Austria?

Bolivia claimed that France, Portugal, Spain and Italy blocked the plane from flying over their territories, forcing the unscheduled stopover in Vienna.

Claim is not the same as it was a fact.

[JDPriestly]

33. If your story is true, why did the French apologize and change their mind?

Because Bolivia threatened to take France, Italy, Spain and Portugal to the international court in The Hague. OK. How's your German? This article is dated 07/04/13.

La Paz/Wien/Genf - Die Botschaft Boliviens bei den Vereinten Nationen in Genf hat eine Meldung der Nachrichtenagentur Reuters richtiggestellt, wonach Botschafter Sacha Llorenti Soliz angeblich erklärt hatte, Österreich habe den bolivianischen Präsidenten Evo Morales auf Befehl der USA"gekidnappt" und mit dieser Aktion einen "Akt der Aggression" begangen und das Völkerrecht verletzt.

(The Bolivian ambassador to the UN in Geneva corrected a news release from Reuters according to which Ambassador Sacha Llorenti Soliz supposedly had explained that Austria had the Bolivian Presdietn Evo Morales pursuant to an order from the USA "kidnapped" and with that action and "act of aggression" conducted and violated international law.)

In einer am Donnerstag dem österreichischen Innenministerium und der APA übermittelten Erklärung heißt es dagegen: "Es gibt kein Problem in den Beziehungen mit Österreich. Wir sind im Gegenteil dankbar, dass wir dort landen konnten. Der Ärger Boliviens richtet sich gegen die USA und die Länder, die das Präsidentenflugzeug gehindert haben, durch ihren Luftraum zu fliegen".

According to a statement Thursday provided by the Austrian Minister of the Interior and the APA. "There is no problem in the relationship with Austria. We are, to the contrary, thankful, that we could land there. THE ANGER (OR FRUSTRATION) OF BOLIVIA IS DIRECTED TO THE USA AND THE COUNTRIES THAT PREVENTED THE PLANE OF THE PRESIDENT TO FLY THROUGH THEIR AIR SPACE." (My caps, JD Priestly. Just to make it clear to you.)

Morales, der bis Mittwoch Mittag rund 13 Stunden auf dem Wiener Flughafen festgesessen war, war von Bundespräsident Heinz Fischer und Außenminister Michael Spindelegger (ÖVP) besucht worden. Vor seiner Weiterreise hatte sich Morales für die "exzellente Behandlung" durch Österreich bedankt. (APA, 4.7.2013)

Morales who sat for 13 hours beginning Wednesday at noon in the Vienna airport was visted (there) by Austrian President Heinz Fischer and Foreign Minister Michael Spndelegger (conservative Christian People's Party). Before continuing his journey, Morales thanked Austria for the excellent treatment.

http://derstandard.at/1371171637073/Bolivien-Kein-Problem-mit-Oesterreich

OK now, flamingdem, did that clear things up?

I reported from an online newspaper from Bolivia earlier today. I will try to find my reference to that article. Perhaps Spanish is more accessible to a lot of people than German (although I think German is very easy for English speakers to learn because so many of the words look like ours if you read it for a while.)

[flamingdem]

36. Which story do you mean? In the comments on the DU OP I posted I say

that the situation with France is the only one not explained at this point.

That one could be any number of factors, the apology makes it look like they blocked the Bolivians but even that might have a caveat. They're implying that they didn't know who it was. The French Minister who apologized said that once he knew it was Morales' plane he was fine with it.

I think we need to know more about France.

Portugal is explained, there never was an issue with Spain.

[JDPriestly]

64. Here is the story.

This article was written after Morales had arrived home in Bolivia and was available on the French website of Le Monde. I posted this last night on another thread. I have corrected typos I made when I first posted this late last night.

The refusals of four European countries (France, Portugal, Spain and Italy) to open their air space followed a rumor that the computer technician, American Edward Snowden, sought by the US for espionage was aboard the presidential plane. That refusal elicited the anger of the Bolivians and a wave of protests by the South American governments.

Before quitting Moscow, where Morales attended a meeting of gas producing nations, Mister Morales said that he would be able to approve Snowden's request for political asylum to Bolivia (a request made as well as to 20 other countries, including France), if it should be received.

. . . . (Demonstrators were outside the French embassy apparently.)

In reprisal, the Bolivian Parliament is going to also demand the expulsion of the ambassadors of France, Portugal and Italy.

Le refus de quatre pays européens (France, Portugal, Espagne et Italie) d'ouvrir leur espace aérien faisait suite à une rumeur faisant état de la présence à bord de l'avion présidentiel, qui rentrait de Moscou, de l'informaticien américain Edward Snowden, recherché par les Etats-Unis pour espionnage. Un refus qui a suscité l'ire des Boliviens et une vague de protestation parmi les gouvernements sud-américains.

Avant de quitter Moscou, où il assistait à une réunion de pays producteurs de gaz naturel, M. Morales avait dit qu'il pourrait approuver la demande d'asile politique qu'a adressée M. Snowden à la Bolivie (ainsi qu'à vingt autres pays, dont la France), lorsqu'il l'aurait reçue.

. . . . (Demonstrators were outside the French embassy apparently.)

En représailles, le Parlement bolivien va en outre demander l'expulsion du pays des ambassadeurs de France, du Portugal et d'Italie.


http://www.lemonde.fr/ameriques/article/2013/07/03/une-rumeur-sur-snowden-provoque-une-crise-diplomatique-entre-paris-et-la-paz_3440849_3222.html

I would be surprised if the ambassadors are actually thrown out. I think that is just an empty threat that expresses displeasure.

It's possible that the French newspaper is wrong, but that is what it says.

Also, reprisal is a diplomatic term.

A reprisal is a limited and deliberate violation of international law to punish another sovereign state that has already broken them.[1] Reprisals in the laws of war are extremely limited, as they commonly breached the rights of civilians, an action outlawed by the Geneva Conventions. It is not to be confused with retorsions, as these constitute unfriendly acts generally permitted by international law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reprisal

Der Standard has many pictures of Morales' press conference in Vienna, Schwechat airport. The Viennese are really trying to make up for the fact that Morales had to spend so long there. The Austrian president went to the airport to meet Morales.

Morales seems to have very little concern for protocol and appears to be a guy who likes the give and take of politics and thinks it is fun. He seems very likable from the photos of him in the Vienna airport that I have seen in Der Standard -- like just a really nice person. That's just my visual impression -- could be totally wrong.

http://derstandard.at/r4438/Cremers-Photoblog

[7962]

41. France says they did NOT refuse overflight.

Evo is just like Chavez and one of my old ex girlfriends......drama queens.

[flamingdem]

46. The drama queen thing will get you accused of

1. being homophobic, the alert crew will come by shortly
2. being racist, just got put on ignore by DUers calling me racist for questioning the Bolivian narrative

Please carry on. We need more honest people telling it like it is, not how they want it to be in their world

[7962]

54. Wow, really? Jeeze, I said LIKE an old girlfriend! How could anyone think that to be homophobic?

Wouldnt Evo have to BE gay before i could be called a homophobe? But youve posted much more than I have so point, and experince, taken.

[flamingdem]

56. There is an issue here with Glenn Greenwald

Some of us call him GG or GeeGee as in gee golly gee gee whiz whatever. But a certain crew is offended by that and say it's homophobic, Greenwald is openly gay.

So yesterday a post was hidden over that, pretty ridiculous. Gigi maybe but not Geegee. It's about certain people here who are constantly in attack mode, they used to have their own site i believe, but they returned here. Also, there are many Libertarians, or super duper left or whatever here, some are really right wing trolls and they come around to create havoc. Of course this is what keep DU entertaining!

[HooptieWagon]

50. Then why did France apologize for denying Morales airspace?

[7962]

57. Here's one link to what I read

"French officials denied Wednesday that France refused to let the plane cross over its airspace amid suspicions that Snowden was aboard. Spain, too, said the plane was free to cross its territory."


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/france-denies-blocking-bolivian-plane-amid-rumours-nsa-leaker-snowden-was-aboard/article12944918/

[HooptieWagon]

68. France apologizes.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874

A "misunderstanding" that was cleared up after Morales's plane ran low on fuel and was forced to land.
And the countries involved in denying airspace have reportedly told Bolivian govt in private that they were acting under pressure from the CIA.

[Drew Richards]

44. And being denied authorization to take off for 13 hours? Or should we just blame it on

Those crazy inefficient Austri
ans...lol.

[flamingdem]

48. You are wrong on most everything, that is because it was midnight and they didn't

have a working flight plan and were waiting to speak to Spain, arranged for 9am

[treestar]

90. Still raises issues

While no one can prove what happened, too many are willing to convict so to speak on suppositions and could haves.

[JDPriestly]

28. Catherina's timeline is from the Austrian news media and from the Boivian news media.

Atlantic is an American magazine and doesn't know what it is talking about.

[dawg]

42. Atlantic is owned by a self described "neocon".

Check the Wikipedia entry for the Atlantic if you don't believe me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Atlantic

[JDPriestly]

67. No wonder.

Obama lowered himself in my esteem with this play against Snowden. There certainly must be more dignified ways to handle the situation. What happened makes the US look scared, small and heavy-handed. In the short run, it will take care of a flea in the ear. In the long run, it will do great damage to our country. I hate to say that, but this awkward fiasco is the stuff history is made of. Oh, dear.

If Snowden comes back to the US and faces trial, we will look like bullies. If he remains free and talks a lot, Obama apparently thinks his administration and who knows what else will be harmed. And if Snowden stays in Russia and is silenced, the files have probably already been distributed who will anonymously but slowly and surely leak them.

Evil is its own punishment. And these vast spying programs are sheer evil. The more people involved in an evil scheme, the more likely news of the scheme will get out. And this scheme is really evil and apparently involves thousands if not hundreds of thousands. Someone was bound to start talking sooner or later.

Evil is its own punishment.

[Recursion]

11. Portugal denied the refuel a week ago

So they took off knowing they couldn't refuel there. Does that alter your theory?

[zeemike]

18. Link to how you know that please.

And why would the ATC approve the flight plan if they knew that?
Sounds like more bullshit to me.

[Recursion]

29. A statement from the Portuguese government

http://www.jornaldenegocios.pt/economia/detalhe/governo_portugues_autorizou_sobrevoo_mas_proibiu_aterragem_de_aviao_de_evo_morales.html

[flamingdem]

37. Thanks Recursion

Good link, good research.

[7962]

49. Except that I cant speek Portugese! Unless theres a translator and i cant find it

[zeemike]

45. Well here is the translation of the first paragraph..

"Aircraft with the Bolivian president landed in Portugal to refuel on the trip to Moscow. In return, the Portuguese government banned the landing "technical considerations". New scale will be in Las Palmas."

So he could have landed and refueled in Las Palmas if he was allowed to fly over
France or Spain to get there...but that was not allowed was it?
Your point ia moot

[okaawhatever]

19. EXACTLY. They were approved for refueling at an island near the N African coast of a Portugese

protectorate. They were told by France and Spain that they could fly over (didn't request refueling) if they would assure Snowden wouldn't be on the flight. This is all a bunch of PR bullcrap by Morales. The pilot knew what the approved flight path was. They also have the right to not allow a flight over their airspace if there is concern that they may want to land and they'll have a diplomatic cluster waiting to sort things out. The indignant "why wasn't he allowed" meme is laughable? Every country has the right to protect their airspace, and to not give approval to someone who's carrying a person who has caused harm to their country. France was thrown under the bus by Snowden, and then they're supposed to bend over for Morales? Give me a break.

[flamingdem]

38. They were approved for Las Palmas, Spain not a Portugese protectorate btw n/t

[Drew Richards]

20. even if their first choice in portugal was refused for "technical" reasons...

According to the "experts" Lisbon was approved...That too is in Portugal...but somehow they could not get there...perhaps because they couldn't fly across france or italy to get there...

Sure you can refuel here on the tip of portugal...you just gotta get here first...buwahhahah...

I swear Recursion I am not one of those conspiracy freaks...this just seems really suspect.

[Recursion]

30. What seems suspect to me is how quickly people forget the crazy shit Morales has said in the past

and I like the guy, mind you. If Spain and Portugal both say they never denied him clearance, I take their word on that.

[roody]

95. What crazy shit has he said?

[Recursion]

98. That the US killed Chavez, for one

The "eating chicken makes you fat and gay thing" is taken out of context (he was talking about hormones in chickens) but it's bad enough optics it makes me question his press sense.

[flamingdem]

39. No, Las Palmas, Spain was approved, this hasn't been disproven

They refueled there the next day after a confirming phone call at 9am

[JDPriestly]

35. What languages do you read? Do you have a link to a Portuguese news source and can you translate it

please. Thanks.

Because I read the Austrian and Bolivian news media, and they tell a different story.

In the Bolivian newspaper I even read that, in Vienna, the Spanish ambassador asked to go inside Morales' plane and that he refused.

Please read the posts that Catherina and I and others have posted from the newspapers.

[pinboy3niner]

12. This thread is no good without a map

[Drew Richards]

21. here you go try this one

http://geology.com/world/world-map.shtml

[Coyotl]

22. Yes, for the geographically illiterate. For the educated, it is not an issue.

Doesn't everyone know where the countries in the world are?

Oh wait, you are talking about people in the USA.

[Fumesucker]

32. Here you go

[pinboy3niner]

34. Bingo!

[HardTimes99]

62. For the 'U.S. Americans and such as' :) - nt

[zeemike]

13. And there needs to be a congressional investigation

Into why our ambassador did that.
But I won't hold my breath.

[mindwalker_i]

23. Our congress?

Fortunately I can jokingly assure you that they'll get right on that. If they did, then I'd really be afraid. Issa on (more) crack.

[flamingdem]

40. Ambassador Eacho? There is only one online source for that story, zero other confirmation

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. It sounded great at the time to have an Ambassador barking orders, but think about it no one even knew that the Bolivians would go to Austria

[zeemike]

52. You do know that a plane in the air can't chose where to land don't you?

ATC controls that not the pilot.
So if this was set up, then yes they knew he would land in Austria...what choice would he have if France and Spain would not let him in.

[flamingdem]

53. Spain said they could refuel in Las Palmas

Spain didn't deny them entry

[zeemike]

55. So the pilot decided to land in Austria

to create an incident and the Austrians held the plane there to help Moralis to create it?...And France had "technical problems" too that they later apologized for.
Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.
And Air Traffic Control was in on it too.
It is amazing the contortions some people will go through to keep from pulling their head out of the sand.

[flamingdem]

59. You're behind the 8 ball, if you want to play you need to focus on a specific thing and use links nt

[zeemike]

65. Well I am not playing a game.

This is about truth and that is not a game.
And the truth is that no head of state has ever been treated like this....and you seem to think it is a game to play to win some political points.
And you seem to want to convince us it was a conspiracy by that evil Evo Moralis to embarrass the US....with bullshit dissembling rationalizations

[go west young man]

104. You won't convince em.

The delusion is massive and deep seated (as nationalism usually is). For their theory of "Morales' nefarious action" to take place he must have been extremely lucky for all these countries to play along at the moment he implemented his "diabolical plan" to embarrass the United States! That's the reverse take on things.

And of course there's this in the Guardian UK today. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/05/european-states-snowden-morales-plane-nsa Excerpt: Spain says it and other European countries were told that the NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden was on board the Bolivian presidential plane that was diverted to Austria this week, causing a diplomatic row.

The foreign minister, José Manuel García-Margallo, said on Spanish National Television on Friday that "they told us that the information was clear, that he was inside".

The minister did not say who supplied the information and declined to say whether he had been in contact with the United States. But he said European countries' reactions were based on this information.

And then there's Die Presse today in Austria reporting the US ambassador was responsible. Can you Morales conspiracy theorists refute these articles for the rest of us lost souls? http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2013/07/05/us-ambassador-to-austria-reportedly-responsible-for-false-claim-snowden-was-on-bolivian-leaders-plane/

[zeemike]

105. You are right of course.

And I will never convince them...and that it is related to nationalism...but it only occurred to me when you said it.

[HangOnKids]

88. You Need To Stop Playing With Your Magic 8 Ball

It is getting shit all WRONG!

[Democracyinkind]

78. Simply untrue.

Press-wise, it doesn't get more official than an inquiry by APA.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023170429

[leftstreet]

60. Why...is Morales on steroids?

That's the only Congress seems to investigate

[silvershadow]

16. International law, you say? How quaint (Cheney's word, not mine-different but similar deal). nt

[Peace Patriot]

26. Great post, Richards! Thanks so much! nt

[rusty fender]

31. Kick

[ReRe]

43. As Joe Biden would say... "It's a big fucking deal, Mr Richards"...

K&R

... This country doesn't believe in "International Law" anymore. GWB threw that out before he invaded Iraq. It's our way or the highway diplomacy now. (I wish I could call that sarcasm.)

Really, they chose wrong when they started picking on Evo Morales. Actually, that was a very dangerous situation up there in the air. It could have been interpreted as a "first strike."

[HooptieWagon]

51. Obama has major egg on his face.

And his arrogant refusal to apologize for an act of war is gonna hurt us badly when we need future cooperation from other nations. This is much more serious than shrub groping Chancellor Merkel.

[morningfog]

58. I still stunned it happened. What won't the US do if they will force down a presidential plane?

And are they trying to make an example of SNowden or are they afraid of what else he has to release.

Regardless, this is very bad.

[flamingdem]

61. After all this you're still pushing the forced down a plane story?

No one forced down a plane.

[HooptieWagon]

66. Denying a plane airspace to its destination, and forcing it to circle until low on fuel

is forcing the plane down. Especially when the plane is met on the ground with a demand to inspect. You can post all the Moscow road maps you want, and it doesn't change the facts.

[Savannahmann]

76. Shhhh

You'll ruin the image of a big parking lot where planes can pull in. Then you'll go and ruin the image that flying a plane is no different than getting in your car. You just pull on the road, and no big deal.

[HooptieWagon]

63. Obama is very afraid of what Snowden is still holding, to become that unhinged.

I suspect its something that could bring down his Presidency. He's treading on VERY thin ice, legally, with the surveillence program.

[Little Star]

79. It doesn't appear to be true that president obama welcomes this conversation like he...

originally said, does it?

[HooptieWagon]

81. Yep. He's said a lot of shit that has proven false.

I haven't seen such secrecy, lying, and coverup since Nixon. Didn't end well for him. We should be bracing for similar.

[Civilization2]

106. +2

[Savannahmann]

75. Excellent

Points many of us have been making by bits and pieces, nice work in putting it all together.

[MjolnirTime]

77. You're going to piss your pants when they catch Snowden. Aren't you?

[HooptieWagon]

80. Not really.

Snowden is merely the messenger. The message has already been passed on, meaning Snowden is no longer relevent. However, when more of the message is released...evidence Obama is conducting unconstitutional surveillence....then you'll be pissing your pants. Obama's actions are definitely those of someone hiding something. He already looks bad, and its only going to get worse.

[leftstreet]

86. 'Catch' him? Is he being pursued? n/t

[HangOnKids]

91. Is that something you do often?n/t

[cali]

93. your contribution to du is sadly lacking

you post nothing but this kind of crappy response and false accusations about people being "Obama haters".

[mn9driver]

82. Nope.

I'm not going to get into the authorization and who was behind denying passage. I'm just going to address the flight path of the aircraft because that is what I do for a living.

The Falcon was at cruise altitude and remained at cruise speed until it began to descend to land. It did not "circle". It turned 180 degrees while still maintaining cruise altitude and airspeed, then descended and manuevered for an approach and landing in a very standard way.

Airplanes are not elevators. To descend from 40,000 feet takes more than 120 miles of ground track and more than 30 minutes. If the field you decide to land at is close by, circling is unavoidable. In fact it's often the case that the nearest field by distance is not the nearest field by time. This is just a natural fact of high altitude jet aviation.

It IS possible to come down faster using emergency procedures, but it is very uncomfortable and can potentially injure the occupants due to pressurization issues. They didn't do that.

Again, not saying anything about the larger issues surrounding the flight. Just pointing out that the radar record shows a normal flight track until a decision was made to turn back to a logical divert field for whatever reason.

[Laughing Mirror]

87. WashPost's screenshot of the flight

Does this look right?

[mn9driver]

97. Yes, that looks correct. nt.

.

[sibelian]

84. They have no real case, just scraps of flim flam.

It's perfectly obvious what's happened.

[caseymoz]

85. You don't expect such disregard?

For a country that's orchestrated coups and assassinations, lied to UN, and invaded a sovereign nation on the other side of the globe for bullshit reasons?

All I expected was more subtlety and less publicity, and something less blatantly insulting to a head of state, who after all, is usually part of the 1 percent. However, I'm afraid in terms immorality and disregard for treaties, no new ground was broken here.

[cali]

92. k&r for a clear and well done explanation of events. thanks.

[ZombieHorde]

100. Thanks for this. nt

[Corruption Inc]

101. "never expected such disregard of INTERNATIONAL LAW", LOL

Ever hear of Gitmo? Drone attacks? WMD conspiracy? Assassinations?

All are blatant violations of international laws. Someone else said it perfectly "It's not about law now, it's about raw power."

[bvar22]

102. Well, technically, he didn't "scramble" any "jets",

so I don't see what everybody is soooooo upset about!
Its ALL GOOD!

[malaise]

103. Excellent post

Rec