Bolivia threatens to close U.S. embassy to protest presidential plane diversion

[morningfog]

Bolivian President Evo Morales said Thursday he will study proposals to shut down the U.S. embassy amid growing anger after his airplane was diverted in Europe amid suspicions he was trying to smuggle NSA-leaker Edward Snowden off the continent.

At a rally with other South American leaders, Morales said member of his MAS party had proposed shuttering the embassy and he said he would “study” those proposals.

“We don’t need a U.S. embassy, we don’t need their pretexts of cooperation and diplomatic relations,” he told a crowd of supporters. “They conspire against us both inside and outside the country.”

The leaders of Venezuela, Ecuador and Argentina joined Morales in Cochabamba, Bolivia on Thursday. They were expected to produce a joint document to protest Morales’ treatment.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/07/04/3485430/bolivia-threatens-to-close-us.html#storylink=cpy

[hrmjustin]

1. Them fighting words!

[pintobean]

16. We should send these guys down there

to straighten this shit out.



Oh...
Wait...

Never mind.

[hrmjustin]

20. LOL I don't think it will work out.

[flamingdem]

2. That's bad news. I hope they don't do it.

Just as with Correa there is a hope that the USA can do what's right here before that happens.

And I don't mean the Evogate crap that I see as mostly opportunistic but another gesture to show good will to Latin America. It seemed to work with Correa.

Sadly, cat out of bag means more China and Russia in those countries, I don't think they really want that either.

[Arctic Dave]

3. Probably the best that could happen to them.

Bounce them all out and their contractors.

[JaneyVee]

4. Why close the US embassy?

[morningfog]

8. Because of US pressure that lead to the presidential plane being diverted, forced to land and

searched.

[JaneyVee]

12. Link? I'm interested.

[morningfog]

14. Just read the statements from the State Dept and the relevant nations.

A lot of confirming non-denials. It is more than obvious. I'll bookmark and get you a link in a few days.

[whistler162]

22. SO your denial of having an affair

would actually constitute proof that you are having an affair.

peoples you is so gullible!

[morningfog]

24. If the State Dept had denied it, you might have a point.

The US government has admitted that it had been in contact with other nations about potential flights involving Edward Snowden, the NSA whistleblower. The State Department would not comment on whether it had made any specific respresentations over Morales's flight.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d46713e4b0e80ab6523ade

[morningfog]

18. There is this, too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023169452#post19

It was the US ambassador to Austria that said Snowden was on the plane.

[flamingdem]

28. That is garbage my friend, find a single other reference to that story on Ambassador Eacho

You won't. More disinformation and misinformation. At best some underling from the Embassy called the Bolivians to tell them about the extradiction request that went to every country on Snowden's list.

[morningfog]

32. LOL. You and yours have lost any shred of credibility.

THe posts are solely comedic value now. Carry on.

[flamingdem]

45. Where is that link? That information would set the media ON FIRE and be seen as the KEY MOMENT

of the story, right?

Catherina is the only one who posted it beyond "diepresse"

[morningfog]

49. Patience. A lot of asses being covered and weasel words drafted.

[flamingdem]

50. BS. If one news source has it the others would be YELLING it to compete

But for whatever reason they smelled the rat.

[morningfog]

51. I can't believe that you believe the shit you post.

I'm going to put you on ignore because it I a waste of my time to try to engage you. I get more rational thought from my cat. Adios.

[mitchtv]

54. because they are nothing but trouble

We are always, Imean always interfering with their internal affairs, and bribing the military, US embassy is a nest of spies

[dixiegrrrrl]

5. Oh my....this is a LONG karma train.

[KharmaTrain]

11. No Shit...

[morningfog]

15. snort

[dixiegrrrrl]

17. Whooooo whooooo...

go get 'em!

Let's see, the Gov't That Does Not Represent Me has managed to piss off Germany and some other NATO partners,
with the spying.
pissed off most of So. America by ....let's call it for what it is...racist demeaning behavior towards a head of state,
and gotten Pakistan ready to kick us out of the country for droning too many civilians ( 17 yesterday got blown up)
I am sure i missed some other recent scew ups.

ohhhh...riiight...Obama's approval ratings in the US have taken a dive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Not surprised

Wars have started for far less.

[treestar]

9. Such as?

[Art_from_Ark]

21. Such as, bird dung

http://timemarcheson.wordpress.com/2011/10/08/1879-the-bird-poop-war-almanac-of-absurdities-for-10-8-2011/

[treestar]

30. At least is was considered a vital resource

So it's more like a war inspired by oil!

[think]

25. How about a pre-emptive war based on lies.....

or are we still looking for WMDs?

[treestar]

33. There it was based on WMD possession, even if a lie

people thought it was true.

So long as people thought it was true, that was serious. Not like some President's private plane landing. Had it been shot down and the people on the plane killed, maybe. But this stop to refuel somewhere other than they wanted to be, even if caused by alleged Snowden-transport - find a war started over something less serious than that and we have a contender.

[think]

53. Yes lies that were transparent enough that the UN didn't sanction our preemptive war

I'm not suggesting Morales has the right or the desire to declare over being held against his will in Austria.

But to say the Iraq war had any justification is a bit of a stretch.

I guess it depends on what one considers as the justification for war. In the case of the Iraq war anyone that was following knew that it was total bullshit from day one. Hans Blix was doing the job at the UN and he was ignored:

UN INSPECTORS FOUND NO EVIDENCE OF PROHIBITED WEAPONS PROGRAMMES

AS OF 18 MARCH WITHDRAWAL, HANS BLIX TELLS SECURITY COUNCIL

Up until they were withdrawn from Iraq on 18 March –- the day before

armed action began -- United Nations inspectors had found no evidence of the continuation or resumption of programmes of weapons of mass destruction, Hans Blix told the Security Council this morning, as he briefed them for a final time before stepping down at the end of June as head of the inspection team.

Full statement:

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2003/sc7777.doc.htm

The Contra war in the 80's was one of our illegal off the book wars. That's a tough one to justify but I'm sure that some people do.

I'm not sure if we get to count our illegal wars and military interventions but here's a link to a list that covers most of them since 1890. There are around 150 "military interventions" (wars) listed:

FROM WOUNDED KNEE TO LIBYA:

A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS

by Dr. Zoltan Grossman

The following is a partial list of U.S. military interventions from 1890 to 2011.

Below the list is a Briefing on the History of U.S. Military Interventions.

The list and briefing are also available as a powerpoint presentation.

This guide does not include:

mobilizations of the National Guard
offshore shows of naval strength
reinforcements of embassy personnel
the use of non-Defense Department personnel (such as the Drug Enforcement Administration)
military exercises
non-combat mobilizations (such as replacing postal strikers)
the permanent stationing of armed forces
covert actions where the U.S. did not play a command and control role
the use of small hostage rescue units
most uses of proxy troops
U.S. piloting of foreign warplanes
foreign or domestic disaster assistance
military training and advisory programs not involving direct combat
civic action programs
and many other military activities.


http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

Smedley Butler made it sound like many of the wars were strictly for profits. I don't consider war for profits much better than starting wars over fucking around with the president of another country but to each their own. Perhaps we believe our wars were just because our politicians lie well but that really isn't a proper justification for taking a nation to war and put our people in harms way

Smedley Butler was a 33 year career military man and one of the most decorated to date:

Smedley Butler Quotes

“I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”
― Smedley D. Butler, War is a Racket: The Antiwar Classic by America's Most Decorated Soldier

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/115545.Smedley_D_Butler

[treestar]

68. The issue here is the seriousness of the problem

Can hardly believe you went to all that trouble.

Yes it was a "lie" but a lie about a serious thing, which if true, led to support for the war - in fact Americans supported the war if it were true - that's why they lied about it.

Nobody is going to war or should be closing an embassy over this Evo Plane Incident. A poster suggested wars have been started over less - that is the quality of seriousness of the incident, the truth or not of the incident not being an issue.

[think]

72. Lies the UN didn't believe trump the truth about a president taken captive

and are a better justification for the preconditions for war?

That's an interesting take on it....

[Fumesucker]

31. Were you on this planet in 2003?

Because if you were that's a remarkably silly question.

[treestar]

38. I believe the concept of wars being started over less than the plane-landing

has flown over your head? That something trivial could start a war, not something very serious, but untrue.

[Fumesucker]

46. Nothing at all started arguably the worst foreign policy disaster in American history in 2003

Zero, zip, nada, none, nunca, nein weapons of mass destruction were ever found in Iraq.

Have you forgotten Smirk humorously looking under the rug in the Oval Office for the WMDs?

[treestar]

71. The American public accepted the idea that Iraq had WMD

While that was not true, if true, it would be serious and apparently was an acceptable war-ground for most people, including the Senate, etc.

The issue here is whether true or not, the seriousness of the incident. Nadin said wars have started over less. WMD is not less. It may not have been true, but as a believed fact, it was something serious that Iraq would have been doing.

But grounding Saddam's plane somewhere would not have been a good reason for Saddam to declare war on the US.

[treestar]

7. Kim Jong Un levels of nutty starting to show up here

There is no proof of the US having anything to do with it either! He's starting to sound like a paranoid nut. And over his private plane stopping somewhere? Who cares? There are people with real problems.

[morningfog]

10. The US was most obviously involved. To say otherwise is asinine.

[whistler162]

23. !backwards that have you

[morningfog]

26. The US ambassador to Austria made the call. Catch up!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3169452

This will all be publicly sorted out in due time. And a lot of people here will feel very stupid.

[treestar]

39. There was only one source reporting that

not a very trustworthy one. And it was said to have taken place after the landing in any event.

[treestar]

35. There is no real evidence other than people's preconceived desire it be so

If you were on a jury you'd be a danger to any defendant. All someone would have to testify to is that they thought the defendant did the crime.

[morningfog]

36. Oh for fuck's sake, I took you off ignore.

You quickly reminded me why you were there. I swear I lose IQ points reading your posts. Bye!

[treestar]

40. You sure do get emotional over people questioning or disagreeing with you

It appears you can't handle that.

[Cha]

66. Got that right.. everyone who has a different opinion is "asinine", doncha know.

Which immediately makes me think the accuser is the one who's being an ass.

[ForeignandDomestic]

19. Yeah...

And alot of their problems is the result of what our Military Industrial Imperialism is doing to them in their respective countries.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

27. There are other Americans who hold world views similar to yours

Can you guess who those other people might be? Time to take stock.

[treestar]

37. Is that supposed to scare me into agreement with YOU?

You are likely inaccurate in your assessment of my "world view."

It would be idiotic to close the US Embassy over this airplane thing.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

42. No. I personally don't believe you're capable of change at this point.

I base that assessment on your posting history. I'm not trying to find points of agreement with you. I'm attempting instead to highlight your hypocrisy and your thug approach to the rest of the planet.

[treestar]

43. Your posting history is that of an insane hater of all things

and total negativity, how's that? Now go back to the issues.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

47. It's understandable you're angry, but I maintain my point

[treestar]

70. You are angry not me

and make a point that does not involve me personally. That was my point. Make a point about the issue.

[Fumesucker]

34. It is no more a private plane than AF1 is a private plane, it is a Bolivian Air Force plane

[treestar]

41. So? It was not shot at.

[Fumesucker]

48. You said it was a private plane, an untrue statement designed to be dismissive

[treestar]

69. It's private like AF 1 is private in the sense it is not general commercial

But that's a quibble. OK, it's a Presidential Plane owned by the nation of Bolivia. Still the incident is not enough for wars or embassy closings.

[madrchsod]

55. well i have to agree with you .....

[Cleita]

13. Here's an article from the NYT, but what caught my eye is the part I have highlighted bold type.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2013/07/04/world/europe/04reuters-usa-security-latinamerica.html?hp&_r=1&

NEW YORK TIMES

July 4, 2013
South American Leftist Leaders Rally to Bolivia's Side in Snowden Saga
By REUTERS
COCHABAMBA, Bolivia — South America's most outspoken leftist leaders gathered on Thursday to rally behind Bolivian President Evo Morales, whose plane was diverted in Europe this week on suspicions that fugitive U.S. spy agency contractor Edward Snowden was aboard.

The summit in Cochabamba, Bolivia - where Morales began his political career as a leader of coca leaf farmers - is aimed at expressing outrage over his "virtual kidnapping" and the U.S. pressure they believe spurred it.

"Europe broke all the rules of the game," Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro said shortly after arriving at the Cochabamba airport. "We're here to tell President Evo Morales that he can count on us. Whoever picks a fight with Bolivia, picks a fight with Venezuela."

Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa said earlier that if any country had denied airspace to a U.S. or European president, it "probably would've been grounds for war."

Despite the rhetoric, no Latin American country has offered asylum yet to Snowden, who is wanted by Washington for disclosure of intelligence secrets. Two radical leftist governments - Venezuela and Cuba - are in a cautious rapprochement with the United States that would be jeopardized if they gave him sanctuary.

Russia is growing impatient over Snowden's stay in a Moscow airport and officials have urged him to leave.

Bolivia said Morales was returning from Moscow on Tuesday when France and Portugal abruptly banned his plane from entering their airspace, and it was forced to land in Vienna. Austrian officials said they inspected his plane there, but Bolivia's defence minister denied this.

This unusual treatment of a presidential plane upset leaders in Latin America, which has a history of U.S.-backed coups. more at link

Whoa! This is the first time I have seen a main stream news publication make an admission about our history of U. S. backed coups in South America. This is why he's moving to kick our diplomatic corp out of Bolivia.

[flamingdem]

29. Agree that sounds new to my ears from a mainstream source

Good catch!

[Judi Lynn]

44. Now that's a shock. Published on the 4th of July, too. Can't believe they did it.

Someone's probably going to be fired over this!

Thanks for pointing it out. Would never have believed it.

[BeyondGeography]

56. Morales got fucked with because he said he would consider Snowden's asylum request

So his line about "pretexts of cooperation and diplomatic relations," and "conspiring against us both inside and outside the country," can easily be turned against him. Sorry, cheerleaders.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

57. Go for it, you over dramatic douche bag! See if I care.

Your loss, amigo.

[morningfog]

58. I don't think you understand his culture or his country.

[Mojorabbit]

62. Why are you giving a fellow duer this kind of third degree?

He won't see this cause he told you he was putting you on ignore. This is the second post to this person I have you seen where you bring up guns. What has that to do with spying or the incident under discussion?

[flamingdem]

63. Maybe he's an emo prog / emo progressive

just learned that term, late to the party

[Mojorabbit]

65. That sort of thing accomplishes nothing and derails conversation.

This board is wonderful when everyone chips in in finding info and piecing it together for a big picture.
It is nice when it can be left to do it.

[Historic NY]

60. Fine close it that means no travel, no business no one from here going there...

and Bolivians coming here. Works for me. I can guess if state did close it in a week Morales would be calling. If he is going to threaten we should grant his request.

[muriel_volestrangler]

67. He shut down the USAID office in Bolivia earlier this year

Bolivian President Evo Morales said he is expelling the U.S. Agency for International Development from his country for allegedly meddling and conspiring against the government.

"USAID is out; I ask the foreign minister to immediately communicate with the U.S. Embassy," Morales said in a speech Wednesday, according to the state-run ABI news agency.
...
Bolivia and the United States have had diminished relations since September 2008, when each country expelled the other's ambassador. Morales, a strong proponent of the cultivation of coca plants -- the source of cocaine -- expelled the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration a month later. He also delivered a strong verbal criticism of the U.S. government at the United Nations General Assembly that year.
...
"We may be a small country, but we deserve respect," said Morales, stating his offense to being called the "back patio" of the United States.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/01/world/americas/bolivia-usaid-expelled

Don't think that Morales is desperate for relations with the USA.

[Historic NY]

61. Except the president plane diverted because the pilots request to...

The claim: The plane was "re-routed" to Austria.
The AP's original article, which suggests that the plane was re-routed to Austria, quotes Choquehuanca as saying that the refusal of France and Portugal to allow Morales to fly overhead "put the president's life at risk." An audio recording between the plane's pilots and air traffic control in Austria might explain why, as the Guardian pointed out.

Control tower: Do you need any assistance?

hear the audio traffic from tower & plane.....

Pilot: Not at this moment. We need to land because we cannot get a correct indication of the fuel indication so as a precaution we need to land.


http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/07/tale-re-routed-bolivian-presidents-plane-falling-apart/66838/

[flamingdem]

64. Thanks for the sane post

And Happy 4th of July!