If Snowden had been on Morales' plane

[morningfog]

and was taken into custody, we would not hear the end of the high fives and victory laps. The entire episode would have been celebrated as the US getting their man. It would be praised as a bold, but successful move.

The US and its allies would all be on message as cooperating to capture the current most wanted fugitive.

Because they were wrong in their hunch, nobody knows nothing. There would still be some people upset about the violation of international law, but that would be quickly dismissed as an ends justifying the means. And the action would be commended and defended.

It would have still been just as wrong.

[quinnox]

1. No doubt

there was actually a thread cheering on Austria for grounding the plane! All they need at this point for a certain nationalistic crew is a soundtrack saying "USA! USA USA!" over and over and occasionally "WE ARE KINGS OF THE WORLD!" on repeat. Some of these threads with this crew could have come out of free republic.

[morningfog]

2. I had to un ignore to find that thread yesterday,

but it was very telling in hindsight.

[quinnox]

5. yup, and it was ironic to me especially that it was Austria who was in the main lackey role

Austria has a shameful history, they welcomed the Nazis with open arms and gladly collaborated with them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Yup

It is quite embarrassing, but true.

[leftstreet]

4. What moron thought Snowden was on that plane?

I never understood that

[morningfog]

7. Good question.

Regardless, everyone knows the score now. In a way this was a positive for Snowden. The US's hand was tipped.

[sabrina 1]

16. Well, those 'Latin Americans' their leaders are likely to act like drug dealers and try to fly a

fugitive to their countries, they must be that stupid, they are colonists, brown people'. It was so insulting to even think that Morales was that stupid. But it is no surprise that the former European Colonialists would assume such a thing. Not to mention our own racist foreign policies.

And it did not go unnoticed by the Latin American leaders last night. They are very aware of the condescending attitude towards them. As Argentina's leader stated 'we thought this attitude was behind us'.

[sibelian]

32. Bad tip-off, maybe.

Someone stirring it.

It worked beautifully, if so.

[MjolnirTime]

6. you guys are going to have a shitfit when Ed gets nabbed.

[morningfog]

8. I have no attachments to him. Seeing what was

done to try to catch him was fascinating and eye opening.

[Electric Monk]

10. I think that you're having a shitfit now because you know you have skeletons in your closet

[MjolnirTime]

30. what is that supposed to mean, braintrust?

[sabrina 1]

18. You guys are going to have to drop your fascination with Snowden and start realizing that

the documents being released ARE the story, well to a vast majority of the people of the world. Why are you so concerned about the messenger, but not the message whiich has outraged people in this country. Did you see the huge protests in NY today against the NSA?

It was surreal to watch all the celebrations of our 'Independence' on the Corporate Media while huge protests against the taking away of our Independence, NOT by 'terrorists' but by our own Government, were going on side by side with the celebrations. We are becoming a laughing stock round the world. Preaching 'Democracy' while holding secret trials, secret courts, secret warrants, secret kill lists, and the most massive domestic surveillance programs ever? It is sad, but you seem stuck on a guy who has little significance considering the enormous ramifications of what is being revealed.

[GeorgeGist]

29. Enjoy yours until then.

[sibelian]

33. I can't wait.

Trial of the fricken Millenium, bro.

[ProSense]

9. Why wasn't he?

Wouldn't that have been the best way to back up the talk?

I seriously doubt these countries want anything to do with Snowden.

[silvershadow]

17. They actually probably don't. They just wanted their moment in the International sun I suspect.

Will they help him? Maybe if they get the opportunity. Was he on that plane? Not sure, who knows, but they certainly seized the moment in the spotlight, and revealed yet another skeleton in our closet, so to speak. The made us look bad, and I'm sure people are pissed all over Washington. That it was revealed to the Americans, though, is something kinda new.

[sabrina 1]

20. Why would you even think that a man as intelligent as Morales would consider doing such a thing?

Why would ANYONE think such a thing? Is it because he is an indigenous leader of a Latin American country? Would you think eg, that the President of France, the PM of England, might do something like this, or would you assume THEY would follow the laws on granting asylum?

The leaders of Latin America have not missed the racism involved in the assumption that Evo Morales would be stupid enough, and dismissive of the laws, which he is aware of, to do this. Several of them tonight, commented on the treatment as reminiscent of the old colonialism, which as Argentina's leader stated 'we thought we were beyond that'.

[silvershadow]

21. Consider what? Taking Snowden aboard his flight? If he did, it was because he felt he could help

him. As far as the incident that transpired, the way it has been reported and then dissected here, I am inclined to believe his flight was at the very least inappropriately detained, if not illegally according to international law. As to why the latin leader was pissed, that is why. If you mean why would I consider Morales to be helping, I don't. I'm just saying the way he was treated was wrong, not surprising, but wrong.

[sabrina 1]

23. I should have worded that differently. Whoever was responsible for the 'rumor'

who obviously was in some official capacity, was mostly what I meant. Morales is a smart man, he knows the rules, the laws of his own country, on granting asylum. He did say that his country would definitely consider it, which is probably why they diverted his plane. But there is no way the President of a sovereign nation would do such a thing, it would be extremely foolish, and Morales is anything but foolish.

I am sorry, coming from a background that is more than familiar with Imperialism, I can definitely understand the insult this was to all of Latin America.

Did not mean to offend you, sorry if I did.

[silvershadow]

24. No problem, I understood the incident in much the way your background allows you to-

and I don't necessarily think Morales would be that stupid, but on the other hand this is International intrigue of the highest order, so I wouldn't rule it out either. That's all I meant...allowing for the possibility. But yeah, he got treated as though he had to answer to us, which was a ridiculous insult on a Diplomatic flight. No offense taken.

[sabrina 1]

27. Okay, glad you are not offended.

Lol, nothing can be ruled out, I suppose, but I would never have thought he would do such a thing as he would have known the ramifications of it. Anyhow, whoever was responsible has created a huge headache for the US and should be fired imo.

[Downwinder]

11. Instead it turned into another intelligence (?) failure.

[Catherina]

12. Just as wrong and totally, totally illegal n/t

[davidpdx]

13. I'm still waiting to hear HOW all of these countries came to think Snowden was on the plane

Along with why anyone would think it was possible to get on the plane from another airport without the plane landing (especially since Russia will not let him leave the airport except a flight directly out of the country).

[Octafish]

14. Ollie North did that to Achille Largo terrorists, diverting getaway flight.

They killed a senior citizen, throwing Leon Klinghoffer and his wheelchair into the sea.

Different circumstances, entirely. Killers vs Whistleblower.

Most importantly, the plane the terrorists were aboard was a commercial flight, not a diplomatic one transporting a head of state.

[HooptieWagon]

15. Diverting a commercial flight is legal.

A plane transporting a head of state or diplomat is another matter. The plane in effect is an "embassy". If Snowden was aboard the plane, he would have sanctuary, just as if he was in a Bolivian embassy or on Bolivian soil. Legally, anyway....evidently Obama can't be bothered with acting legally.

[silvershadow]

19. Can you imagine China, or Russia, or Germany or any other nation doing that to our President?

No, of course not. Americans have the luxury of doing all this stuff with impunity, and they wouldn't stand for it if it was done to us. Moot point, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

[HooptieWagon]

22. Apparently, Obama doesn't think intl law and treaties apply to us.

Karma will bite us in the ass eventually.

[Kablooie]

25. Our intelligence seems to be miserable in spite of all the snooping.

To act on the report that Snowden was on a diplomatic plane meant they believed the intelligence was rock solidago were sure they were correct. This isn't the kind of thing you do casually. If he had been there, it still might have been wrong but Bolivia would have been on the defensive and the whole incident would have a different focus.

But once again America makes its move based on faulty, weak intelligence.
Since we've had all this extreme spying on everyone in the world our knowledge of what's going on seems to have decreased.

Something's got to change.
It's a travesty all around.

[Swede Atlanta]

26. The U.S. has not been a nation of laws for a very long time......

Further it has not been a representative democracy for a very long time either.

This is the facade the 1% want to peddle to the world and to keep the "sheeple" subdued.

This isn't about Obama, GWB, Clinton or any other administration. This is what happens when bravado and American exceptionalism merge. Those blue-bloods (not to be confused with blue state/red state, etc.) that own and run our economy and our government are only out for one thing, power and wealth.

They have zero interest in liberty or democracy or the notion of justice. For them it is only a question of money and projecting power.

It will not happen in my lifetime but the U.S. pre-eminence in the world will dim just as it did for the Greeks, the Romans and Great Britain. Those who will wield power in the 21st century will be China and India. The U.S. will become another power that reached its zenith in the 2nd half of the 20th century and will slowly dim.

I think the blue-bloods actually understand this and so they are anxious to amass as much wealth and exert power while it is still possible.

[sabrina 1]

28. I remember when it was first announced that the plane had been diverted, a few, um, surveillance

state supporters cheering, hoping he was on the plane. So you are correct, they quickly changed after they were educated about the huge problem this will create as it is a huge violation of diplomatic laws and could endanger our own diplomats which is why WE respect theirs. What morons we have running things in this world. No wonder we are in the mess we are in.

[malaise]

31. This happens when men destroy the Magna Carta,

torture fellow human beings, violate the Geneva Convention and are not charged.