My current take on the Bolivia plane story

[struggle4progress]

REMARK: There is in my mind no question that during the Bush era, the US made serious efforts (1) to limit Morales' prospects as a Presidential candidate, and (2) to destabilize Bolivia by supporting secessionist movements in various regions; for more details, check the Latin America forum archives in DU2. So Morales' touchiness here isn't a product of mere fantastic paranoid projections: it is rooted in his personal experience and in rather recent history

PORTUGAL. Portugal claims that it originally approved overflights and landings for Morales' round trip, but the day before the return notified Bolivia that although overflight posed no problem, refueling in Lisbon would be impossible for some unspecified technical reason. That could actually be a consequence of the multiple strikes affecting the Lisbon airport in the last days of June: there might have been maintenance or staffing or supply issues, for example, resulting from repeated disruptions of normal airport routine, for which recovery might take a while. According to Portugal, Bolivia was at first quite insistent that it could not re-route its continental fuel stop to elsewhere than Lisbon, though eventually Bolivia agreed to refuel elsewhere. It is unclear to me where Bolivia intended to refuel prior to heading over the Atlantic, if refueling at Lisbon was denied

AUSTRIA. Austria apparently received an emergency landing request associated with low fuel, or perhaps a fuel indicator problem, and allowed the plane to land in Vienna. The stories available in English diverge here: some assert that Austria demanded to search the plane but Bolivia refused; some assert Austria searched the plane; some assert Austrian officials walked through the cabin checking passports but did not otherwise search the plane; some assert the Austrians conversed with the Bolivians at the cabin door. It might not be unusual to check the passports of international travelers in the case of an emergency landing; in any case, Bolivia does not seem to be complaining about its treatment by the Austrians.

FRANCE. France's current posture towards the US does not suggest that the French would immediately agree to every possible US request regarding Snowden: France, for example, is currently suggesting that upcoming trade talks should be postponed until the US provides satisfactory answers to questions about Snowden's allegations that the US monitors conversations in the EU and attempted to penetrate EU government offices. The official French story is that France was confused about the number of planes involved and who was aboard. According to France, overflight permission was granted as soon as France understood the request was simply for Morales' plane; France has apologized for the confusion. Such confusion is not at all impossible: if Bolivia filed a second overflight request with France, after failing to convince Portugal to allow the original Lisbon refueling, miscommunications might indeed have led French aviation authorities to wonder why they had TWO different overflight requests from Bolivia

SPAIN. Spain says that it originally approved overflight and refueling in the Canary Islands, then re-approved the re-scheduled overflight and refueling in the Canary Islands after the flight delay. The plane refueled in the Canary Islands, as originally expected. There have been some unclear claims about Spanish demands to search the plane, but as far as I can tell these claims do not involve the Canary Island refueling stop. Did the Bolivians, denied access to Lisbon, plan a refueling landing in Spain, without seeking advance permission from the Spanish and then turn back to Vienna, upon being told that such a stop would require the passengers to exhibit passports?

ITALY. Italy apparently received a request that it regarded as moot after the plane landed in Austria. The natural guess here would be that the request to Italy was an emergency landing request, like the request to Austria, made as a contingency in the event that a Vienna landing was infeasible

[Cali_Democrat]

1. Here's the link to the information about the pilot reporting fuel indicator issues.

Control tower: Do you need any assistance?

Pilot: Not at this moment. We need to land because we cannot get a correct indication of the fuel indication so as a precaution we need to land.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/07/tale-re-routed-bolivian-presidents-plane-falling-apart/66838/

Doesn't appear as though the plane was forced to land so Austrian officials could look for Snowden. They were having fuel indicator issues and landed as a precaution.

[Cleita]

3. See my post. It was so they could land because they were running out of fuel. n/t

[Cha]

14. So, Cali.. the pilot and Pres Morales had

no communication before Morales made his accusation at the USA?

What you think?

[Cleita]

2. The fuel indicator problem was a ruse the pilot used to be able to land.

They had been flying around trying to get clearance for air space and this was how they were able to convince the Austrians to let them land. Otherwise they might have refused them as well. Anyway this is the story Morales himself told.

[struggle4progress]

4. That's possible. Do you know where they had intended to refuel?

[magellan]

6. The Canary Islands. n/t

[Cleita]

8. I read the original flight plan was Lisbon but then it was rescinded when it was rumored that

Snowden was on board. Then the other nations refused. That's when they went to Austria and asked to land because of the fuel indicator problem. It had to be so because international flight law says if an airplane is in trouble and needs to land, they have to give it permission.

[magellan]

10. You're right, it was Lisbon originally, not Canary Islands.

My error.

[MADem]

9. The Canaries were on the flight plan as a refueling stop, before the plane left Russia.

They had asked for Lisbon twice, and were twice denied for those technical reasons you mentioned. They knew a day before they left Moscow that they had to revise their flight plan; they asked for a refueling in (continental) Spain and Spain said no, and directed them to the Canaries. When they filed the plan, that's where the refueling was programmed to happen.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

5. so they lied.

[Cleita]

7. Yes, they lied to be able to land or should they have just run out of fuel and

dropped out of the sky?

[boston bean]

22. Well they lied!

To save themselves, but they lied so I guess they should face the consequences!

I am being sarcastic, cause I can't believe what I read from some here.

[dawg]

33. It sounds like they used weasel words to me.

They didn't say their fuel gauge was broken, just that they couldn't get a proper indication that they had sufficient fuel. I had that very same thing happen to me last week. The low fuel light came on and it was 26 miles to the next town large enough to have a gas station. The gauge was working fine, but it was not precise enough to tell me whether or not I had enough fuel to make it. Scary. Should I risk it, or should I double back to the last town I passed through?

No one, anywhere, has said anything about the Austrians "fixing" the fuel gauge, so I think it was just a matter of not knowing if they had enough fuel to get back to Moscow. (The traffic on that ring road can get really slow at rush hour.)

[Life Long Dem]

11. What did Snowden do now?

Last edited Fri Jul 5, 2013, 03:57 AM - Edit history (1)

[Downwinder]

12. So far i have not seen any consideration given to the flight crew

dealing with diplomatic clearances, routing, range, and service facilities, all the time cruising at .80 or .84 Mach in a tight airspace limited by national borders.

[Cha]

13. Wow, that's still confusing to me.. thank you

for your theory, struggle.

I mentioned "confusing" on a thread last night regarding the plane clusterfuck and got jumped on by some Snowden truthers who were mightily offended.. as only Greenwald acolyles can be.

Good on your "current take".. as that one will probably be evolving.. look forward to update.

[freshwest]

15. I email some people in Europe and ask them about this or that crisis. They tell me it's bunkum.

They say that Americans can't be expected to know which sources over there are reliable and a lot of what we read is equivalent to a grocery store scandal sheet like the National Inquirer.

But we can't tell if some event really is a crisis. We don't know how they are constructed over there, not financially, legally or socially. We just have this mental landscape of the villianous big guy and the sainted little guy. We don't even know who is doing the crimes and who is being done in.

Or even if there a crime occuring at all and why things are not how we envision Europe to be, as we have illusions.

We've heard of the big Occupy in London; the fall of Greece heralded a few times along with Italy; and stories about fabulous hoarded wealth that will free the world from debt if forced to give it up; and various other things that tantalize.

Gotta go, Happy 5th of July here!

[Cha]

16. "..a lot of what we read is equivalent to a grocery store scandal sheet like the National Inquirer"

I hear that, fresh. Pres Morales sounded a little trash tabloid himself when accusing the USA of grounding him.

When I was read that.. I'm like What! And, then I got a load of his history and realized that I'm not trusting what his paranoia comes up with.

Happy 5th of July, fresh.. still the Fourth here.

[struggle4progress]

17. Let me summarize: Portugal turned down a request to refuel in Lisbon, so Bolivia had to rework

and resubmit their flight plans; France got confused, cuz now it had TWO requests from Bolivia, and it took France a while to sort that out; Bolivia somehow started running out of jet fuel over Austria, and had to find an emergency place to land and gas up, which turned out to be Vienna; the Austrians weren't expecting these guests, so asked to see their passports; Italy got an emergency landing request too (just in case!) but stopped thinking about it when the plane was cleared to land in Vienna; meanwhile, the US State Department was helpfully sending out notices to everybody "Hi! If you haven't heard, we're looking for a dude named Snowden, so if you see him, drop us a note, please!" And so the Bolivians -- instead of wondering "Who's the dumbass who thought we could get to the Canary Islands on a tank of gas? -- decided it was a grand conspiracy against them

[Cha]

38. Got it! Mahalo, struggle4progress!

[randome]

18. So if all these countries were our merest puppets...

...what would have been the point of not allowing the plane to land and be searched? Why 'make' Austria do that?

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Skidmore]

36. I wonder if any cosideration has been given to the idea that some

of these smaller nations have enough going on that they just plain old don't want to get sucked into this whole Snowden affair.

[Cha]

39. Another good point that should be directed toward

Pres Morales!

[Fumesucker]

19. It wasn't "France" that approved the airspace use, it was the President of France, Hollande

How often do you suppose heads of state of major nations get involved in routine air traffic control matters in such a hands on manner?

That really sticks out to me that French government is so remarkably inefficient and dysfunctional that such a basic chore should be kicked so far up the ladder.

The buck stops here indeed.

[struggle4progress]

20. Could be. Or maybe that's just the way he talks

[Fumesucker]

23. Is that your final answer?

[struggle4progress]

28. I generally don't try to parse politicians' speech too closely

[Fumesucker]

30. But parsing a clear meaning as something else is *precisely* what you are doing with your comment

[temmer]

21. okay Gentlemen - time to finish this speculation thread here

and replace it with facts:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014527852

[struggle4progress]

24. Spain sees no reason to apologize to Bolivia in Snowden saga

... Spanish Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo said in an interview on state television that the country's airspace was not closed to the Bolivian leader's plane ... "Spain doesn't have to ask for a pardon in any way because its airspace was never closed," he said of the incident which has caused tension with major trading partner Latin America ...
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/05/us-spain-bolivia-idUSBRE96405820130705

[cali]

25. so what? how about responding to Spain saying that

they and other European countries were told Snowden was aboard Morales' plane?

Your non-response response is just, nevermind.

[struggle4progress]

26. ... The minister did not say who supplied the information and declined to say whether

he had been in contact with the United States ...

Spain Says It Was 'Told' Snowden On Bolivia Plane
by The Associated Press
July 05, 2013 5:48 AM
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=198967973

Yes-sir-ee-bob! That there sure-nuff is some mighty fine information he is done provided us with!

[cali]

29. so what? he said quite clearly that they'd been informed

that Snowden was on that plane. The U.S. frequently makes similar statements, leaving out information they choose to leave out. So do all other countries.

Who do you think informed him?

Do you think it's possible the U.S. did?

Do you realize the U.S. had already filed an extradition request with Bolivia.

Given the immediate context, isn't it logical to presume that he U.S. told Spain and other European countries that Snowden was on that flight? Isn't the U.S. the most logical source for that info?

[struggle4progress]

27. So Mr Spanish Foreign Minister is (1) making it clear that Spain's hands are clean, and (2)

pushing the blame onto everybody else, by (3) citing vague gossip he has heard, for which he can provide no real details

[cali]

31. Your characterziation of the information as "vague gossip" is horse shit.

that's just ridiculous. So every piece of information where someone doesn't reveal the source is "vague gossip"

that's fucking pathetic beyond words

[struggle4progress]

32. Though we differ on the spreaders, at least we agree horse shizz being spread about!

[Cha]

40. Wow, from your link, struggle..

South American leftist leaders from countries including Argentina and Venezuela joined Morales at a summit in Cochabamba, Bolivia, on Thursday. They released a statement demanding answers from France, Portugal, Italy and Spain.

Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro said on Thursday he would evaluate diplomatic relations with Spain.

"What the Spanish government has done is infamy," he said in televised remarks.

Sounds like they're the ones who are "confused".

[okaawhatever]

34. Why is there no discussion of the fuel gauge? A flight claiming a fuel gauge problem

would certainly need to have it inspected/repaired/re-inspected. The claim that there wasn't enough fuel is suspect. Had Morales taken off from Moscow with the next stop being the Canary Islands, they should have had fuel for approximately 3000 Nautical miles. Moscow to Vienna is approx. 900 nautical miles. Even flying around a bit wouldn't cause anything like a fuel shortage. That is suspect in itself. Never mind that a country would not refuse landing for a plane in distress. The technical information doesn't support Morales' claims.

[struggle4progress]

35. According to Portugal, on Monday Portugal notified Bolivia that the scheduled Lisbon landing

to refuel would be impossible, though overflight was still possible: an exact explanation seems not to have been made public. The Portuguese say the Bolivians repeatedly insisted on Lisbon in several communications, before filing an amended request for overflight

I'm wondering if the Bolivians decided, hey! It's our Presidential plane! We'll go refuel in Lisbon anyway: they can't tell us no!; set off from Moscow with enough fuel to reach Lisbon but not enough to reach the Canary Islands; started calling Lisbon from Austrian airspace with a request to land for an emergency; and were told, no, if you've got a problem, head for the nearest major airport

[okaawhatever]

37. The new article claiming the plane was forced to land really gets under my skin. The only reason the

the plane landed was because of the fuel gauge. Therefore, they were forced to land because of the fuel gauge. I wonder if Morales wasn't trying to turn the initial denial into a big production by claiming they had fuel gauge problems. It doesn't make sense. Also, if the airplane had requested emergency landing, any country would have granted it. A country (or their air traffic controllers) refusing an emergency landing request would have been much worse than what Morales claims. It does make sense that ATC would say, protocol for emergency landings is the nearest airport, so if Morales' pilot tried for emergency clearance ignoring closer airports, the pilot's actions would be suspect.