Lets end all this*: Spain says it was 'told' Snowden on Bolivia plane

[cali]

Not that it isn't obvious that the landing in Austria of President Morales' plane was all about the U.S. getting Snowden. It's become clear that that was indeed the aim. Let's review. President Morales makes comments about Snowden and asylum that a reasonable person could deduce was an offer of asylum. President Morales is in Russia. Snowden is in Russia. The President, Kerry and other high ranking folks have made comments suggesting that Snowden has information in his possession that could be highly damaging to U.S. interests. It's absurd to suggest that they aren't anxious to get their hands on him.

The U.S. believes that Edward Snowden is aboard President Morales' plane. Do you honestly think they wouldn't do something to intervene?

Spain says it and other European countries were told that fugitive NSA leaker Edward Snowden was aboard the Bolivian presidential plane that was diverted to Austria this week, causing a diplomatic row.

Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo said Friday on Spanish National Television "they told us that the information was clear, that he was inside."

The minister did not say who supplied the information and declined to say whether he had been in contact with the United States. But he says European countries' reactions were based on this information.

Bolivia President Evo Morales claims Washington pressured European countries to deny the plane flyover permission Tuesday on suspicion that Snowden was using the flight as part of his bid to seek asylum

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/spain-says-it-was-told-snowden-bolivia-plane


*Yes, I know this won't come close to ending this debate. I'm just bloody sick of the convoluted denial theories.

[Democracyinkind]

1. And US ambassador Eacho called the austrian foreign ministey wednesday night.

These two facts should no longer be denied with a straight face...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023170429

[burnodo]

2. New spin is on its way!

It's just a question of coordination of talking points.

[cali]

3. I know. I just thought I'd put it in the simplest of terms

it's ridiculous to spin these convoluted stories about why this happened.

[dballance]

4. Don't Forget the Extradition Order the US Gave Bolivia

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/bolivia-rejects-us-request-to-extradite-edward-snowden

Why would the US serve an extradition order if we didn't think they had him? Those don't usually get served preemptively that I know of.

There is some "THERE" there in this case.

Oh, yeah, and France apologizing for denying/delaying airspace flyover to the Bolivian president.

As my business law professor would have taught us, the preponderance of the evidence is weighing heavily in favor of the US meddling in international affairs.

[cali]

6. thank you for adding that. I had forgotten.

yes, the preponderance of evidence.

[Cleita]

9. There was a slew of pre-emptive extradition orders issued to many nations who might give

Snowden asylum not just to Bolivia.

[dballance]

12. Thanks. I guess I missed that. /nt

[Fumesucker]

5. They don't even extend the courtesy of calling it rain n/t

[truth2power]

27. Isn't that the truth! And the American people don't even have enough pride left to acknowledge

that they're being treated with utter contempt.

Just pathetic.

[idwiyo]

7. Never mind Cali, they will just keep singing the same song over, and over again.

"...Some people started singing it not knowing what it was
And they'll continue singing it forever just because
This is the song that doesn't end
Yes it goes on and on my friend..."

[Cleita]

8. Hatred of Morales for no other reason than they have been told to hate him by

the English language press like they were told to hate Chavez is not going to make them look at the facts. The PTB have appealed to the prejudices of Americans to perpetrate a hostile act on the leader of a sovereign nation. Even Morales himself said the whole thing was absurd. He said Snowden was not a suitcase he could pick up and carry aboard the airplane. He never has met Snowden and wasn't never even anywhere in the vicinity of where Snowden was believed to be holed up. But it seems common sense and making sure they have their information right is too much for our Dept. of Homeland Security. It seems they haven't a clue. Obama should investigate whose at fault and then make heads roll.

[cali]

10. yes, and we're seeing a lot of the prototypical "ugly American" right

here on DU

[Downwinder]

14. Considering that they could not find Snowden on the passenger manifest

out of Honolulu, don't expect too much.

[carolinayellowdog]

11. debate is too nice a word for it; the denial is all about distraction

as the story unfolds with one horrifying detail after another, denialist distraction continues but can't quite keep up with the shitstorm

[cali]

13. We need to make sure that it doesn't

by posting an reposting the facts.

[davidpdx]

15. That still doesn't answer two fundamental questions I've asked over and over again

Where did the tip come that led to the assumption Snowden was on the plane? It didn't come from the Russians because they want nothing to do with it.

How in god's green earth could he get on a plane at a different airport without the plane landing? (Morales took landed and took off at a smaller airport, Snowden is at the main airport)

No conspiracy theories here, just questions that haven't been answered which would explain what happened.

[Cleita]

16. But that would be letting facts get in the way of a good story. n/t

[cali]

17. I think Occam's Razor is appropriate here.

Cui bono? Who would benefit?

I don't know the answer to airport questions or the proximity of one to the other

[davidpdx]

18. They were about 18 km apart

I guess the Russians have developed that transporter technology from Star Trek. Beam me up Scotty.....

Government planes carrying foreign officials to diplomatic meetings in Moscow typically arrive and depart from Vnukovo Airport, which is also the main airfield used by the Russian government, rather than from Sheremetyevo, where Mr. Snowden arrived from Hong Kong on June 23 hours after American officials had sought his extradition there.

The speculation that Mr. Snowden would hitch a ride on a government jet was discounted by the fact that the plane would have to first make a quick flight from one Moscow airport to the other.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/03/world/europe/snowden.html?pagewanted=all

The airport used for Morales

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vnukovo_International_Airport

The other thread said it was the US Ambassador to Austria that called the FM. Still I'd like to know, Who told them this? Did they have someone at the airport Russia? Anonymous tip?

[backscatter712]

19. I can answer that with three letters... Guess which ones.

[davidpdx]

20. Still the information would have had to come from within Russia

Snowden is in a locked wing of a hotel. The Russians have said he's free to go if he has a flight. The problem is no such flight existed.

To top that Morales didn't land or take off from the same airport.

[backscatter712]

23. At least that's what the Three Letters thinks...

They think that because they have the capabilities of gathering this information, that they are omniscient, but as has happened multiple times, the information they received, and then had people act on, is frequently misleading, just plain wrong, or deliberate disinformation.

We've seen plenty of times that their omniscience is illusory.

[davidpdx]

24. It still doesn't answer where the misleading information came from

That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Along with the fact that they were at separate airports. Neither makes sense.

[cali]

25. oh, c'mon. for pity's sake. It came from the U.S.

who else would it come from and why?

[davidpdx]

26. To do it they'd have to be awfully sure he was on the plane

and pretty sure that Snowden could have slipped on a plane that wasn't even at the same airport.

[temmer]

36. I think they were duped while wiretapping a phone call

where the information was conveyed that Snowden was on the plane.

That's why they were so awfully sure.

[davidpdx]

37. That's one possibility

Not so sure it's the only one. I think it's a good starting point from which to ask questions. No one really seems interested in asking these questions.

It still doesn't explain how they thought Snowden would get between the two airports despite being "locked down".

[phiddle]

38. That's my guess, as well.

The US would not have leaned so strongly on the Europeans to interfere with Morales' flight on the mere suspicion of some low-level flunky in Langley. Rather, they must have had what they considered solid evidence that Snowden was aboard.
Taking advantage of both the Americans' fever to get Snowden, and Morales' comment that he would consider an asylum request, the Russians subltly let the Americans intercept (false) information that Snowden would be aboard that flight, and then sat back and enjoyed the spectacle. Such a move would new totally in character for the ex-head of the KGB (Putin). And, it would not be necessary to share the plan with Morales; indeed, his reaction would be more authentic if he were NOT clued in.
Short version: we were played for fools.

[cali]

21. ooh, can I guess?

Would they be the 3rd, 9th and 1st letters of the alphabet?

[backscatter712]

22. Close!

Or another group of three letters based in Fort Meade...

[Fuddnik]

28. Acme Intelligence Contractors.

CEO: Wile E. Coyote.

[Nevernose]

31. My personal guess, totally fact free:

Some low level flunkie at State or CIA, probably on the Bolivia desk, noticed that Morales was leaving Moscow, added 2and 2, got other people excited about the idea (because anyone left wing is obviously an enemy of the US and they're all in cahoots against us), and this embarrassing clusterfuck ensued.

Too bad hypothetical guy was bad at math.

[Turbineguy]

29. This whole Snowden thing may turn out to be

Rove's cleverest operation yet.

[FairWinds]

30. What if the Mexican government . .

denied air space to a plane (maybe) carrying Dick Cheney to Belize? . . .
forcing it to land in Cuba as fuel ran low.
Mexico demands that Cuba turn Cheney over to them . .
Not that there's anything wrong with that .

And lets see, we're supposed to believe that, Snowden has info that is
"highly damaging to U.S. interests".

I am a Vietnam vet who has been lied to WAAAAY to many times by my government,
so NO I will not believe that without lots of proof.

Proud Veterans for Peace member (we also support Bradley Manning)

[heaven05]

32. +1000

yep. 68-69.

[Aerows]

33. You know

now that I think about it, considering how much of a stink this caused by denying flight access on a rumor, how seriously will these countries take the notion that Snowden is on a plane headed into their airspace now?

It could be a way for him to get out of Moscow. Regardless, the credibility of the people who claimed he was on Morales' plane has taken a huge hit.

[davidpdx]

34. Good point

If the call was an anonymous tip and they were sure the US would act on it, then it would cause a diplomatic stink. Who would have a motive to do that? Oh, I don't know.

Given what happened, would the US try it again? Nope.

Problem solved....

Granted the US shouldn't have taken the bait.

[The Link]

35. This whole thing has been bungled by the White House so badly.

It is comical...and makes the US look like a joke.