Zimmerman lawyer badgers Trayvon’s mom to try and get her to say her son "caused his own death"

[bigtree]

Last edited Fri Jul 5, 2013, 12:06 PM - Edit history (2)

_____________________________

tweeted by, Eric W. Dolan ‏@EWDolan 7m
Zimmerman lawyer urges Trayvon’s mom to admit her son ’caused his own death’ http://bit.ly/13y6SbI (RawStory)

“If it was your son, in fact, screaming as you testified, that would suggest that it was Mr. Zimmerman’s fault that led to his death,” O’Mara observed. “And if it was not your son screaming, if it was, in fact, George Zimmerman then you would have to accept the probability that it was Trayvon Martin that caused his own death, correct?”

“I don’t understand your question,” Fulton said. “I heard my son screaming.”

“You certainly had to hope that was your son screaming even before you heard it, correct?” O’Mara continued.

“I didn’t hope for anything,” Fulton insisted. “I just simply listened to the tape.”

“I don’t meant to put you through this any more than necessary, but you certainly would hope your son, Trayvon Martin, did nothing that could have led to his own death, correct?” O’Mara tried again.

“What I hope for is that this wouldn’t have ever happened and he would still be here,” Fulton shot back. “That’s my hope.”


( . . . it's not surprising he went there, but my heart certainly goes out to the dead youth's mother. How monumentally callous and unnecessary . . .)


read: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/05/zimmerman-lawyer-urges-trayvons-mom-to-admit-her-son-caused-his-own-death/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[reflection]

1. Spectacular answers from her.

She really neutered his implication that she was "hoping" for some evidence that showed her son wasn't a criminal. Great takedown by the mother, IMO.

[monmouth3]

2. I agree, a very dignified and sober response..n/t

[bigtree]

3. she kept her excellent composure

. . . and responded only as she could.

“What I hope for is that this wouldn’t have ever happened and he would still be here,” Fulton shot back. “That’s my hope.”

Exactly.

[freshwest]

136. The patience of the parents is epic in a very cruel, callous situation. Yet they hold on.

Although I suspect when they are not in public, the tears flow freely.

There is a strange thing about tears that those who have not been cornered and dehumanized do not know and most likely cannot comprehend.

When one is alone, or in prayer, or with friends or family that understand you, tears can relieve pain.

When one is in the enemy camp, or with strangers, all that happens is more pain and harm. Any show of weakness is dangerous in that situation.

I suspect Trayvon's mother and Rachel know this very well, and you can see it by their demeanour. Rachel was younger and used to being abused by society, so not as polished.

Trayvon's mother, by virtue of being born black, had to learn that lesson, too.

The treatment of the family and friends of Trayvon disgust me no end, and say more about those who trash them, both in lack of empathy and lives lived in a bubble or a lie.

I have read of her gratitude to the many people who have sent her letters of support, and her support for the parents of the young boy killed in Boston who cared about Trayvon.

This trial is revealing the hearts of many, and it is not pretty.

[Blue_Roses]

141. As a mother myself, I found her incredibly

inspiring. Not only did she have strong, solid answers, she held her own with the stupid questions O'Mara was asking.

I agree that being in an " enemy camp" helps to give strength when put through ridiculous questioning like this, but I believe ANGER is what keeps the tears from flowing. I know for me, anger helps to hide my venerability and gives me strength when I would otherwise fall apart. I"m not talking about the "throw desks around anger", but that "fight or flight" type.

When this whole thing is over is when she is really going to need all the love and support she can get. Hopefully, the jury will see the facts as it played out and convict Zimmerman --at least of manslaughter. He needs to be held responsible for this.

[freshwest]

144. Anger, true. I have always called up anger to prevent from crying in public.

Many people react that way.

[Nine]

94. +1

[pnwmom]

148. She was amazing. Much smarter and self-possessed than I could have been on that stand. n/t

[Ruby the Liberal]

4. I am still in disbelief that I listened to that exchange.

She handled it tremendously. I just can't believe what a tone deaf asshole O'mara was.

[Aerows]

5. My God

that's awful. Here is this poor mother having to listen to her son screaming while he died and this asshole insinuates that she's hoping it was him. And that he caused his own death. What an unbelievably nasty bastard this guy is.

[etherealtruth]

6. I hope the jurors react the same way

I understand that a defense attorney is obliged to provide a vigorous defense on behalf of his/her client ... some things are simply despicable.

[Aerows]

7. Me, too

what a disgusting line of questioning and hideous group of insinuations. I can't imagine that playing well with a jury.

[VanillaRhapsody]

53. Despicable....that was a word I have also used to describe these proceedings...

I believe the defense are stomach churning racists

[csziggy]

152. Since all the jurors are women and most mothers, I hope they do!

From what I've read on other forums discussing the case, the defense has overstepped the bounds many times and irritated a lot of people. The way they badgered Rachel Jeantel, Trayvon's friend, their attitude towards Sybrina Fulton, Trayvon's mother, and their repetitive questioning of many witnesses has lost them a lot of points.

[Duckwraps]

8. A gracious lady whom

I'm sure knew what her cross examination would be like.

[bigtree]

10. grace, courage, humility

Donna Brazile ‏@donnabrazile 51m
God gave @SybrinaFulton grace to take the stand, humility while testifying and courage to see this through. #Justice4Trayvon


Sybrina Fulton ‏@SybrinaFulton 2h
Day 19 - I pray that God gives me strength to properly represent my Angel Trayvon. He may not be perfect but (cont) http://tl.gd/n_1rl6ih9
Retweeted by Donna Brazile

[AlinPA]

9. That lady is a clear thinking, loving mother. Her answers were amazingly perfect and crushed that

slimy lawyer who kept asking her if she hoped that it was her son who was suffering. I still can't believe that he would ask those questions over and over.

[hfojvt]

11. I don't put a lot of credence in her testimony

but there does not seem like a good way to refute it either.

It probably would have been better for the defense lawyer to just say, I am sorry for your loss and I have no questions. Then rebut her in his closing.

She is listening to a tape after she knows her son is dead. She hears her sons voice not because she knows that sound is from her son, but because she knows he is dead, therefore she knows it must have been him screaming for help.

[brush]

18. I second this post. nt

[crim son]

21. I'll give it another vote.

Anybody with children knows that his or her child's voice is unmistakable, *especially* when the child is in distress.

[ehrnst]

37. Yes, that's true. (nt)

[HockeyMom]

55. I could tell you which of my two girls were crying

Last edited Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:42 PM - Edit history (1)

Mothers know that. Hey, I can even tell you which of my two CATS are crying.

[DeschutesRiver]

68. Absolutely true, and yet this atty pulls this crap in front of an all women jury

Who, iirc, have children of their own.

This defense team has been spectacularly tone deaf in their approach. End of the day, they have a client who chased down and killed a kid because their client had beliefs that were totally unsupported by the facts. To blame the victim, by badgering his momma and friends is just too stupid for word, and I say this as a retired lawyer myself. I don't think this is going to work. We'll see.

[barbtries]

95. yep.

even my cats. and they want to pretend that she could not recognize the sound of her own son's voice?

the screaming stopped with the gunshot. just like that, silenced.

[Blue_Roses]

143. exactly...

I know their screams, cries, laughs, etc. It's in our DNA!

[hfojvt]

22. see, that's what she would claim

and again, there is no way to refute that argument, even though it is purely emotional.

Is dad gonna testify too? Does a dad not know the sound of his son's voice?

You are an idiot, if you think the statement "you are an idiot" is a rational argument.

[The Magistrate]

30. So Your Stand, Sir, Is That She Is Lying

Would that be because she is a woman, emotional and illogical and swayed by moods and intuitions, or because she is Negro, they being notoriously dis-honest and child-like and unintelligent, or because she is a harpy out for revenge against a man she sees a chance to harm?

"Enquiring minds want to know!"

[hfojvt]

44. in the words of EOR

"Think of all the possibilities, Piglet, before you settle down to enjoy yourselves."

Would enquiring minds also like to know if I have stopped beating my wife?

My stand is that she thinks she is telling the truth, which is different from the average lie. When a person lies, they know they are not telling the truth. She is absolutely certain that it is her sons voice. Because she knows he has been killed. He's dead, And that hurts like nothing else. It's astoundingly painful. So when I hear a tape of somebody screaming in the background, I KNOW, I absolutely KNOW, that is my son, because I know my son is dead.

[The Magistrate]

50. That, Sir, Would Be 'Because She Is A Woman, Emotional And Il-Logical....'

And calling something 'different from the average lie' is still branding a statement a lie, just one of a category within the class of all the various sorts of lies.

[hfojvt]

83. that's only true

if I have somehow implied that men feel no pain upon the death of their son.

Which I have not. 2 Samuel 18: 33 And I think of my own pain when a mere dog of mine suddenly died.

And yes I did write "average lie". Because there are many kinds of lies, but I don't think somebody is lying when they think they are telling the truth. But that does not mean I think they are correct either.

[The Magistrate]

88. Your Attempts At Extrication, Sir, Are Even More Lame Than Your Opening Bid

The matter stands at this: You say her identification of her son's screams should be disregarded because she is but a frail female, swayed by emotion and unable to discern the truth.

[hfojvt]

106. if you could just link to a post where I said that

you might have a case.

Otherwise those are just words that your imagination is trying to insert in my mouth.

And as I have said before, I do not like green slurs and ham, oh Sam I am.

[The Magistrate]

109. Your Problem, Sir, Is That Words in English Convey Meaning To People Who Speak English

And so people understand what you said, perfectly well....

[hfojvt]

112. that they do

but at no point did I ever say that her grief had anything to do with her gender.

Only with her being a parent.

But for those who are looking for enemies to hate or berate, I guess they will read what they want to read.

[ehrnst]

129. I find the lies of Zimmerman more telling, and more provable

For instance, saying that he knew nothing of the "stand your ground" law prior to the killing, when his teacher, who called him a good student, stated that law was discussed more than once in the class Zimmerman took.

[brush]

52. Illogical post by a poster who thinks it's pure logic. nt

[ehrnst]

80. So your stand is that she 'wanted' to hear her son screaming in pain and fear.

Because her non-emotional intellect knew that would implicate Zimmerman.

[hfojvt]

85. it isn't about what she wanted

it's about what she thought "Of course that's my son. My son is dead. Who else could it be?"

[lumpy]

118. You don't know what the hell she is thinking. I'll go along with the fact

that, being a mother also, I know my children's voices in every pitch, painor fear. Besides that, the screams indicate that they were screams of tremendous fear and desparation not necessarily cries for help.

[ehrnst]

124. Yep. I know that I, for one, would NOT want to hear cries of fear

and pain from my son, but would nonetheless.

[ehrnst]

128. Or she may have been gratified to hear that he got in a blow before he was gunned down.

I think that I might want my son's shooter to have suffered something in return.

[Blue_Roses]

145. So you think she "wanted" to hear her son scream

for help before he died? WTF? NO mother wants to "hear" her child in desperation or pain. Do you think she just ran out of the mayor's office in pain upon hearing the tape because she "wanted" to be in emotional pain?

Good grief. The desperation to defend Zimmerman's IRRESPONSIBLE, STUPID, and RACIST actions is deplorable.

[Blue_Roses]

146. are you a mind reader? how the hell can you possibly know what she thought?

Denial is always the first stage of grief and self-preservation. "Thoughts" or " thinking" is not something that is rational when presented with such horrendous sounds as your child screaming for help.

By the mere fact she recognized his voice immediately and ran out of the mayor's office shows profound emotional pain, and not "thoughts".

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

116. Martins family says it was Martin screaming for help

Last edited Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:08 PM - Edit history (1)

Zimmerman's family say it was Zimmerman. Zimmerman people have not as of yet been questioned about it in a court of law. Zimmerman's people will appear to be as sure on the stand as the Martin people were today about who they think was screaming for help.It works both ways.

And there is a thing called having been prepped for being questioned.

The voice tape is key to the case and it has already been established that there is no scientific way to identify who's voice it actually is.

If the defense hadn't stepped into Martin's mother somewhat ,than the defense wouldn't have done it's job. The prosecution will do the same when the Zimmerman people are on the stand.

Martin's 22 year old brother's answers seemed prepped to me. But that is how it all works.
The Zimmerman people will no doubt say they are sure the voice was Zimmerman's.
And Zimmerman's brother will no doubt be carefully prepped as to just how he should answer those questions ,that is if he thinks the voice is his brothers.

It's about guns.

Simply, if Zimmerman hadn't assumed the roll of victor of the community with his gun,he wouldn't have been looking for a confrontation. That means he will have stayed in his vehicle ,which is just what he was advised to do. You see like the cop said in court when questioned about Zimmerman's pursuit of Martin,- legally speaking Zimmerman broke no law giving chase or fallowing Martin.

Zimmerman was advised to stay in his vehicle-advised does not mean told as a matter of law.We must therefore except that Zimmerman made a very unwise decision fallowed by a series of poor choices.

It's about guns.

Lastly, it will be the jury's job to decide if it was murder or self defense. The court of public opinion matters not in the outcome of the trial.This is not to say public opinion does not matter- but face it everybody cannot fit into a jury box.

In my opinion Zimmerman is a sociopath-like Gilberto Valle the cannibal cop.
Valle thought NYC is filled with scum -thing is he didn't and doesn't see himself as such.
Isn't that odd ?

Sociopaths are indeed illusive.
And law is complicated.

[Callmecrazy]

123. Update: Zimmerman's mother was just on the stand

She was asked whose voice was screaming help and she of course said it was her son. One question and no cross and then dismissed. IMO she wasn't very convincing.

[Blue_Roses]

147. she was a great witness for the prosecution

Her answers were strong and solid.

[ehrnst]

126. Maybe I'm weird, but if someone killed my son

I might have hope he put up a fight against the killer, and inflicted some damage in retaliation.

[NM_Birder]

91. maybe....

She absolutely knows that is her sons voice without question, but nobody can prove it...... that doesn't make her correct, but it also doesn't make her a liar. It just makes her testimony in a court proceeding weak.

I haven't seen where any type of voice analysis has been able to prove whose voice is screaming for help. A mothers feelings are not admissible as fact, are they ?

Facts are what is required to be shown, in order to put Zimmerman behind bars, not feeling and opinion. Public opinion has already locked the cell door, while the prosecution has been busy offering reasonable doubt at every opportunity.

I don't think it's any of the choices you offer, I don't think you do either. I also don't think it was funny, but chuckle on...sir.

[The Magistrate]

92. Actually, Sir

A witness saying 'I recognize that as the voice of 'X'' is testimony to fact, just like a witness saying 'I recognize 'X' as the person at the window' would be.

What we have above is a person attempting to argue that a witness should not be believed, and the arguments for that boil down to the triad set forward. The person in question seems to have settled on the 'frail female' option....

[NM_Birder]

101. Ah, I get the "sir" thing now. Thought is was snark, sorry.

But I'm not sure about voice identification from a recording, carrying the same weight as an eye witness, or a photographic identification.

I don't thinks she's lying, but I'm not positive she is correct, it's a reasonable doubt. The prosecution has done a horrible job in my opinion, it seems everything they have presented has an odor of reasonable doubt.

I really didn't expect this case to be this uncertain when it came to trial.

[The Magistrate]

103. Jurors, Sir, Will Give It The Weight They Think Proper

I will not speculate on what that may be.

[uppityperson]

33. Wrong again. Sometimes "you are an idiot" is a very rational and accurate argument.

Not saying *you* are an idiot but merely comment that "you are an idiot" is sometimes a very rational and accurate point.

[WovenGems]

105. Sorry dude

Moms no the difference between twins crying. Moms rule. The defense would have been better served by saying "No questions". File this under "Defensive BooBoos".

[GreenStormCloud]

130. Z's Mom also claims that the screams were Z's.

Your same words can also be applied to Z's mother. Now what do you do?

[HockeyMom]

113. Had this conversation MANY times with my husband

"I don't hear any crying". "How can you tell WHO is crying (kids or cats)"? "I don't hear any noise from the TV". In the latter case, when I called service I was told by the repairman that this sound was only a problem for FEMALES and PETS.

Putting aside the issue of a mother knowing sound of her owns child's voice, there have been many studies of males versus females sense of hearing. All the studies have concluded that women have more of an acute sense of hearing than men, especially when it comes to high pitched sounds. Perhaps that comes down to protecting the young and survival of the species? You can do a search and read about. I know it's true from my own life experiences with my husband.

[pipi_k]

26. Oh wow...

good comeback there!

Rational, mature discussion!


yech

[NaturalHigh]

20. I agree - the defense should not have even cross examined her.

It's not like she was going to change her testimony, and asking any tough questions just makes him look like a bully.

[uppityperson]

23. Oh good grief. Not unexpected at all.

[nolabear]

25. You assume that. Your claim that she doesn't is spurious.

Unless you think it's impossible for a mother to recognize her son's screams. But you speak as though you're sure she doesn't, and you can't be.

[hfojvt]

58. I did not ever say it was impossible

what I claim is that it is not a slam dunk.

And heck, people sometimes miss slam dunks too.

However, when police do a line up, they put three or more other people in there with the suspect. Because for a witness to look at one person and go "that's the guy" is clearly not as reliable as a witness being able to pick the guy out of a group. If they saw a line up of ONE, then the witness would almost always be SURE.

Trayvon's mom did not listen to four tapes of people screaming and pick out the one that was her son. She listened to one tape from the incident where her son was killed.

[trumad]

27. Wow!

I'm guessing that means you believe Zimmerman when he said it was his scream?

[hfojvt]

64. Why wouldn't I?

Didn't witnesses say that one person was one top of the other and beating on that person?

If Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman pounding on him, why would Trayvon be screaming for help?

If Trayvon was not on top of Zimmerman, then how did Zimmerman get those injuries to his nose and the back of his head?

If Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon, then why does he shoot him? If he's already winning the fight, then why use his gun? To keep him quiet before somebody calls the cops? Zimmerman has already called the cops.

[1monster]

72. Another witness said that Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon...

And one very compelling reason, other than the mother's testimony (BTW, as I mother, myself, I KNOW that a mother will recognize her child's voice), is that the screaming stopped, dead, immediately after the gunshot.

[nyquil_man]

90. There you go.

Zimmerman told the detectives he wasn't even certain if he'd hit Trayvon when he shot. So why would he stop yelling for help the moment the shot was fired?

[barbtries]

96. zimmerman told the detectives all kinds of things.

there's the liar.

[nyquil_man]

97. Listening to those interviews with detectives was pretty enlightening for me.

If Zimmerman wasn't lying, he has an oddly false way of telling the truth.

[barbtries]

99. or

a sick view of the world

[brett_jv]

87. Um ...

"If Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman pounding on him, why would Trayvon be screaming for help?"

The forensic evidence does not show that Zimmerman was ever 'pounded' on. He had a few minor ABRASIONS, not even lacerations. In reality there's nothing, other than the murderers claims, to back the idea of that Trayvon ever was 'pounding on' Zimmerman.

"If Trayvon was not on top of Zimmerman, then how did Zimmerman get those injuries to his nose and the back of his head? "

Are you suggesting that during the course of a fight, it's not possible for one person to receive some injuries, but still be 'on top', at least at some point during the altercation? Because it sounds like you are, and frankly, that's just silly. Being 'on top' is not synonymous with 'completely injury-free'. To even suggest that it does indicates (to me) that you likely don't know enough about the subject of 'fighting' to really add anything to a discussion about a fight.

Also, wasn't it the prosecution that wanted to use voice recognition expert testimony w/regards to the cries for help? And didn't the defense protest this, and get that testimony disallowed? IOW, the ONE remotely legitimate opportunity that we had to identify who authored the screams was protested by Zimmerman, NOT the prosecution. What does that suggest to you, if you're remotely honest with yourself?

On top of that, there's also a tape of detective playing back the 911 tape that has the screams in the background to Zimmerman for the first time. In it, you can clearly hear the cop trying to convince GZ that the screams are indeed his, but Zimmerman is saying 'that doesn't even sound like me'. Ever heard that tape? You think he wouldn't KNOW that it was him, if he'd actually been screaming?

"If Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon, then why does he shoot him? If he's already winning the fight, then why use his gun? To keep him quiet before somebody calls the cops? Zimmerman has already called the cops."

Um ... I guess that would be 'the issue at hand', wouldn't it? How's this for an answer ... because he's a murderous racist prick, who didn't want to see "another 'f-ing punk' getting away with it again!"

[Rex]

114. There is no DNA from Zimmerman on Martin nor do his hands

show any sign of fighting. Some posters here are here just to stir up shit and I believe said poster is one of those types.

[BlueSpot]

151. Even on top

If somebody came at me with a gun and I was able to turn it around long enough to be on top for a bit, you can bet your ass I would still be screaming for help. Are you kidding me? One guy has a gun and the other doesn't. Would you stop screaming for help if you were the one without the gun even if you had what might be just a momentary advantage?

[Rex]

108. Said poster follows along almost the exact same transcript

as Foxnews. Sad ain't it?

[pipi_k]

32. I agree that

it probably would have been better for the defense not to have questioned her at all.

I don't think I could have...

[JVS]

117. Some of those questions were necessary to get information onto the record.

Defense wants to know who was in the room when it was played because they already know the entire family was there, they want that info to reach the jury. This relates to the audio expert's testimony that improper procedures can influence identification.

[ehrnst]

38. So you think that either she's lying, or doesn't know her son's voice.

Which is it?

[GreenStormCloud]

131. The exact same questions apply to Z's mother.

She has testified that the screams are her son's. So who is lying and who doesn't know her son's voice?

[ehrnst]

163. I am not accusing anyone of lying. I am not accusing anyone wishful thinking.

You are.

[liberalhistorian]

40. Yes, it absolutely had to have been Zimmerman

screaming, it simply must have been. Who wouldn't scream like that when they have a bag of skittles and a can of iced tea pointed at them to shoot them? Especially if that person has a gun and the other one doesn't. Why, I'd certainly be afraid of a bag of skittles and a can of iced tea if I had a gun, far more so than the other person should be afraid of my gun. Armed with such potent weapons as skittles and iced tea as the other person would have been, I'd know my gun was just useless and that's why I, with the gun, would be screaming.

Good God, the lengths to which clueless thoughtless people go on here to defend Zimmerman is truly sickening.

And I can tell you, as the mother of a son, I would damn fucking sure know when it was him screaming or yelling on a tape. I'd know his voice and scream anywhere. Of course, I hope to God I never have to hear it under such circumstances, but I'd damn sure know it.

[treestar]

49. very good

I too cannot get past this. Zimmerman knew he had a gun, would have soon known Trayvon did not have one. How are we to believe Zimmerman thought his own life was in danger? The use of deadly force was unreasonable.

How he got the gun out while pinned to the ground is impossible to fathom or believe likely. And if he had control of the gun, he could have shot a less deadly shot. Of course then Trayvon would be around to tell his side of what happened. Zimmy couldn't have that.

[DallasNE]

84. Not Only Did He Have A Gun

But a round was already chambered. All Zimmerman had to do was to apply the 4.5 pounds of pressure to the trigger and it was all over. And Martin's DNA was not found on either the gun or holster.

[Voice for Peace]

157. I have no doubt he had his hand on his gun the moment he stepped out of the car

and as he walked through the development looking
for Trayvon.

I guess it's a theory that can't be proved, but if
he had a hand on his gun, he would have only
one hand for balance or self-defense and easily
could be thrown off balance, fall down and
hit his head. Trayvon sees the hand on the
gun and gets on top of him, trying to prevent
Zimmerman from taking it out of the holster,
and screaming for help.

[DallasNE]

159. Only 40 Seconds Passed Between When

Jeantel testified Travon asked George "Why are you following me". At one point Martin said "get off" and a neighbor called 911 when she heard a shouting match. She was still on the phone when this very loud scream for help was heard and the gunshot silenced the scream. My guess is that Martin hit Zimmerman with a hard left jab to end the shouting match followed by a scuffle when Martin said "get off" so Zimmerman got off, pulled out his gun and shot Martin close range in cold blood. That should all take roughly 40 seconds.

Yes, there could be other scenarios but the 25-30 head bangs into the cement doesn't fit within the 40 seconds when you take out the yelling on the front and the scream on the back of that time period and how does Zimmerman draw his gun with MMA style blows raining down on him since Zimmerman has said that Martin had his knees pinning down his arms. So if Martin is that high up on Zimmerman's body how can Zimmerman get the gun in position for a straight on shot. If Martin was bent over as the defense claims then Martin's chest would have been above Zimmerman's head. I'm guessing the jury will sketch out various positions to determine what is possible and what is not. But one thing is clear, Martin could not have been low enough down on Zimmerman to be bending over as Zimmerman shot him while also being high enough up to have his knees pinning Zimmerman's arms down. Keep in mind that the bullet struck Martin 1 inch to the left of center of his chest with a straight on angle, meaning the gun had to be inside of Martin's arms and virtually under his chin. Zimmerman's story simply doesn't pass the smell test nor does the story of Good.

[brush]

54. Thank you for this post. The Z supporters seem to have reached delusion. nt

[JDPriestly]

56. There you put your finger on the big contradiction in Zimmerman's theory of the case.

Zimmerman claims he had cause to be reasonably afraid of death or serious bodily harm, but he had a gun. Trayvon Martin was taller than Zimmerman and younger, but Zimmerman was considerably heavier. As a small person myself, I would say that I would have difficulty in a struggle with anyone who was heavier than I am even if he or she was smaller. Just by size, Zimmerman was in a good position to defend himself without using his gun.

Most certainly, if you think about it Zimmerman would not have screamed and reached for his gun and fought Trayvon Martin off of him all at the same time. The story just doesn't make sense. Try to picture it.

Zimmerman had to have his gun in his hand before Trayvon Martin started screaming.

Contrary to popular thought, lawyers are ethically bound to avoid bringing frivolous arguments (from a legal point of view) or lies before the court.

A very famous defense lawyer was asked by a law student how to comply with that rule if a criminal defendant was lying and the lawyer knew it. And the famous defense lawyer answered, "Don't put him on the stand."

In the case that the defense attorney and law student were discussing, the famous lawyer did not put his client on the stand.

We shall see whether Zimmerman goes on the stand to be cross-examined. If not . . . . . .

[Just Saying]

60. This is really what makes me believe it was Trayvon screaming.

That kind of scream is from someone clearly terrified. Zimmerman had a gun! What reason would a guy trained in fighting, who had tracked down the kid and was armed ever scream like that? It's beyond reason to me. I simply don't believe Zimmerman had anything to scream like that about.

[laundry_queen]

66. Yes, you can tell that the screaming is from someone who is absolutely terrified for their life.

I agree with your assessment.

[HockeyMom]

61. Recording of Trayvon Martin's actual voice - Decide yourself

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/trayvon-martin-case-voice-recording-emerges-lawyers-ready-19346403

[hfojvt]

67. as the mother of a son

Do you admit that your son could be a threat to somebody even if he was not armed with anything besides iced tea and a bag of skittles?

He's a 17 year old male, not a gossamer butterfly. Teayvon Martin was the same size that I am.

I don't need a weapon to threaten or harm somebody who is about my size. I've got two fists of iron (thank you George Thoroughgood). Somebody might scream for help if I had them down on the ground and was pounding on them. Isn't that possible?

[Just Saying]

69. Anyone can be a threat to anyone.

I don't think Tayvon was delicate but he was a thin, gangly kid and Zimmerman was a heavier, healthy man who trained in fighting.

Who was more of a threat?

Now bring in the gun and answer that question. BOTH men had the right to defend themselves.

I just don't believe Zimmerman had reason to scream like that but I think Trayvon did. If I'm talking about reasonable doubt, I can't justify believing it was Zimmerman screaming. That's my opinion and the jury will form their own.

[frylock]

81. so given the choice, would you rather square off against someone with tea and skittles..

or the person with a gun? in what scenario would you think your life would be endangered to a greater degree?

[The Magistrate]

86. The Lethal Danger Of The Un-Armed Versus The Armed, Sir...

Is one of my favorite parts of these discussions.

[Rex]

111. I doubt it, said poster is just trying to slam a dead kid

said poster has no shame at all.

[liberalhistorian]

104. Well, first of all, my son is white,

so I have an unfortunate advantage right there in that I don't have to worry nearly as much about his safety as he goes about his daily routine and his own business as mothers of sons who are not white do. And, second, he's gonna be a lot less threat to someone who has a gun, period. If you have a gun and your "opponent" (for want of a better word in this whole sad, sick, sorry situation) does not, then you have a lot less reason to be or feel threatened, period, the end.

And if my son, while DOING NOTHING BUT MINDING HIS OWN DAMN FUCKING BUSINESS WALKING HOME FROM A DAMN STORE, was profiled based on racist suspicions by someone who then followed and harassed him for no reason other than his own preconceived notions and biases, and this AFTER being told by the 911 operator that he didn't need to get out of his car to follow the kid but who then kept saying "he looks like he's up to no good", "he's wearing a hoodie" (when it's fucking raining, so what the fuck would he expect him to wear?) when he was DOING NOTHING OF SUSPICION, then you'd better damn well believe I'd expect my son to defend himself. Zimmerman brought this all entirely on himself. There was no reason whatsoever for him to follow, harass, then murder TM, except for his own macho ego and his own prejudiced biases.

[Rex]

110. What a total line of BS, you would be shot! Did you forget the other guy

had a gun! Pathetic, your attempts to smear the dead are Foxnews worthy and ghoulish. You should be ashamed, but I doubt you have that gene.

[gollygee]

127. +1

I know my kids' voices and screams anywhere, and could pick them out of a crowd of voices.

[Jerry442]

42. Somebody said recently that defense lawyers do agressive questioning...

...because they're trying to drum up business from future defendants who believe (probably mistakenly) that a "mad dog" lawyer is the best one to have. In this case, I'm beginning to think that's true.

Sorry not to credit the person who said that but I don't recall who it was.

[riqster]

62. Speaking as a parent, it is always easy to tell when it is YOUR child's voice.

We don't need to follow some 101-level inductive reasoning process like, "She is listening to a tape after she knows her son is dead. She hears her sons voice not because she knows that sound is from her son, but because she knows he is dead, therefore she knows it must have been him screaming for help. "

Parents know their children and their voices. And I can tell you as a parent who has lost his child, I could easily pick out his voice from a tape with no effort whatsoever. Not because he's dead, or I wish it were his voice: no, because I heard that voice for 20 years and know it better than almost anyone else on the planet. No "logic" needed.

Logic when proceeding from an invalid premise is invalid. So it goes with your tremendously insensitive, ill-informed post.

[Just Saying]

70. As a mom of two boys you're totally correct.

Through a sea of voices you can recognize your own kids. It's an instinctive thing.

I'm very sorry for your loss.

[riqster]

119. Thanks.

At least I haven't had to endure what she did on the stand.

[barbtries]

98. thank you rigster.

i too have lost a child. i heard her voice for just over 21 years. i know the sound of it. Sabrina Fulton knows the sound of her son's voice and it's absurd to suggest that she does not.

[riqster]

120. My condolences.

[barbtries]

125. and mine to you

[LanternWaste]

63. He and his wife committed wire fraud. We may only presume that to maintain consistency...

He and his wife committed wire fraud. We may only presume that to maintain consistency, you put little credence to his side of the story too.

[WinkyDink]

73. Maybe she actually recognized it.

[Rex]

107. Of course not and in other news, water is wet.

You and Foxnews agree on something, what a shocker!

[JVS]

115. "for the defense lawyer to just say, I am sorry for your loss "

he started out that way and the prosecutor objected on the grounds that that's a comment and not a question and was sustained

[John2]

12. I think

Zimmerman's whole defense is ludicrous. I don't think Trayvon Martin circled back to kill this dude or told Zimmerman you are going to die. Zimmerman and his defense team is making Trayvon Martin out of a hardcore criminal. The only person killed someone and guilty of murder is Zimmerman. Trayvon Martin doesn't have a history of fighting or assaulting anybody like Zimmerman does. Something the defense got on a twitter account, doesn't prove anything. Kids say anything on a twitter account, doesn't mean it happened. That would be hearsay, not evidence, like Zimmerman's criminal records or a witness, he attacked. His whole defense team is bluster. The prosecution should have called their bluff. The defense will call Zimmerman's friends and family. I sincerely hope they open the door to his so called All American Boy protrayal and the prosecution pounce on it. Zimmerman has a history of attacking people. Attacking Trayvon Martin was not out of his character.

[Jenoch]

13. I thought the lawyer's job in

a case such as this one is to make his client look sympathetic to the jury. Being an asshole to the victim's mother does not seem to help his client.

[John2]

15. His whole

theme is to paint this kid as a hardcore criminal, that supported Zimmerman's profile of Martin, as up to no good. So he was trying to paint his mother as a liar, the same way. I'm surprised he didn't try to paint Trayvon's brother as up to no good also. I sincerely doubt his mother raised a murderer. That is a big leap, to jump from juvenile misdemeanors, to a cold blooded murderer, which Zimmerman accused Trayvon was intending to do. Think about it now. There were witnesses, and Trayvon was on the cell phone with a person. What Zimmerman is claiming is just stupid for people to buy.

[Jenoch]

17. So far, this trial

has a lot of ups and downs for each side. One day it seems as if the prosecution is winning and the next day the defense is winning.

[John2]

24. Zimmerman and his

defense team's concoction of a story, hasn't fooled me from day one! He has been caught in inconsistancies and his story is just stupid! Zimmerman had it in for this kid from the first time he spotted him. Anybody buying he didn't is in denial. Anybody claiming he didn't pursue this kid is in denial! Anybody claiming this boy had a significant physical advantage over this grown man is in denial! It is beyond comprehension, the way people try to explain all those facts away. The gun gave Zimmerman a huge advantage.

Not only that, Zimmerman had already loaded it with the safety off. It gets even more stupid, when Zimmerman claims, Martin told him that he was going to kill him, with all the witnesses, that saw the fight and him speaking on his cellphone about seeing Zimmerman. People need to see it for what it is.

[Jenoch]

34. I have tried to stay objective about the case as I learn about the testimony.

I like hearing facts. You have made a statement that is part fact and part fiction.

"Zimmerman had already loaded it with the safety off."

Of course the gun was loaded. What's the point of carrying an unloaded gun? Zimmerman used a double-action handgun, it has no safety.

I think Zimmerman should have only been carrying a flashlight, cell phone, and pepper spray for self-defense.

[ceonupe]

43. Earth to john.....

I am specificly responding to you and others who keep repeating this.


MOST DEFESIVE STRIKER FIRED HANDGUNS DON'T HAVE AN EXTERNAL SAFTEY!


Most defensive handguns are designed to be carded loaded with a round in the chamber.

Most interactions with a gun used happen in split seconds you don't have time to draw weapon rack slide ensure loaded chamber then gain sight picture and fire.


It is clear you don't carry and have very little if any firearms experience

[dem in texas]

14. A Mother Knows

You can't fool a mother, she instantly recognized her son's voice in the scream tape. It is so sad that she has to go through this ordeal after losing her son to some crazy policeman wanna-be.

[Cali_Democrat]

59. Exactly

A mother knows.

[MoreGOPoop]

65. As a mother

I can attest to this. It was a common occurence to hear my
daughter in a noisy room full of kids before visually spotting her.
Especially if she was crying. Mothers on the jury will understand.

[JustAnotherGen]

132. Ms. Fulton looked

Heartbroken when she answered the questions.

Mrs Zimmerman looked hesitant and sounded confused.

I believe Trayvon's mom. Hopefully the jury will too.

[MoreGOPoop]

133. My own heart breaks for her, too.

As jaded as I am, I'll still never understand hate or the lack of love.

[HappyMe]

100. That's exactly right.

A mom knows. It's deep in your very being and your blood.

[freshwest]

142. Your child's cry is part of your body.

A friend and I were talking about this very thing the other night. About how your womb draws up in pain when you hear the cry of your child.

When my child was missing, I felt as if I had been eviscerated. There was no other word for it.

The connection between a mother who loves her child never leaves her. Trayvon's mother knows who was screaming.

Shame on that man and all who enabled this crime.

[yardwork]

19. Horrible. The defense is disgusting.

[winter is coming]

28. Wow. That was stupid. n/t

[Deep13]

29. solid witness. I don't blame counsel for doing his duty...

...especially with such a crummy case to work with.

[JDPriestly]

48. Duty? That was really stupid. A female jury and he insulted the mother like that.

Doesn't he know how many women's very ears are attuned to the sound of a child or kid crying?

Even now, after so many years, no matter where I am, if I hear a child crying or screaming, I look. If an animal makes a sound like a child or baby crying, my ears perk up. I think it is biological. Doesn't the defense have one mother on its team?

[Deep13]

57. The defense has a racist murderer and that's about it.

Like I said, they've got nothing to work with.

[Just Saying]

31. The jury will take into account that this is the victim"a mother

Which means they will see her as defending him. But she also was a very strong witness, I think she can recognize her son's voice and her dignity and poise says something about the kind of boy she raised. All of those are things the jury will think about too.

And the defense lawyers continue to look like assholes. I wouldn't underestimate the impact that has on the jury.

[John2]

36. The prosecution needs

to be very aggressive with Zimmerman's friends and family. Especially, Zimmerman's wife and her allegdedly being accused of perjury. if his family lies in any way on the stand, especially Mr Zimmerman being a former magistrate, they will be ripe for perjury. They better think about what they say on the stand trying to cover up for Zimmerman.

[ceonupe]

47. You assume these people will be called

You assume these people will be called.


The most Likly won't be.

The states case is weak at best for 2nd degree.

I expect a short defense case and cl

[southernyankeebelle]

35. The defense has a job to do. But I will tell you this lady sure held her own. Good job

for the mother. But folks I hate to say it I think Zimmerman is going to get away with murder. Blood will be on his hands because I think it will be a riot in the streets. The only people that will save that terrible state will be Trayvon's parents who will come out and ask the people not to riot. I hate to say it.

[AtheistCrusader]

39. What an amazing person.

I couldn't have done that. I wouldn't have been able to control my temper. I would have taken the bait.

She is standing up for her son admirably.

[ellisonz]

41. God grant this woman peace of mind.

[bunnies]

45. I would have said...

"Unless my son shot that bullet into his own heart, there is no way he caused his own death" (asshole). She was WAY more poised than I would have been.

[lumpy]

149. Haven't been able to think why the defense would of asked Trayvon's Mom

why she might think Trayvon caused his own death unless he was trying to get her to say he was a problem . It was a very strange question to ask at any rate. I get the feeling the defense is grasping at straws.

[Voice for Peace]

156. he was trying to introduce doubt about her id, by suggesting it was wishful thinking

that was my take.. but your point is an interesting
one and maybe it was part of his low approach.
She didn't take the bait, as someone said upthread
which was beautiful to watch.

[JDPriestly]

46. What a stupid line of questioning.

Maybe the defense attorney hoped to confuse Trayvon Martin's mother or cause her to become angry, but it seems to me that this line of questioning to a jury of women would cause the jury's hearts to break. How many mothers are on that jury?

[csziggy]

153. Some Zimmerman supporters say she was too calm, too composed

It's been nearly a year and a half since her son was murdered. Almost that long since she first heard that recording. She's had very smart legal advice from Benjamin Crump and I am sure she was prepped for her testimony.

She is an intelligent, strong woman whose goal has been to get justice for her son. She knew that she had to be calm, clear, and consistent about her testimony on this subject.

I hope she and her son, Jahvaris, were as convincing to the jury as they were to me.

On the other hand, I was not convinced by Mrs. Zimmerman and her brother. Neither came out with their statements that they thought it was Zimmy until after Mark O'Mara was hired. I bet O'Mara wanted to turn it into a "they said - we said" situation.

[Voice for Peace]

154. the uncle wasn't very convincing, though he was passionate

it just didn't add up.. unless I misunderstood him,
he claimed to know nothing about the case, only
happened to hear screaming, by chance, coming
from the TV, where his sister was watching the
news and there was a report about SOMEthing
but he didn't know what it was, but he heard
that screaming from the next room and it was
like..what what?? that's my zimmy!! why is my
zimmy screaming? like that

His facts weren't believable.

[csziggy]

155. Yep - you have the uncle nailed

And I also think it's more likely that Zimmy got off on some of his charges (resisting a police office or whatever) because of his uncle the Orange County sheriff's deputy than because his father was an unimportant retired magistrate from another state.

[JDPriestly]

158. She seemed very composed and dignified.

Her answers were beautiful in my view.

O'Mara was trying to insult her and make her angry or cause her to mis-speak. That's what attorneys do to witnesses. It is part of the job.

[csziggy]

161. Sybrina Fulton was wonderful and has been all along

Maybe it's his job to defend his client but I think O'Mara's approach may have alienated more jurors than he converted to believe in his client.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

51. What's next? Accusing her of not teaching her son to be more respectful?

[WinkyDink]

74. To not buy snack food.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

89. Or dressing him that way.

[MisterP]

79. or not making him bulletproof by dipping him in the Styx?

[MrSlayer]

71. This is why people despise lawyers.

This is their job. What kind of a morally bankrupt person do you have to be to badger a mother whose son was murdered or the victim of a brutal rape in order to get your scumbag client off?

Your job is to lie, obfuscate and generally make a shitfog of the facts. I could never be one.

[Voice for Peace]

160. bingo!

[LittleBlue]

75. The defense attorney is doing his job

This is normal. He has to defend his client by whatever means he can, and that includes cross-examining Trayvon's mother.

These threads make me uncomfortable because this type of questioning should be expected; acting like it's harsh and unnecessary ignores the attorney's duty to represent his client. He shouldn't set aside that responsibility just to make viewers feel better.

[bigtree]

82. just like the jurors

. . . we're also 'expected' to include our own impressions of the defense in making judgments on the lawyer's* presentation which is often subjective, and, in this case, speculative and leading.

I think he's made a disgraceful mess of his 'responsibility,' here.

[frylock]

76. cnn "experts" will be telling us that it was a another terrible day for the prosecution

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

102. Which is good news for McCain!

Sorry, in situations like this, sometimes you have to joke.

[JimDandy]

121. This could actually be good news for Justice For Trayvon.

Whatever outcome CNN predicts in high profile legal cases, the jury rules the opposite.

CNN=OJ guilty; Jury=not guilty
CNN=Casey Anthony guilty; Jury=not guilty

therefore:

CNN=George Zimmerman not guilty; Jury=GUILTY.

Hope the pattern holds!

[Anarcho-Socialist]

77. That iced tea and Skittles lifestyle is to blame surely

[JDPriestly]

78. She did a great job. She was honest and sincere and did not get confused. Great job.

[barbtries]

93. it didn't play well either.

he sounded like an idiot. you must have hoped you would hear Trayvon screaming because otherwise you would have to conclude that his death was his own fault?!

what a reach. to emptiness. convict the bastard.

[onethatcares]

122. to speak as she did

with the pain that she is feeling,

I don't have the words to describe how I support her.

[yurbud]

134. both the prosecution and defense in the case are painfully simple:

prosecution: An armed man chased down and shot an unarmed boy.

Defense: a black male was shot by a half white man because he was afraid of him.

That defense was why nearly all white on black murders in the South never made it to court until after the Civil Rights Act.

[Socal31]

162. You really took the MSM's race baiting hook-line-sinker, huh?

"White on black"

"Black male, half white man"


If he is 50%/50%, why did you default to "white"? Do you call President Obama "white"? Is there any way to know his exact ancestry?

Some people are foaming at the mouth to paint this as a black/white thing, but nobody is buying it anymore. It comes down to did Zimmerman act in self-defense, or was it Murder/Manslaughter? Hopefully the jury looks at the evidence, deliberates fairly, and reaches a conclusion based on what was presented to them.

If the NRA gets mad because Z goes to prison, f 'em. If people call for riots on the street because he is acquitted, f 'em.

Hopefully the jury was not tainted due to the initial headlines, and they reach the same conclusion they would on any other trial of the sort, whichever that may be. I do not pretend to know what that is, and I have not followed the trial close enough to even have an opinion I could defend.

[Cha]

135. Wow, Trayvon's Mom is Good!

Perfect way to strike back at defense lawyer who thinks he's slicker than shite.

thanks bigtree

[miked62916]

137. How disgusting

I can't wait for this whole charade to be finally over, and George end up behind bars for a long, long time.

[gollygee]

138. That poor woman has been through so much

My heart aches with her. She was very strong.

[Blue_Roses]

139. she was a great witness for the prosecution

Strong,solid answers. O'Mara was stumbling all over himself to get her to say it might have been Trayvon's fault he was shot. Tacky and it did nothing for the defense but show desperation.

[gollygee]

140. I don't know how helpful it was in front of a jury made up of

women who are potentially mothers themselves, either.

[Azathoth]

150. Oh fer Chrissake

This wasn't some objective academic experiment to see whether mothers can identify their sons' screams over distorted cell phone recordings. Fulton listened to that tape knowing full well that if the screams contained on it were Zimmerman's it would be compelling proof her son attacked someone and thus provoked his own death. There was nothing objective about her testimony, and O'Mara had the duty to point that out to the jury.

Of couse, hours later Zimmerman's mother testified that she was certain it was Zimmerman's voice. Clearly, we should discount her testimony because either she's a liar, or she has simply convinced herself of something that isn't true in order to exonerate her son, right?