How big is this NSA scandal?

[kentuck]

Is what we have learned only the "tip of the iceberg"?

It seems to me to be growing exponentially every day. First, the Europeans were angry with us for spying on them. Then we pissed off all of Latin America by requesting countries in Europe close off air space to the Bolivian plane carrying the Bolivian president. What next?

We have been told there is another bombshell coming. But do we really care? Snowden is a traitor and that is all that matters. Right?

[Cleita]

1. Yes, our country has been like a dog with a bone he won't let go of regarding

Assange and now Snowden. Any other consideration of common sense has been thrown aside. Nothing matters but getting those two in irons alongside Bradley Manning. They must be desperately trying to cover up what our shadow government has been doing in the name of security. I think it will reveal the police state we have turned into and maybe much worse.

[treestar]

47. We might be like a dog with a bone with any at large

subject of criminal charges. There are many more of them.

I don't think we've done a thing regarding Julian. That is all in his head.

[Cleita]

48. I can't believe you believe this. Do you only read what you want to be told? n/t

[treestar]

69. I don't see how my post deserved that

unless you are projecting, perhaps? Eddie is not the only fugitive out there. it defies common sense. We have not done anything to Julian. There are no charges pending. At most there was a grand jury looking at it.

[nineteen50]

64. I think it is bigger than just the U.S.

we are moving into an international security world most countries leaders are in support of what we are doing. I think the one world order needs this crackdown to solidify and make possible their agendas. If they know who, when, where and how resistance will occur they can PREEMPT. Reaction will be based on what the authorities define as intent. Trials will be based on intent as much as action. Just my thoughts.

[Dustlawyer]

71. They are telling potential future whistle blowers that we will go to the ends of the earth to hunt

them down! They do not want anymore whistles blown!
We need to protest en mass for publicly funded elections. Almost ALL OF OUR POLITICIANS ARE BOUGHT OFF! Representative Democracy is dead unless you are a big corporation or a 1 percenter!
COMPLETE CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM IS THE NEXT REVOLUTION! Lets isolate the shadow government that pulls our current corrupt politician's strings!

[Cleita]

72. This is the ultimate solution, but I'm afraid there will be blood in the streets again

before we get TPB to agree to this.

[brooklynite]

80. and by "go to the ends of the earth" you mean "issue an arrest warrant"?

[KittyWampus]

2. It's only big on DU and a few other outposts on the internet. Europe makes requisite noise

and it's done with. Latin America uses outrage against America as per usual. Nothing new.

You need to get off DU and mingle with people in real life more.

[kentuck]

3. I recall hearing that same comment about Watergate.

'It's just some left-wing conspiracy theory".

[silvershadow]

43. +1

[Waiting For Everyman]

50. Yes -- Watergate was a nothing-burger to most people for a year. Very few followed it at all.

Until all of a sudden, it was a big effing deal. Complex stories take some time to come together.

[KittyWampus]

56. Your post is content free. You OP is nothing but an invitation for more reactionary screaming.

How about you post specific facts about the NSA that you think warrant being compared to Watergate.

[bvar22]

78. ^^Example of a "content free" post.^^

Thanks.

[bobduca]

96. Maybe you can draw us a mapquest map

[Pholus]

11. I have been, at our community 4th fireworks. They don't like it neither.

And that was something that team colors doesn't divide them on. The lefties (real ones, not Third Wayers) realize how much social justice will be harder to get if Hoover is always collecting. The righties are like we were in 2005 -- they see it as a tool of oppression by the evil Obama -- though if DU is any indication they'll probably be peachy if the boss has the right right colors has it. The independents are just offended -- they don't like being treated as a suspect by default.

If you're going to triangulate on this issue to win elections, you'd better realize surveillance is another very hot third rail.

Then again, the secrecy surrounding exactly what we're doing is a tacit admission that some know this already.

[silvershadow]

44. Not just surveillance. An entire body of secret law...so secret, Congress has to ask...nt

[Pholus]

52. Absolutely. This issue is the first in a while that has cross-party line stirring.

That may be why so much fear is shown.

[leveymg]

38. What makes you the Go-to-Girl for the Pulse of the People, Ms. W?

There seems to be a roughly equal split in the way this is lining up, right across all sectors of America, including the corporate media. Globally, we're digging a deeper bunker (or grave) for ourselves.

Granted, most people hold a split opinion -- they're glad to have had their eyes opened, and see the need for change, but have some problems with how Snowden did it. That includes me.

The general exception to the above seems to be for those who work for the government -- or want to -- the true believers, apparachiks and secret policemen who have to protect their precious security clearances, their meal tickets. Leaking is automatically threatening and a very bad thing to them. Sorry to see how you've lined up.

[KittyWampus]

62. LOL! I have serious issues with the NSA. So your last line is bullshit.

[leveymg]

76. Why don't you share that first part with us. What are your issues?

[kentuck]

77. I would like to hear those also.

Last edited Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:05 PM - Edit history (1)

Just out of curiosity.

[treestar]

46. My thought too. Huge on DU.

[Mojorabbit]

86. The guardian has had record numbers of unique hits from America

so I think a lot of people are following this story.

[Jackpine Radical]

4. That is a question that I've been asking myself for a long time now.

It shows every sign of being a game-changing b*mbsh&ll (no point in making it too easy for those f^ckers), but I've thought that of a number of past, media-grabbing events such as Fitzmas & Deepwater Horizon. Each time I thought, "the people are mad as hell and they ain't gonna take this any more."

And each time I was wrong.

[kentuck]

6. The only difference being....

...that this time it is world-wide.

[HardTimes99]

19. I've given up making predictions, because I suck at them. My wife and I have

been speaking almost exclusively of the NSA and related matters for the past two weeks. Then I read stories on DU this morning from prominent high-post-count members that the topic barely surfaced at their July 4 family gatherings. I guess it will take something like Latin American nations grounding Air Force 1 and demanding to board it to search for Luis Posada Carriles and Orlando Bosch for Americans to wake up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubana_de_Aviaci%C3%B3n_Flight_455

[bvar22]

79. And then there are the anecdotal testimonies where Government Secrecy, Government Over Reach,

...Government Intrusion, and the militarization of local Police Departments WERE primary topics of conversation,
like at the 4th of July gatherings I attended.
So, where lies the TRUTH?

[grasswire]

84. Ha! Bush fixers will never allow Bosch to be in danger. NT

[hedgehog]

5. Does anyone really believe that any country is surprised to be told

the US is spying on them? I think any protests we hear are merely pro forma.

[think]

21. Russ Tice's new claims of the Supreme court justices being wiretapped shocked me

Russ Tice; whistle blower who exposed the illegal wiretapping under Bush; goes on to say leaders of congress, then Senator Obama, members of the White House, journalists, lawyers & law firms, wire also targeted.

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/tag/russ-tice/

But I guess I'm one of the naive people that didn't think the NSA would ever go to those lengths of violating the law.

It was obvious there was rampant and out of control spying under Bush but to the extent Russ Tice is claiming is bone chilling yet still ignored.

And the links to the former CIA directors and employees to private contractors like Booz Allen are also fairly new information to me. I knew of these types of things but not the "who, what, why, wheres, and when" all this was happening:

How Booz Allen Made the Revolving Door Redundant
By Pratap Chatterjee

WASHINGTON, Jun 17 2013 (IPS) - Edward Snowden, a low-level employee of Booz Allen Hamilton who blew the whistle on the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA), unexpectedly exposed a powerful and seamless segment of the military-industrial complex – the world of contractors that consumes some 70 percent of this country’s 52-billion-dollar intelligence budget.

~snip~

To best understand this tale, one must first turn to R. James Woolsey, a former director of CIA, who appeared before the U.S. House of Representatives in the summer of 2004 to promote the idea of integrating U.S. domestic and foreign spying efforts to track “terrorists”.

One month later, he appeared on MSNBC television, where he spoke of the urgent need to create a new U.S. intelligence czar to help expand the post-9/11 national surveillance apparatus.

On neither occasion did Woolsey mention that he was employed as senior vice president for global strategic security at Booz Allen, a job he held from 2002 to 2008....

~Snip~
Full article:

http://www.ipsnews.net/2013/06/how-booz-allen-made-the-revolving-door-redundant/

[hedgehog]

30. This is a claim of illegal surveillance for political and/or private purposes,

something I find very concerning.

The outsourcing of spying is also wrong, IMO.

[think]

33. Very cool.

[silvershadow]

45. Oh, crap...hadn't seen this. This deserves it's own post, if it hasn't already. Off to read...nt

[think]

53. TY. I just posted the Booz Allen piece to GD

[midnight]

74. I'm not sure what topic you believe deserves it's own post, but I posted a video

talking about some of this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017128069

A few people commented..

[Raine1967]

55. Think: that second link appears to be incorrect, did you mean this one?

http://www.ipsnews.net/2013/06/how-booz-allen-made-the-revolving-door-redundant/

[think]

58. I did link to the wrong story. Thank you for letting me know that! Updated

to the correct link.

Thank you!

[Raine1967]

68. You're welcome.

It was a very informative read, and I think people should read it!

[Mojorabbit]

87. I had not seen this. Thanks nt

[Pholus]

31. I appreciate your realism -- how does that extend to DOMESTIC surveillance.

Do we rubber stamp the creation of massive databases on us in the name of national security? I hardly have to repeat weeks worth of links that establish that the Govt. is building massive data centers and is buying commercial databases as fast as they can. 75% of Total Information Awareness's initiatives exists in DARPA by other names and some of them (Anomaly Detection in Massive Databases, to wit) don't seem to have a purpose without large datasets to mine.

The discussion question is: If you are going to justify the violation of our 4th amendment (and by extension Griswold v. Connecticut whose Supreme Court ruling says we have a right to privacy) with some flimsy national security dodge that it is okay to collect as much as you want as long as you don't look until a legal threshold is passed, where is the dividing line that says that the same technique cannot be done to US citizens in general for domestic law enforcement?

And as long as you're so motivated to protect NSA spying on US citizens, just keep in mind that the Supreme Court ruling on Griswold is all that stands between you and the American version of the Taliban and its visions of what your morality looks like.

[sibelian]

66. I don't want your country spying on mine.

I don't want my country spying on yours either.

Thanks.

[Skidmore]

7. Honestly, I don't know.

How big is the iceberg? I don't know? Is it the tip or the whole thing? I don't know, and neither does anyone else on this board. And everyone is only guessing because the way the system is set up doesn't allow for confirmation of much. At this moment it is as big or as small as you want it to be.

As for all the stuff about Snowden and spying, I think it is more nuanced than the binary world of the internet chatboard. Flip side of these black and white arguments would be just declare the nation to be the Great Satan and be done with it.

Get Congress to do its job and revisit the Patriot Act and the FiSA provisions. Revise or repeal, I don't care which. But speculating in circles on chat boards does not equate with constructive or positive action moving forward.

[graham4anything]

8. I was at the beach yesterday, 250 plus people from the neighborhood. ZERO talked about this.

Those that talked politics talked about the voting rights acts and the Zimmy case.

just an incidental, one I see repeated every single day in the real world.

I have yet to hear one person outside of here talk about it.

And I am a nosy type person that listens even while swimming.

I did here a few people talk about The Lone Ranger Movie. Johnny Depp is popular.

[kentuck]

9. Are you suggesting it is no story at all?

Europe and Latin America are pissed off for no reason?

[wtmusic]

12. Not surprised. They believe the media is a barometer of what's important. nt

[sibelian]

13. Wellll, no. I imagine they wouldn't.

Seeing as how they were at the beach.




?

[think]

24. The lack of public knowledge is more an indication of the misinformation the M$M

served them up for breakfast under the guise of being "news" rather than a statement as to the importance of these national events.

All the whistleblowers are blue in the face and the M$M chatters on.....

[graham4anything]

29. no, people have things of importance to them, others have different things.

Here, no matter what side, we are all in unison in being political people day to day we talk about politics.

Most people to speak honestly, have tuned it all out in the one side said the other side said world
and it is all tuned out

And the funny thing is, this would be a U.N. issue.
Yet, most against Obama are against the UN (not necessarily here, but in the real world.)

[think]

37. Yes, people do have more important things in their immediate lives.

And I understand they are distracted.

And no I am not against Obama. I am against the NSA/CIA revolving door with private contractors like Booz Allen that have created the shit pot we are in.

[Skidmore]

59. There have been a lot of people sucked up in that sector of the economy that supports

the defense/intelligence industries. Remember during the Bush era when they were constantly advertising for translators? Also what percentage of the tech jobs that are not held by enlisted military personnel have absorbed civilian personnel from a job market that was flagging for sometime? Perhaps those contractors are closely tied to the economic success of the communities where they are located?

[think]

63. The hands that tie.

Very astute observation. So many facets to consider....

[markiv]

25. those people probably kept up on Lindsey Lohan too

they know what's really important

[mimi85]

70. Same here.

I have one close friend that is aware of No Country for Young Man Snowden.

The rest at the 4th of July BBQ were discussing the Lone Ranger movie and the Zimmerman case (although not even much about that). Most talked about who had Friday (today) off, the national hot dog eating contest, the Dodger phenom, Puig, the show "Under The Dome" and if there was enough beer left and should someone make a store run. Seriously, the average person doesn't know about this or just doesn't give a shit.

I think we're the ones who are frequently in the bubble.

[Thinkingabout]

10. The NSA scandal is not checking the background of employees and contractors well enough to realize

a "cause" was the reason the person wanted to be hired. Snowden was involved with parties who wanted to cause political gains for some. More caution should be exercised in hiring anyone to work in the NSA, as a result of political interest in the background of Snowden is a large portion of a scandal. The patsy, Snowden, stole from the NSA files he thought he could convince the world the US is spying on everyone and no other country or interest does the same. We must not be so shallow in our thinking to believe only the US is involved in spying. Snowden had a Code of Ethics in his relationship with the NSA and he did not follow that portion and reported operations of the NSA. The Code of Ethics informs employees and contractors their communications of the operations would result in espionage. Snowden wants to accuse the NSA of spying while doing the same himself.

[wtmusic]

14. There isn't enough caution in the world.

If you think this is going to keep people from revealing wrongdoing, you're out of your mind.

[Thinkingabout]

16. And your hero is a zero, he did not reveal anything which was not already known, caution from hiring

those who have donated to the likes of Ron Paul.

[wtmusic]

18. Most of the world disagrees with you

and I can only laugh at the lame attempt at character assassination.

"Donating to Ron Paul" is your absolute best?

[Thinkingabout]

39. You have Snowden as hero not me. Is he your very best?

[think]

26. How about Russ Tice and the other whistle blowers? Paulbots too I presume?

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Well Frank Drake was a hero

Since he leaked during the bush years, but now that he's taken the side of both Snowden and Manning he must be a paulbot too. Depends on what letter is behind the American of the WH occupant

[Th1onein]

89. I knew it would degenerate down to this level.

"And your hero is a zero...." Good grief.

If he didn't reveal anything which was not already known, then why did they divert a head of state's plane to search it? Why did they file charges? Why have they canceled his passport? Why did they serve a slew of extradition orders?'

Get real.

[Thinkingabout]

90. All your questions are easily answered, do a little bit of google to find the simple answers.

[Th1onein]

91. Ahhhh! THAT answers everything. Once again: Good grief. nt

[Thinkingabout]

92. I did not think youbreally wanted to know the reasons but thought the searches would help to

Clear the air for you.

[Th1onein]

93. I've done the searches. I haven't come up with the same answers, apparently, that you have.

Or we would be agreeing, instead of disagreeing.

[Thinkingabout]

94. Maybe you have to go to truthful factual sites, the information is not any better than the source,

garbage in, garbage out. Read the FISA Act, it has true factual information. Look into court hearings, there are many sources which does not contain blogs.

[Th1onein]

95. You have no idea where I'm going, so you can't judge. What I'm NOT going to do, though...

is waste my time with you anymore.

[Thinkingabout]

97. Stay in the dark, it might get lonely there, truth will set your free.

[Th1onein]

98. As I look around me, it's filled with others who are incensed about this matter, too.

I think that you are much more apt to be lonely than I am.

Good luck to you on my ignore list.

[Thinkingabout]

99. Good for you, you ignore the truth also so what is the difference.

[zbdent]

15. Apparently, this only had been done starting 1/21/2009 ...

[byeya]

17. The heads of government in Europe and South America will decide how big a deal it is.

It won't be decided here.

[sabrina 1]

20. The only people who seem to care about Snowden are the pro-surveillance state contingency. Cheney

eg, and Fleischer and a few right wingers, Palin of course, she can always be counted on to miss the point.

The rest of the world seems very focused on what this means in terms of the future.

I think what will happen eventually is that the International Community will hold hearings, and draw up some kind of International equivalent to the Geneva Conventions as they all realize that some standards have to be set to protect all of the people.

What these revelations have shown more than anything is that once someone, anyone, had the means to spy on the whole world, morality was not going to stop them.

Too bad WE didn't approach this serious problem this way to begin with, instead of becoming the REASON for the need to reign in these abuses.

New technology with such destructive potential, always has resulted in International Agreements. The Atomic Energy agreements eg. NOT that the US abides by International Treaties anymore, and that might cause distrust among nations. But I see no other solution than to have the entire International Community address the issue before it's too late.

[kentuck]

22. Just because we have new technology...

...does not mean we should surrender our Fourth Amendment. Just because they can steal your privacy does not make it right. They should be forced by law to protect your privacy.

[graham4anything]

32. Smith vs. Maryland 1979. reasonable. EOM.

[kentuck]

40. Unreasonable (EOM)

Spying on the world is not reasonable.

[Jackpine Radical]

23. How is the rest of the world gonna enforce their edicts

on the neighborhood bully? Remember that we have half the military arms in the world, and can always count on a few countries like the UK, which is as corrupt as we are, and Israel, to take our side, if only because they're in as deep as we are.

[byeya]

27. For starters, nations could order US military bases out of their countries

[sabrina 1]

28. It won't be easy, but I'm sure China isn't happy that we beat them to it, and Russia too so

I would imagine there will be some resistance that can't exactly be ignored. Trading can be used as a weapon, that is our weakest and most vulnerable area, MONEY. If some of the bigger and more powerful nations threaten us with some loss of money, it might be a deterrent for a while.

We'll see, but I don't think the world is just going to sit back and allow themselves to be completely taken over without some resistance.

[bvar22]

83. Latin America is showing the World how to do this.

They have started their OWN Trade/Mutual Support organizations,
and kicked OUT the IMF and US Corporations.


Qaddafi was aslo doing that in North Africa,
and using African Unity to successfully block the IMF and Global Banks from their predatory exploitation of the resources in North Africa,
until the Disaster Capitalists piggy-backed on the Arab Spring and used NATO and American Freedom Bombs to take him out.

” For all his dictatorial megalomania, Gaddafi is a committed pan-African - a fierce defender of African unity. Libya was not in debt to international bankers. It did not borrow cash from the International Monetary Fund for any "structural adjustment". It used oil money for social services - including the Great Man Made River project, and investment/aid to sub-Saharan countries. Its independent central bank was not manipulated by the Western financial system. All in all a very bad example for the developing world.”

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MD27Ak01.html

Unfortunately, our short sighted and ill conceived foreign policy is chasing these nations and their emerging markets straight into the welcoming arms of Russia, China, and Iran.
Stopping and searching Bolivian President Evo Morales's jet is only going to make things worse.



You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS,[/font]
not by their rhetoric, promises, or excuses.

[NCTraveler]

34. I am not really concerned about the European....

countries being angry at us for spying on them. Kind of like the pot calling the kettle situation. I do understand that they have to appear to be outraged.

What I don't like is our governments involvement with huge amounts of data storage on its own citizens with respect to the future possibility of a crime. Why not just come into my house and catalog everything, then promise me the file will stay closed unless a warrant for its information is granted.

Still trying to find out what Snowden released that wasn't already known. I do think it is good that he fired up the conversation again. When Bush signed the Patriot Act we were rightfully upset. We were much more quiet when Obama re-authorized it. This is a conversation that needs to continue no matter who is in office. Parts of the act that could be unconstitutional are so cloaked in secrecy that it would be almost impossible for a US citizen harmed by it to take it to court. It is a shame.

Maybe Snowden is a traitor. I think he is. Doesn't mean I don't want to know what information he has. Some of the info might wake up the citizens of the US to the true secrecy of our government with respect to its own people. I wish I never had to read another story about Assange. I still think wikileaks is a great organization doing great work.

Doesn't have to be black or white.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. In Germany they're calling it Der Shitstorm. - The Economist/UK

From the Economist. Hardly a wild-eyed left wing (EEK!) outlet.

http://www.economist.com/news/international/21580485-edward-snowdens-revelations-about-american-espionage-have-riled-europeans-so-has

Sense, sensibilities and spying

THE noun “Der Shitstorm” made a timely entrance to the official German lexicon this week. France is in a similar “avalanche d’emmerdements”. So, too, are countries as far afield as Japan, India and Turkey, which are also digesting revelations about the nature and extent of America’s electronic espionage on them.

That said, the material published by Mr Snowden suggests that the NSA’s procedures regarding Americans’ data are careful and bureaucratic: a retired foreign spook calls them “meticulous”. But that is little comfort to foreigners, especially in places that cherish citizens’ privacy and worry about excessive American power. A commentary in Germany’s liberal Süddeutsche Zeitung likened the revelations to the worst imaginable nuclear accident for legality and Atlanticism. Germany’s constitutional court bans state agencies from stockpiling for future intelligence requirements even the metadata of private communications. But that is what the NSA does, in colossal quantities and with in some cases, it seems, German official help.

As the Shitstorm mounts, Germany is sending a delegation to Washington (some think it should be the other way round). Politicians are struggling to explain what they knew and when they knew it. Federal prosecutors are opening inquiries. Sigmar Gabriel, an opposition leader, says they should interview Mr Snowden and if necessary offer him “witness protection” in Germany. The head of the domestic security agency says he knew nothing of the NSA’s schemes, but his service may have benefited from the results.

The fear in Europe is that, once so many data are in American hands, who is to say that they will not be misunderstood, leaked or misused? The information may help catch terrorists and gangsters today, but become part of American power politics (or commercial advantage) tomorrow. European policymakers took a lot of persuading before they agreed to share data on financial transactions and airline passenger lists with America. Now European Parliament members are threatening to suspend the deals. Another potential casualty is a proposed transatlantic free-trade deal, on which talks are due to start on July 8th (see article). France (never enthusiastic) and left-wing politicians in other countries want them halted, pending full clarification of the espionage programmes.

[HardTimes99]

36. Its defenders refuse to even consider it a 'scandal,' declaring every

component of it to be fully legal and on the up-and-up.

I, on the other hand, harken to John Dean's words from days long ago (1973): "There is a cancer on the Presidency."

Words of advice to President Obama: it's not the crime (scandal) that gets you, it's the cover-up.

[Thinkingabout]

42. Scandal? Where is the cover up by the NSA? They are continuing to do their job, the FBI is doing

their job, charges has been filed against Snowden, where do you get scandal in this?

[HardTimes99]

49. Four famous words: "Tip of the iceberg" - nt

[Thinkingabout]

51. Yada, Yada, the scandal is Snowden.

[HardTimes99]

54. That's funny, almost an exact word-for-word repeat of what Nixon and the

goons he still had around him said about John Dean (that is, before Alexander Butterfield broke news of the White House taping system).

Keep on whistling past that old graveyard.

[Thinkingabout]

61. How did they know about Snowden in 1974? Amazing.

[kelliekat44]

75. "Scandal" is what some hope for. The other "scandal-gates" have fizzled under tougher scruitny

so the Obama haters and their "progressive-Pauline" allies will pound this until they get what they want....impeachment of the President. The entire NSA issue is dead to me. I am spending my time on trying to help those hurt by the sequester. And there are many out there who are suffering (some low-wage civil servants as well) whose story will never get media attention it deserves. Nor will DU press it as much as Snowden who is what i deem a traitor to his own country and a coward to boot.

[MjolnirTime]

41. You want it to be so damned big. You'll be disappointed mightily.

[Hydra]

57. 50/50

I think the biggest damage is being done by the gov't reaction to being called on it.

Sad to say, if they just came out and said "Yeah, you're all being watched, don't put a toe out of line. No more constitution for you!" I bet the reaction would mostly be "meh."

But this whole coverup + trying to destroy the whistleblowers at any cost thing seems to be highlighting how out of touch and out of control they all are. As others have said, it may or may not spark a flame here, but it's already changing the landscape on other continents.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

60. This is about like finding out for the first time what "insider trading" is....

.....and laughing because you figured that's how the game is played.

[carolinayellowdog]

65. whatever it is must be equally damaging to both parties

because both seem oddly restrained of late

[sibelian]

67. It can only be measured in terms of consequences.

The idea that data sharing agreements could be affected and the closure of embassies suggests to me that it is Quite Large.

[Ford_Prefect]

73. It was said of Watergate that the measure of how big it was

could be determined by how much denial there was and by whom it was made. I suspect the same applies in kind to the issues with NSA and secret legal doctrines that underlie its activities.

We are supposed to be a nation of laws applied fairly to all. That's the Constitution and Bill of Rights in one. If some of the laws applied are so secret that they cannot be examined or questioned or debated by citizens or Congress one has to question if they are really lawful at all, rather than legalistic excuses for institutional behavior no one would tolerate.

The degree to which the NSA and their defenders have asserted there is nothing to worry about is undercut by each new revelation that we have not been honestly informed of what has been done in our name, to our citizens, and by the way with a considerable amount of our taxes.

We may never know the full size of the "Iceberg" but we can be sure the shadow it would cast in daylight is much larger than we presently can see. Consider for a moment just how many people are currently working in one part or another of the "Shadow" world. Consider for a moment the effect a factory or town the same size and the side effects such an entity would have on the nearby environment or economy. Then try to imagine the effect amplified with the force of more than 36 billion dollars.

I think there is much to examine and to be answered for here. It is not merely a scandal. It could be a disaster on the scale of Katrina or Sandy. If there is a "scandal" it is that so much money is being spent with no way to determine if we are receiving anything of value for the money.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

82. I think Director Panetta of the DoD being a traitor matters more...

He was the FORTH CIA director hired by George W. Bush Jr. who went on to become director of the Department of Defense (DoD). Why did "W" feel the need to fire 3 CIA directors? Was he seeking complete dictator-like control over the entire U.S. Intelligence community? Through people like Panetta, does he or his buddies, like Dick Cheney still have too much influence over the U.S. military and agencies, like DHS, the CIA and the NSA, which are all under direct command of the DoD?

[kentuck]

85. Was Panetta hired by Dubya??

I didn't know that.

[Columbus Free Press]

88. Yes. Tip of the Iceberg

With the Data the Columbus Free Press already has, plus Snowden's revelations, plus other information in the public domain, there will be more stories at least from us.

If the Guardian.UK were to not release another thing, and to developments in the ongoing saga occour, we could easily do another 100 stories by years end on this issue.

Of course more data will come to light, and there will be ore developments.

Enjoy