It's a dark day in our nation when high-level authorities use every method to silence dissent

[Catherina]

"He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

It's a dark day in our nation when high-level authorities will seek to use every method to silence dissent. But something is happening, and people are not going to be silenced. The truth must be told, and I say that those who are seeking to make it appear that anyone who opposes ... is a fool or a traitor or an enemy... is a person that has taken a stand against the best in our tradition.

"the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in a period of moral crisis, maintain their neutrality

" When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, militarism & economic exploitation are incapable of being conquered.... don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his divine, messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world "

- Martin Luther King.

Martin Luther King. You know the great hero they whitewashed and distort to use as a political prop. Oh what Martin would say today!

[Pholus]

1. The American way would be to sue. Course when it was tried, there was a small problem

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/10/why_you_cant_sue_the_government_for_spying_on_you/

Who needs "tort reform" when this is the law of the land...

[Pretzel_Warrior]

4. are you serious? lol.

[kelliekat44]

50. I'm dissenting and no one is stopping me. What do you mean?

[Pholus]

65. You cannot sing to a stone. nt

[Orrex]

120. You can if you're a rock singer.

[Pholus]

121. Alright, I feel the burn.... ;)

But not quite as good as the Monty Python reference here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3177848

[awoke_in_2003]

124. DUzy. nt

[JDPriestly]

85. In addition to depriving you of your rights to a free press, free speech, free trial, etc.,

they collect this information in order to conduct psy-ops on you, to manipulate you. All your "likes" and "dislikes" are theirs. All the names of your friends are theirs. All the news media you read, the names of the books you read, all of it can be categorized, analyzed and mapped out so that you are a bunch of numbers and a chart on the wall, and then your chart can be matched to other charts, and you can be controlled through propaganda.

How do you like them donuts?

[magellan]

110. I'm sure they like them donuts just fine because they have nothing to hide

At least, not until a Rethug gets back into the WH. Then watch the excuses fly for being okay with it now but not then.

[SylviaD]

139. Exactly! 100% bang on. How can some here be so intellectually dishonest? This is DU!!! n/t

[magellan]

142. I don't know

But I understand it. I ran a fan club once, and the behavior is eerily similar to that of a celebrity's most fervent fans. It's pitiable, but it's human nature.

Welcome!

[Th1onein]

2. The same dark forces that existed in his day have grown in our time.

They are behemoths now. But we must still fight for our freedoms. Not in Iraq, or Afghanistan, but right here, in America.

[tomp]

161. the systematic oppression of protest by the government...

...has been a growing trend for over 150 years. anything that stands in the way of maximizing profits is brutally suppressed either directly by the government (including the courts) or by its informal agents.

[Zen Democrat]

183. This is a machine from WWII that has had increasing control over time.

All this hand-wringing over Obama. The presidents are considered transients. Please spare me the outrage because it's naive.

[quinnox]

3. K&R, if only we had leaders like King nowadays

I'm afraid they are sorely needed. America has lost its way, and instead, we get one mediocrity after another.

[Th1onein]

7. Leaders are not born. They step forth when they are needed.

I have never agreed with those who think that we need some savior to lead us out of darkness. Each of us must be the light out of darkness.

[quinnox]

12. Men have to be led, that is reality

And the leaders who do that have been very wanting lately in this country. IMHO.

I'm not saying we need a savior, but a great president surely couldn't hurt at this point.

[Hydra]

30. We're not allowed to have a great president

We're only allowed Corp safe approved people to vote for.

If we have a great leader in the future, they're going to have to come from outside the system and probably from the bottom. We're not getting any help from the top, despite what some have suggested.

[bvar22]

45. We HAD a chance.

Opportunities like this are rare.
They come only once a generation.
This one was thrown away on "Centrist" bi-partisan appeasement.


[font size=5]Obama's Army, Jan. 21, 2009[/font]

[font size=5]"Oh, What could have been."[/font]

[ChairmanAgnostic]

46. I wonder if he senses or regrets what he has tossed away.

[nineteen50]

55. It is amazing how fast they have walked away in face of

his action. I agree what a waste, but those same need to gather and force his hand to do as we believed he would. You can use spying, secrecy and controlling the messages and news or you can walk in front of the people. Our leaders think we will never show up so they use the first and must sell out to those who own the apparatus to do so.

[siligut]

63. ". . . must sell out to those who own the apparatus to do so."

I am aghast at how spying, secrecy and controlling the messages can affect an individual's life. This is what concerns me the most regarding the NSA's program. I think of the movie, The Adjustment Bureau, without the magic, only the approved people will succeed.

[bushisanidiot]

97. And THAT is the problem. "Centrist" is now a bad word on both the far left

and the entire right.

President Obama was elected to lead the entire nation, not just the left.
All presidents should be centrists. AWOL Bush was not. McCain wouldn't have been.
And the asshole Mitt Romney surely would not have governed from the center.

I stand with President Obama.

[bvar22]

104. No one can LEAD from The Center.

Thank gawd FDR & LBJ didn't settle for what was In-the-Middle.
If LBJ had settled,
Obama wouldn't be president today.


"In politics the middle way is none at all."
-President John Adams


[font color=firebrick size=4][center]"The only thing in the Middle of the Road
are Yellow Stripes and Dead Armadillos."--Jim Hightower
[center][/center][/font]

[Blanks]

172. The composition of congress was much different under both.

...and the mood of the nation too. There are a lot of right-wingers who despise the policies of FDR, and based on the make-up of the house, I'd say they are a force to take serious (particularly with the gerrymandering).

I agree that Obama could be more to the left, but it isn't realistic to expect him to govern as far to the left as FDR who had a democratic controlled congress for his entire time in office.

At that time the democrats were much more successful at blaming the republicans for the Great Depression, and were able to stay in power as a result of it.

The recent meltdown was orchestrated such that a significant portion of the country blames it on Obama.

Sure, he could do some things different, even better, but he doesn't have the same advantages that FDR and LBJ did.

A president with control of only one half of congress can't be expected to govern as though they control both halves. It just isn't realistic.

[bvar22]

181. Excuses, excuses....always with the excuses.

"Strong and successful presidents (meaning those who get what they want - whether that happens to be good for the country or not) do not accept "the best deal on the table". They take out their carpentry tools and the build the goddam piece of furniture themselves. Strong and successful presidents do not get dictated to by the political environment. They reshape the environment into one that is conducive to their political aspirations."

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/07/17

[font size=3]"A genuine leader is not a searcher for consensus but a molder of consensus."[/font]
-Rev Martin Luther King Jr.




You will remember them by their [font size=3]WORKS,[/font]
not by their excuses.

[Blanks]

186. Give me an example of a president...

Who has successfully forwarded their agenda despite having the opposition party in the majority in congress.

It hasn't, doesn't and won't happen because it isn't realistic.

The makeup of congress is representative of the attitude of Americans. Currently the house is controlled by the opposition party.

Quoting a phrase from MLK doesn't make it a fact. I believe that he believed it and I believe that you believe it. The evidence on the other hand; points to a different outcome.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Presidents_and_control_of_Congress

[Bonhomme Richard]

132. The other problem is that the definition of word centrist has shifted...

To the far right. All that is left beyond that are the crazies or fascist.

[zeeland]

166. if you "stand with Obama"

you might want to consider changing your screen name as Obama would not agree with you.

[truebluegreen]

167. Out of curiosity, define "far left"

and name some current individuals/leaders who embody it. Thanks.

[Hekate]

155. People fucking sat back and let him do all the work, then bitched at the results

People fucking stayed home in 2010 either because they didn't know or didn't care or just wanted to show him who's boss. And then they bitched about those results too.

OH, WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN.

The slogan was "Yes, WE can," not "Yes, Obama can do it all by his lonesome."

For of all sad words of tongue and pen,
The saddest are these,
"It might have been."
John Greenleaf Whittier

[Hekate]

156. For of all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these, It might have been. That's on US.

People fucking sat back and let Obama do all the work, then bitched at the results

People fucking stayed home in 2010 either because they didn't know or didn't care or just wanted to show him who's boss. And then they bitched about those results too.

OH, WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN.

The slogan was "Yes, WE can," not "Yes, Obama can do it all by his lonesome."

For of all sad words of tongue and pen,
The saddest are these,
"It might have been."
John Greenleaf Whittier

[bvar22]

184. Harry Truman, predicting 2010 and explaining why:

[font size=3]
"I've seen it happen time after time. When the Democratic candidate allows himself to be put on the defensive and starts apologizing for the New Deal and the Fair Deal, and says he really doesn't believe in them, he is sure to lose. The people don't want a phony Democrat. If it's a choice between a genuine Republican, and a Republican in Democratic clothing, the people will choose the genuine article, every time; that is, they will take a Republican before they will a phony Democrat, and I don't want any phony Democratic candidates in this campaign."
---President Harry Truman

QED:2010[/font]


[font size=3]Leadership! "The Buck Stops HERE!" NO Excuses![/font]

It is the JOB of LEADERSHIP to motivate the troops,
and give them a reason to fight.
When the troops are NOT motivated,
it is NEVER their fault,
though poor leadership will always attempt to blame them.


No, when the troops are NOT motivated,
it is ALWAYS the fault of Leadership,
and when Leadership is strong enough to accept that responsibility,
the problem can be solved.
When weak leadership blames the troops,
it only ensures more failure.

[SunSeeker]

158. [phone]!

[truebluegreen]

168. Certainly the saddest words.

But don't try to lay this off on voters being lazy, letting President Obama do all the work, and staying home in 2010. Ask yourself why they stayed home.

I'll tell you why: because he had the opportunity to change things, and yet kept the same old people, the same old policies... If the people had something to point to, even something that he tried to do and failed, if it would have been a major change, something to fight for, like REAL universal health care, instead of lame health-insurance-reform-that-will-go-into-effect-some-years-from-now, or really changing foreign policy, or a Justice Dept. that cared about the banksters...ugh.

Of course President Obama couldn't do it alone, nor could any President. The point is he didn't even seem to try. (Larry Summers and Tim Geithner? puhleeeze.)

[bushisanidiot]

205. +1

my thoughts EXACTLY!

[Th1onein]

149. I don't think a president is going to do it. They are bought and paid for.

We're going to have to look to ourselves. Amongst ourselves.

[Skidmore]

173. If by "they" you mean our esteemed legislators,

then I will say that is one of the more astute observations I have seen on this board in a while. No president can do this alone now and not with the Congress he has been given. 2014 is an important election year.

[Th1onein]

174. ALL of them, from the president on down. They've all got to be replaced.

I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but it is true.

[zeeland]

162. +1

[Pholus]

8. Isn't the actual point to make sure we don't?

Hard to rise up when you can be blackmailed instantly the moment someone is annoyed by you.

Makes the then-Senator Obama's abrupt about face on the "Patriot" Act somewhat suspicious.

[awoke_in_2003]

125. Leaders get shot...

they got that message through loud and clear in 63 and 68.

[ProSense]

5. "I submit that an individual who breaks a law...

MLK:

I hope you are able to see the distinction I am trying to point out. In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law, as would the rabid segregationist. That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.

http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

What Kind Of Coward Is Edward Snowden?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023169023

[HooptieWagon]

9. Rosa Parks broke the "law".

Only authoritarians are critical of breaking unconstitutional laws.

[ProSense]

21. Rosa Parks fled to Hong Kong? n/t

[dawg]

23. Maybe she would have ...

if she had reason to believe she might get the Bradley Manning treatment.

[ProSense]

27. Yeah,

"if she had reason to believe she might get the Bradley Manning treatment."

...because civil rights activists were treated with respect and invited over for tea?

[dawg]

36. She was a very brave woman.

She had to spend a night in jail, and then faced trials and appeals and all sorts of difficulties in her personal life afterwards.

The two situations are completely different. For Rosa Parks, the arrest and the trial were the point of the thing. She disobeyed an unjust law in order to shame them into changing it. She knew that convicting her would be a huge embarrassment for Alabama and the United States. Getting the law overturned was the point.

For Snowden, releasing the information was the point. In order to do that, he felt he needed to be outside of prison, not in it. And after the way Bradley Manning was treated, who could blame him for fleeing the country?

Perhaps he isn't as brave as Rosa Parks. Perhaps he isn't a nice guy at all.

But forgive me if I would rather know what my government is doing that to *not* know what my government is doing.

[zeemike]

84. Compared to today?...yes.

In those days no one believed it was moral to torture people...that is different now...there are lots of them that do think it is OK...
The civil rights war was won because the majority of people still had some moral compass left, and had not been brainwashed into accepting the immorality of it as necessary to keep us safe.
Rosa Parks today would be called a whiner and they would talk about how she had boxes in her garage and was not friendly to her neighbors.

[ProSense]

87. Ever heard of

"Compared to today?...yes. In those days no one believed it was moral to torture people...that is different now...there are lots of them that do think it is OK... "

...John Lewis? How about MLK?

Snowden is a coward.

[zeemike]

93. If he was a coward.

He would have kept his mouth shut and collected that fat paycheck.
Cowards go along to get along...and never question those in authority.

[bvar22]

185. X10000

[font size=3]
"Cowards go along to get along...and never question those in authority.
He would have kept his mouth shut and collected that fat paycheck." [/font]
---zeemike, Post #93

[truedelphi]

195. + anyone who cares about our inalienable rights.

[NoMoreWarNow]

102. let's not forget that MLK Jr was assassinated, very likely by a FBI-run conspiracy

and back in those days, we didn't see the pattern so clearly of what the PTB did to those who spoke out.

[sigmasix]

111. this x 100,000,000 NT

[Number23]

134. OH MY GOD

JUST FUCKING OH MY GOD

[totodeinhere]

170. She wasn't thrown into solitary confinement for months on end and the UN did not

report that she was tortured. Rosa Parks did not face such treatment but Edward Snowmen surely would if he returned.

[OnyxCollie]

38. Or worse, the Anwar Al-Awlaki treatment.

[cheapdate]

106. Anwar Al Awlaki was an implacable enemy of the United States.

His sole purpose was to persuade others to take up arms and kill American soldiers. He was actually pretty good at his job. I'm sure he was absolutely convinced of the rightness of his cause and approached his job with passion and commitment. He's dead now.

[OnyxCollie]

137. Sounds like it would have been a slam-dunk trial.

Instead, the US outsourced it judicial system to Yemen.

[cheapdate]

145. I don't how you can say the United States outsourced his killing.

Yemen didn't kill him, the United States did. He was merely in Yemen when the US killed him.

[OnyxCollie]

147. He was tried in absentia in Yemen.

Yemen sentences Awlaki in absentia
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2011/01/2011117133558339969.html

Yemen has sentenced in absentia Anwar al-Awlaki, the US-born Muslim religious leader, to 10 years in jail in connection with the killing of a French engineer.

A court in Sanaa, the Yemeni capital, on Monday sentenced to death another man convicted of the killing, but al-Awlaki, who is wanted dead or alive by the US, is accused of motivating the crime.

Please provide a link to his trial in the US.

[cheapdate]

150. The order to kill Awlaki was given almost a year

before his trial in absentia started in Yemen. The Yemeni trial was unrelated to the US killing of Awlaki.

The government argued that killing Awlaki without a trial was justified based on his ongoing role in planning and supporting the killing of Americans.

[OnyxCollie]

153. Due process is optional now.

[cheapdate]

179. The use of lethal force to stop a crime in progress is not an abrogation of due process.

[OnyxCollie]

180. What crime in progress was being committed?

And what was Abdulrahman Al-Awlaki doing?

[cheapdate]

188. According to the government:

<< ....

* Awlaki specifically directed Umar Faruq Abdulmutallab in December 2009 to detonate the “underwear” bomb on board a Christmas Day Northwest Airlines flight to Detroit. The government said that Awlaki told Abdulmutallab to detonate the bomb while over U.S. airspace so as to maximize casualties.

* In October 2010, AQAP attempted to explode two U.S. cargo planes by detonating explosives hidden in ink cartridges mailed to synagogues in Chicago. The U.S. government said that Awlaki directly supervised this failed terrorist plot.

* In 2010, Awlaki communicated with Rajib Karim, then a British airlines worker, seeking a way to get a bomb aboard a plane at Heathrow Airport. Karim was convicted in March 2011 in a British court on terrorism charges, and sentenced to 30 years in prison. >>

Read More: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/09/the-us-case-against-awlaki/

Those are pretty serious crimes. I understand that he wasn't arrested, charged, tried in a US court and convicted. But the evidence that he actually was involved in many past crimes and was, in fact, in the process of actually preparing to commit other serious crimes involving much loss of life, was really overwhelming.

Awlaki publicly took great pride in the role he'd played in convincing others to kill Americans. And a number of captured enemy fighters in turn gave much credit to Awlaki for giving them the courage to take up arms against the evil Americans. Awlaki's internet recruiting websites, his videos and other recruiting materials were unquestionably effective tools in his fight against America.

[OnyxCollie]

196. None of those are "crimes in progress."

Nothing immediate.

It's hard to believe that it was not "feasible" to apprehend Al-Awlaki since the government knew exactly where he was.

You didn't answer my question as to why his 16 year old son was killed, either.

[cheapdate]

201. The president and his advisers reached a different conclusion,

that Awlaki's ongoing activities, for example his attempt to get explosives on board an airplane at Heathrow Airport, were serious enough to warrant lethal force.

There were very real and serious difficulties with apprehending Awlaki in a remote area in Yemen. It's not as easy as sending a squad car out to his cave.

Awlaki's 16 year old son was killed due to his proximity to other, targeted persons.

[OnyxCollie]

202. I see.

"The President and his advisors" are judge, jury, and executioner.

That's the kind of thing DU used to worry about, back when George Bush was President...

[cheapdate]

203. That would appear to be the case,

although the actual execution was carried out by the drone operator and not by the president, so the metaphor is something of a stretch.

Most people agree that the government has a legitimate responsibility to try to prevent terrorist attacks and to protect military and diplomatic personnel in the field. Apart from al Awlaki, no other American citizens have been specifically targeted for killing. There was substantial evidence that Al Awlaki was responsible for past crimes and was in the process of planning and organizing future crimes. He was convicted in absentia of major crimes in courts in Yemen and in the United Kingdom. Inserting a special operations team into Yemen to try to capture or kill Awlaki would have entailed major risks and difficulties of its own, and the damage and risk of civilian casualties is easily greater with either a cruise missile strike or with conventional bombs dropped by manned aircraft.

I'm on the fence over the killing of al Awlaki. He was unquestionably a very dangerous person.

[Life Long Dem]

66. "Bradley Manning treatment"

Manning and his supporters claim that he was held in inhumane conditions in Quantico, but his lawyer, David Coombs, said he was not tortured or mistreated.

https://piperbayard.wordpress.com/2011/12/18/bradley-manning-the-facts-amidst-the-fury/

While Manning was not tortured, Miklaszewski’s sources say, he was improperly put on suicide watch for two days last week.

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2011/01/27/dod-press-office-scrambling/

If Manning was tortured with solitary confinement, then there are thousands of inmates in the US right now being tortured. About 80,000 in fact.

There are 80,000 Americans currently held in solitary confinement.

http://www.askmen.com/entertainment/special_feature_400/483_solitary-confinement-5-things-you-didnt-know.html

[dawg]

70. Standing up for harsh treatment of a prisoner and solitary confinement.

That is so sad. But, by all means, line up some more links to "prove" your point.

I especially liked the one from askmen.com. See if you can find me one from Maxim or Men's Health.

[Life Long Dem]

71. Solitary confinement may be harsh treatment but not "torture"

[dawg]

72. That's why, in my post that you responded to, I referred to ...

"the Bradley Manning treatment".

You are the one who brought up torture.

Gee, I wonder what made your mind go there?

[Life Long Dem]

75. Why even bring up "the Bradley Manning treatment" at all.

If you were not going there (torture).

[dawg]

78. Because, knowing how he has been treated, I can't blame Snowden for not ...

wanting to go through that. It would be misery for him and would do nothing to help his cause. That's all.

Whether or not Manning's treatment could be characterized as torture is another debate altogether - one that I chose my words carefully in order to avoid.

[Life Long Dem]

79. Thing is

Manning was treated like anyone else. As harsh as it sounds that is how everyone is treated when locked up.

[dawg]

80. I suspect Mr. Manning has gotten some "special" treatment, but ...

you are right that the conditions in our prisons are terrible. But that is an issue for another day.

[magellan]

129. Really? It's normal in this country to hold an uncharged person in solitary for months on end?

You should have added the qualifier: only since Bush**.

[brett_jv]

105. I disagree ... IMO it is absolutely torture the way it's implemented in our SuperMax prisons ...

Many, many previously healthy people have been driven utterly and irrevocably insane by being held in solitary for extended periods. Longer-term, it's one of the cruelest punishments you could possibly inflict on a human being.

If you read about some of the cases of what's happened to people kept in solitary in a supermax prison for years on end ... the stories will absolutely make you weep. Esp. when it's done to someone who was in prison for something like drug possession, and did nothing more 'wrong' (to wind up in solitary) than fighting back when someone was trying to prison-rape them. And all it takes is the word of the Warden, not a Judge, to make the decision to throw inmates into that hell.

The system of solitary confinement like we have in the SuperMax prisons is 100% cruel and unusual punishment, and it IS torture when done on a longer-term basis.

The effects of this treatment have been formally studied very little as well, which means we really don't KNOW how badly it's damaging people ... but I can almost guarantee it 'rehabilitates' very few people.

[truedelphi]

118. And you know this How?

You would probably last three days in solitary confinement. Maybe less.

[Life Long Dem]

127. Solitary confinement is 23 hours a day.

PFC Manning is held in his cell for approximately 23 hours a day.

The guards are required to check on PFC Manning every five minutes by asking him if he is okay. PFC Manning is required to respond in some affirmative manner. At night, if the guards cannot see PFC Manning clearly, because he has a blanket over his head or is curled up towards the wall, they will wake him in order to ensure he is okay.

Each night, during his correspondence time, he is allowed to take a 15 to 20 minute shower.



http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.info/2010/12/typical-day-for-pfc-bradley-manning.html

[totodeinhere]

171. Bradley Manning's treatment was cruel and inhuman, UN torture chief rules

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un

Juan Mendez has completed a 14-month investigation into the treatment of Manning since the soldier's arrest at a US military base in May 2010. He concludes that the US military was at least culpable of cruel and inhumane treatment in keeping Manning locked up alone for 23 hours a day over an 11-month period in conditions that he also found might have constituted torture.

[truedelphi]

117. Totally agree with you. For Snowden to do this after

Noticing what happened to Bradley Manning puts him in hero category for me.

Sorry your remarks got slimed.

[graham4anything]

52. +1

[nineteen50]

60. When the laws are unjust, secret and violate our guaranteed

bill of rights and we have no habeas corpus and no open west to lay low until senses grow perhaps a new way must be found.

[Vattel]

82. I think I will have to take Malcolm X's side on this one.

Certainly if a law requires me to do injustice, I should be able to break it and also avoid punishment for breaking it if I can. Fuck anyone who tries to punish me for not acting unjustly.

[JDPriestly]

115. A smart one.

Apparently, killing him will not kill his message or prevent him from releasing his information. It may be that he is planning to let computers spread his message for him.

Before Snowden came forth, there were several whistleblowers who told us what Snowden has shown us. But Snowden is providing proof of their allegations.

How can anyone defend this program?

It seems to me that the ultimate goal in this program is not to uncover crime or terrorism but rather to assemble a database that allows the people controlling the database to use psy-ops and propaganda very effectively on the public.

Those of us who are not part of the elite that gets to run the program should be wary of becoming the pawns of the few at the top who do.

If someone wanted to stage a coup in the US, to take over the country, this massive surveillance would be the first, maybe even the next to final step. When someone has all your computer and phone data plus your credit report, your bank statements, everything, they can easily find something that embarrasses you (if you are over 25 for sure). Everyone makes mistakes. And that is how people can be blackmailed and controlled.

It is simply naive to dismiss Snowden as a criminal. He is just the tip of a big iceberg that all the attention to Snowden seeks to hide.

In his first interview with Greenwald, Snowden predicted that he might be arrested, renditioned, tortured, etc. It looks like the US very much wants to prove him right.

[totodeinhere]

169. It doesn't matter if he is a coward or not. It is not about him. What he did raised

awareness of the surveillance state and government secrecy. Then as an outgrowth of this story we are again reminded of how our government can bully smaller countries and our lack of respect for the emerging socialist democracies of Latin America. Coward or not, it was a service to our country to get these issues out in the open.

[brooklynite]

6. Sorry, but you're making no sense...

Complain all you want about intelligence gathering, but you'll need to explain how dissent is being silenced (much less through "every method&quot considering that you're here on a public website dissenting.

[Th1onein]

10. Oh come now.......

You do not think that spying on, storing, and analyzing every word out of our mouths doesn't stifle dissent?

And jailing the whistleblower who brought this mangling of the Fourth Amendment into the light isn't being hunted down like an animal? Manning wasn't a warning to others to keep their mouths shut about government wrongdoing or you will be tortured?

Come now. Let us at least be honest with each other.

[HooptieWagon]

14. Authoritarians will defend unconstitutional laws until the bitter end.

They crave big brother watching over them. I doubt that personality can be reasoned with.

[LondonReign2]

57. Just my opinion, but I don't think the majority of them are authoritarians

I think it's purely a Cult of Personality. They'll reverse their opinion--AGAIN-- after 2016.

ProSense (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-15-06 08:53 AM
Original message
Edited on Wed Feb-15-06 08:53 AM by ProSense

Bush is spying on Americans: opponents and activist groups. The law can't
be changed to make that legal. The Republicans are trying to pull a fast one with this "law change" tactic by framing the illegal spying as warrantless spying on terrorists; therefore, the law is being changed to give Bush the authority to spy on terrorist. Spying on Americans was, is and will still be illegal. Bush committed crimeS by illegal spying on Americans and breaking existing FISA laws.

I'm sure all criminals would love to have a law passed that retroactively absolves them of their crimes.

[rusty fender]

62. Oops!

(I guess she didn't know that her posts are archived)

[HooptieWagon]

64. Blindly following a leader is an aspect of authoritarianism.

"Good Germans" might have been aghast if the Kaiser did what Hitler did. But Hitler was "their guy", and they obidiently followed him in to fascism.

[treestar]

99. Just the fact that you interpret things that way

proves you are the one who can't be reasoned with.

Is that what you call every government lawyer who ever defended any search and seizure or use of incriminating statement in every court in the land every day?

Or the judges who may have, on some cases, decided that the particular search or use of statement did not violate the 4th or 5th Amendment?

You seem to think all of society should agree with you on every issue.

[HooptieWagon]

109. If Obama wants to defend NSA surveillence in open court, bring it on.

He won't, because it won't withstand scrutiny under sunlight.
Why is he so unhinged over a 29 yo HS dropout? Because what Snowden found out is a threat to Obama's presidency and the MIC gravy train.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

177. He doesn't need to...

...the Courts already ruled on this ages ago.

Again, some nutcase with no legal training typing "It's UNCONSTITUTIONAL" on a website does not, in fact, make a law unconstitutional. This is true whether that nutcase is a teabagger, or a loopy hyper-leftist accusing everyone who disagrees with them, including President Obama, of being an Authoritarian, Brownshirt, Good-German, NAZI.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[frazzled]

53. No content is stored

So, no, "they" are not "analyzing every word out of our mouths." The only thing that is stored is the metadata: the "tos" and "froms," and that with no names, just numbers.

What dissent has been stifled?

[xtraxritical]

73. It's all stored, have you not seen the $12B facility in Utah for storage?

[tavalon]

143. Pretty word, metadata

Almost makes it seem like they aren't mining every bit of data, doesn't it? Metadate = Data Mining.

[HardTimes99]

13. Methinks you need to re-read the MLK, Jr. quote again - nt

[CakeGrrl]

15. Right??

A real authoritarian administration would shut down "underground" sites, wouldn't they? Dissent is alive and well, yes?

[dawg]

29. Much better to keep the sites up so as to allow people to vent, impotently, on the internet.

Let them whine. The secret laws are all in place (as interpreted by the secret courts), so what does it matter if "emoprogs" like me complain?

We emoprogs are useful to the government, after all. Our shrill cries of disgust provide the illusion that we are still a fully functioning democracy.

[RC]

59. Correct. When we expend our wrath on our keyboards, we are much less likely to do anything

constructive in the real world to actually remedy the situation "They" have set us in.
We even have people here whose job it is to deny the obvious so those of us that are realizing what is happening, have something to rally against right here. A closed loop, so to speak. We don't even have to go anywhere.
Few outside DU are effected or care. Most people do not even know about DU in the first place. They let us rant right here, a type of echo chamber, and that helps keep the apparent status quo as they want it.

[center][/center]

[HardTimes99]

103. Chomsky, as usual, is instructive:

The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate with that spectrum.

~The Common Good

[dawg]

26. Reporters are having a hard time communicating with anonymous sources ...

They know their call data is being logged, and that it would be a simple matter to connect them to the reporter.

[chimpymustgo]

42. Two very important posts, dawg. Chilling.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

28. You need an explanation on how dissent is being silenced? You don't know?

[chervilant]

35. They "know,"

they simply choose not to "see." Cognitive dissonance is itself a powerful deterrent.

As MLK said, "There comes a time when silence is betrayal."

[AnotherMcIntosh]

88. They are probably the same ones who say that Bush kept us safe from attack.

How willfully blind do they have to be to not remember 9/11?

How willfully blind do they have to be to not see the organized police brutality against peaceful protesters?

[chervilant]

92. You might be interested in

Richard Hofstadter's "The Paranoid Style in American Politics." Hofstadter helped me develop a better understanding of the unfortunates who embrace and embody rigid, authoritarian, conservative mindsets. Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Pat Buchanan, John Boehner and their ilk--truly unfortunate individuals.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

94. Thanks. I'm willing to bet at least some of those exploiting the unfortunates have read it as well.

[chervilant]

176. I think it's important to note

that the economic exploitation about which MLK spoke so eloquently has become the radical income inequity that has motivated #Occupy, as well as a growing awareness among the Hoi Polloi in general that a minuscule number of our species (ironically) considers themselves our paternal guides in all matters, economic and otherwise. Witness Bill Gates presuming that his obscene wealth has rendered him an expert on education. In short, "they" see "us" as too "slow" and "uneducated" (read "stupid&quot to make "the really important decisions."

[xtraxritical]

74. These people have not seen Occupiers get pepper sprayed and beaten?

[Demit]

40. So in other words, because things are okay now, thus they ever shall be?

I don't see why this is put forth as a strong argument. Great changes don't happen all at once; they happen incrementally. The conservative movement is very patient, very much into the long view. For example, the assault on Roe v Wade: they knew not to attack it directly, they are following a course of chipping away at it.

Those who wish for an obedient, compliant populace will get what they want by increments, and getting people to self-censor is an important step. Surely you understand the phenomenon.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

41. Makes no sense to those who have no sense

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Snowden, like MLK and others, committed acts of civil disobedience.

Laws were broken. People were were pursued and tried if caught.

[CakeGrrl]

17. MLK didn't run from the challenge. He faced intimidators head-on.

Snowden hides behind Wikileaks PR.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. How about Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman, and all the others who ran away?

[HardTimes99]

24. I get your point, but let us not also forget Nat Turner (who stayed and

led a slave insurrection) and John Brown (who did not retreat but actually attacked).

Resistance to evil can take numerous forms.

[CakeGrrl]

43. You're seriously comparing running from the active abuses of slavery

to Snowden's CHOICE to steal information and his CHOICE to avoid the KNOWN consequences of doing so?

Wow. What a slap in the face to people wanting to live free of TRUE oppression, to compare them to someone who created the situation in which he finds himself.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

68. The slaves broke the law by stealing property and ran away.

Don't you think that the slaves chose to break the law and didn't know the consequences? You say that Snowden broke the law and ran away to avoid the consequences. The law in both cases is wrong and his was an act of civil disobedience.

[CakeGrrl]

81. The law Snowden broke was NOT wrong. He violated employer confidentiality.

Snowden was not a slave being beaten, raped and held against their will in a subset of the union that followed the practice.

He voluntarily took a job with INTENT to steal from it, and he did so. That is a broken law in and of itself.

This isn't even about NSA surveillance.

This is about stealing data from your employer.

This is about engaging in, then breaking, a confidentiality agreement that MANY employees sign as a condition of being employed.

And he violated it. And he's running from the consequences of breaking that agreement.

Slaves were NOT employees.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

83. If that's all. They should fire him and hire an obedient worker bee.

By LAW, the slaves were property. Running away was theft of the owners property. Harriet Tubman and others helped steal property by helping slaves escape.

[CakeGrrl]

95. No that wasn't all. Snowden upped it by sharing stolen information with China and Russia.

Unlike the Northern states welcoming slaves who fled actual oppression, Snowden's voluntary theft and double-dealing to other nations has made him persona non grata in his preferred destinations.

Snowden didn't break laws that prevented his existence as a free human being. He broke laws he just didn't care to abide.

We can simply agree to disagree. Having the mere potential of data surveillance loom will never rise to the level of physical enslavement for me.

For all the sudden wailing about living in a putative 'police state', people around this forum are pretty darned free to rail at the power structure without fear of retribution.

Ask bloggers in Mexico who are literally lynched for speaking out online about drug cartels.

I could cite a number of other examples, but there are degrees of oppression and intimidation. The outrage on this board isn't driven by what has been done, but what people believe COULD be done based on one person's suggestion of the possibility.

[nashville_brook]

90. wow. just wow.

[Number23]

135. This embarassingly moronic thread is helping folks TRULY show their ignorance as well as their asses

Last edited Fri Jul 5, 2013, 09:54 PM - Edit history (1)

THIS is what DU is now. A place where people say that Bradley Manning is being treated worse than Civil Rights activists of the 50s and 60's, many of whom got their asses beat and were KILLED by law enforcement, you know the folks who were actually supposed to be PROTECTING them, before they even got to a damn trial.

I cannot abide this level of unhinged stupidity.

[JustAnotherGen]

165. And folks

In human bondage had it the exact same as Snowden. *sigh*. There they go again - taking over the black American experience when it suits the cause and narrative. Haven't they heard? It's a post racial society. Tsk tsk. He has no more in common with Harriet Tubman than I do that "great" authoritarian Bull Connor.

[Number23]

191. THANK YOU.

Seriously.

So you saw that thread comparing Snowden/Morales to Harriet Tubman? And people wonder why there are so few of us around here?

[JustAnotherGen]

194. Yeppers

[Marr]

123. You were comparing him to MLK not two posts back, for fucks sake.

Face it, you got bent out of shape because someone gave you an example of how sticking around for the powers that be to exterminate you is not a necessary part of defending constitutional rights.

[CakeGrrl]

128. How do you figure?

Snowden is NOTHING like MLK in my view.

Where do you get that I was comparing him?

I challenge any assertion that what Snowden has done should be elevated to the actual heroism of MLK, who did not RUN from those who actively and violently oppressed basic human rights.

That you assume "extermination" is the outcome of being arrested by the U.S. is the adoption of Greenwald/Snowden paranoia. They say "He could be killed for this" and it's bizarre how so many accept that narcissistic speculation as fact.

But they sure whipped up their target audience into the intended frenzy, didn't they?

My bet? He gets arrested, faces trial and goes to jail - no heroic assassination, just jail, with no access to his toys. THAT is what I believe he fears most.

[Marr]

131. Do I really have to quote your own words to you when they're in a title right ^ there?

"MLK didn't run from the challenge. He faced intimidators head-on."

That is comparing Snowden to MLK. You're saying Snowden should've turned himself in to the authorities. You castigate the man for not being MLK. It's absurd.

And no, I don't think Snowden would've been physically exterminated had he done so, but he certainly would've been incarcerated and subjected to the same character assassination that's going on now. I see absolutely no reason for a whistleblower to turn themselves in for prosecution by a government that's doing the things ours does, and even less reason to give two figs about gaining the approval of people like yourself, who make excuses for the policies he helped to expose.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

175. Wouldn't that be contrasting, not comparing? N/T

[marions ghost]

192. +++

He knows enough to really fear the government's retaliation....

[chervilant]

37. Hides?

Snowden is in an untenable position, having tweaked the tail of the wrong tiger. He cannot hide anywhere on this planet.

(And, please don't accuse me of painting him with a hero's brush. I think hierarchy of any ilk is delimiting and damaging.)

[CakeGrrl]

89. I agree that he ultimately cannot hide, but he's doing his best.

What does one reasonably expect when they run off with classified U.S. information and share it with the likes of China and Russia?

What's bizarre about what's happening on this forum is that people are acting as if this is the first time they've ever heard the idea that someone could go to jail for doing that.

[chervilant]

96. hmm... "people are acting as if..."

I get uncomfortable when I read something that purports to identify a specific 'group' of people, then assigns the entire group a specific characteristic, or accuses the entire group of certain behaviors. I am concerned that such a stance is a form of bigotry that we don't need on this forum, or with each other.

I can appreciate that you are frustrated with the idea that Mr. Snowden is seeking to avoid the consequences of his actions, merited or not. On the other hand, I can appreciate those among us who are grateful that his actions have revealed the remarkable extent of the NSA's collection of meta-data on our citizenry and the citizenry of other nations.

Mostly, I am increasingly hopeful that our forum exemplifies the growing number of informed, involved citizens--those of us whose raison d'être is the recovery of our democracy, our economy, and our environment. Dare I say, our entire species? I remain hopeful that we can be the change we want to see in this world.

[CakeGrrl]

130. Just make that "some people"

I'd suggest that a bigger problem on the boards is the increasingly polarized "us" vs. "them" tone in a number of threads.

That phenomenon undermines the idea of this site as an exemplar of reasonable discussion. It seems to be heading in the opposite direction.

Hopefully, people are becoming more informed and involved at large - but that is less in evidence here based on the type of labels being casually and frequently applied when one disagree's with another poster's views.

[chervilant]

141. Are you familiar with Calhoun's work on overpopulation?

Our species is beginning to evince some of the classic behaviors he predicted.

I join you in your concern about the increased polarization on DU and in general. I am experiencing more and more divisive and derisive interactions online and in person.

And, let's not EVEN mention road rage!

I do hope our children and our children's children can fix the mess we've made...

[graham4anything]

51. +1

[LondonReign2]

58. So in your opinion

Snowden should have turned himself in an been tortured like Bradley Manning?

[CakeGrrl]

69. He should have lawyered up and turned himself in.

Your assumption that his situation would parallel Manning's is nothing but speculation.

Should all people who break the law simply evade prison for fear of how they speculate they'll be treated?

If I hit your friend with a car, do you agree that I should run and evade the penalty for doing so?

[LondonReign2]

200. There's one huge difference

If you hit my friend with a car, the US Government is unlikely to arrest you and torture you with 23 hour a day naked solitary confinement for a year.

[truedelphi]

116. Back in the day, American dissidents were not put into solitary confinement,

And there was absolutely NO Possibility of being renditioned or crucified. (My expression for "stress positions.)

And very important bonus situation: We still had a free press - witness how over 27 news organizations stepped forward to disseminate the Pentagon Papers. Yes, that's right, twenty seven major newspapers, from the New York Times to the Miami Herald to the LA Times.

Right now you'd be lucky to get one newspaper to consider it.

[tavalon]

144. And while one may be metaphoric (for now)

Both lost their lives.

[nashville_brook]

91. obedience is not the same as moral.

some here have a problem with that distinction.

[SunSeeker]

159. Snowden is like MLK? I thought he was supposed to be like Paul Revere...

[HardTimes99]

16. You can lead horses to water . . . For the life of me, the

DUers calling Snowden a 'coward' or a 'traitor' most need to read just this one snippet:

and I say that those who are seeking to make it appear that anyone who opposes ... is a fool or a traitor or an enemy... is a person that has taken a stand against the best in our tradition.

[Catherina]

22. And always the same disgraced horses too n/t

[TransitJohn]

18. There's a Democrat in the White House. WTH is the matter with you?

[Catherina]

112. I ran out of koolaid in June 2008 lol n/t

[The Link]

19. Not every method yet.

Drones are still in the bullpen.

[Catherina]

32. Yeah but give em time :( n/t

[Zorra]

25. Excellent post, Catherina. MLK made so many profound, relevant, timeless statements.

I would have loved to see him elected US President; I believe that if this had happened, our country would be on so much more of an evolved, progressive, and ethical course than the disgusting, corrupt, regressive mess that we are currently suffering from.

Thanks for posting this.

[Catherina]

31. This speech resonates so strongly right now

It makes me sad to imagine where our nation would be if Martin Luther King, or a man anything like him, had ever been elected President. Cuba would be a friend of the US, Latin America would be thriving, Americans would be employed and educated. Is it any wonder they gunned him down the minute he started speaking against the MIC?

[Zorra]

61. It is the standard MO of the MIC to use deceit, aggression, and violence against those most

capable of exposing and subjugating them with non-violence.

I hope some day that people of this planet stop paying attention to the whatevers, recognize the MIC for what it is, and rise up in unified non-violent direct actions that will permanently quarantine and neutralize the MIC. I see no other possible way to eliminate the deadly MIC cancer from our world.

This, from my POV, is our only hope for eliminating this insane system that is based in violence, destruction, waste, exploitation and profit, and creating evolving progressive systems that exist solely to promote the well-being, liberty, and happiness of the vast majority of human beings on the planet.

But we have to overcome the propaganda spread by the MIC, and their whatevers first. It is their mission to create confusion in order to prevent a large enough body of individuals from uniting as a force large enough to non-violently overcome the power of the MIC.

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul and faith
And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game
Rode a tank,
Held a general's rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah
I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
I shouted out,
"Who killed the Kennedys?"
When after all
It was you and me
Let me please introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached Bombay
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's confusing you
Is just the nature of my game
Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
Cause I'm in need of some restraint
So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste, um yeah
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, um yeah
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game

"Sympathy for the Devil"
Rolling Stones

[Catherina]

86. I see no other hope either

I am patiently waiting for .... change

Solo le pido a Dios (don't watch if you're down)

[WillyT]

33. HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!!

[Solly Mack]

34. K&R

[dbackjon]

39. DU seems still to be up and running.

[Demit]

44. So we can all relax! This is proof that democracy is permanent!

No need to worry about what could threaten democracy in this country. It is, somehow, indestructible! It is impervious to any assault made upon it and will live forever without change!
Because why? American exceptionalism?

[brooklynite]

47. The OP didn't say the dissent was at risk in the future...

...it say that every means was being used to stifle it today. Hardly a fair assessment.

[Demit]

107. I was responding to the post that says DU is still running.

As if that is proof of something.

And if you are referencing the OP to prove to me that MLK was talking about the present only, note that he used the verb form "will." Will seek. "It's a dark day in our nation when high-level authorities will seek to use every method..." My reading of that is that it of course includes the future.

[brooklynite]

48. Psst! I hear rumors of a secret Cable News channel that criticizes the Administration constantly!

...but to protect their underground identity, I can't reveal it's name.

[ProSense]

49. .

[CakeGrrl]

76. Right? A true 'authoritarian' administration would have ground that upstart out of existence.

Yet here they still are.

[treestar]

100. Here here!

I heard this guy Glenn Beck was arrested! Secretly spirited away to Gitmo! Have you seen him lately? Then there's this guy Hannity. He disappeared last week. Sarah Palin is long gone - they made her quit her governor's job! Now she's in Gitmo putting on her lipstick and fighting over space with Ann Coulter.

[graham4anything]

54. +1

[joshcryer]

152. OP is same person who cheered crackdowns in other countries.

Particularly Libya and Venezuela.

They don't care about dissent too terribly. Just want to get some easy adulation.

[forestpath]

56. K&R

[Enthusiast]

67. Kicked and Recommended! nt

[great white snark]

77. Dissent is alive and well. So is quoting Dr. King when trying to make a piss poor argument valid.

[Number23]

138. + a million. The only saving grace for this POS OP is that it's not sitting on 300 recs

Which is totally surprising given how "deep" and "profound" the level of discourse is around here and the "quality" of the joint's most prolific posters.

[snagglepuss]

98. k and r

[Agony]

101. the "smoooth patriotism" is thick in the air...

Last edited Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:58 PM - Edit history (1)

Thanks for taking the time to post this, sabrina .....i mean Catherina

Cheers,
Agony

[Catherina]

113. Sabrina!

Thank you. It's an absolute honor to be confused with Sabrina. I mean that sincerely

[Agony]

119. oops, SORRY...

but, yeah.... equally awesome

thanks for being here, btw

[Catherina]

148. You can

You can confuse me for Sabrina anytime lol

[ProSense]

108. Here's a good example of a "method to silence dissent"

(Washington, DC) – The Communications Law that the Ecuadorian National Assembly approved on June 14, 2013, seriously undermines free speech. The law includes overly broad language that will limit the free expression of journalists and media outlets.

The government had proposed a Communications Law in 2009 but it faced opposition in the National Assembly. The new National Assembly that formed in May with a majority of members from President Rafael Correa's political party approved a modified version of the original bill.

“This law is yet another effort by President Correa to go after the independent media,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director. “The provisions for censorship and criminal prosecutions of journalists are clear attempts to silence criticism.”

The law, which applies to both broadcast and print media, includes the following problematic provisions:

- more -

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/06/17/ecuador-end-assault-free-speech

The hyperbole is getting thick.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023163029

[ReRe]

122. Well, it looks like a dark day....

K&R

... when riot police in dark suits start riots at peaceful protests all over the world. When mass surveillance without reason or permission is perpetrated from private contractor buildings with darkened windows all over this land, surveying the communications of peoples of our land and the peoples and governments of other nations of the world. Indeed it looks like the darkest time our country has seen since the day we declared our independence 237 years ago yesterday, rivaled only by the era of the Civil War and it's aftermath.

BUT, just as dark falls every night, the morning will come. The world will not let stand this EVIL which has darkened the world since the dawn of the 21st Century. This EVIL was indeed born many decades ago but was brought to adulthood when the Supreme Court of the United States interfered with the 2000 general election.

Morning will come again, though we know not how. GOOD will win out, NOT EVIL.

"Doing good means going into the darkness and shining a light." ~~ Unknown

[JoePhilly]

126. What this OP needs ... is more bold font.

Otherwise its hard to take it seriously.

[Number23]

136. It would be hard for any moderately intelligent person with a second grade understanding of

American history to take this OP seriously.

Apparently being in jail or fleeing to Hong Kong to avoid going to jail is comparable to this









and

I am honestly not sure how much more of the ignorance, hyperbole and stupidity here I can take.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

154. Excellent!

[Number23]

157. Don't know why you'd care either way. Won't do anything for that transparency page

or the large number of posters ignoring you.

[JustAnotherGen]

208. Well done Madame

[MotherPetrie]

133. K&R

[DeSwiss]

140. K&R

“Since mankind's dawn, a handful of oppressors have accepted the responsibility over our lives that we should have accepted for ourselves. By doing so, they took our power. By doing nothing, we gave it away. We've seen where their way leads, through camps and wars, towards the slaughterhouse.” ~ Alan Moore, V for Vendetta

[snot]

146. Actually,

the second quotation is from JFK.

http://www.bartleby.com/73/1211.html

And he borrowed/modified it from Dante.

But I think King wouldn't mind the misattribution.

[blkmusclmachine]

151. .

.

[Judi Lynn]

160. Thank you, Catherina. Appreciate your investment here so much. n/t

[stonecutter357]

164. Metadata does not belong to you.

I'm dissenting and no one is stopping me.

[wisteria]

178. He is a traitor.

He deserves to be brought back and tried for his crimes against his country. A real egotist, who is feeding off all those who encourage his actions against his country. If he does find a home outside of America, I hope he has a miserable life.

[Zorra]

189. No can do. Dr. King was assassinated by a RW authoritarian in 1968.

"When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, militarism & economic exploitation are incapable of being conquered.... don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his divine, messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world "
- Martin Luther King

I suppose authoritarians would call someone who says things like this a traitor and an "egoist".

But that's what authoritarians do.

[NoodleyAppendage]

182. And, just like MLK, it is likely that Snowden will also be assassinated.

Those that threaten the balance of power are likely to suffer the consequences. Dissent is only tolerated as long as it does not threaten to usurp the "system."

[Catherina]

187. I hope not. But he sure is hated by the same selfish people, same hypocrites. n/t

[Oilwellian]

190. Great post

K&R

[99Forever]

193. K&R

[Rex]

197. Keep going!

Makes me think of Nelson Mandela and his struggle to go from prisoner to president. From pawn to powerhouse.

The man I most respect.

[Catherina]

198. What a great parallel Rex

I've listened to this speech at least a dozen times this week, and each time it sends more chills. And Nelson Mandela, thank you for all you've done, may your passage be as peaceful as possible.

[Rex]

199. A true leader of men and women.

I should add RIP MLK

We had some wonderful contemporary champions, I am proud of them all and that courage will be felt by all that read about them and others like them. They are world changers.

Not like the parasites that start wars for profit, but I won't start...

[liberal_at_heart]

204. K&R

[Jamaal510]

206. Wouldn't FOX News be shut down if dissent was being silenced?

And comparing what is happening with those leakers with MLK, a man who fought for equality...this thread is just pure, unadulterated libertarian bullshit. I'm disgusted to come across this trash about the President on a supposedly-Democratic website.

[JustAnotherGen]

211. Good point

Yet Bill-O still waxes stupid every chance he gets.

[mia]

207. K & R!

[baldguy]

209. Anyone who believes that this is what is going on with Snowden is seriously deluded.

As in Teabagger level deluded.

[marmar]

210. k/r