M.E. says Martin could NOT have moved after being shot.

[pnwmom]

There goes Z's story that he sat up afterwards. What a liar.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/george-zimmerman-judge-rejects-motion-dismiss-case/story?id=19582338#.UddXZjn3CYM

"From my experience and another autopsy we did three weeks ago, I don't believe he could move," Bao said.

Bao's claim that Martin would have been unable to move could cast doubt on Zimmerman's version of what happened during their violent confrontation on Feb. 26, 2012.

Zimmerman, who is being tried on charges of second degree murder, has maintained that he shot Martin after he was knocked down and beaten by Martin and the teenager went for Zimmerman's gun. After the shot was fired, Martin sat up and said, "You got me," Zimmerman told police and media.

Bao's claim that the wound would have immediately incapacitated Martin is the latest example of what the prosecution says are discrepancies in Zimmerman's version of what happened that night

[grok]

1. There have been suicide cases

where the person successfully stab themselves in the heart two times.

Obviously you need need to be able to move briefly the second time.
but it makes sense. brain doesn't stop firing synapses for at least a couple minutes after blood stops flowing. and muscles can still contract and expand for a few seconds with neural impulses. remember twitching frog legs in science class with a battery or Leyden jar? there is no blood flow there either!

Whether Zimmerman was telling the truth, imagined it or just plain lied is another thing.

UPDATE: about 5 to 10 seconds of consciousness. u lose it it quickly due to blood pressure loss. I wonder if it is longer if bullet remains in heart serving as plug temporarily.

[kestrel91316]

6. So you know better than a medical examiner what went on and how to interpret

autopsy findings?

Where did you go to medical school, and where did you go for your pathology residency?

[intheflow]

7. M.E. testified the bullet entered the chest and exited the back.

It didn't plug anything.

[Ruby the Liberal]

9. Actually, ME testified that there was no exit wound

2 holes in the heart (entry/exit) and he bled out into his lung to the point that they couldn't draw blood from his extremities (preferred method - legs) and had to draw from the chest as there wasn't enough blood left to do the test.

[intheflow]

12. I haven't been able to watch the trial, but

read this:

"The bullet went straight, directly from the front to the back," Bao said. "His heart beat until there was no blood left."

I read that as going in the front (chest) and out his back. That's how it reads to me.

[Ruby the Liberal]

16. I would have interpreted it the same way

On vacation this week (and the rain keeps coming ) so have been following the case.

In his testimony, Dr Bao said that the bullet left fragments in the lower chest (not sure how that works) but went through the heart twice (entry/exit) and that there was no chance of survival from this kind of wound - eg, CPR at the scene would not have helped.

[csziggy]

44. Jacketed hollow point bullet - fragmented into pieces

Bullet fragments stayed in the periocardial sac and the jacket pieces tore into the right lung and were in the right pleural cavity. From the autopsy report online at a number of locations.

[lumpy]

46. Why do you say there was no exit wound in your title? Just curious.

By the way didn't the defense say Martin was shot in the back?

[Captain Stern]

53. Pretty much nobody has said Martin was shot in the back

Martin was shot in the chest. The bullet entered the front of his heart, and exited the back of his heart, but remained in his body.

[Ruby the Liberal]

57. Because I listened to the testimony of the Medical Examiner, who

was asked how he knew the chest wound was an entry wound and not an exit wound. His response was that the fact that there wasn't an exit wound (the bullet was still in the body) pretty much resolved that question.

I don't recall hearing that the defense claimed Trayvon was shot in the back, but I only followed the proceedings for a couple of days. From what I have heard from the defense, I wouldn't be surprised if they claimed Trayvon shot himself just to make Zimmerman look bad.

After all - they did put words in Sybrina's mouth to state that she needed for the screaming to be Trayvon because otherwise, he was responsible for his own death.

[MrScorpio]

18. How long did it take you to come up with such a ridiculous argument?

I'm hazarding a guess around 5 to 10 seconds.

[Skittles]

24. don't you get it, MrScorpio?

Trayvon stayed alive just long enough to fit Zimmerman's story

[MrScorpio]

25. Didn't the first cop on the scene give Trayvon orders to show his hands while he was down?

That shit goes all the way around doesn't it?

Even dead Black teenagers are really dangerous.

[Skittles]

28. yup

the white-washing started before they even realized he was dead

[tblue]

27. Poor helpless little George

LIAR MURDERER CHILD-KILLER! Nothung in his pitiful story holds water. Nothing.

[Skittles]

30. he truly is pathetic

I cannot even watch the trial - Zimmerman's failure (and the initial failure of the authorities) to accept that he set in motion the events that would end in the death of an innocent teenager - it is disgusting

[tblue]

37. The very definition of a travesty.

I've been watching on and off. It's pretty riveting at times but it was very painful to watch his mom listen to that 911 call and hear the screams and gunshot. I can't get past it.

[tblue]

38. Superhuman Trayvon was.

Amazing what he could accomplish with a bullet through his heart.

Did you hear the part about him being shot from a distance of up to 4 feet? Nothing adds up in Zimmerman's story. Nothing.

[gollygee]

31. +1

5 to 10 seconds at most.

[Jackpine Radical]

23. A knife doesn't deliver the kind of shock that a bullet does.

Being shot in the chest is like being slammed by a hammer.

[Kingofalldems]

26. What a great story.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

47. you sound ridiculous.

oh, by the way. puncture wounds from a knife act very differently than a bullet exploding organs on impact.

[moondust]

2. I heard O'Mara today

claim that TM was alive long enough that he could have moved his hands from being outstreteched the way Zimmerman claimed to being tucked up against or under his body when the police arrived.

Sure.

[premium]

3. It was the ME

who said that Trayvon clinged to life for 1-10 minutes but it was his opinion that he wouldn't be able to move.

[pnwmom]

35. Could possibly have, not DID.

[premium]

43. I stand corrected. nt.

[DearAbby]

50. We do have proof Martin

was dead when the police officer administered CPR. That was within minutes of the shooting. We have a neighbor who claimed to have seen Zimmerman walking around the body, not on top of it saying "help me restrain him."

We gave no evidence Zimmerman touched the body following the shooting.

[Little Star]

4. I heard that too, I think on CNN. I thought what a crock of crap!

[Honeycombe8]

13. I saw that. I think the ME agreed that TM would have been able to do that. nt

[moondust]

15. I didn't hear that part.

I find it very hard to believe.

[Honeycombe8]

17. I'm pretty sure that's why the lawyer asked that question. He knew the answer. nt

[moondust]

39. Doesn't that contradict the OP?

[Honeycombe8]

61. Well, you're taxing my memory, now.

But no, it didn't contradict his other testimony. MAYBE he said it would've been like some simple, reflexive actions, or the like, immediately after the shot. I THINK that's what he indicated, but I don't quite remember. They clarified that, though.

I also think (but this may just be my thinking and not something the ME said) that when the ME said he wouldn't be able to move after being shot, he didn't mean that very second. The body of course moves after being shot. They fall down, if they were standing. Or the body turns position, etc. He meant TM couldn't have willfully moved within seconds after the shot. If that makes sense. But I'm not sure if that's what the ME said or just an impression I got.

[customerserviceguy]

32. I'm pretty sure

that O'Mara has at least a couple of his experts lined up to say that TM could have moved, and that GZ's injuries were significant. It just becomes a battle of how effective the attorney teams are at attacking the other side's experts. I did notice that GZ's team did get a couple of licks in on the prosecution expert witnesses, we'll see what the prosecutor can do to whatever O'Mara was able to dig up.

[pnwmom]

36. "Moving" covers a lot of ground. Z says Trayvon SAT UP and talked.

Someone lying down, with a bullet in his heart, sat up and talked.

Right.

[customerserviceguy]

58. It's important to distinguish

what embellishments (lies, if you will) GZ told Hannity, who was probably egging him on, and what he told police. It's not a crime to lie to a reich-wing radio and TV talk show host.

Also, I will be extremely surprised if O'Mara calls GZ to the stand. Enough of his narrative has already gotten out to the jury, now the defense team is just trying to fully flesh it out. If GZ takes the stand, then all kinds of nasty things come out to damage his credibility. Seeing how aggressive O'Mara and West have been this last couple of weeks, I think we're in for a doozy for the rest of the trial. I fully expect Trayvon Martin's mindset to be put on trial by them.

[struggle4progress]

5. IIRC penetration of the pleural cavity usually produces lung collapse and inability to breath

So after a straight-through shot to the heart, it's very unlikely Mr Martin could say anything

A serious wound to the heart probably produces an immediate drop in BP, which together with the shock reaction from trauma probably produced rather quick loss of consciousness

In Mr Martin's last few moments of consciousness, he was probably completely pre-occupied with breathing difficulties and dizziness from pain and low BP

[JI7]

10. so you don't think he said "gosh, you got me" after being shot ?

[tblue]

40. Doesn't everybody?

That cockamamie story should be laughed out of court. Why didn't GZ just say Trayvon instantly manufactured a gun out of his iced tea can and bullets out of his Skittles? That's just as believable.

[femmedem]

11. Yes. From the article "Drowning Doesn't Look Like Drowning" which was on DU a while back:

"Except in rare circumstances, drowning people are physiologically unable to call out for help. The respiratory system was designed for breathing. Speech is the secondary or overlaid function. Breathing must be fulfilled before speech occurs."

http://health.heraldtribune.com/2013/06/17/drowning-doesnt-look-like-drowning/

I reread this article today because a child in my city drowned yesterday at the beach, and I thought of Trayvon.

[tblue]

41. Just want to cry. Poor little kid.

Dammit!

[femmedem]

60. Me, too. I had met him only a week or two earlier. He was a beautiful child. n/t

[lumpy]

48. Correct, lung collapse, immediate heart damage; impossible to believe Trayvon

sat up, let alone that he could have made any dying statements or what could amount to some kind of a confession as Zimmerman claims to have happened. I believe Zimmerman dreamed this up to try and make it appear that Trayvon was admitting to criminal activity to suit his reason for being there.

[uppityperson]

8. k&r. There is a big difference between "being alive" and "being able to move"

[egduj]

14. Has his opinion changed since then?

It seems every time this bozo watches a tv show or reads a comic, he changes his mind.

And god help me if i have to hear him try to explain the difference between facts and opinions again.

[Cha]

19. "You got me"! That sounds like a stupid gratuitious lie..

what was he thinking embellishing like that?!

[Blue_Roses]

21. sounds like something Jim Carrey said in the movie

"The Mask."

I've been wondering why this ridiculous comment kept sticking in my head. It sounded so familiar.

[Cha]

22. Exactly, Blue Roses :(

[Warpy]

29. Or "Ya got me, coppah!"

in one of Cagney's crime movies. It is just not realistic, considering how much blood was displacing any air in Martin's lungs immediately on the bullet entering his heart.

Trust me, he didn't react. By the time he realized he'd been shot, he was dead.

Given his injuries, he certainly didn't say anything, especially anything that stupid.

Zimmerman is a punk and a liar.

[displacedtexan]

42. That's what we used to say as kids when we played Cops & Robbers.

Remember?

[lumpy]

49. Because Zimmerman was trying to make a case that he was right in following Martin.

One way to try and justify his actions in following his 'criminal' prey. Something he drummed up to try and make it appear that he got his man and the man tried to 'hold up his hands' and said "you got me" or something to that effect. Not only is Zimmerman a liar and a killer; it appears he is delusional.

[Cha]

51. Oh wow.. I really did wonder.. thanks for that

explanation, lumpy.

[arely staircase]

20. didn't he stand up and say "you got me you dirty rat" ? nt

[Mojo Electro]

33. Basic physiology.

Barring catastrophic damage to the nervous system, a person would likely still be able to move, for at least a few seconds.

"Bao told the court that Martin, 17, was shot in the heart and said, "There was no chance he could survive."

The medical examiner said that Martin would have lived anywhere from one minute to 10 minutes after being shot as his beating heart ran out of blood to pump.

His brain is still alive?" prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda asked.

"Yes," he replied. "

[lumpy]

52. Martin's lungs were nonfunctional,full of blood, heart directly punctured and containing

bullet fragments. He would not have been able to sit up or speak. Maybe for a second or two, maybe a finger twitch. His body was not functioning in order for him to do and say anything as Zimmerman has claimed.

[Gravitycollapse]

54. Basic physiology requires no such thing.

[Starry Messenger]

34. That's going to be a bummer to all the people who asserted that Trayvon turned into Optimus Prime

for 10 seconds while fighting to breathe.

[csziggy]

45. What really bothers me is that neither Zimmerman or the first witness

Manolo, ever even checked to see if Trayvon was injured or needed assistance. Zimmerman casually talked with Manolo until the first cop arrived. Manolo spent his time taking snapshots of the scene, Zimmerman's head, Trayvon's body.

Neither even checked Trayvon for breathing, for a pulse, for a wound, nothing. Of course that fits the depraved indifference attributed to Zimmerman. What about that witness? Sure Zimmy may have told him he shot Trayvon - but lots of people get shot without instantly dying.

Zimmerman later claimed he wasn't sure he'd even hit Trayvon - - so the kid he claimed had been holding down Z suddenly keels over, stops moving, and makes no more sounds (or maybe said "You got me!&quot . Z jumps on him, pulls his arms out - with no resistance, then gets up, and basically ignores the guy? Then Z claims he's surprised the guy is dead? Bullshit.

This makes me feel even worse for the Martin family. The last thing Trayvon probably felt was the bullet going through his heart - and maybe obese Zimmerman jumping on his back.

[lumpy]

55. Even worse on Sean Hannity's TV show Fox News, Zimmerman said he had no

regrets, no remorse and would not change anything he did in the killing of Trayvon Martin. This is the result of an egotistical fool who had the overwheming desire for fame and celebrity.. Don't know the results of a flawed investigation and court case, he has his wish, he's now famous for killing a teenager and he was on TV.
No regrets, no remorse.

[Captain Stern]

56. That's bugged me too.

Regardless of what happened, it sounds like nobody was really all that worried about why a guy was laying there and not moving at all.

The first witness that came out, really had no idea what had happened, yet it sounds like he just figured that a kid laying face-down on the ground, and not moving was ok. I get that not everybody knows CPR, but I would like to think that most folks would at least do something....instead of just standing around.

[csziggy]

59. Zimmerman told the first witnesses he'd shot the kid

But no one checked him or did first aid efforts until the second cop go on the scene. The first cop (I guess rightfully) secured the firearm and took custody of the admitted shooter. The second cop arrived during that and he's the one who administered first aid.

What if Trayvon had just been badly injured - he could have died while these unfeeling assholes wandering around, taking snapshots. Depraved indifference, indeed!

I know the ME said that nothing could have saved Trayvon Martin, but it appalls me that the people on the scene immediately after the shot made no effort whatsoever.