TRAYVON MARTIN IS NOT ON TRIAL

[Hugabear]

Right now the defense is talking about Trayvon trying to buy a gun sometime before he visited Sanford.

I don't give a flying fuck if Trayvon was running a weekly fight club and heading up a vast south Florida drug cartel. None of this changes the fact that he was minding his own business going to and from the store when he was MURDERED in cold blood by the racist vigilante Zimmerman.

NOTHING in Trayvon's past should be admissible in court, as it has ZERO relevance.

[enough]

1. Why is this sort of thing being allowed in the trial? (nt)

[Lex]

4. It shouldn't be. It's irrelevant as hell. Like bringing up the past sexual history of

a woman who was attacked and killed.

[Nevernose]

8. Right now it's admissibility is being discussed

The jury is out for the evening.

It seems remarkable that they'd even try. Of they succeeded, I'd bring in Z's criminal history, domestic violence history, the allegations of molestation his own family made against him, the whole works in his sordid little history. And use the defense's own arguments to do it.

At best, Z's history, both alleged and confirmed, demonstrate he has remarkably poor decision making skills. At worst he's a sociopath who's used to doing bad shit and lying successfully to get away with it.

[tblue]

70. That's much more relevant!

I can't stand the way they disparage this MURDERED CHILD! Was he supposed to NOT stand HIS ground against this thug with an itchy trigger finger? He fought back. Isn't that what we teach our children? "You kick, punch, elbow, break a nose if you have to, so you don't get kidnapped by some crazy man." What the hell was he supposed to do?

Trayvon's parents are so courageous and an example for all of us. They have suffered so, and yet they exude only dignity.

[awoke_in_2003]

65. Victim shaming...

they do it a lot in rape trials.

[sabrina 1]

69. If it is, then the prosecution should have introduced information on Zimmerman's past

record, domestic abuse and assaulting a PO, airc.

[shenmue]

2. You are correct

[hrmjustin]

3. K&R!

[LittleBlue]

5. It's only being allowed because of a self-defense case

I don't think it would normally.

But in self-defense, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you weren't in fear of death or grievous bodily harm. Issues regarding Trayvon are introduced because, unlike a vanilla murder trial in which only the actions of the accused is important, in self-defense the actions of both shooter and the victim are equally important.

Like you say, it puts both on trial. There's just no other logical way to approach this, however.

[Hugabear]

10. Zimmerman didn't know anything about Trayvon

He didn't know anything about what Trayvon might have done or said before their encounter, so it couldn't have been a factor.

[Lex]

13. Exactly. nt

[LittleBlue]

15. That isn't relevant. nt

[yardwork]

64. The defense depends on Zimmerman being afraid of what Trayvon was doing.

Since Zimmerman didn't know Trayvon's history, that is not relevant. It wouldn't matter if Trayvon had been an axe murderer. Since Zimmerman didn't know that, it wouldn't be a factor in whether or not Zimmerman was afraid.

[Vattel]

72. It affects the probability that Martin assaulted Zimmerman.

So it is evidentially relevant.

[Just Saying]

76. So thinking about buying a gun (maybe)

"Affects the probability" that one would commit assault?

[yardwork]

83. So does Zimmerman's violent history

Zimmerman's history of multiple assaults says a lot about the probability that he assaulted Martin without provocation.

[Vattel]

85. I agree

[vankuria]

82. No matter what Zimmerman

thought of Trayvon whether he was an axe murderer, drug dealer, or on the 10 most wanted list, etc., you don't take the law into your own hands. You contact law enforcement who are specially trained to deal with this and let them do their jobs.

Nothing about Trayvon Martin real or imagined, takes away from the fact that George Zimmerman was pretending to be law enforcement and an innocent young man lost his life.

[Lex]

12. Trayvon didn't have a gun that night.

So it's not relevant to whether Zimmerman was in fear of him for that reason.

[LittleBlue]

16. It is according to the law. nt

[Lex]

17. No it's not. nt

[A Simple Game]

21. Then all the more reason to assume Zimmerman had his gun out when he confronted Martin. n/t

[frylock]

33. cite, please

[LittleBlue]

36. Citation

The extent of Zimmerman’s injuries – and whether they pointed to risk of “death or great bodily harm” – was also examined this week during testimony. "Death or great bodily harm" is the standard for using lethal force in self-defense, under Florida law.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2013/0703/Trayvon-Martin-case-Zimmerman-studied-self-defense-law-witness-says-video

The assertion "Trayvon didn't have a gun that night. So it's not relevant to whether Zimmerman was in fear of him for that reason." doesn't invalidate this law. Someone could threaten you with a pair of scissors, a tennis racket, or even their bare fists, and the self-defense laws would still apply as long as you genuinely feared "death or great bodily harm".

[TrollBuster9090]

41. So, Zimmerman was PSYCHIC, and knew that Martin had tried to buy a gun just by looking at him?

And that was a reason to fear for his life?

Seriously, what does that citation have to do with whether Martin had attempted to buy a gun at any point in his life? Zimmerman had no way of knowing whether Martin had ever attempted to buy a gun, or whether he had smoked pot (possibly WEEKS before). And any attempts by the Defense to enter that information into the trial is just grasping at straws.

[LittleBlue]

44. I don't know where the defense is going with this tbh

Arguing that Trayvon tried to buy a gun, therefore he was violent? That seems to incriminate their own client.

Regardless, the judge is letting the jury decide. She's not necessarily telling the jury to take this piece of information seriously, I believe she's deferring to the defense so the case is less open to appeal.

[frylock]

42. is TM not afforded the right to defend himself against "Death or great bodily harm?"

[NoOneMan]

56. He is too. Whoever wins is solid. Whoever can afford a gun to kill is the winner

Super duper public policy

[frylock]

59. what a country

[delrem]

75. I hope it doesn't come down to

"driving while black" = "dead while black".

TM didn't have a fuckin weapon! Looks to me that he was chased down and assassinated, after which there was an *equally criminal* coverup by the police dep't.

[reusrename]

50. Yeah, but he had a picture of a gun!

[Marrah_G]

57. But he didn't know anything about Martin except that he was young and black

[delrem]

77. It's being allowed because the Judge is bad.

Facts from TMs history have no fucking bearing on Z's state of mind, because Z didn't have a clue about them.
What kind of utter fool judge would think that Z could've been "in fear of death" because TM did this or that earlier, since Z didn't know anything about TM except that he was an apparently "black punk who always gets away with it"?

What is it that recommends this judgment? Is it that although Z, armed with a loaded gun, tracked down and shot TM, he *might've* known such and such about TM, if only he had know that it was TM (and not some generic "black punk&quot he was shooting dead, close up?

This trial stinks and I'll be glad when it's over, and I really really hope that the jury (chosen just because they were totally ignorant of close to *anything*) makes a decision against armed vigilantism.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

6. That has nothing to do with the trial!

[malaise]

7. Well said

They really seem to be forgetting that he was staying at said complex with his father. He was not some criminal walking around - that was Zimmerman the hunter, the racist, the liar and the police wanna be.

[yardwork]

66. It's a window into how Zimmerman saw Trayvon, and how the law enforcement community saw him.

To them, Trayvon Martin was a criminal because they believe that all young black males are criminals. Zimmerman and all the people supporting Zimmerman can't believe that the rest of us don't understand that Martin was dangerous.

This case has revealed to me a level of racism in this country that I had not wanted to believe.

[FarPoint]

9. It sure feels like Trayvon is on trial.

The defense is making Trayvon out to be a rotten hoodlum. How can the Prosecution and the Judge stop the malicious defense team? All that matters are the last 30 minutes of Trayvons time on earth...this other data is a diversion and smoke screen.

[HipChick]

11. ZM attacked a Policeman ,molested a woman, and beat up an ex GF? Why aren't they discussing that?

[yardwork]

67. To me, Zimmerman's history is highly relevant because it indicates a pattern of violent behavior.

Zimmerman's history also indicates his habit of blaming other people when he gets violent. After attacking his former girlfriend, Zimmerman pressed charges against her, claiming that she had attacked him. Sounds familiar....

[Maraya1969]

86. Can the prosecution now bring in Z's past as a defense rebuttal? The defence opened the door to

that particular bag of worms.

[Spazito]

14. I agree, Trayvon did NOT have a gun when he was shot, Zimmerman did...

Trayvon wasn't following Zimmerman looking for a fight, Zimmerman was following Trayvon and then shot him. All this crap the defense is trying to get in has NO relevance to the events the night Trayvon was shot and killed.

[Blue Bike]

18. Wouldn't it be weird if the judge prohibited discussion about Trayvon Martin?

Is there precedent of a trial where self-defense is claimed, of the actions and state of mind of the victim (deceased or not) being excluded?

[Lex]

31. Since Trayvon has already been discussed, then yeah,

it would be weird.

[reusrename]

52. Sure, but this stuff has nothing to do with either his actions or his state of mind.

It's just stuff to try and smear him with.

Black kid buys gun - oh, my!

Watch the gun nutters flip out over that one.

[Avalux]

19. He was a 17 year old KID.

He has been portrayed as the big, bad, druggie black guy who attacked a feeble, weak, overweight do good-er; flipping victim with perpetrator - surely the only way Zimmerman had to defend himself was with a gun!

I pray those jurors use their common sense, see through the spectacle, and don't allow Zimmerman to walk away.

[CatWoman]

20. ...

[Just Saying]

23. This!!! ^^^

Exactly what I've been saying.

Nothing pisses me off faster than being accused by Zimmerman sympathizes that I want to lynch him since that seems to be exactly what he did to Trayvon.

[uponit7771]

30. +1

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

35. YES!!!

[Savannahmann]

22. To a certain extent, I agree with you.

However, our system is set up where the prosecution has the most difficult challenge. Our system, in an effort to reduce, and perhaps even eliminate (not yet but one day with luck and hard work) innocent people going to prison. The principle at work here is simple. It is better that a thousand guilty men go free, than one innocent man go to prison. Great for the innocent, not too good for the victims of the guilty who are going free.

The Prosecution contends and most people here believe, that Zimmerman was off on a nearly psychotic racist fueled hunt for a bad guy. He was a vigilante incarnate. I wonder, if I had my way, if he'd have gone on the hunt. Because I don't agree with, do not support private ownership of guns, I wonder if he would have been more reluctant to chase Travon down had be been unarmed. Unfortunately, we may never know what the absence of guns will do to our society.

The Defense contends that Zimmerman may have been rash, but his motives were pure. And far from being a persecuted victim, that Travon was a hothead, using any excuse to resort to violence. That the claimed attack was in keeping with Travon's personality. That's why the Defense wanted the evidence of Travon's school history of fights etc. included into evidence. BTW, I'm not sure that excluding it was a good move, because it gives the defense grounds for an appeal that will look strong to those who support such take the law into your own hands actions calling it public service.

So what are we talking about. The Prosecution has to push a big rock up a hill, proving beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman wanted to kill, and Travon was mearly a target of opportunity, fitting a profile that Zimmerman was ill equipped to apply.

The defense on the other hand just has to nudge the big rock off course, keeping it from reaching the top of the hill.

That's the way the system is supposed to work, and I've already seen too many cases where the Defendant had to prove his innocence beyond a reasonable doubt. I honestly hope that I never see another case like that again.

Before you ask, yes one particular case is coming to mind. Twenty years ago, nearly. A man was convicted of robbing a bank, despite the fact not entered into evidence by his public defender, that he was two states away at the time. An hour after the robbery took place, in Georgia, the defendant was making a withdrawal at a Bank ATM in North Carolina. You couldn't make that drive in a race car, too much traffic. You couldn't clear the ticket lines at an airport and get on the plane much less to North Carolina in that time.

An innocent man went to prison, until the truth was found out. Because the jury felt he must be guilty of something. I'm sure we can all list cases, tell stories, of miscarriages of Justice that have been decried here. I'm not saying that Zimmerman is innocent, a saint, or anything remotely heroic. I think he is a jackass of nearly epic proportions. But, because the alternative is far more upsetting to me than Travon going un-avenged by the courts, I want Zimmerman to have a fair trial. Because I'm tired of picking up the news, and reading another story of an innocent man or woman, who was convicted with bullshit legal tricks, or shoddy science.

These miscarriages of justice don't just happen here in Georgia. Here's one I saw on a Nova episode called Forensics on Trial. Roy Brown who was convicted of murder, and was absolutely innocent.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/Roy_Brown.php

So tell me, does the defendant deserve the best possible trial? Does the defendant deserve the benefit of the doubt? Or must we judge cases based upon passion and intensity, and only apply the strictest possible standards for a fair trial to those we like? I'm going with the former. Because if Zimmerman is convicted in the fairest possible trial, then all the appeals in the world won't help. But if Zimmerman is denied the fairest possible trial, his conviction could well be overturned. The Prosecutor is supposed to do the heavy lifting, we used to demand that in the idea of finding the truth, and reducing the instances of innocent men and women sent to prison.

[Lex]

26. Still, introducing any evidence that Trayvon may have

tried to buy a gun at any time in the past is irrelevant to whether Zimmerman was acting in self-defense, which is the point of the OP.

[Savannahmann]

27. I was referring to the last line more than anything.

[Lex]

81. Complete bullshit.

And the texts are not coming in anyway.

[DonCoquixote]

32. ok Hear this..

What is at stake is the intent of Zimmerman. We know very well that he was told not to engage. We also know that most neighborhood watch programs discourage lone patrols, and flat out ban weapons.

http://www.huliq.com/3257/national-neighborhood-watch-director-criticizes-zimmermans-actions-trayvon-martin-shooting

From said quote:
In addition, although Zimmerman broke no laws because he has a concealed weapons permit, it's something that Neighborhood Watch strongly discourages. "There's no reason to carry a gun," Tutko said. "You do not carry a weapon during neighborhood watch. If you carry a weapon, you're going to pull it."

So ,this guy was already acting beyond the limits set aside by the NATIONAL DIRECTOR of neighborhood watch. He was also taped as saying "they always get away, fu___ing Goons." I will not even get into the debate about whether he really said "goons" or a word that would just happen to describe the race of the dozen people he called in about the week before.

And yes,he had to prove he felt threatened. He felt threatened knowing he was armed, not knowing if the kid was armed.

I apologize to sound mean, but this issue, more than any NSA issue, or the usual fighting amongst ourselves, is what really makes me feel that DU has let in some scary people. Most Duers know why the gun lovers want their guns; Michael Moore did a very ugly, but true explanation. And frankly, I shudder to know,not think, know how this will feed into Florida's already crazy profile, with so many people thinking that if they went back to the Jim Crow days, they could avoid the chaos their beloved GOP has inflicted.

[Just Saying]

51. Well said. n/t

[tblue]

71. Ok. But if the shooter was black,

I have a hard time believing the dead victim's character "flaws" would be used as a defense with a likelihood of succeeding.

[MrScorpio]

24. Damn Skippy, Brother! nt

[Skittles]

25. of course Trayvon is on trial

it's the only way they can get that gun-humping vigilante coward to evade responsibility for murdering an unarmed teenager who was minding his own business

[Iliyah]

28. Defense is trying to prove that

TM caused his own death.

I'm pretty sure that won't fly and then you have the corporate media basically saying that Z is going to walk which I don't think that will happen as well.

[lumpy]

40. Yes, the fact that the defense even came up with such a smarmy question of whether

Martin caused his own death is outrageous. The more I delve into this case the more I become convinced that the public should be shielded from Zimmerman.

[dballance]

29. Of Course He Is.

And frankly the defense attorneys wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't put him on trial. I don't really hate them for it. They have to do it to give their client the best possible defend.

[lumpy]

47. By bringing in details of Martin's character/background is the defense trying to prove that

Zimmerman had every right to suspect Martin of being a criminal, hunt him down and consequently do away with him with a shot ? Martin was not a known suspect, Zimmerman didn't even know Martin existed and pursued him until Martin no longer exists.
Lawyers are known to use underhanded/unethical/cruel methods to try and win their cases. It is up to the judge to allow, or not, this attempt to smear Martin. Let's hope the judge is fair minded and ethical.

[dballance]

79. Agreed

[tofuandbeer]

34. Yeah, CNN was saying what a nice person one of the defense lawyers was...

I think they are scum.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

37. CNN = Faux News-lite. Turn it off. :)

[tofuandbeer]

73. Thx. I don't usually watch it, but it was on at the gym...and I agree with you.

[TrollBuster9090]

38. No kidding. I wonder if he'd SUCCEEDED in buying a gun, and ended up shooting Zimmerman

instead of vice versa, if the gun nuts and the Florida Legal System would be putting up a spirited defense of Trayvon Martin's right to STAND HIS GROUND under the stupid Stand Your Ground statutes?

Seriously, folks, this is stupid beyond belief.

An armed asshole with a vigilante complex saw a kid in his neighborhood, assumed he was up to something nefarious based on his age, dress, and color; followed him around, chased him down, confronted him and shot him. Whether Martin defended himself is immaterial. Whether he'd smoked pot a week earlier or not is immaterial, and whether he'd ever attempted to buy a gun is immaterial. He was profiled, followed, chased down, confronted and SHOT DEAD. If the guy who did it is acquitted on the grounds of 'self defense' it will make a mockery out of any concept of 'Justice' in America.

[Voice for Peace]

78. +++

[heaven05]

39. american/floridian

justice in a case like this is guaranteed to free the murderer. It will not surprise me if he gets a reduced sentence and is walking free soon, or gets off scott free because he was in danger from those damn skittles and tea.

[TrollBuster9090]

45. Frankly, I'm far less worried about Zimmerman getting a reduced sentence, plead down to Manslaughter

or getting early parole than I am about him being totally acquitted, thus setting a legal precedent that it's okay for you to be 'suspicious' of somebody (based on their appearance--because Zimmerman had no other information), follow them around, chase them, confront them, and then if they 'react,' you can SHOOT them.

That's tantamount to saying "It's legal to SHOOT somebody because they make you nervous."

I seriously don't want that to stand as a legal precedent in America, or it'll literally be OPEN HUNTING SEASON on teenaged African Americans.

[brett_jv]

74. If he was going to 'plead down' to manslaughter, it would've already happened, long ago ...

Edit: Decided to start my own thread on this topic, inspired by your comment

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023214095

[Nine]

43. Guns are only bad when black males are interested in them, apparently.

Zimmerman was a good guy with a gun. Trayvon Martin was a bad kid who may have thought about buying a gun... to commit crimes with obviously. Why else would a black teen want a gun?



It's amazing how the gun nuts are suddenly offended at the idea of someone talking about getting a gun.

And, oh yeah, as everyone has already said, this has nothing to do with Zimmerman killing Martin that evening.

[riverwalker]

46. Trayvon was more of a man than Zimmerman ever will be

Rachel said Trayvon was one of the few who was kind to her, who never made fun of her (and many did), who offered friendship and acceptance,
Zimmerman however, was a known bully at his place of employment, the deposition of his co-workers attest to this , and I don't know why it was not used in court. Zimmerman was a punk and a bully.

[lumpy]

49. Most of us believe that if Martin's private life is exposed in this court then it should be allowed

to drag in all of Zimmerman's smarmy anti-social and illegal debacles.

[obama2terms]

48. First off, he didn't have a gun the night he was murdered

And second, Trayvon and Zimmerman were strangers, so how would he know about ANY of that?

[lumpy]

54. Sounds like the defense is getting desparate. This new tactic is purely the defense trying to

influence the jury to look upon Martin as some unsavory character. . Does not have any bearing on this case. Disgusting.

[NoOneMan]

55. They want to jury to think that even if he didn't cause his death, he was "purgeable"

But desperate? No way. Zimmy will walk

[obama2terms]

88. I hope you're right!

No matter how anyone looks at it, he still killed someone and deserves to get in at least SOME trouble for it!

[NoOneMan]

53. Unfortunately he was not armed

In this case, the person who has the money to purchase and legally carry lethal force gets to be the only one to live and create their fantasy alternate reality that justified the murder.

So, in a way, it is a class issue.

[darkangel218]

58. BS.

How many 17 y old privilaged kids carry guns around??

What the fuck??

[NoOneMan]

60. In this specific case, thats true simply due to age

But otherwise, this is what things boil down to with this bullshit self-defense claim. The person with the money that "wins" the fight by employing their purchased force is the one who gets to make shit up. This is the best murder loophole for middle-class people who can afford firearms.

[reusrename]

61. He had a picture of a gun on his phone.

A scary one too, with someone's hand wrapped around the grip.

[NoOneMan]

62. I want to know if that mystery hand had trace THC in their bloodstream

Is there anything more relevant to this case besides this and Trayvon's ringtone?

[c588415]

63. Zimmerman's troubled past

G Zimmerman was arrested on 3 separate occasions. I know for a fact that he was arrested for domestic violence, and assaulting a police officer. The charges were dropped due to the influence of his father( retired judge). Too bad the prosecution won't pursue Zimmerman's troubled past. What's even worse, he is going to walk free, and there will be no justice for Trayvon. It's sad that an unarmed teen, not breaking any laws, was gunned down by a racist "Kojak" wannabe.

[yardwork]

68. Welcome to DU!

[markiv]

84. victims are ALWAYS on trial

it's court reality

courts are ugly places

always have been

[indepat]

87. The judge, by allowing a tiny bit of marijuana in Trayvon's system to be entered as evidence,

has put Trayvon on trial imo.