Greenwald calls USA "lawless, rogue empire" in defense of Snowden

[uhnope]

And he still wants to be considered an objective journalist? It's obvious Greenwald loathes this country and our president.

It's also really funny how he is now Snowden's PR man, instead of a journalist, talking about how Snowden is too smart to possibly leak any data from his various laptops he's carting around the dictatorships he's so fond of. And how does Greenwald know, sitting in England, what Snowden did in China or Russia?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/10/us-usa-security-snowden-greenwald-idUSBRE96901G20130710

Snowden's challenge, he added, is "figuring out how to get to the country that has offered him asylum" despite the efforts of the United States, which Greenwald characterized as "the rogue, lawless empire that has proven itself willing to engage in rogue behavior to prevent him physically from getting there."

Greenwald dismissed suggestions that Snowden's passage through China and Russia had given authorities in either country the opportunity to seize the intelligence in his possession. "He gave no information of any kind to the Chinese government or the Russian government," Greenwald said.

Media reports have said Snowden is traveling with numerous laptop computers but Greenwald said the former contractor is not foolish enough to store information where it could be easily seized.

"There are all sorts of smarter and safer ways for someone who knows what they're doing - and he knows what he's doing - to store and carry large amounts of data."

[Pretzel_Warrior]

1. Get the Fonz's leather jacket.

Greenwald has jumped the shark.

[MjolnirTime]

2. Glenn Beck Greenwald

[arely staircase]

3. Using the terms "lawless" and "rogue" while defending Snowden is priceless. nt

[AllINeedIsCoffee]

28. This. nt

[Thinkingabout]

35. K & R

[SidDithers]

66. Nailed it...

Sid

[Tarheel_Dem]

67. +1000

[Cha]

68. Greenwald doesn't have a fucking clue and he knows his fans will eat

this shit up for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Midnight snacks, too.

[tammywammy]

86. +1 n/t

[DontTreadOnMe]

4. Hey.. Journalists want to be Stars too!!!!

Isn't this how you become a famous journalist?

[polichick]

5. After Iraq, calling us a "lawless, rogue empire" is hardly surprising.

[ProSense]

6. But

"After Iraq, calling us a 'lawless, rogue empire' is hardly surprising."

...Greenwald would have no room to talk. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023134060

Also, Bush is no longer President, and the President Obama ended the Iraq war.

[polichick]

12. Doesn't matter who's president, we are a "lawless, rogue empire"...

in many ways. Not the people, but certainly the mic, certainly Wall Street, certainly the corporations that continue to destroy this planet, certainly the 1% who hide their wealth offshore. Etc., etc.

"Liberty and justice for all" is an idea without practice.

"Lawless, rogue empire" is almost too quaint for what's going on.

[ProSense]

16. I think it

"Doesn't matter who's president, we are a 'lawless, rogue empire'..."

...it does. For example, China is accused of cyber theft. Is the U.S. a '"lawless, rogue empire" compared to the country that Snowden revealed U.S. state secrets to?

<...>

Within hours of news breaking that the US had filed charges against Snowden, the South China Morning Post reported that the whistleblower had handed over a series of documents to the paper detailing how the US had targeted Chinese phone companies as part of a widespread attempt to get its hands on a mass of data.

Text messaging is the most popular form of communication in mainland China where more than 900bn SMS messages were exchanged in 2012.Snowden reportedly told the paper: "The NSA does all kinds of things like hack Chinese cellphone companies to steal all of your SMS data."

The paper said Snowden had also passed on information detailing NSA attacks on China's prestigious Tsinghua University, the hub of a major digital network from which data on millions of Chinese citizens could be harvested.

As Snowden made his latest disclosures, the US issued an extradition request to Hong Kong and piled pressure on the territory to respond swiftly. "If Hong Kong doesn't act soon, it will complicate our bilateral relations and raise questions about Hong Kong's commitment to the rule of law," a senior Obama administration official said.

- more -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/22/edward-snowden-us-china

Snowden plans more leaks...will let foreign press decide if leaks endanger Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023084875


China threatens death penalty for serious polluters
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/19/us-china-pollution-idUSBRE95I10D20130619

A rare look at China's death row

A death row prisoner in the prison in the city of Wuhan in 2003 gets red nail polish to match outfit. The following series of photos were allegedly taken across two days, and offer a rare look at death row in China, which is believed to by far execute more prisoners annually than any other country.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-202_162-10010534.html

China: ‘Benefit the Masses’ Campaign Surveilling Tibetans

(New York) – The Chinese government, under the rationale of a campaign to improve rural living standards, has sent more than 20,000 officials and communist party cadres to Tibetan villages to undertake intrusive surveillance of people, carry out widespread political re-education, and establish partisan security units, said Human Rights Watch today. These tactics discriminate against those perceived as potentially disloyal, and restrict their freedom of religion and opinion.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/06/18/china-benefit-masses-campaign-surveilling-tibetans

[polichick]

23. You think the private contractors the gov't has employed

to collect data haven't provided it to others? American corporations have one purpose: profits.

As I said to you earlier, Snowden is the least of our worries. In fact, he's just a distraction. As a citizen I'm more concerned that "our" government thinks it's cool to let private companies collect data on us.


Edit: typo

[ProSense]

30. What does that have to do with being a 'lawless, rogue empire'? n/t

[polichick]

37. I was responding to your worries about Snowden and China...

of course.

[Thinkingabout]

40. WTH would you do with all the data? You should be concerned about Snowden delivering this info

to whomever he wants to do. You would not have any use of this information unless you think you are a security analyst or an employee of a the communications company. Are you either?

[polichick]

45. My point is, why worry about this one guy when the gov't has allowed...

private corporations (that exist only to make profits) to collect sensitive data?

Are we really to believe these companies won't sell info if they can obtain profits?

[Thinkingabout]

51. You stated you wanted the info provided to others.

[polichick]

52. Where?

[uhnope]

50. this. nt

[AZ Progressive]

14. Go and educate yourself on all the things the U.S. does and tell me with a straight face...

...that the U.S. is not a lawless, rogue empire in the eyes of people in the rest of the world.

[ProSense]

22. I guess

"Go and educate yourself on all the things the U.S. does and tell me with a straight face...that the U.S. is not a lawless, rogue empire in the eyes of people in the rest of the world."

...in your eyes that may be true, but I still say Iraq wasn't this President's doing. Greenwald is using the NSA to make these claims, and frankly, that's absurd.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3218825

Which Other Countries Are ‘In Bed’ With The NSA?

By Hayes Brown

With three of their partners’ signal intelligence collection programs revealed, it’s only a matter of time before all eyes turn to two of the most seemingly innocuous members of the world stage: Canada and New Zealand.

<...>

Australia has recently found itself the most recent target of Snowden’s cache of documents. Just days ago, the land down under’s participation in the NSA’s intelligence gathering was splashed across headlines. In the pages of Brazil’s O Globo newspaper, Glenn Greenwald — one journalist who originally received the NSA documents from Snowden — catalogued the existence of a series of four NSA listening stations throughout Australia.

What the United States, United Kingdom, and Australia all have in common is joint membership in an organization known colloquially as “The Five Eyes.” In a 1943 agreement — not even officially acknowledged until 2005 and declassified in 2010 — the U.S. and Britain agreed to share signal intelligence between themselves and the Dominions of Canada, New Zealand, and Australia. Under the terms of the pact, formally known as the UKUSA Agreement, electronic information collected in the course of espionage can be passed freely among themselves, circumventing the normal controls against foreign sharing that intelligence usually possesses.

For those keeping track, that still leaves two of the Five Eyes’ participation remaining relatively concealed or at least not the focus of a leak. Thus far, the Communications Security Establishment Canada (CSEC) and New Zealand’s Government Communications Security Bureau have managed to avoid major scrutiny or revelations about the programs that they operate. Given the new interest in revealing legal cooperation in intelligence sharing, however, it’s not hard to guess that they might be next.

- more -

http://thinkprogress.org/security/2013/07/10/2276191/snowden-five-eyes/

[Progressive dog]

42. The US is not a lawless rogue empire in the

eyes of the people in the rest of the world.

[NuclearDem]

71. I'm sure the people of Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, Nicaragua, Iran...

Guatemala, Honduras, and Chile would take umbrage to that statement.

[Progressive dog]

97. Do you have a poll from any of those places?

(from Merriam-Webster online) Umbrage-a feeling of pique or resentment at some often fancied slight or insult

BTW As an American, I don't think it's necessary to poll the world on American law enforcement.
You apparently didn't understand this, I really don't care what these people think about the USA's right to have it's own laws. They don't live here, they have their own laws, they have fewer civil rights than we do, most of them far far viewer.

[NuclearDem]

99. I think they're entitled to some opinion on the matter

Especially when our lax laws and wildly-expanded executive powers are responsible for indefinitely imprisoning their relatives (if not annihilating them along with the rest of their villages), destabilizing entire regions, propping up their abusive dictators and/or funding militia groups to destabilize or overthrow their governments.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/161201/leadership-earning-lower-marks-worldwide.aspx

[Progressive dog]

100. I don't, I'm an American, they give me no say

in their treatment of women, in their merger of religion with government. they can stay the hell out of our affairs.

[NuclearDem]

101. That would be fine, if "our affairs" weren't becoming theirs too

That's what happens when you bomb all over the globe. People tend to form opinions, especially if one of those places being bombed is their country. And if we don't acknowledge it, we deal with the same blowback again and again.

[Progressive dog]

102. When was the last time we bombed Nicaragua, Iran etc.

Should we have allowed the Japanese a say on whether we would continue to supply war materials to them, in 1941? Should we have let the Soviets a say on whether we would supply Berlin in 1949?
Should we have allowed North Korea a say on whether we would support South Korea against the invasion?
They can have any opinion they want, but they still have no say here.
They don't live here.

[NuclearDem]

103. We funded right-wing rape squads in Nicaragua flagrantly against the law

And the overthrow of the democratically-elected Iranian government in 1953 gave us the 1979 revolution and the Iran we know today.

The examples you list there are cases of the US responding to imperial expansions of foreign powers and brutal occupations of conquered territories. The examples I listed are cases of the US responding to either democratic election of leaders the US didn't like, the nonsense axiom of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", and failed policies of the War on Terror.

Let me be clear: I'm not saying other countries should have a vote in our government or dictate policy. What I am saying is that our failure to understand or even acknowledge what our foreign policy does to the people of these countries always comes back to bite us later. Even if the threat of blowback isn't enough to discourage it, a lot of what we're doing is morally repugnant.

[Progressive dog]

104. I'm an American, the government is elected by American citizens

that government should respond only to the opinions of Americans. Just like every one else, they can sometimes be wrong but that is the way government works.
If you are not an American, you should have absolutely no say in our government. That is what nation states are and have always been. I don't think our government should roll over for the extreme theocratic Iranian regime because of stuff that happened 60 years ago.

I am not talking about delusions. I am not spouting irrational thoughts. I am looking at the reality of what our government is doing at our borders, in our airports and with regard to our communications. I am not the paranoid one. The folks in D.C. who put these programs in place are the irrational ones, the people with paranoia.

It's not the folks in DC, it was their democratically elected representatives. Our government has a right and a duty to control our borders. Our government has a duty to provide for our security, the airport stuff may be too much, but it is not a violation of anyone's rights.

[NuclearDem]

105. Again, I never said anyone but Americans should have any say in the US government

The point I was trying to make is that the US can't simply ignore the opinions of the people across the world directly affected by its policies. If we don't try to understand the consequences of our actions overseas, we invite disaster here at home.

Funding Islamic rebels against an unpopular dictatorship in the 1980s gave us the core of al-Qaeda. We're now doing the same thing in Syria. Yemeni and Pakistani villagers are being radicalized by the drone program. It's all going to come back to bite us if we refuse to understand their reaction.

[dkf]

9. Blocking asylum, coercing allies to deny State Heads use of their airspace, secret courts and laws..

Crazy stuff.

[Ava]

11. exactly n/t

[Major Hogwash]

39. Shooting down their planes, taking away popsickles, canceling their reservations at Olive Garden

Wait, they don't need reservations at Olive Garden!!
What the hell is going on here??
The evil, rogue, lawless Obama administration is doing something evil, rogue, and lawless!!

[dkf]

47. Please be serious. This is no joke and no laughing matter.

[Major Hogwash]

55. Tell that to your new hero Greenwald!!

He has become the biggest joke since the football player whose imaginary girlfriend died!!

[NuclearDem]

57. You really have nothing constructive to add, do you?

[Major Hogwash]

58. Here?

[NuclearDem]

59. I'll take that as a no.

[Major Hogwash]

60. DUzy!!

That's right, muthafuckas, I'm nominating my own posts for DUzys!!

[burnodo]

91. Just means you're easily self-satisfied

[phleshdef]

98. LULZ. Thats wonderful.

[treestar]

74. Hmmm

Blocking asylum - our diplomats or VPs can talk to other countries - those other countries can still do what they want - are you against free speech if it does not tend to what you want?

Coercing allies . . prove it. With something more than "it must have been that way because that would justify my preconceptions."

There are no secret courts. We know there's a court and we know why it operates the way it does.

[dkf]

80. Wow. Deluded.

Nothing to see here...or ever...

[treestar]

82. You're the one suffering delusions

The plane story shows you have no desire to be objective.

[dkf]

88. So no problem with Latin American countries and Spain etal?

Nothing right? Not a single bit of contact from any US connected person to any of those countries with info that Snowden was on the plane? You believe that?

[kenny blankenship]

27. The OP is very new here, and couldn't be expected to know this place.

before running off at the mouth.

[polichick]

38. Hope we didn't run him off!

[kenny blankenship]

84. After the Vietnam War, and US sponsored Central American genocides in 80s-90s, and then Iraq

it's just kind of redundant.

[polichick]

90. Good point - it's amazing how many people you can fool...

with a whole bunch of flag waving!

[JoePhilly]

7. Better get my shoot'in iron before I head down to the saloon.

[eissa]

8. I wonder if people who truly believe we live in a rogue society

where secret police shadow your every move, and the threat of persecution looms over your every decision, would think if they lived in an actual "lawless and rogue" society. Try living in a country where the mukhabarat (secret police) can take your family, torture them in a manner that is horrifically unspeakable, confiscate every asset you have, and THEN murder you for simply saying you disagree with the dictator. And please don't anyone say that we are no better than that. With all of our problems -- and we have many -- we are no where close to anything remotely resembling such a society. Man, first world problems

[polichick]

17. Not society, "empire" - please see #12

[eissa]

26. Semantics

No one here believes in American exceptionalism, I certainly don't. The issues you outlined in your post upthread are more than valid, and I really felt the Occupy movement was a starting point in addressing those issues. However unjust our economic-based system is, to refer to us as "rogue and lawless" is ridiculous.

[polichick]

33. "Rogue and lawless" is an accurate description for the list in #12...

As I said, not for the people.

[Ava]

10. "It's obvious Greenwald loathes this country and our president"

How so? Being critical of the U.S. and it's policies and actions now equates with "loathing."
I also don't seeing him saying anything that's very outlandish. The U.S. has tried to prevent Snowden from moving, and Snowden likely is smart enough to keep his data secure. Not sure what's so outlandish here.

[uhnope]

13. because "lawless" and "rogue" are propaganda terms, not mere criticism

Lawless is Syria. Rogue is North Korea.

[flamingdem]

18. Yes, and the Bolivia incident was framed as the US breaking the law

before the facts were even laid out.

It's part of the meme. Gee, hard to tell left from right sometimes when it comes to attacking the USA today.

[Thinkingabout]

43. What law was broken?

[dkf]

49. International law regarding passage of heads of state.

[Thinkingabout]

53. Who did this?

[treestar]

76. There is no proof of that

Yet you expect us to swallow that opinion whole. Ridiculous.

[eissa]

20. I don't know any country

rogue, democratic, or otherwise, that would react kindly to someone who ran off with laptops filled with stolen classified information. Just because certain groups consider anyone who reveals any classified information to be "heroic" doesn't mean that countries are not entitled to enforce their own laws when it comes to exposing classified information, and possible espionage. The US owes Snowden nothing. We have every right to extradite him the same as any other criminal. He's not above the law.

[Ava]

75. I agree with you

However the U.S. hasn't handled this situation well, and we haven't exactly used legal means in our attempts to arrest him. Regardless, my original point was simply that I don't understand how Greenwald has shown a "loathing" towards the country (that seems a gross exaggeration to me). I also suggested that Snowden probably is capable and smart enough to keep the data that he made off with secure. That's not me saying he's in either the right or the wrong, just responding to a point in the original post.

[Major Hogwash]

48. WWAD?

What Would Ava Do??

Well, I doubt that you'd steal computers from the NSA and then take off to go to Hong Kong, and then bounce on over to Russia and live in their transit area for weeks on end.

I don't think you should attribute qualities to Snowden that you don't know he has. Such as being smart enough to keep his data secure, and such as having maps to know where he is going, and such as going to countries that aren't particularly fond of America, and such as having a job offer when he got there, and such as telling everyone he thinks that his shit doesn't stink, and such as . . .

[Ava]

72. I just tend to think that if he was smart enough

to access the data, copy it, and store it securely and have time to get out of dodge before the U.S. government found out/began making moves to arrest him, surely he's smart enough to secure that data from others.

Personally, I'm iffy on the whole Snowden thing and reserve judgement about him until I learn more about him and his motives and the bigger information that he supposedly has. However, I do think the U.S. has handled this whole situation terribly (the grounded plane being a prime example). I also don't see how Greenwald has shown a "loathing" towards the U.S.. That's all.

Also, hi! Long time no see!

[AZ Progressive]

15. HOW DARE Greenwald and Snowden upset the powers that be!

We must continue to propagandize DUers to forget about what he's said!

[Cali_Democrat]

19. Greenwald is a very objective journalist.

He simply reports the facts and information without letting his opinions get in the way.

[uhnope]

24. I take it you have a very dry or ironic sense of humor. nt

[MADem]

36. And I'm an ASTRONAUT!

I said it, ergo it is true.

[flamingdem]

21. Helpful primer on the NSA for everyone

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101668225

A Surveillance Primer: What Exactly Are We Talking About Regarding the NSA?
By Bob Cesca of the Daily Banter

One of the reasons why there’s so much hysterical blindness in reaction to NSA “bombshells” issued by Edward Snowden is that very few reporters and writers have adequately explained what’s going on.

So I’d like to take some time to explain in general terms the NSA program that everyone is screaming about.

By the way, I fully realize that the paranoid pro-Snowden crowd will insist that I’m lying or shilling for the government or both. Clearly there’s no way to respond to conspiracy theories other than to demand hard evidence. Beyond that, I can only concur with Charles Johnson who tweeted that many of the pro-Snowden people are deliberately misunderstanding what’s going on to suit their own agenda. I don’t intend to convince any of those people as they’re nestled within their own epistemic cocoons. But I think the summary below will be helpful to the rest of us who aren’t necessarily surveillance experts.

Let’s begin by defining metadata.

http://thedailybanter.com/2013/07/a-stellar-wind-primer-what-exactly-are-we-talking-about-regarding-the-nsa/

[QC]

25. He needs to go back to Russia!

[aquart]

29. Gosh. There are rules for empires?

Drink tea with the pinky up?

Maybe he needs to research empires.

[AllINeedIsCoffee]

31. I'm not a "love it or leave it" patriot that chants "USA! USA!"

And in instances when disrespectful cretins like this speak, it's rather unfortunate that I'm not.

[Douglas Carpenter]

32. Greenwald is bad an he hates America. Snowden is ever worse and hates America even more

-- As a former President once said so eloquently, "You are either with us or you are with the terrorist."

And I say, "If you criticize the government - the terrorist have already won."

[MADem]

34. He's not a journalist. He's an advocate, and he isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, either.

He hasn't figured out yet that Assange has eaten his lunch--he's still trying to make like he's part of the story. All he did was con the Guardian into providing the launch platform; then Assange pushed him off the stage into the orchestra pit, where GG continues to flail around pretending that he's got the spotlight.

I think even a moron would know better than to "insist" that Snowden "gave no information of any kind..." since we already KNOW that he did just that.

Is he suggesting that Eddie's got the boogie in his butt, or he swallowed the goods and craps them out every night, only to repeat the process? I mean, come on. The Russkies, especially, are PROS at this shit. Vladimir Pootie Poot wasn't a boy scout leader before he decided to take, and keep, the helm in Russia.

Even if Eddie kept the stuff around his neck, it's a simple matter for the Russians to knock his ass out but good while he's sleeping, remove/copy/replace the material, and go merrily on their way.

The only way he can be sure that no one has taken anything is if he has NOTHING. And we already know that to not be the case.

[railsback]

41. He's been Glenn Beck-ie from the start

Yet he'll still have his apologists.

[img][/img]

[Luminous Animal]

44. He never claimed to be an objective journalist. He claims to be a journalist with an opinion.

And he says that he will not abandon his source.

[snooper2]

46. How many dongles can you fit in your ....

[NuclearDem]

54. Yeah, I'd say so

Overthrowing democratically-elected governments across the world to serve business interests, wars of aggression, holding and torturing people without trial, targeted assassinations, and refusal to sign several major environmental, humanitarian, and military treaties.

Sounds pretty rogue and lawless to me.

[frylock]

70. but but but.... north korea!!1

[BlueCheese]

56. Greenwald has never claimed that he was objective, as far as I know.

Journalists don't have to be objective. The people who write for the Nation and the Weekly Standard are journalists, and nobody would think they're objective.

[Laelth]

61. Sadly, Greewald's characterization of the U.S. rings true to many ears.

And not just mine. I wish it were not so, but we have to admit that it is. As Putin said, "The U.S. has lost its mind over this Snowden guy."

-Laelth

[cpwm17]

62. William Blum makes a good case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_State:_A_Guide_to_the_World's_Only_Superpower

It's a disturbing picture for anyone with a soul.

[CakeGrrl]

63. But Greenwald always tells the truth - only the most noble intentions, right?

[kenny blankenship]

64. Why is he saying that NOW?

It's something we've all known about for a long time - and should have guessed was going on even if we were never officially told!

[SidDithers]

65. Greenwald. LOL...nt

Sid

[morningfog]

93. That snark really lacks bite when his stories

have the US looking afool.

[Cha]

69. Greenwald is a specialist.. he knows what propaganda will excite

his acolytes and bring them to a frothing frenzy.

"..lawless and rogue".. Stupid. But, that's what he does.

[CakeGrrl]

85. Yes, all the right buzzwords to

ignite the "hero" narrative.

He knows his marks and played them well.

[treestar]

73. We actually do have laws

And apply them to whoever violates them.

[NuclearDem]

77. Did I miss a sarcasm tag somewhere?

Because last I knew, the bankers were still out making money, Bush was living it up in Texas, and Cheney, Rummy, and Yoo were out on the speaker circuit.

[treestar]

78. All or nothing is your standard?

So we should just shut down all of the prosecutors' offices, then.

[NuclearDem]

79. No, I would prefer to see the law applied equally across the board

You commit a crime, you stand trial for it.

Right now, we've got draconian sentences being handed down on hacktivists, protestors, and minorities while the rich and powerful get off with a slap on the wrist, if even that.

[Ava]

89. h/t

[Californeeway]

81. how does an empire go rogue?

does not the term "empire" imply a power so great it defines it's own set of rules. What is the governing body an empire goes rogue from?

are not all empires by nature rogues?

a lot of flowery speech that amounts to nothing of meaning.

[bobduca]

83. Read the whole article

your intro notwithstanding others might also draw other conclusions from this Reuters article.

But nice use of exerpting and re-titling!

[Cleita]

87. So many attacks on the man here. Attack what you believe is not the truth if you

have any sources to back it up other than making a lot of assumptions about what could have happened and what you think he's done. Character assassinations only make you look like you don't have a whole lot of facts to fall back on. It makes you look like a propagandist rather than a person who wants to get to the truth.

[Scurrilous]

92. K & R

[JackRiddler]

94. Correct and journalistic: USA is lawless, rogue empire.

This correct description requires no feelings for or against it. You obviously can't deal with it, so you descend to rhetoric that mirrors that of the old Bush supporters (if you accurately called him a war criminal this could only be due to your "hatred" of the man).

[uhnope]

96. laughable. nt

[boilerbabe]

95. greenwald, as usual, is correct. nt