Tom Harding, engineer of the runaway train in Quebec, was involved in another derailment last year.

[applegrove]

CBC News Network

[cali]

1. I am NOT willing to dump the blame on Harding.

Burkholdt the vile pig of a chariman, is trying to do just that. It's Burkholdt's company policies that put only ONE man on that train with 79 tankers from S. Dakota to New Brunswick.

Oh, don't get me going.

[applegrove]

2. They are saying the whole rail industry will have to be reregulated after this. Then again

I might be getting this from Canadian tv which is more liberal than what could get through the congress. I agree the corporation will be looking for a scapegoat. But it is germane to the whole discussion. I mean why was he allowed to run a train alone when he had already been involved in one derailment? That takes it back to the management too.

[cali]

6. Read this:

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2013/07/10/lacmgantic_train_crash_proves_engineers_shouldnt_work_alone_mallick.html

One man on these trains is the industry standard in both Canada and the U.S. It's fucking insane

[applegrove]

9. I hope this results in regulation in both Canada and the USA. Then again this story was

not on the news in the USA much because of the Asiana air crash. I posted an article that talked about how new regulations helped save lives in the Asiana crash if you are interested. Here it is:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023220770

[TheCowsCameHome]

12. I don't know how many US trains run with one man

I think two is still the standard here on road trains.

That remote control thing is pure bullshit, though.

[Brickbat]

15. Many shortlines run with one, and the Class 1s push it every contract negotiation.

[TheCowsCameHome]

30. Amtrak runs with one man in the cab.

Even the Acela.

I don't think major freight roads do, not that they wouldn't like to.

Short lines pretty much do as they please, without union contracts to deal with.

[cali]

18. I thought that I read, in one of the stories about this tragedy

that one man is also the industry standard in the U.S now. It's sure as shit the standard on MM&A which runs trains throughout the Northeast.

[TheCowsCameHome]

3. Wasn't the engineer in for rest in a hotel?

You know, off duty and all that. Apparently others may have been playing with the train.

And yes, the one-man crew thing stinks to high heaven on all counts.

[applegrove]

4. Apparently he claims he set multiple hand brakes on the tanker cars. That seems impossible. It looks

like when the firemen turned off the engine that was on fire when it was parked for the night at Nantes, so that it was no longer a danger, the multiple hand brakes should have kept the train immobile. But it didn't. So they are doubting the engineer right now. All so sad.

[cali]

7. why does it seem impssible? There could have been tampering. the cops

sure haven't ruled that out.

[applegrove]

8. I think they have ruled out terrorism. They are investigating criminal negligence.

[cali]

13. tampering doesn't neccessarily mean terrorism and they have NOT ruled that out

Police: Evidence criminal act may have led to Canada train crash

Canadian authorities have found evidence that a criminal act may have led to a train crash in Lac-Megantic, Quebec, that killed at least 15 people, provincial police Capt. Michel Forget said Tuesday.

There have been many questions about the crash and explosion that wiped out a swath of the town 130 miles east of Montreal. As of Tuesday evening, 35 people were still missing, Forget said.

Authorities offered no further details about the case but said it was not caused by terrorism.

"I will not speculate on the elements that we have recovered," Forget told reporters.

<snip>

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/09/world/americas/canada-runaway-train

I too have been following this on CBC which I get on basic cable as I live in VT near the Quebec border.

[applegrove]

19. Okay. Criminal but "not terrorism" means criminal negligence to me but I could be wrong.

[TheCowsCameHome]

10. The investigation will show how many cars had handbrakes applied, along with other valuable data.

In the meantime, if he says he applied (x) number of brakes, I believe him.

[A HERETIC I AM]

11. Fireman?

Really? CN employs locomotive firemen?


Who'd a thunk it?

[TheCowsCameHome]

14. This wreck certainly demanded the services of firemen

but not the locomotive variety..............

[applegrove]

16. The train was parked a few kilometers for Lac Megantic in a town called Nantes. A fire broke

out in the engine while it was in Nantes with the engineer asleep. Firemen came and put it out. They were in contact with train officials somehow, but not the engineer I think. They turned off the engine that had been on fire. That would release the airbrakes of that engine slowly. They left. The train was on a slope. Someone saw it moving in the dark a little while later. It rolled all the way to Lac Megantic and derailed. That is what I can gather from what has been said so far.

[Brickbat]

20. Turning off the engine does not release the airbrakes. The default is braking; you need air pressure

to release the brake.

[applegrove]

22. Well that leaves me to wonder. I so don't want it to be something nefarious.

[Brickbat]

24. I don't want it to be operator error.

[applegrove]

26. Human error is easier to take somehow. They say that malicious man made disasters

are harder to deal with. Though harder that what these families are going through and will go through in the future is hell, hell, hell already.

[A HERETIC I AM]

25. Exactly

Spring applied, air released, just like on a tractor trailer.

[Niceguy1]

27. not true

No spring brakes....lossnof air results in the brakes releasing.

[TheCowsCameHome]

28. And when the air supply is depleted because of compressors not working?

Bye, bye train.

That's the reason for hand brakes in the first place.

Air bleeds off eventually, and when that happens the cars are free to roll.

[MicaelS]

32. Yes, it could release the brakes.

There is no reserve emergency braking system for locomotives like on train cars. That is why when you shut down the engine on a locomotives, you set handbrakes on each locomotive, since the air can bleed off the locomotive independent brakes.

According to the Toronto Star article, there were 5 locomotives, and 72 cars. Four of the locomotives were shut down, and that left one running to keep air on the train. If that ONE was shut down by fireman, AND if only the locomotive independent brakes were set, along with only a few handbrakes, (no train line air brakes), then there were no locomotives air compressors running to supply air to the train and locomotive independent brakes. At that point, the locomotive independent brakes could have bled down to the point where they released. Then, because the number of handbrakes on the train cars was insufficient to hold the train, then it could have rolled away.

I back that up 17 years experience as a trainman and conductor on the MKT and UP RRs.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/07/08/lacmegantic_train_explosion_5_things_we_know_5_things_we_dont_know.html

[cali]

23. There was also someone from MM&A who was on the scene with the firemen

<snip>

he unexplained fire, which led Nantes firemen to shut down the train’s engine. The intervention of MM&A employees, who were alerted and called on site after the fire broke out, according to the Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) investigators, who contradicted earlier MM&A statements.

<snip>

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/the-blame-game-is-in-full-swing-in-the-lac-megantic-tragedy/article13103257/

[Brickbat]

17. Mr. Brickbat works with a guy who still has fireman's rights.

[cali]

21. There was a fire on the engine and the Nantes fire department

came and put it out.

At least I think that's what you mean when you say "firemen".

[Brickbat]

5. Almost every engineer is involved in some kind of derailment every year.

Not every derailment makes it on the news -- or even to the trainmaster's desk. I'd like to know the details.

[cali]

29. Tom Harding is the scapegoat and some DUers are ignorant of that

[TheCowsCameHome]

31. That is probably true, on both counts.

Since he was the last one to actually handle the train, they'll be looking to nail him. A news clip this morning on WBZ-Boston said the MMA owner was blaming him for not securing the train properly.

[Brickbat]

33. It's shameful. Every Class 1 in North America is hoping this gets pinned on the engineer, so they

can continue to kick the issue of maintenance, training, work hours and common-sense safety rules right down the road.

[FarCenter]

34. It seems likely that MMA's policy was to not set handbrakes on the cars -- needs investigation

Soon after the event, Burkhardt came out and blamed the Nantes fire department for causing the runaway by shutting off the running engine. This, he said, caused the air brakes to release and the train to run away.

Therefore, it seems likely that policy within MMA was to not set enough handbrakes on cars to prevent a runaway, but instead to depend on air brakes fed by a running engine. Setting the handbrakes on a large number of cars involves time and labor, which MMA appeared to want to save by cutting corners.

Also, setting handbrakes on cars seems to be more arduous and time consuming than setting the handbrakes on the cars. Setting derailers also is work, especially for one man.

Note that the company's written regulations and the policy informally communicated by management can be two different things, so the RCMP need to intervew MMA employees to get to what the actual mandate by management was, and not just depend on company documents.

[TheCowsCameHome]

35. One inexpensive bit of prevention was missing here

Apparently this is a regular practice with the MMA railroad, where loaded trains of this length are tied down for a period of time on a grade and the crew goes to a nearby hotel for rest.

If there were track derails installed at points that the train would fit between, it would take only minutes to set them in place after the train stopped. If the train did get free for whatever reason, it would roll only a matter of feet and plunk harmlessly onto the ground with minimal damage to anything but a few ties and wheelsets.

[cali]

36. I stand with Tom Harding who is being smeared by the shit stain chairman of Rail World

It was a very minor incident. Harding has an excellent record.