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I am glad that a Democratic government bombs in a more kinder and gentler manner (Original Post) Luminous Animal Jul 2013 OP
You forgot the sarcasm emoticon. Cleita Jul 2013 #1
I am postitive that the citizens of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, and Somalia are thanking Obama Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #3
Wondering where the anti-war left is. Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #2
War is always terrible. Looking forward to living in a country during peacetime. JaneyVee Jul 2013 #4
What are you doing to demand it? Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #5
I can't reveal at this time. JaneyVee Jul 2013 #7
I'm sure the recipients of our drones would like that too. Even if they don't hurt as much sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #6
I wouldn't know. I've never been droned. JaneyVee Jul 2013 #8
Me neither, but I have been reading the reports on the aftermath of drone strikes for nearly sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #10
+1 ConcernedCanuk Jul 2013 #50
Or the threat of being droned. Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #18
If you live in the US you don't live in a country that lives with Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #9
Ok. JaneyVee Jul 2013 #14
And the people who did that are all dead now. So it's over. Ken Burch Jul 2013 #39
+1 treestar Jul 2013 #61
They also destroy the Bill of Rights in a hipper, cooler way villager Jul 2013 #11
For what it's worth... cherokeeprogressive Jul 2013 #12
It was California in the 80's...what did you guys WANT to write? "SURF'S UP!"? "COWABUNGA, DUDE!"? Ken Burch Jul 2013 #42
There is a difference, a meaningful one Californeeway Jul 2013 #13
Indeed. Life is better living in constant fear of being killed that actually being killed! Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #20
How would you choose to deal with terrorism? Californeeway Jul 2013 #29
Certainly not terrorizing communities, towns, and cities. Subjectinng them to constant fear. Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #31
exactly the non answer I expected.. Californeeway Jul 2013 #32
The best way to deal with terrorism Promethean Jul 2013 #41
Drain the swamp TiberiusB Jul 2013 #44
At least someone took a shot at an honest answer Californeeway Jul 2013 #47
Mohammad Pahlavi and Augusto Pinochet called Fumesucker Jul 2013 #54
Che Guavera used to say that if the American people knew Californeeway Jul 2013 #55
The business of America is bidness Fumesucker Jul 2013 #60
Lennon and pot brownies Skittles Jul 2013 #36
I'm talking a little shit because someone talked some shit to me Californeeway Jul 2013 #38
riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight Skittles Jul 2013 #40
Not this way. this way creates more terrorists than it kills, almost certainly cali Jul 2013 #58
Save your typings, they dream of a warless world, and Amonester Jul 2013 #22
Oh those silly dreamers who do nothing but dream. Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #28
Not taking the bait. Amonester Jul 2013 #30
I dream too, then I wake up and do concrete things to accomplish my dreams Californeeway Jul 2013 #34
Lesser of Two Evils strikes again! Taft_Bathtub Jul 2013 #33
It's a sad reality of life, that there are only so many options in any particular situation Californeeway Jul 2013 #35
Option 5) Stop engaging in terrorism Taft_Bathtub Jul 2013 #49
drones aren't actually stopping terrorism. Ken Burch Jul 2013 #43
given you noticed Smedley Butler Californeeway Jul 2013 #52
that's it? just a snappy one liner? maybe your body was hungry Pretzel_Warrior Jul 2013 #15
Hehe! I totally DID think I was on Facebook! Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #19
K&R MotherPetrie Jul 2013 #16
Some one said it well a good while back Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #17
The numbers are dropping RobertEarl Jul 2013 #21
Oh sure. Life is much better for people who have drones over their heads. Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #23
War is hell RobertEarl Jul 2013 #25
Are you referring to FDR and Truman? Scurrilous Jul 2013 #24
No. I am referring to the life that I live in and the anti-war life that I am living... Luminous Animal Jul 2013 #26
Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you... RobertEarl Jul 2013 #27
The civilian lives that are saved appreciate your mocking. great white snark Jul 2013 #37
This isn't a war (it's a business) TiberiusB Jul 2013 #45
it's the knife Chaco Dundee Jul 2013 #46
Right mick063 Jul 2013 #57
put up or, well you know the rest. cali Jul 2013 #59
Bush Sr invented the kinder gentler machine gun hand markiv Jul 2013 #48
Yep. That's progress. As in progressive. War and bombing are now progressive values Zorra Jul 2013 #51
When a Democratic government drops bombs, Jamastiene Jul 2013 #53
I'm sorry you just realized the US isn't a pacifist paradise. nt geek tragedy Jul 2013 #56
Psst.. We spend as much on war and getting ready for war as the rest of the world combined Fumesucker Jul 2013 #62
Knew that, believe that should be dramatically changed, nt geek tragedy Jul 2013 #63

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
3. I am postitive that the citizens of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, and Somalia are thanking Obama
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 12:24 AM
Jul 2013

that the bombs that maim and kill them don't hurt near as much as a Romney bomb.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
6. I'm sure the recipients of our drones would like that too. Even if they don't hurt as much
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 12:30 AM
Jul 2013

as Bush drones.

They don't, right?

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
10. Me neither, but I have been reading the reports on the aftermath of drone strikes for nearly
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 12:42 AM
Jul 2013

a decade now. The children, blown to pieces, yes I know they are not American children, but for some reason that never mattered to me, mothers scrambling for body parts, sometimes in their grief, fighting over a foot or an arm, because they want SOMETHING to bury. We used to be outraged, or at least we said we were, over these drones. Robert Fisk I believe actually witnessed the aftermath of a drone strike. He wrote about it, but that was a Bush drone so maybe we should consider that. It was like reading about hell. A long time ago ... when Democrats opposed drones ..

I personally don't think it matters whether they are Democratic or Republican drones, but it's possible I need some reeducation on this topic.

RIP to all the victims of our drones. If I had my way you would all still be here, wearing your pretty dresses and looking forward to a brighter future. I tried, that's all I can offer, but we failed you.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
18. Or the threat of being droned.
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 01:05 AM
Jul 2013

I think about my life. Loving my husband and daughter. I am putting her to sleep and singing to her... "You are my sunshine, my only sunshine, you make me happ...

KABOOM

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
9. If you live in the US you don't live in a country that lives with
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 12:38 AM
Jul 2013

whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr whirr

KABOOM

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
39. And the people who did that are all dead now. So it's over.
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 03:06 AM
Jul 2013

And nothing those people did justifies anything we're doing to the living today. OK?

It's comparable to saying "Pearl Harbor" and expecting every to see that as justification for attacking Japan in 1953, for God's sakes.

"9/11" no longer automatically ends the discussion on the use of force.

And plenty of people who lost family or friends in the towers have spent the next decade speaking out AGAINST war.

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
12. For what it's worth...
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 12:43 AM
Jul 2013

I served in Naval Aviation during the 80's and when we were dropping bombs (for practice) on bushes in the California desert outside of El Centro, we weren't allowed to write messages in chalk on the bombs lest someone get offended.

Californeeway

(97 posts)
13. There is a difference, a meaningful one
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 12:43 AM
Jul 2013

A Republican president would invade the country with a few hundred thousand soldiers and in the process get a million or so innocent people killed along with a few thousand of our soldiers.

A Democratic president will use bombs from drones and get a few hundred innocent people killed and none of our soldiers killed.

Does is make the deaths of those killed by drones less tragic? no.

Is one infinitely better than the other option? yes. But only if you look at those other options with open and honest eyes.

There is a third option which seems popular with a lot of people here which is do nothing at all and allow global terror networks to operate with impunity. Terrorism after all is a completely made up propaganda device and there is no real threat -right?

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
20. Indeed. Life is better living in constant fear of being killed that actually being killed!
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 01:12 AM
Jul 2013

The Democratic way! Subjecting human beings to constant fear! Kinder and gentler!

Californeeway

(97 posts)
29. How would you choose to deal with terrorism?
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 01:41 AM
Jul 2013

I see three choices, all of which suck, but one that sucks less than the others.

so what would you choose to do?

btw, terrorist networks are killing and terrorizing innocent people all over the globe, so your choice to do nothing involves lots of people living in constant fear of dying or worse too. Sorry to knock you off your moral high horse there...
does your choice perchance involve sending care packages to the terrorists filled with John Lennon records and pot brownies?

It's so easy to rant and rave and get on your moral soap box and wag your finger and pretend like there are easy answers when you have no power or influence and non of your ideas will have to face the test of being put to practice.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
31. Certainly not terrorizing communities, towns, and cities. Subjectinng them to constant fear.
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 01:51 AM
Jul 2013

In fact, that tactic has been shown to create more "terrorists".

Californeeway

(97 posts)
32. exactly the non answer I expected..
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 01:58 AM
Jul 2013

so that's what you wouldn't do.....

but what would you choose to do?

The problem doesn't go away just because you don't want to deal with it.

If you want to lambaste someone for making a bad choice, it's sort of incumbent upon you to explain what that person should be doing instead...if you want to be taken seriously.

I'd even settle for an authentic attempt to lay out realistic options at this point.

Do you have any realistic options in mind? Or just fuck Obama and whatever choice Obama made sucks because he's not a real Liberal like me? Did you even think past that point?

I personally do think John Lennon records and pot brownies would go a far way.....

Promethean

(468 posts)
41. The best way to deal with terrorism
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 03:07 AM
Jul 2013

Is to leave people alone. Do you know why extremist Islamic groups target the U.S.? Because we have tons of military bases in their back yard and we use them, frequently. We keep a military base near Mecca and Medina, the two most important cities to the Muslim religion and we don't expect the followers of that religion to be upset? This isn't a new military base either, it predates the "War to Cause Terror". On top of that we have a history of constantly meddling in their governments and affairs. We brought it on ourselves and the best way to stop it entirely is to just leave them alone.

Californeeway

(97 posts)
47. At least someone took a shot at an honest answer
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 03:36 AM
Jul 2013

the two of you both. Answered a difficult question with a thoughtful answer

I wouldn't argue for two seconds that having military bases all over the Middle East doesn't cause people to hate us. I would argue that closing those bases would do wonders for our relations in that part of the world. Pulling support for dictators too.

But, while we are waiting for this grand disengagement to win over the people of the world so that they don't want to kill us all (I believe with time it could be done), there is still a ongoing security threat both to Americans and to random innocent people around the world that wont wait for the plan to come into place. I honestly think that most extremists would still hate us for supporting Democracy when clearly they want theocracy. So while the majority of people would come around, there would still be nuts to deal with.

I personally think that the long term answer is limiting corporate power here at home and spreading Democracy anywhere that we can. But that is long long term, what do we do for the next hundred years while we work on getting those things done?

People probably get the impression that I think drones are just hunky dory. I don't, but I don't see any other options that cause less suffering.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
54. Mohammad Pahlavi and Augusto Pinochet called
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 07:23 AM
Jul 2013

They wanted to thank the US for supporting Democracy in their countries.

Californeeway

(97 posts)
55. Che Guavera used to say that if the American people knew
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 07:45 AM
Jul 2013

what their government and corporations were doing to innocent people abroad, they would fight to change it. He was right. And things can change. And the American Empire can have a positive effect on the world if it wants to. Cynicism is only right about half the time.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
60. The business of America is bidness
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 09:46 AM
Jul 2013

And bidness does not care about having a positive effect on anything beyond the bottom line.

Californeeway

(97 posts)
38. I'm talking a little shit because someone talked some shit to me
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 03:04 AM
Jul 2013

I don't mean it as a knock on Lennon or pot brownies at all, just the opposite.

My point is that most Liberals don't begin to understand what motivates young people in the Arab world to become terrorists or what we could do to motivate them to choose peaceful means of expressing themselves.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
58. Not this way. this way creates more terrorists than it kills, almost certainly
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 08:14 AM
Jul 2013

Many experts say drone attacks harden the determination of "terrorists".

Do you know the different kinds of drone strikes? Do you know what a 'Signature Strike' is? Do you know what 'Double Tapping' is?

Do you understand the tribal affiliations in the villages of Northwest Pakistan? Do you know what Pakistan's position on drone attacks is?

Why do I suspect you don't?

You condemn ranting and raving- fine, but you're babbling about care packages is hardly raising the level of conversation here.

Our drone policy is not doing us any favors and sure as hell isn't doing the "collateral damage" any favors.

Practically speaking, there is NO EVIDENCE that our drone policy makes us safer from terrorist attacks. None.

Amonester

(11,541 posts)
22. Save your typings, they dream of a warless world, and
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 01:17 AM
Jul 2013

I don't blame them.

I dream of a warless world also, but I can face the reality that it won't come true anytime soon, since it never has come yet since at least a couple of hundred thousand years.

Taft_Bathtub

(224 posts)
33. Lesser of Two Evils strikes again!
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 02:19 AM
Jul 2013

I'd actually argue it's better to be invaded an occupied than live 3-4 years of round the clock buzzing overhead, scared that at any second you or your loved ones could be blown to pieces by a guy 7,000 miles away.

There are entire cities in Pakistan that are tortured nightly by the sound of drones circling overhead bombing weddings and funerals of "terrorists"

Californeeway

(97 posts)
35. It's a sad reality of life, that there are only so many options in any particular situation
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 02:47 AM
Jul 2013

And in most situations there are no optimum choices, just a choice between various shitty possibilities. Most of the time, all of your choices suck -that's just regular adult life, let alone the kind of fucked up catch-22 choices a president is handed.

there are 4 choices:

1) Invade Republican style and get millions killed.
2) Use drones and kill hundreds.
3) Do nothing and wait and see how many people the terrorists kill.
4) The mystery option that Liberals think Obama should be doing even though they have no clue what it is. Can someone tell me what this mystery option is, because no one will answer that question.

All of life is nothing but choosing the lesser of two evils or multiple evils. No one escapes because this is real life, which is brutal and unfair. It's so tiresome listening to people whine about the lesser of two evils. It will always be that way because the morally perfect hero/leader you're waiting for doesn't exist.

Taft_Bathtub

(224 posts)
49. Option 5) Stop engaging in terrorism
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 03:59 AM
Jul 2013

Stop supporting dictatorships. Stop invading countries for their oil. Stop supporting rightwing deathsquads whenever someone nationalizes an American company.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
43. drones aren't actually stopping terrorism.
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 03:13 AM
Jul 2013

Most of the people killed in the drone strikes weren't terrorists and would never have BECOME terrorists. Most were innocent bystanders who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It is possible, though, and even likely, in some cases, that the relatives and friends of those killed by the drones will choose terrorism as their path in life, when they'd have done no such thing if we'd just stayed the hell away and Bnot killed the people they loved.

And really, there's little else we can do in the Middle East anymore anyway, so why bother?

The region belongs to the Arabs and Muslims and we have no right to have any role in its history at all.

And Smedley Butler(your avatar)would likely see less honorable reasons for our continued presence in that part of the world. Reread his "I was a Ganster for Capitalism" testimony and you'll know what I mean.

Californeeway

(97 posts)
52. given you noticed Smedley Butler
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 04:53 AM
Jul 2013

would you believe that in my mind the 9/11 was the Business Plot 2.0?

That the plan was to scare the living shit out of everyone and start an series of unwinnable wars in distant lands full of people who already hate us for the last hundred years of bullshit our corporations have pulled there.

Bog the the country down in war, and no matter how big public support is for ending the war, we just can't because Osama is still out there and there are legit terrorists, trained by own own CIA in espionage and terrorism who will continue to commit horrific acts of violence that will undermines calls for ending the war.

Then you crash the economy and leave people so fucking desperate to survive they can barely pay attention to the police state being built before their eyes.

The truth is that they already got 90% of what they want with the Patriot Act. All the sudden, Bush is creating all these new highly secretive security programs -no one questions anything they are so fucking scared.

Basically they are making the ring to rule all rings: a super-powerful military with total access to every last bit of electronic communication in the world -all they need now is for a man/woman weak and pliable enough to control to win the presidency and hand power over to them. Sarah Palin anyone?

Take our national seal, with the unfinished Masonic pyramid and the 'eye of Providence' a top. Another name for the eye is the eye of Horus, or THE ALL-SEEING eye of Horus. Do you get the feeling that this ultimate surveillance state has been in the works a long time?

Before we know it, we are walking around with tracking devices implanted in our skin and watching dissidents being trucked off to FEMA camps and yeah that would have sounded crazy a couple of weeks ago, but people thought I was a nut when I said the government was spying on their phones and computers 6-7 years ago.

This is why I don't believe that Obama is in on it or one of them, because if he was, we would have found an excuse to stay in Iraq and troops wouldn't be getting pulled out of Afghanistan right now and Obama would have rushed into war with Syria as opposed to the sort of tepid policy he is following now. And there is no way on Earth that Osama Bin Laden would be dead, he was the Fascist's best friends: terrifying the fuck out of people and justifying the security apparatus.

\ Our only hope of dismantling this potential police state is to repeal the Patriot Act and the open ended authorization for war. But how do we do that? It will more or less impossible to do it without convincing the public that the vast majority of terrorist networks are disrupted, terrorists killed and their threat reduced so that there is no longer and need or excuse to have a such a vast security apparatus.

We do that by ostentatiously killing as many terrorists over seas as possible and then declaring their threat mitigated and the war on terror over. Then you can say the threat is over, or much less now, we don't need all this security apparatus, let's ditch it. But to do this, you have to actually kill a lot of terrorist to make the sale -how many? not sure, but enough to convince people that the threat no longer necessitates the police state BS. I think this is what Obama is trying to do. I think it is what I would do if I were in his place. It's security theater. But if it is effective, it makes room to repeal the Patriot Act which basically is the source of their power. Without that everything else is useless.

I totally invite you to critique my theory. I don't mean to say I am certain this is what is going on, but I've paid pretty close attention and find a lot of anecdotal evidence here and there to support it.

But the reason I find it easier to support Obama than others do is that I understand he is wrestling with dark, dark forces right now and they will do everything possible to confuse people about what he is doing and why. But whether you like or not, he's the only person standing in the way of American becoming a police state.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
15. that's it? just a snappy one liner? maybe your body was hungry
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 12:46 AM
Jul 2013

and you misinterpreted it as a sudden urge to post inane non sequiter in a Democratic discussion forum.

maybe you thought you were on your Facebook account and this was your hourly status update.

Mojorabbit

(16,020 posts)
17. Some one said it well a good while back
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 01:03 AM
Jul 2013

We got a thousand points of light
For the homeless man
We got a kinder, gentler,
Machine gun hand
Neil Young

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
21. The numbers are dropping
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 01:15 AM
Jul 2013

Obama even had a comment about us being more careful with drones. He heard us, I like to think.

What we have to do is bring home our troops. And that is slowly happening. Not fast enough, but .....

There is a mountain of difference between Obama and McCain or Rmoney. But still, I get your point. I wish we never started this crap.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
23. Oh sure. Life is much better for people who have drones over their heads.
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 01:28 AM
Jul 2013

Should I go to a family reunion? Should I go to a wedding? Should I go to a funeral? Should I take a walk through the public square on a beautiful evening? Should I go buy food for the family? Should I go eat out for dinner?

KABOOM!

All these places have been droned and killed innocent people.

Kinder and gentler indeed.

Scurrilous

(38,687 posts)
24. Are you referring to FDR and Truman?
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 01:34 AM
Jul 2013

Perhaps their firebombing of Tokyo? Or the dropping of A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? The deliberate killing of hundreds of thousands of civilians? That wasn't very kind or gentle.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
26. No. I am referring to the life that I live in and the anti-war life that I am living...
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 01:37 AM
Jul 2013

in the here and now.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
27. Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you...
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 01:39 AM
Jul 2013

Vietnam. Kosovo, too.

War is hell. Resist war. Do not join up to make war.

If only there were enough of us?

TiberiusB

(487 posts)
45. This isn't a war (it's a business)
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 03:25 AM
Jul 2013

War can only be declared by Congress and the U.S. hasn't technically fought a war since WWII. The framing of this nonsense about terrorism being a "war" serves one purpose, to squelch debate and justify any response or expense. Much like the "war" on drugs.

 

mick063

(2,424 posts)
57. Right
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 08:10 AM
Jul 2013

World austerity due to bank thievery.

You are right, war could be waged more intelligently.

Drones are target at the wrong terrorists.

Properly used, I would buy your "civilian lives saved" bullshit.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
59. put up or, well you know the rest.
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 08:17 AM
Jul 2013

There is NO evidence at all that drone attacks save civilian lives in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, or anywhere else that they've been employed.

None.

 

markiv

(1,489 posts)
48. Bush Sr invented the kinder gentler machine gun hand
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 03:38 AM
Jul 2013

without the machine gun hand, we would have never extended it to bombs

credit where credit is due

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
51. Yep. That's progress. As in progressive. War and bombing are now progressive values
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 04:45 AM
Jul 2013

War is progressive.

War is peace.




Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
53. When a Democratic government drops bombs,
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 07:08 AM
Jul 2013

they land and release beautiful butterflies, kittens, and unicorns, then sprout daisies. Children run to pet the kitties, ride the unicorns and catch the butterflies in their nets. Democratic bombs are wonderful for children.

(Do I really need to add the tag to this?)

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
62. Psst.. We spend as much on war and getting ready for war as the rest of the world combined
Thu Jul 11, 2013, 09:48 AM
Jul 2013

Pass it on.

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