I'm really disheartened reading comments all over the web about this trial...

[dorkzilla]

I am *usually* a reasonable person who takes time to form an opinion based on fair preponderance of evidence presented. I am also PAINFULLY aware of my biases and prejudices and take that into consideration when I think I've made up my mind just to reality check my conclusion.

That said (profanity follows...) why the FUCK would anyone defend Zimmerman? Fuck the "reasonable doubt", we live in a nation that professes to believe in something that CANNOT be proved with a reasonable doubt so toss that out the window (sincere apologies to anyone of faith--i'll defend your right to believe what you do unless you try and shove it down my throat). Based on the lies this shit-stain has told I wouldn't believe anyone would defend him. Yet there they are, in their not-even-thinly-veiled racism, defending this sociopath.

The hatred being thrown at this boy is so sickening. Trayvon Martin has turned into the defendant. And that should make any rational person sick. The fact that its happening here on DU just fucking boggles my mind. I mean, everyone has a right to their opinion but there is NO FACTUAL evidence to suggest that this poor kid was the aggressor. The testimony of ONE person saying he thought Trayvon was on top doesn't mean shit.

Last point--on the Hannity interview when he asks GZ if he would do anything differently and GZ answers "no"....does that not tell you all you need to know about this shit-stain???????

[Skittles]

1. Trayvon fought for and ultimately lost his life

but in the mind of gun-humping cowards, the FEAR of Trayvon trumps all

[dorkzilla]

20. If anyone has the right to claim self-defense it was Trayvon.

And if you look down thread (which I will be unable to do momentarily) you'll see one of the gun-humpers has entered the room. A "newbie" who has studied Hoyt's posts ad nauseum. Not even the pretense of "I've lurked here a long time...."

[ellisonz]

108. ...

http://www.lyricsdepot.com/public-enemy/fear-of-a-black-planet.html

[Sherman A1]

2. Here is my take on the trial

There is a Judge, A Prosecutor, A Defense Attorney & A Jury. I am not part of any of those participants.

They will figure it out.


What anyone says in the media, on the web, on the telephone, in the car, in the shower or anywhere else is pretty much meaningless to the outcome of the trial.

[dorkzilla]

8. You're absolutely right it IS meaningless to the outcome. Let me clarify my point...

I am upset that there are so many people out there who are happy to marginalize this young man because he's (gasp) BLACK when the kid was on his way back to the home of his future step-mom with candy and a soft drink. I thought we were EVOLVING as a species, but it seems not.

Today on one of the posts, someone (forgive me, someone! I cannot find the thread!!) posits it's the assumed physical prowess of men of african descent that really makes people uncomfortable and can easily imagine a scenario where some skinny little black kid beats the piss out of a guy who has been taking MMA training multiple times a week. After thinking about this and recalling many incidents in my life where the white male I was with expressed absolute disgust when they saw a white woman with a black man I have to say there is absolutely some truth to that. These are people who would not consider themselves racist and when I called there BS as such, they just said "its unnatural". Unnatural because of their presupposition about said prowess, no doubt. Interracial couples I know are nearly NEVER hounded when the female is AA.

[Sherman A1]

148. I understood your point very clearly

let me clarify mine. All the talk is completely meaningless. People are entitled to whatever opinion they choose and to express that opinion, it may be agreeable to us, it may be beyond offensive to us or absolutely absurd in our eyes, but they are entitled to whatever they choose to believe. In the end however, no matter what their level of expertise (or lack of expertise) it is simply an opinion, it does not alter the trial, the facts of the case, the outcome or the situation one bit.

[davidpdx]

111. +1 for A1

[Little Star]

3. Didn't he also tell Hannity that it was god's will?

[Just Saying]

5. Beat me by that much!

[Just Saying]

4. He told Hannity it was

God's will.

I hope they lock him up and then let me hear him talk about God's will.

[Little Star]

6. I was thinking the same thing!

[kelliekat44]

7. Thank you for your post. It says it all. nt

[dorkzilla]

10. I can't remember a time when I was so close to tears...

I just cannot wrap my mind around the hatred. It makes me really really sad.

[Singlemalt]

9. Do you think

"Reasonable doubt" and "defending Zimmerman" are the same thing? Is it not possible to think Zimmerman has done something wrong yet there exists a reasonable doubt? Or is not wanting to see his entrails lit on fire in front of him a de facto status of being a "gunner bigot?"

[dorkzilla]

11. Prey tell, who are you quoting in your "gunner bigot" reference? Not all bigots have guns n/t

[Singlemalt]

12. I learned it here as I see it used all the time by other posters.

Hoyt seems to use it frequently.

But this is non-responsive to my question.

[dorkzilla]

13. And it won't get an answer because its presumptuous and pointless. BYE!!! n/t

[Singlemalt]

16. No, my question goes to the heart of your OP.

Here is what you said:

"That said (profanity follows...) why the FUCK would anyone defend Zimmerman? Fuck the "reasonable doubt", we live in a nation that professes to believe in something that CANNOT be proved with a reasonable doubt so toss that out the window (sincere apologies to anyone of faith--i'll defend your right to believe what you do unless you try and shove it down my throat). Based on the lies this shit-stain has told I wouldn't believe anyone would defend him. Yet there they are, in their not-even-thinly-veiled racism, defending this sociopath."

You seem to indicate quite clearly a determination of reasonable doubt if de facto "not-even-thinly-veiled racism" and "defending this sociopath." So as I asked do you feel if one concludes "reasonable doubt" this is to "defend Zimmerman?" You make it quite plain it is to be a thinly veiled racist and this puzzles me.

[Zoeisright]

101. Because every racist person I know and every racist person online

talks about "the thug [Trayvon] got what he deserved." If you don't see that you need some serious self-reflection and education.

[Pelican]

157. There is a middle ground...

... and likely a bit of truth in between the two extremes.

"That punk n***#$ kid got what he deserved" and that "That creepy cracker racist Zimmerman killed Martin because he was black... and did I mention Skittles?"

[uppityperson]

14. And who were you last incarnation?

[dorkzilla]

15. LOL I was JUST ABOUT TO EDIT MY LAST RESPONSE to say...

"Golly, only your second post and you already know Hoyt's feelings on the subject so well!! How prescient of you!!!!!"

[Singlemalt]

17. Prescient does not mean what you seem to think it means.

I have been reading various forums on this topic for the last couple of days. You do realize Hoyt's posts are visible to the public, correct? You also realize he's quite prolific and seems to perseverate on that phrase?

But back to my question...

I am looking for a conversation and not talking points. I guess your expressed thoughts do not bear scrutiny even from you and this is why you are non-responsive?

[hrmjustin]

18. Do you think Zimmerman is innocent?

[Singlemalt]

22. Maybe you should re-read my posts.

And then answer my questions first. After you re-read my questions could you please point out to me where you would get the slightest indication I think Zimmerman is innocent? In fact, if you really read my questions, you would see they specifically ask of one can think Zimmerman is not innocent yet that the defense has raised reasonable doubt. My desire was to tease apart the OPs obvious conflations.

As to the OP, yes, you should put me on ignore. It took me all of three posts to turn you inside out.

[hrmjustin]

25. Where you a former member here before?

[Singlemalt]

58. No.

Why do you ask?

[hrmjustin]

59. You came on very strong and and seemed to know names of posters. That is very uncommon for new

posters. I was just asking.

So what do you think should happen in the verdict?

[Singlemalt]

60. Was not in the courtroom.

What I think should happen is that the jury should judge the evidence presented by both sides, apply it to the charges, and come back with the verdict they think is correct.

What do you think should happen in the verdict?

[hrmjustin]

61. He should be found guilty!

Of both charges.

[Singlemalt]

64. Of both charges?

What are the two charges you think he should be found guilty of?

[hrmjustin]

65. Both. He is guilty as sin.

[Singlemalt]

67. Another try

What are the two charges?

[hrmjustin]

68. Manslaughter and 2nd degree murder.

[Singlemalt]

70. Thanks for answering

So manslaughter and 2nd degree murder. You do realize the two definitions are mutually exclusive, right? That it's impossible to be both murder and manslaughter at the same time?

[hrmjustin]

71. Look I am not a legal scholar but I do want to see him jail.

I know Murder 2 is not likely but I want him in to rot in jail.

[Singlemalt]

74. I am not a legal scholar either.

And I get you want him to rot in jail but the fact you think he should be found guilty of mutually exclusive charges is rather, well, ludicrous.

[hrmjustin]

76. Fine then they should find him guilty on whatever gives him a longer jail term.

[Singlemalt]

77. That's nice.

Whether the evidence supports that charge or not?

[hrmjustin]

81. The evidence supports it.

[Singlemalt]

86. The evidence supports it?

Well, a minute ago, you had the guy guilty of two mutually exclusive charges. You'll excuse me if I think your opinion might be suspect at this point?

[hrmjustin]

87. Well it is what I believe.

If you were a juror how would you vote?

[Singlemalt]

94. If I were a juror

I would have the knowledge the jurors do. We know how you would vote: for two mutually exclusive charges. This would no doubt make you quite famous.

[hrmjustin]

98. No need to be nasty to me.

[Singlemalt]

106. I am not being nasty to you.

In fact, I think I am being quite patient with you. Given that your opinion is Zimmerman should be found guilty of two mutually exclusive charges I think I have been quite restrained.

[hrmjustin]

113. I think I and Du is being rather patient with you.

[uppityperson]

126. I could post Sid's graphic but I bet it isn't needed.

[hrmjustin]

127. The Zimmerman trolls are coming out in force.

[uppityperson]

128. I was on MIRT after the grade school shooting massacre, it was awful. I bet they are

rather busy now too.

[ceonupe]

159. There's it is "the disagree with the "DU" position. Get kicked

Threat.

It's becoming so common here. If you have any disagreement with many emotionally charged oppinions on the site and press people to reveal their beliefs are emotion not law based they get mad. Call you names and threaten to ban you by making references that your disagreement with them means you are anit progressive or a racists or gun nut or what ever to discredit your point.


This is comment and how people run to jury for posts they disagree with has DU looking more and more like the "court" in batman.

[hrmjustin]

166. I never alerted on him.

[Kingofalldems]

175. The old liberals and 'emotional' right wing tripe.

Got it.

[uppityperson]

69. Based on what you have seen, read, heard, what do you think the correct verdict should be?

I know you were not in the courtroom, but based on what you have knowledge of, how would you rule?

[Singlemalt]

72. I do not play a fool's game.

My knowledge is incomplete vs. the jury. I know you want me to say I think the evidence does not measure up so you can rant away but I do not play those games. I will say Zimmerman was armed and therefore had at least the moral obligation to retreat, de-escalate, and not confront. Unlike so many here though I do not confuse the moral with the legal.

[uppityperson]

79. You do not know what I want unless you can read minds. I am looking for your opinion.

That is why I said based on what you have heard, read, seen, how would you rule. You will not give your opinion and say you won't play. Huh.

[Singlemalt]

84. Did you read my reply at all?

I said Zimmerman's moral duty was to:

1) Not confront
2) De-escalate
3) Retreat

You do understand I've explicitly stated three moral duties I think he did not meet, right? As far as the legal, again, I do not play fool's games. In lieu of bounded knowledge I pass on opining like I have the knowledge to do so reasonably. Where is the problem here? That I won't get the pitchforks out for Zimmerman in lieu of a knowledge deficit?

[uppityperson]

90. Let me try again. This is a discussion board. We share opinions and discuss things. I am looking for

simply your opinion, based on what you have read, seen, heard. I am not trying to get you to say something beyond what is your opinion based on what you have read, seen, heard. You will not be held responsible for your opinion, it will not count in a court of law, but like you are asking others, what is your opinion, how would you rule based on what you have read, seen, heard?

You have no opinion yet you ask others. Huh.

[Singlemalt]

92. Does one need an opinion to find out the opinion of others?

Huh.

No, I think one does not.

Here's the difference between me and so many people I am reading here. I can admit I just do not have enough knowledge to give a reasonable opinion. I've told you twice now that I think Zimmerman was in the moral wrong by at least three things. This is not enough for you though. I have to be the fool and give a legal opinion I'm not qualified to give. I'm fine acknowledging I do not have the data to do that. I do have the data to morally condemn him though, which I have continued to do, but that's not good enough.

Huh.

[uppityperson]

93. Asking your opinion make you "have to be the fool"? I do not think that word means what you think it

means.

[Singlemalt]

96. Derivative

But that's okay as Creed made millions off being derivative.

You do also realize what you put in quotes is not what I said? I mean, you are reading what I say, right?

[uppityperson]

99. I like peach pie. nt

[Singlemalt]

102. Me too!

Agreement!

[uppityperson]

103. Post 92. You did say it.

"have to be the fool"
Maybe you are forgetting what you wrote?

[Singlemalt]

109. You're correct.

I was using the term "fool's game" earlier and I did say "have to be the fool." I stand by that. Only a fool renders up a legal opinion in such a case when he/she is in a position of knowledge deficit.

Btw, why do you refuse to acknowledge my repeated statements of Zimmerman's moral breaches? Is only a legal opinion valid to you?

[hrmjustin]

85. Why would she want you to say something?

[dorkzilla]

19. Um, yes it does. and you're not looking for a conversation, you're looking for an argument.

MY point was there is nothing supporting HIS version of the facts and there are so many holes in his story that i am suspicious when someone defends him.

And NOW I am going to do something I've never done before...put someone on ignore.

[uppityperson]

51. Suuuuurrrre you have. Why are you non-responsive to my question?

[NoOneMan]

124. When you kill the only other eye-witness, of course there is doubt

You are free to make up any wild, crazy fantasy. Yet the one Zimmerman made up is full of holes, and therefore not reasonable

[Skittles]

151. I am sick of the DUers who can't see it was TRAYVON who was using self defense

NOT ZIMMERMAN

[Scootaloo]

176. Another DU poster has a sig line that can answer your question...

Cold objectivity in the face of injustice is a form of complicity

When you reaction to the killing of a child, by a man who was obviously looking for a fight, and has been lying from day one, is non-reaction, when your response is to prattle on about legalisms and huff and puff about how "fair" and "objective" you are... then yes, you are giving Zimmerman your support and defense. You are providing shelter for his zany-ass nonsense arguments, and are giving him reams of credibility he has not earned. You think your own opinion is masked by your finger-wagging about the prosecution or the judge or what have you, but it's really, really not.

[Hugabear]

21. Gun humpers tend to stick together

Zimmerman was just doing what many of them fantasize about, blasting away a 'fucking punk'

[dorkzilla]

24. Right! That statement and the "these assholes always get away"...

to my mind absolutely show malice aforethought. But I'm just a bleeding heart liberal.

[DearAbby]

23. And ONLY IN AMERICA

can a person shoot and kill an unarmed black teenager, and have money sent fro all corners of the country, like Manna from Heaven. A Bounty on black children. Crime indeed pays, just say you were afraid. The would be/current THUG attacked first.

[dorkzilla]

27. Yup!

And, as I posted on another thread, the fact that Trayvon Martin could have easily been reacting to being stalked the way he was told to since he was a wee lad seems to have not occurred to anyone. "Stranger Danger" has been taught to his generation probably since he was in pre-school. Seems to be a reasonable explanation of why he may have been running. Or it would have been if he was white.

[lumpy]

75. That tells us a lot that we have not progressed as an humanitarian nation.

NRA contributed plenty of money to Zimmerman's defense; the rest have fear of blacks 'taking' over coupled with out and out rascism.

[ceonupe]

160. Um no the nra did not members may have

Um no the NRA did not members may have. GZ was not even a NRA member.

It ok not to like the NRA its also ok not to like the fact that GZ set up a fund. But u don't have to tie the 2 together with lies.

And yes I do fully expect lots of worldstarhiphop.com hood classic videos of complete ignorance if GZ walks. I'm willing to bet liveleak.com will have some as well.

Yes I think GZ was morally wrong but I don't think the state proved its case and this is the system we have in America. I believe this was a major over charge. And was prejudged way to much in the media.

[Kingofalldems]

174. Ah, so you want Zimmy to walk?

I am shocked. Not. Fascinating profile BTW.

[davidn3600]

26. Our justice system is based on the presumption of innocence

By stating that, it's not defending Zimmerman, it's defending our system of justice. You act as if anyone that defends the system must be some kind of racial hate-monger.

Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

Before you get all so worked up over this and end up with high blood pressure while writing these strongly-worded posts....can you please allow the justice system to work? Let's see what the jury decides, and then we can get upset.

[dorkzilla]

28. I'm not questioning the justice system.n/t

[Singlemalt]

54. Exactly what my questions were getting at.

But apparently the OP seems to think like W. If you're not for us, you're against us!

[lumpy]

82. The fact that racism and bigotry is still in flower can affect how well the justice system works.

Racism in this country is a powerful influence, particularly justice wise.

[DonCoquixote]

138. OK, I'll see your point and raise you one

First off, the fact he was able to walk, that Zimmerman did not even have to make bail, shows preferential treatment. It also allowed for a lot of evidence to get washed into the sewer, literally and figuratively. He was also able to have time to fund raise, which got him a better class of lawyer, as well as poison the jury pool.

And this was before the trial even begun.

So, yes I understand that we do not want an OJ style media lynch mob, fine, but when the process is skewed, and done so in such a blatant manner, where no one even has to pretend they are staying within limits, than we cannot claim Justice kept her blindfold on.

[Lurks Often]

172. "Zimmerman did not even have to make bail" is not true

Zimmerman was not charged with a crime until April 11th, 2012. He turns himself in the same day and is taken into custody. The bail hearing occurs on April 20th, 2012 and bail is set at $150,000, Zimmerman is released on bail at 12:03am on April 23rd, 2012.

[dkf]

29. If your attitude is "fuck reasonable doubt" then you won't understand why people think

The prosecution has not fulfilled the elements of 2nd degree murder or manslaughter.

[dorkzilla]

32. (sigh) sorry, I didn't mean that exactly...

There is reasonable doubt as far as the jury is concerned. We have a good legal system and I won't dispute that. What I mean, albeit badly phrased I admit, is that there is no reasonable reason, after all we've discovered, to give any credence to Zimmerman's version of the incident.

[dkf]

36. Except the forensic evidence shows TM was on top when shot, showing dominance.

2 witnesses have the person on top beating on person on bottom and someone screaming at length for help.

His story could be mostly wrong but those elements alone are a case for self defense.

That is why "beyond a reasonable doubt" does matter.

[dorkzilla]

38. That's just ridiculous. How could it be self defense if GZ was pursuing TM???

The comments he made to the dispatcher before he even confronted Trayvon should be enough to hang him. The fact that the shit stain repeatedly refers to TM as "the suspect" should be evidence alone for anyone. And the suggestion that it was GZ's voice screaming isn't even logical. Why did the screaming stop abruptly when the shot rang out. If GZ didn't think he was dead, as he testified, why would he stop screaming? Wouldn't he be still be screaming for help??? Also, he said over and over he (GZ) screamed multiple times...yet he also said TM had his hand over his mouth and nose, which kind of renders that spurious since no one said they heard muffled screams.

I'm sure if the victim was melanin-challenged people wouldn't be so quick to blame him.

Edited to add - also I should let you know that I come from a law-enforcement family, so my first inclination is to put myself in their shoes. GZ was no LEO, and no LEO I know would ever do something so stupid (but they are LEO in the NE, not the deep south so racism, although present, isnt so institutionalized here).

I hope GZ burns in hell....

[heaven05]

42. you

must understand that the zpig apologists/logicists have no interest in this kid that was murdered except as some forensic evidence of black threat who brought skittles and tea to a GUN fight. You really are wasting your time trying to reason with certain individuals on this site who just don't want to admit the wrong that was done by this wannabe cop to an UNARMED kid. I agree with you, but I have to be careful because I am emotionally invested in this joke of a trial and the actions and non action of the PD of Sanford fla. This kid was in the morgue for three days before the parents finally found him with no help from PD. He was less than worthless to these people. That told me everything about their understanding of what zpig did. You're really wasting your time with the apologist on this site disguising themselves as people who want a just legal system to work for murderer and victim alike. They have my undying derision. Maybe justice will prevail, yet I don't hold out a lot of hope that it will fall on Trayvon's side.

[dorkzilla]

45. Its like Freepers have invaded DU! LOL xoxo thanks! n/t

[Just Saying]

112. They have.

If they're defending Z and just joined during the trial expect Fox talking points.

Good OP! A lot of people feel this way too.

[lumpy]

91. Agree most heartedly. The Sanford police should be held accountable for their delibrate

and outrageous handling of this case. The citizens of Florida should be responding to that fact.
Anyone who doesn't believe racism is a huge factor in miscarriage of justice in the court system is worse than burying their heads in the sand.

[dorkzilla]

95. Just look at the rate of incarceration in the AA community

That should tell anyone what they want to know.

BTW, "Lumpy" is one of my dog's nicknames (started when he was a baby as puppy lump)

[lumpy]

163. Small world: Lumpy was my son's dog nickname.

n

[dorkzilla]

164. That's really funny! n/t

[dkf]

66. You are pulling it back too far in time from the incident.

If you can prove Z was doing something illegal then self defense is harder. But they haven't done so.

I'm just saying your understanding of the law is apparently different from mine. If you truly believe and have researched the law in Florida then you will get your guilty charge. So be it. I just think you've got the Florida law all wrong.

[dorkzilla]

83. again, this was not a commentary of the judicial system n/t

[dkf]

88. Then we may be on the same page but are debating two different things.

[dorkzilla]

89. Very possibly! n/t

[Just Saying]

115. Not entirely true.

I watched the defense witness on this and I believe he said the evidence was conducive with Trayvon being over Z, but on cross he admitted Trayvon could have been pulling back. The bottom line seemed to be that his shirt wasn't against his skin when he was shot.

I only recall one witness claiming he saw Trayvon on top (Good). Who was the other? And the female neighbor (Lauer?) said she saw the opposite. Both could be right I suppose if they saw the fight at different points.

I'm not sure any of it proves Trayvon was the aggressor rather than defending himself.

But then I just don't believe Zimmerman's version for a number of reasons.

[dkf]

119. If there was any evidence TM was pulling back then that would be a problem.

Problem is that doesn't fit with the prosecutions case. They claimed Z was on top. Don't know why they did that when there were grass stains on back of Zs shirt. They should have claimed something more ambiguous.

[Just Saying]

123. I really don't think the prosecution has claimed much of anything.

And that may be a problem. At the end of the day they don't know for sure what happens so their approach has been to shoot holes in Z's story of self-defense. They seem to be telling the jury that they don't have a theory on exactly how the fight went down, but Z's story is a lie so he's guilty. I'm not sure if it will fly.

And I will say again, even if Trayvon was on top, it actually doesn't prove this was self-defense.

[dkf]

133. You hit it on the nose. They have poked holes but

That doesn't get them beyond reasonable doubt. It's the end of the case and still no narrative from the prosecution. It's almost surreal that at the very end they posit TM was on top and getting off.

[TorchTheWitch]

120. the dominant person was the one with the gun

from start to finish. And NO witness saw Martin beating Zimmerman. Not ONE. Good, who had to change his testimony in court testified that he saw the person with the dark sweater on top of the other person with his arms moving downward. He had to admit that he did not see any punching but only what he THOUGHT was punching. He also said he believed that the person on the bottom was the one screaming not because he saw it but because his opinion was that in such a situation it would be the person on the bottom that was screaming.

Zimmerman's own words put the lie to what happened as he lied about multiple things many of them absolutely laughable.

As to Florida law, no you may not kill someone you are in a fight with unless you have a REASONABLE fear you are in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. Not what HE thinks is reasonable but what the average person deems reasonable. Zimmerman claims he was in imminent fear of death because his head was pounded on cement 20 or more times, that he was punched in the face 35-40 times and that Martin tried to smother him yet the blood on his face isn't smeared, the screams that were heard and he claims were his own weren't muffled or paused, and there was not only no blood on Martin's hands but not a single cell of Zimmerman's DNA yet Zimmerman claimed Martin previously punched him in the nose making it bleed. No reasonable person on earth will believe that his unbroken nose that bled a little not from his nostrils but from the two little cuts on the tip of his nose and the two tiny lacerations to the back of his head that showed no smearing of blood and the rivulets of blood from those two small cuts trailed down the back of his head and then toward the face which put him in an upright position with his head bent downward would believe that he was reasonably afraid of death or great bodily harm nor would they believe his claims of how he got those insignificant injuries.

Yep, there's nothing about following someone with your car and then when they run from you on foot and then chase them down and confront them that is against the law. However, any reasonable person would believe that a person to whom this happened would be in reasonable fear of the person following, chasing and then confronting them and have the right to defend themselves. Florida law allows MARTIN to have stood his ground and physically fought off Zimmerman because he had a reasonable person's fear of harm from him. Had Martin been a female Zimmerman would have been arrested that night and there would be no question as to his guilt. Why is this any different that Martin was a male CHILD?

Further, if at any time Zimmerman pulled out his gun before he claims to have pulled it out Martin would have had the reasonable fear of being imminently killed or have great bodily harm done to him. And there's no way that Zimmerman pulled out his gun when he claims to have done so because in the positions he claims both he and Martin were in it would not have been physically possible for him to have done so.... he had to have had his gun already out and in his hand. THAT is why Zimmerman shot him... because Martin was trying to keep Zimmerman from shooting him, and Zimmerman was afraid he'd get his gun away from him and kill him with his own gun.

Had Zimmerman not tried to play vigilante cop and chase down a kid who was just walking home from the store unarmed with candy and a canned drink talking on his phone with a friend, confront this innocent kid who he was sure was a criminal up to no good in his own mind, pulled a gun on him and when afraid he'd lose his gun to him because of what HE HIMSELF did then both Martin and Zimmerman would have been alive and uninjured going about their own business.

[dorkzilla]

122. Thank you!

As the night goes on, I become less articulate, so thank you for being so on the mark!

[reusrename]

137. What part of the prosecution's case is in doubt to you?

There is no evidence that Zimmerman was in fear for his life. He never made any such claim.

He says the Martin kid threatened his life verbally.

But the law says he has to be in fear for his life and he never claimed that to be the case.

[Skittles]

140. TRAYVON WAS FIGHTING FOR HIS LIFE

what part of that do you not understand????

[dkf]

145. So you do think TM was slamming Z to save his own life?

[Skittles]

146. YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HE WAS STALKED AND ATTACKED BY A GUN-TOTING VIGILANTE FOR NO REASON!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dkf]

147. You do realize you've just given Z grounds for self defense?

[Skittles]

150. TRAYVON STOOD HIS GROUND AGAINST AN ATTACKER

ZIMMERMAN WAS THE ATTACKER

[dkf]

152. Both have right to defend themselves.

[Skittles]

153. nope

you don't have the right to stalk someone for no reason, confront them with a gun and then claim self defense when they fight back - only gun humping racist folk think like that

[dkf]

155. Your facts are iffy and unproven.

Your terms are inaccurate also.

Too much to fix...that's just off.

[Skittles]

171. LOL

that gutless coward would NEVER have confronted Trayvon in the dark without his precious gun - NEVER

[bravenak]

30. I'm tired of people saying he should have run faster.

And refusing to note that Zimmerman could have stayed in his car.
Or saying its not illegal to follow people.
Of course it's not illegal to follow people, but when you follow somebody and they end up dead.....
You did something illegal.
Or saying ' what do skittles have to do with whether he was dangerous or not'.
Or saying he was in fear for his life. While carrying a gun.

[dorkzilla]

34. 'i'm in fear of my life therefore I am getting out of my safe car...

...and following this guy because this is one asshole who isn't getting away because I am the law 'round these parts'

[bravenak]

35. Exactly!

Worst neighborhood watchman ever. Doesn't even say he neighborhood watch.
I wish we could send him to take the black.

[YarnAddict]

31. Yup.

I checked out the comments on Yahoo news today. I haven't done that before, about this case. I thought they would be, at most 50/50. I was amazed. It was probably 90% pro-Zim, and those posts were absolutely dripping with racism. Makes me wonder if we have made any progress at all.

[dorkzilla]

33. Sickening, isn't it? n/t

[YarnAddict]

37. Sure is.

I'm old enough to remember the 60's and 70's. At the time, I really thought we'd be past this by now. In some ways, it seems to be gettng worse.

[dorkzilla]

40. Me too, I'll be 48 in 5 weeks, and I agree it seems to be getting worse. Or maybe...

we're just paying closer attention to stuff.

Either way, I'm so depressed right now that I am going to watch some reruns of Father Ted on netflix and log off here for a while. Plus I just saw some a--hole cop kill a dog on Chris Hayes and I want to go watch netflix and cuddle with my doggies

[heaven05]

52. amerikkka

has always had a backward and ignorant culture with people who have racism and homophobia as their only reason for living. Faux news, rush limpdick, romshit and annie, michelle bachman, rubio, and on and on in the rethug and tea parties. They are the outward manifestations of a very diseased system. I grew up in the south in the 50's and part of the sixties. Attitudes come and go in amerikkka but racism endures with a sickening vengeance as evidenced by the murder of this unarmed 17 year old.

[dorkzilla]

62. I was lucky enough to learn this as a child

My dad comes from real Yankee stock, but my mum is an Irish immigrant. As a child I was fortunate enough to spend summer in Ireland, and it was there that I first heard criticism of the USA with good reason. At first I shrugged it off as "communist propaganda" as coached by the American relations, but I slowly started to see the "other side" had a point.

In spite of my Mayflower roots, I've never been on of those jingoistic "WE'RE NUMBER 1" types, as I had been exposed to so many other cultures, thoughts and ideas (thank dog for being born in the Bronx!). Now that the US is sinking fast from our #1 slot, I couldn't give a rats ass and indeed, I feel it is poetic justice for our arrogance. "WE'RE NUMBER 1" could have been a reasonable chant in the immediate post-war (WWII) era, but hasn't been for some time.

The ignorant, racist, homophobic idiots who ironically demonstratively disavow the "all men are created equal" that are the first to step up and claim they are patriots are the very people who killed America.

As Lincoln said - "As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it, "All men are created equal, except Negroes." When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read, "All men are created equal except Negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some other country where they make no pretense of loving liberty - to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, without the base alloy of hypocrisy."

Couldn't be any truer than it is now.

[heaven05]

162. yep

[yardwork]

78. I've noticed that for months everywhere on the internet. It's horrible.

I'm actually shocked. I knew that there was still a lot of racism but the depth of this has shocked me.

[dorkzilla]

97. Its KILLING me. Especially since (and I can't find the link right now...)

I'll update it later when I find it, but there was a study saying the USA was one of the LEAST racist countries in the world. If that's true, that's very sad.

[lumpy]

100. No we haven't progressed, only gotten worse, a lot of it stoked by fear of losing white power.

Woman's rights being attacked, fear of losing male power. Capitalist fear of losing financial power;
Democracy being attacked.

[lumpy]

114. The fact that blacks and women have gained influence in positions of leadership and influence

have put the fear of inpotentcy in the hearts the dominant white male of the species. Law of the Lions, The lust for Power.

[dorkzilla]

130. If you think of it that way, its the death knell

of the old guard. It's kind of pathetic. They could be campaigning on positive notes "hey, us white dudes have written some beautiful music [classical], ushered in amazing art movements, contributed much to math and science, so we need a WGPS (white guy's preservation society)" but they're campaigning on a platform of "we hate Broads, Queers, WOPS, SPICS and Unions".

Can't die too fast IMHO. Not that I hate them (personally my white guy is sweet, empathetic and smart), but as "they" say about the Muslims "the moderates arent protesting against the zealots".

[lumpy]

134. Many people have not been endoctrinated or seriously influenced by racism and bigotry,

thank goodness; probably most of us have been exposed by it, but there have been other greater influences that over ride that destructive exposure.
I like your assessment of how the white dudes have used the wrong method of trying to prove their worth by down grading the people they fear, broads, queers,unions and any group they consider a threat. Thanks for your input.

[Raine]

39. DISGUSTING and IMO the A-Hole Zimmerman will get off! nt

[Nevernose]

41. I think for many defendants, "reasonable doubt" is viable

The problem in this case is that how many times do you have to give someone the benefit of the doubt before it becomes unreasonable doubt?

And why do people believe anyone who has told so many lies? There would be plenty of reasonable doubt in this case if George Zimmerman's word about this case was any good, but he's been untruthful since the first day.

The physical evidence doesn't support his story, much of his story is demonstrably false, the parts that cant be proven false are laughable, and a child is dead.

(And for the record, Dorkzilla, there was also testimony from a witness who said Zimmerman was on top and Martin was screaming, but that gets ignored).

[dorkzilla]

43. +1

Thank you. And I love how the defenders claim there is "forensic evidence" that Trayvon was on top...phooey.

[lumpy]

121. That witness was more believable and made more sense, even moreso than the defense 'experts'.

Experts are not always correct and infallible in their assessments and opinions. And of course people, including experts and bigots have their agendas.

[TNNurse]

44. If you in your car with your gun.....

need to defend yourself against an unarmed boy who is not in your car by getting out and approaching him and then shooting him dead, you do not understand a basic point. NONE OF THAT IS DEFENSE, IT WAS AN OFFENSIVE MOVE BY AN ARMED ADULT TO AN UNARMED BOY......AND ONLY BECAUSE HE WAS BLACK. There really is no other explanation. A racist white man attacked a boy because he was black. This trial should have taken a hour tops.

[dorkzilla]

47. ...and that's all this is about. Race. n/t

[lumpy]

129. Zimmermans ambition to prove that he is a super crime fighter cop and his obsession with the idea

was a huge factor in the case. The subjects of his pursuits happened to be 'suspicious' blacks'
preferably wearing hoodys apparently.

[Liberal_in_LA]

46. dont read them.

[dorkzilla]

48. The most simple solutions are the best! n/t

[SaveAmerica]

49. Someone said that Z was justified because of stuff stolen

by black men in the weeks previous to the shooting. Cause we get to stalk and shoot all young black men to make sure the guilty one is killed.

I agree with you, I can hardly believe the garbage I'm reading.

[dorkzilla]

50. What.The.Fuck.

Seriously?

I swear I'm starting to hate white people (said the lilly-white anglo-irish woman).

[yardwork]

80. That's what this is all about. White people claiming their right to kill any black man.

It's horrible, appalling, disgusting...I can't describe it.

[Zoeisright]

105. Really. And burglary is punishable by death now?

That's the other thing. These ignorant assholes seem to think that killing for burglary is a-ok.

[SaveAmerica]

139. Just read this article, it describes the situation to a T

Why they feel the need to be vigilantes and go after everyone they think is out to get them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023222478

It can be hard to tell how much of it is driven by cynicism and how much is honest paranoia, but there's no denying the commitment with which the NRA promotes the fantasy that an armed America is a safer America.
After all, the newsletter of the NRA's lobbying arm is called Armed Citizen. It promises that "While the anti-gun media doesn't want to report the truth about Americans using guns for self-defense as often as 2.5 million times a year, you can read breaking stories of everyday citizens fending off violent criminals." . . .

As Zimmerman's killing of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin so horribly demonstrates, far from making people safer, all too often a gun makes a bad situation much, much worse. Accept for the moment Zimmerman's own account of the night of February 26, 2012: after he had followed Martin, Martin attacked and got the better of him, and, in fear for his life, he shot Martin in self-defense.

Zimmerman says that Martin reached for Zimmerman's gun. Since no one is claiming Martin set out that evening for anything other than Skittles and an iced tea -- certainly not to kill someone he'd never met before -- even if we believe Zimmerman's story, that story tells us that the presence of a gun helped turn a fist fight into a killing. Without the gun, the encounter might never have happened, since Zimmerman would have been a pistol's-worth less confident about getting out of his car and following Martin.

. . .

[BillyRibs]

53. In My Neighbor Hood,

If I saw a Young White Boy, I would think, This kid cant be up to anything good. BUT Even with a gun I would never think of confronting Him. Call the Cops let them handle it. Being white in this hood is not against the law. Zimmerman should hang!

[dorkzilla]

56. Depending on what part of NJ you're from, they'd see the white guy...

...and think some evil black person was selling him drugs and bust into someone's flat and shoot their frightened, barking dog, then realize it was "kind of" a mistake...

Seriously, I saw a comment on a major news website that said if GZ hadn't shot TM, TM would have ended up doing time for something...

Prevailing fucking attitude. African Americans are ALWAYS up to no good. If they aren't, they WILL BE.

[lumpy]

131. That is what a reasonable person would do. Zimmerman is one warped individual and should be

filed away.

[Owl]

55. As I said in another thread, GZ is guilty as sin. No doubts whatsoever.

[dorkzilla]

57. but wait, Owl, you have to let the justice system do its job, because

YOU'RE NOT ENTITLED TO AN INFORMED OPINION, ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE IN THE MINORITY.


Didn't you get the memo???

[Apophis]

63. Zimmerman is an MMA wannabe punk who failed at becoming s cop.

And he shot and killed TM just because he was black and walking around at night.

[zeeland]

73. If Trayvon were a white kid

George Zimmerman would be toast. I have shut off news as much as possible
because the racial hatred is actually making me physically ill. Everything that
can be done, has been done to save GZ. Failure to collect evidence from the
scene and from Trayvon's body is in and of itself criminal.

If GZ is free to walk I hope everyone that is broken hearted never step foot
in Florida again. Let their tourist industry tank. Frankly, I could never be
there again without the constant reminder.

[Zoeisright]

107. I'm not setting foot in that state again

as long as as a repuke is in power, and it's too bad. I love the Gulf Coast of Florida, especially Sanibel. But if Zimmerman walks, that's it. No more Florida for me.

[zeeland]

110. It's the only power for injustice we have left.

[HardTimes99]

118. I used to teach students only a year or two older than Trayvon, so I have

been so upset I can only bring myself to read about the trial here and then only in small doses. (With a 3.5 GPA, in another year or two, Trayvon could easily have become one of my students.)

Were Zimmerman black and Trayvon white, I think we all know things would have played out entirely differently from the way they actually did play out, starting with the initial police contact after the shooting.

[zeeland]

135. The Sanford police really thought they had this all wrapped up with a pretty bow.

Who was going to make a fuss over the death of a Black kid from Sanford. Certainly not
when the almighty police tried the case and determined GZ innocent. This law allows just
enough wiggle room for an already militarized police force to do just that.

The outrage was so loud and extreme they went into damage control mode until the state
came in and took control.

Those shaking their heads in wonder at all the fuss need to just remain in the shallow end
of the gene pool until the never ending patience and compassion of people of color, drag
them into something akin to evolutionary awareness.

[avebury]

104. I don't understand why people treat Zimmerman's story like

it is the gospel truth. This is a guy who went on national TV, looked Hannity right in the eyes and told a bold face lie (RE: Stand Your Ground) and didn't even blink about it. Anybody who would tell a lie about something that could be easily confirmed as fact of fiction is capable of lying about anything. Therefore, his entire story about that night is suspect and should not be considered reliable.

If I were on the jury, I would leave Zimmerman's story out of the deliberation. Once you acknowledge that Zimmerman's story is not reliable, the entire defense case falls apart.

[dorkzilla]

117. That, dear Avebury, is exactly what I am talking about.

so happy I'm not the only person who feels like this!!!

[Hoyt]

116. Fock, haven't laughed that hard in a long time.

[dorkzilla]

125. Hoyt, we ALL know you're not "Gun Friendly"!!!! LOL!

Unfortunately I can't see if the "newbie" said anything beyond that but I hope it was a grand chuckle!!! But CLEARLY you're oppressing the NRA!!!!! LOL!!!!!

[Captain Stern]

132. I haven't seen any hatred thrown towards Martin here. Not once

Of course, just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. But I've read, and posted, in a lot of the Martin/Zimmerman threads. I've seen plenty of folks here defend due process (myself included), but I haven't seen where anybody has said that Martin was doing anything wrong when Zimmerman followed him.

[noiretextatique]

167. you haven't been here very long

trust me...it is here. there are some pro-zimmerman posters right here. they keep claiming martin was the aggressor, and as the OP mentioned, the only person who claims that is zimmerman, the person who killed martin. and that claim benefits only zimmerman.

[tblue]

136. Zimmerman's demeanor

and his manner of speaking in the police interviews just seem off-kilter to me.

If you'd just had a fight with, then shot and killed someone who had jumped, punched, and pummeled you when you had been minding your own business, would you gingerly explain how that all went down in dispassionate detail? Or would you be shaking and frazzled and horrified, maybe hysyerical, certainly crying, and damn pissed that that person put you in that position?

I saw a "lying" expert speak and she pointed out some of the "tells" of a liar. An honest person is PISSED when attacked, with an attitude like, "Are you out of your freaking mind?!" (Remember Jerry Sandusky when Bob Costas asked him if he was sexually attracted to children? Remember how weird he was in answering? Same kinda thing.)

I would love to hear her take on GZ's performances.

[GiaGiovanni]

141. The web brings out the worst in people

That being said, you can't throw away "reasonable doubt". That's what our jury system is built on. Also understand that the jury is not going to want to let Zimmerman just walk. The prosecution did a godawful job and they should all resign when this is over. However, the women of that jury are not doing to want a killer of a teenager to just walk.

[Skittles]

154. there are so-called progressives IN THIS THREAD who want Zimmerman to walk

the NRA culture has sickened America

[GiaGiovanni]

165. I don't know if that's the NRA culture or the fact that the prosecution did such a poor job

Really, the prosecution did a horrible job. They not only did not prove their case, they actually undermined it. Maybe that's why some progressives want Zimmerman to walk. Progressives are very concerned on principle that the court actually proves its case so that our encroaching police state cannot merely railroad people into prison. The Florida prosecution did not prove their case at all. What a bunch of incompetents!

All the same, I don't think Zimmerman will walk. I think it will be manslaughter.

[Skittles]

170. the idea you cannot walk on a public road, minding your own business

without being confronted by a racist, gun humping vigilante - it makes no fucking sense!!!!! WTF!!!!!!!!

[GiaGiovanni]

173. I'm with you on that. If Zimmerman had just called the cops

and stayed in his truck to wait, none of this would have happened.

[Samantha]

142. I believe the short answer is that a defense attorney's job is to obfuscate the evidence

It has done what I see earns it an A for effort and an E for results. Nothing changes the fact that a man with prejudices operating under a neighborhood watch umbrella in which he was to do nothing more than call the police if he observed something suspicious chose to stalk a teenage African-American young man. He ignored the police's statement that they did not need him to follow the young man since an officer was being dispatched. But follow the young man he did, against the police advisory. Profile and stalk him he did. Everything that ensured thereafter, the defendant in this case is responsible for instigating.

No obfuscation of the evidence or contradictory testimony by experts or friends and family can change that. Trayvon Martin is not on this earth today because Zimmerman initiated the chain of events which resulted in the young man's death. Zimmerman should be found guilty of manslaughter if there is any justice to be had. He was the catalyst for this tragedy.

Sam

[cthulu2016]

143. You had me at "Fuck the "reasonable doubt""

[bluedigger]

144. It's the same 100 guys pounding away on every site they can find.

The NRA puts them up on cots in their basement and has them run shifts on a couple of TRS-80's.

[uponit7771]

156. +1

[dorkzilla]

158. I'd love to believe that but there's too many of them n/t

[Jasana]

149. Pro gun rights here but this rant is righteously right. nt

[KurtNYC]

161. Dunning Kruger effect -- a small percentage of people post comments

On YouTube it is about 1 comment per 1000 views.

People are lonely, drunk, angry, or just miserable in their own lives. Some are kids who find it funny to get people passionately riled up. Many learn that if you post a reasonable comment you get no response but if you post something inflammatory you get all kinds of responses.

I try not to read the comments.

[noiretextatique]

168. welcome to ameriKKKa!

the ugly underbelly of racism is out, loud and proud. we've seen it with President Obama and his family, and we are seeing it with Trayvon Martin, the victim of a racist vigilante.

[Amaya]

169. Racism is an ugly thing

this whole thing makes me