In 2016, I will support the DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE, completely and without reservation,

[LaydeeBug]

because not doing so would make something much, much worse inevitable.

And I will support whoever that is so that the ulterior doesn't happen because ANY Democrat is better than EVERY Republican. Best believe that.

[yesphan]

1. Uh, yep.

[pkdu]

2. ^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^

One hundred and ten percent.

[cali]

3. fortunately there are primaries. Some of us also live in states where

we aren't compelled to vote while holding our noises. I agree, however, that any dem is better than every repub.

[olddots]

4. I hope so this site is called Democratic Underground

remember Democrats can be bad guys too so we must not give up our ideals .

[Bully Taw]

47. They are all bad guys

Neither the D's or the R's in office currently give a crap about the average citizen. They are all taking care of their own special interests. That is what happens when people are in office for their entire adult lives; Corruption.

Term limits!!!!

[thelordofhell]

54. Term Limits has been one of the biggest mistakes made

If you want the person out of office......GOTV

[DonCoquixote]

75. really?

Geroge Bush would probably still be pres if not for them, and I mean Poppy.

[Bully Taw]

106. how very...

naive of you.

[mac56]

59. Term limits are a disaster.

It's a feel-good solution that actually worsens the "problem" it's supposed to fix.

[TeamPooka]

65. the D's or the R's are not the same and usually the ones saying that are not Democrats.

[liberal_at_heart]

68. you're right. I'm not a democrat. I'm an independent.

[Bully Taw]

104. people that say they arent the same...

are kidding themselves.

[Bully Taw]

105. i support democratic and progressive ideals

I don't always get the feeling that our elected democrats do the same, though.

[TinkerTot55]

70. We have term limits.......

They're called, " elections."

[pampango]

61. Exactly. The republican base fights to get the most conservative candidate. We can fight for

the most liberal. After the primary, it's Democratic all the way.

[Blackford]

5. This truly goes without saying.

OR at least, it should.

[Blanks]

29. No kidding, and yet...

[tosh]

6. Here...me...

I'm in!

[bushisanidiot]

7. AGREED! and it's all about the SCOTUS!

HOW MANY MORE SCALIAS DO WE WANT ON THE COURT?!

[zappaman]

8. Of course.

I see some on this board saying elections don't matter and both parties are the same, but I disagree.
SCOTUS, for example, is a HUGE reason not to let a Republican into the driver's seat.

And it's sad this has to be said on a site called DEMOCRATIC Underground, but that's the state of things around here lately.

[AllINeedIsCoffee]

9. That's what real Democratic Party members do.

Even if they live in states that would never in a million years swing red.

[liberal_at_heart]

20. luckily I'm not a Democratic Party memeber, so I don't have to swear a blood oath.

[riqster]

36. I'm not either, and I don't swear oaths of this sort. But

I will vote AGAINST every single god-damned, motherfucking "Republican" I can.

I don't care if the Dems run a cheese log against a Reep, I'll vote for that cheese log.

Ohio is now a one-party Hell under Republican occupation. If a few more people had voted Dem, much harm could have been avoided.

[Just Saying]

58. Agreed

They gerrymandered our state to the point where the people in the corn fields have way more power than in the population bases (Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus, Dayton).

So how do we get rid of them?

[riqster]

74. GOTV is all we can do.

Same as we've done before. Register new voters and get them to the polls,

With enough voters, most election rigging techniques do not work, and it makes it possible to at least stop the Reeps some of the time.

[nomorenomore08]

78. So you won't even vote *against* the Republican candidate?

That's what I did last year, in spite of all my qualms about Obama.

[quinnox]

10. its just a wee bit early for this

kind of thing. Maybe when we get in the year 2016, we can get the daily and weekly oaths and so on, as usual.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

11. Of course, so they can disregard you when elected.

Blind allegiance provides no incentive to do the right thing.

I'm aware that my opinion is not popular, but if the Democratic nominee doesn't represent my interests, I will not vote. It, of course, goes without saying that I will not vote for a Republican.

[riqster]

12. Electoral math in our country is Binary

That means your NOT voting for the Dem turns into a vote FOR the Reep.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

13. If that's the case, then our vote means absolutely nothing.

I'm just entertaining your assertion, however.

By keeping my vote, I am sending a message. My vote isn't a given so that the party can do whatever it wants. My vote has to be earned.

[riqster]

16. Actually, they mean a lot.

300 votes in Florida would have kept Bush from stealing the White House. Far more than 300 people withheld their votes, or cast them for protest candidates.

That is what "keeping your vote" means.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

22. No, according to your binary rule ...

... it means nothing. Especially, if one part of that binary behaves and enacts policies very similar to the other part of that binary.

No choice, no vote.

[riqster]

23. There is always a choice.

If someone chooses to hold dear to their ideals no matter what else, and thousands of people died as a result of their purity, was that person really pure? Or was he or she just an insular, echo-chamber-dwelling that failed to realize that they were part of a greater whole, and that their actions had consequences as a result?

THAT is what the "pure people" did in 2000. They withheld their votes as a gesture of their ideological purity, and as a result people died in Iraq, New York, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

Those withheld votes didn't "mean nothing". Those choices meant dead people.

"Elections have consequences". And so do our actions during those elections.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

24. Who's applying the purity test?

Vote Democratic or else!

Or my withholding my vote for someone who represents my interests?

I think the answer is clear.

[riqster]

30. I would say there is another alternative:

Using your vote to prevent greater harm. If you choose not to do so, you enable that greater harm: or, at least, do nothing to stop it from happening.

From your statements in this exchange, it sounds as though your decision tree is very narrowly focused on yourself, your ideology, and how you will feel about your vote.

My decision tree has more branches than that. I would LIKE a candidate who represents my interests, but I will settle for one that can at least not increase the devastation caused by the "Republican Party".

Here's another stat: 8 votes. That is how many votes it took last election to turn Ohio into a completely one-party state, where the Reeps are running wild, starving the poor, oppressing the women, fattening the rich and destroying the environment.

The whole "no difference, no choice" canard falls apart: because, you see, it WAS DIFFERENT when the Dems could at least slow the Reeps down. Now, it's ALEC, Koch and Co. with no brakes on the train. It is worse when the Reeps can do whatever they damned well wish.

It IS WORSE now than it was before. Quantitatively. And it is worse because a mere 8 voters didn't cast a ballot for a single Dem in a single State House district.

Had eight people dragged themselves to the polls and voted for a Dem, much harm could have been averted. But they didn't. So now poor people are being harmed. Women are being harmed. Disabled people are being harmed.

And they are being harmed because people like you said what you say, and acted as you propose we act.

But hey, don't let the cries of hungry children, the groans of the elderly, or the cries of women dying because they lost their health care to a one-party Reep government disturb you in your tower of purity. Because what matters the suffering of the people when you have made that ever-so-pure choice?

[magellan]

84. Funny how it's never those who voted R who are blamed.

The only time Repub voters were held to account it was done by the foreign press:



No one is responsible for putting Repubs in office except those who vote for them. You can whine all day long about people who refuse to hold their nose or are so fed up with the whole rotten show they've disengaged, but your anger isn't going to move them. I've lived through a few elections on DU and even though I knew I was voting Dem come what may, the proselytizing and browbeating that's done here was a huge turnoff. If I hadn't already made up my mind, it would have made me withhold my vote completely.

Maybe some votes were lost because of the disturbing behavior on DU.

[riqster]

87. Those who vote R aren't likely to be here, so why address them here?

And anybody who would help Reeps win by stamping their widdle feet and going home to sulk because their pwecious widdle feewings got aww huwted is not somebody I'd trust in any case.

[magellan]

88. There aren't many Repubs in the UK either.

As for helping the other side, if that were the intent they would vote R. And if you don't trust them in any case then quit bitching.

[riqster]

91. Wrong. Let me explain basic math to you

American elections are binary. Whichever side gets more votes wins. There are two ways to get more votes:

Have more of your side turn out to vote;

Depress turnout on the other side.

A lot of people in the center and on the left are susceptible to the second approach. So I call it out when I see it.

And if you don't care for what I have to say, feel free to ignore me.

[magellan]

96. Gee thanks

If it weren't for you I wouldn't understand how it works.

How about I explain something basic to you. Your condescension and thuggish attitude are about as attractive as dog shit wrapped with a ribbon. It's unpleasant...and ironically representative of the New Dems and how they treat anyone who doesn't like what they do.

I don't need to ignore you. I simply no longer have any respect for you.

[riqster]

98. I'd suggest you're not any more tolerant or polite than I.

And I care nothing for your attitude towards me. All I care about is that America not turn back to the Right.

There are many others who can use honeyed words. They have their audiences.

Others need a brick upside the head. They are my audience.

And if I lose the respect of every person on Earth, but just enough people hear me and get out and vote Dem, I'm OK with that.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

41. So, you're going to rape me

... because you disagree with me? Purity.

[GoneFishin]

55. Yep. If they don't represent my interests they don't get my vote.

If they don't earn my vote then they don't get my vote. If that dynamic produces unfortunate side effects, too bad.

If people don't ever register their disgust with the system then it will never change. As long as they can reliably and predictably strong arm us into voting for their 1% approved candidates the system will stay the same for ever.

If change ever occurs it will be inspired by those of us that refuse to be manipulated into voting for the terrible over the horrendous.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

57. Agreed. Not voting is just as effective in influencing politicians as voting is.

You want my vote? Earn it.

[Egalitarian Thug]

94. Dude, look at who you are addressing.

They're freaking out, in a state of sheer panic over their leader's decision to show his true colors. Right now, at this very moment, the entire east coast chapter of the Democratic Faithful club are making sacrifices to whatever fantasy they subscribe to, that the republicans will continue to put forth another full card of clown car morons so that they can have some hope of retaining any relevance.

Have pity on the poor suckers, they bet the farm on a bunch of con artists and their entire sense of self worth is riding on not being completely embarrassed next year.

[MineralMan]

14. As will I.

Regardless of who I may support during the primaries, I will campaign for and vote for the Democratic candidate in the General Election. Period.

In the meantime, I'll be working on the 2014 election. We won't have any actual candidates for the Presidency until that is over. Then, we can start the debate.

GOTV 2014!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. "Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may may cherish the sweetest reflection

"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." John Quincy Adams

[riqster]

33. Please see Post 30.

A sweet reflection for you just might lead to horrible anguish for others of our fellow human beings.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. Or, vice versa.

Aren't you voting your principles when you vote? That is, if your principles are to vote for the "lesser of two evils"?

[riqster]

37. Interesting question.

Thanks, it's something to ponder. I shall do so.

However, I'd phrase it as "first of all, do no harm" as opposed to "the lesser of two evils".

[1StrongBlackMan]

92. Your “vote” …

May not be lost; but the election and all the things that come with the election’s result, e.g., SCOTUS appointments, Congressional leadership and Chairs, etc., might be though.

So the question one must ask oneself is: “Would I rather get some of what I want, or everything I don’t want.

Now to make it real … I wanted a single payer healthcare system (or, failing that, a public option). If I had voted my principle, I could have gone to bed at night knowing that I had done the principled thing; but I would also would have had to try and sleep knowing that all the people that I know that had pre-existing conditions (that are now insurable) would have continued to be uninsurable; but I’m sure my principles would have rocked me to sleep … I would have had to sleep with the knowledge that a 10 year old juvenile cancer surviving family aquaintence, that hit her “life-time” pay-out limit at age 4, would be looking at living another 70+ years without insurance coverage; but again, I’m sure my principles would have rocked me to sleep. I can point to hundreds of instances where I have acted on my humanity and concern for others, rather than stood by my principles …. And each time, I slept well at night.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

95. So, you did vote for your principles. Didn't you?

[1StrongBlackMan]

103. I guess I did ...

Thanks for helping me clarify that on a couple of levels ... the Me vs. the Us; the Real vs the Dream. I voted for my/the highest principle ... survival (for myself and others) in real life; rather than, fidelity to some abstract dream.

[ecstatic]

17. Exactly! Are purists paying attention?!?!

Are they watching what's unfolding in Texas, North Carolina, the list goes on and on... We have more than one issue to worry about!! Why are some people so quick to forget history?!!! It's infuriating!

[cali]

27. what can I do about what's unfolding in TX, NC, etc?

What difference to what's going on, has having a dem president made? And I'm all for having a dem president. But tell me, why should this "purist" vote for a someone who doesn't reflect my values, when I live in Vermont? What difference will my not voting for Clinton if she's the nominee make? It's not like all the other dems in the state will do the same. Vermont will go for Clinton in a landslide if she's the nom.

[woo me with science]

18. Another content-free loyalty thread!

Yay!

Meanwhile, our government is still spying on us.

U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court Secrecy Defended By Obama Administration
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/06/us-foreign-intelligence-surveillance-court_n_3552427.html

[liberal_at_heart]

19. I'll support the democratic nominee if the democratic nominee is a liberal.

[Phlem]

69. +1

I don't what's going to happen from now till then but you are 100% spot on. I remember his acceptance speech when he said "I'm a new Democrat."

Fuck that shit I want a liberal Democrat, not the "new", third way, lying bullshit Democrats of today. Blue dogs need to go, and "new" Democrats can go to hell.

Perfect title!

-p

[1-Old-Man]

21. I've been doing that for 50 years, and I just can't do it anymore.

[DesertFlower]

26. so will i. nt

[DinahMoeHum]

28. Vote Progressive in the primaries, vote Democratic in the general election.

Personally, I'd rather have the candidate be BOTH Progressive and Democratic; but you can't have everything in this life.

[riqster]

34. Bingo.

I was working for Denny Kooch in the 2008 primaries. After he was out of the running, I voted for Obama in the general election. It was either him or President Fucking Palin.

Easy choice to make.

[NoPasaran]

31. I always do

For all the good it does.

[movonne]

38. Is it very bad times that we have to take whatever

the dems decide to run and support...but I would also be forced to vote for a DEM...(any dem)...

[AnotherMcIntosh]

39. If Cheney declares himself to be a Democrat (D) and is nominated, would you support him?

What about Lieberman?

[Crow73]

40. Okay

So say that Rand Paul switches parties?

[LaydeeBug]

46. if Rand Paul switches parties, he will NEVER get the 2016 nomination. nt

[mac56]

66. And what if an eagle flies overhead and drops an anvil on top of me?

[MNBrewer]

42. I will likely support the Democratic Party's nominee with some reservation

Does that count?

[theaocp]

43. ...and now, the Democratic Party

can ignore you. You're in the bag. Thanks.

[jtuck004]

44. "because not doing so would make something much, much worse inevitable." That was the reason we

were given for supporting the criminal behaviour of the banks, which has led to 6 million families being foreclosed on, so investors can then buy up the single most important vehicle for wealth accumulation for most Americans, and rent it back to them, which we as taxpayers continue to pay profits to the now wildly profitable banks at the rate of $40 to $85 billion a month, while the largest chunk of job creation in this, a GOOD month, are from positions that pay $15,000 a year or less.

It no longer persuades me.

[raindaddy]

45. Something much worse is happening anyway.

Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi and Barrack Obama aren't providing the leadership needed to reverse the corporate takeover of all three branches of government.

I'm only voting for Democratic wing of the Democratic Party!

[Maedhros]

48. Of course, by promising unqualified support for the Democratic nominee

you are ensuring that he/she will not feel any pressure at all to adopt progressive or even liberal positions, freeing them up to play to the middle/right for votes and to govern from that position.

Liberals and progressives have got to start demanding liberal and progressive policies from our candidates. Kowtowing to the right should have consequences, else it becomes the path of least resistance.

[Maedhros]

51. If you disagree with my position, address it.

I assume you think it is wrong to demand that Democratic candidates champion liberal/progressive policies?

[Herlong]

56. That is was I demand from the grassroots.

I want Democratic candidates to win elections. WIN ELECTIONS!!!! I want them to WIN. I want the rest of us to FIGHT. If it were the other way, Dennis Kucinich would be president.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

63. A Democrat won the White House!

One that I voted for twice!

And I got Republican policies in return! Wooohooo!

Nope, not next time. If you are a progressive and will enact progressive policies, I will vote for you. Otherwise, I will withhold my vote and influence the party paradigm in that manner.

[Maedhros]

76. In a democracy, it's better that the politicians respond to the demands of the electorate

rather than vice-versa, as you would have it.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

60. I was threatened with rape upthread for holding the same position as yours.

My, the Stalinesque type of arguments are unconvincing.

[NYC_SKP]

107. Skinner just banned this member, Herlong, thank god!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=124439&sub=trans

[Herlong]

49. AND I"LL FIGHT TO GET HIM/HER ELECTED

All caps intended.

[LaydeeBug]

72. ME TOO! nt

[mountain grammy]

52. Of course, because any Democrat is better than every Republican

and that's a fact. If my Democratic candidate is not all I want him/her to be, I have to suck it up, because it's not all about me. I'm lucky. I'm collecting social security retirement, covered by Medicare, and enjoying life with supplemental retirement income because I had good union jobs and earned a decent living most of my life. Now, opportunities are hard to find. Not everyone's a rock star, an inventor, or an heir. Most people are workers, like I was, and work, these days, is underpaid and underappreciated. Many full time workers couldn't pay the rent without the assistance of SNAP and other programs, and would, literally, die without Medicaid. Republicans would gleefully ditch all those programs.

Right now, we have to not lose what we've gained while we inch forward on many issues, the evil Republicans on the Supreme Court keep taking us backward. The parties are NOT ALIKE!

I have principals and values, just like anyone, but it's not about me. It's about not losing it all while we wait for another FDR or JFK.

[Just Saying]

62. Is there really another option?

[Rebellious Republican]

64. Damn straight, I am one with you LaydeeBug! K&R

[Lil Missy]

67. I'll support my cat's furry asshole before I'd vote for a Repub. n/t

[DCBob]

71. Hard to believe we even have to make posts like this on a site like this.

Some on left seem to have forgotten how evil Republicans can be.

[Tarheel_Dem]

77. +1. They've become consumed with a libertarian agenda. Meanwhile, the shit that's happening...

in the states is regressively frightening. Things that "liberals" used to hyperventilate about are suddenly a non-plus. Voting rights, Women's rights, Minority rights, Student rights..you name it, the Repukes in these states are attacking those rights. But in chambers like this we're being told that Obama might be listening in on your calls to your favorite sex hotline. It's not only stupid, but it's self defeating.

Some here would like nothing better than a repeat of the 2000 disaster in some vain hope that they'll teach the Democratic party some utopian lesson they've created in their own heads. My only solace is that decisions affecting the outcome of our primaries aren't made in places like LU.

[DCBob]

83. We definitely do not need another repeat of 2000.

Hopefully the confused left comes to their senses before we have any elections.

[Tarheel_Dem]

85. "Hope springs eternal".

[Jim Lane]

73. Support as in vote, yes. Support as in volunteer or donate, maybe.

I take it as given that the Republican nominee for President will be substantially worse than the Democrat. Therefore, I'll vote Democratic.

For my money and time, though, Hillary Clinton (or whoever) isn't competing against Jeb Bush (or whomever). She's competing against the likes of Alan Grayson. I'll be doing more for the national Democratic ticket if it's headed by a genuine progressive.

[nomorenomore08]

79. Not voting doesn't make you special or superior.

You don't get to look down on "those idiots/dupes" while you sit on your fat fucking ass.

Obviously not addressed to the OP...

[Rowdyboy]

80. As I've done since 1976...Anything else is unthinkable....

And the worst Democrat nominated during my lifetime TOWERS over the best Republican.

[nomorenomore08]

100. +1

I mean, ultimately people can do whatever the hell they want, but as much as some might hate the idea of voting for the lesser of two evils, what's the use of making it easier for the greater evil to win?

[Douglas Carpenter]

81. this is why the Democrats can ignore their base and the Republicans have to appease their base

Or as David Frum put it, "The Republican Party fears its base. The Democratic Party loathes its base."

[Tarheel_Dem]

86. "The Democratic Party loathes its base".

Not all of it.

[liberal_at_heart]

102. that's okay I'm gone. I am done with the abuse. I have joined my husband in being an independent.

Eventually those in an abusive relationship leave. Sometimes it takes a long time, and the abuser gets the feeling they can continue doing it with no consequences. I am done being abused by the democratic party.

[Jamaal510]

82. P.S. And let us all give said nominee a Dem. majority in both Houses.

It is paramount to vote in every single Congressional election. Congress is who gets to change the laws, and the Senate has the ability to allow or block appointees. No more protest voting or sitting out elections.

[LaydeeBug]

93. ^^^THIS^^^ nt

[DavidDvorkin]

89. Same here -- unless

the GOP nominates someone more liberal than the Democratic nominee, and on a liberal platform, accompanied by liberal candidates all the way down the GOP ladder.

Hahahahahahahaha!

[madokie]

90. I will never ever vote for a republicon, ever

To be honest it is getting harder with each new revelation on what they're doing for me to remain civil to the ones I know.

I will never ever not vote either

[arely staircase]

97. Hell yes. Becaue I am a Democrat like;

Obama
Clinton
Carter
LBJ
JFK
HST
FDR

Fuck all the rest.

Go Democrats!

[steve2470]

99. I will support the nominee, of course, as usual since 1976

Let's hope we get back the House in 2014 and get at least 60 seats in the Senate.

[dtom67]

101. In 2014 and beyond...

I believe I will start voting for local Dems ONLY, as it seems that the higher the Office, the less responsive politicians are to their constituents.

Sorry, kids.

No matter who we run in 2016 for President, it will surely be a corporate/ Wall street lackey.

Unless we overturn citizens United and get all that Elite money out of the System.

But I do not see much possibility of that.