Vatican Must Pay Taxes

[dynasaw]

Time we emulate the Italian government by taxing churches . . .especially if they insist on getting involved in politics.

Italy's Catholic Church faces an annual multi-million euro bill over government plans to strip it of its tax-exempt status.

Prime Minister Mario Monti has announced the Vatican must pay taxes on non-religious property, from which it previously enjoyed an exemption.

The annual cost could be up to 720m euros ($945m; £598m) according to municipal government bodies.

Italy's Catholic Church has 110,000 properties, worth about 9bn euros.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17072211

[Justice wanted]

1. How does one country tax another country? Vatican City is a country -known as the smallest

country in the world BUT IT IS A COUNTRY.

[eppur_se_muova]

3. Italy is taxing properites in Italy ... any country can levy taxes within its own borders.

Makes no difference who the owner is.

[Justice wanted]

6. BUT that's just it. Vatican city IS NOT part of Italy. IT Is a seperate country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City

[eppur_se_muova]

10. And the properties being taxed are in Italy, NOT Vatican City. See the article. nt

[Justice wanted]

13. YES I saw the article and I still ask my question. So if the United States have an Embassey in

Italy does Italy have the right to tax that Emabassy WHEN in theory it is U.S. soil.

[unblock]

24. by analogy, it wouldn't be the embassy that's being taxed.

you're right the embassy is u.s. soil and italy can't tax the u.s. embassy in italy.

however, if the united states also owned a hotel or a parking lot or a deli in italy, *not* on embassy property, then *that* property could be taxed. that's what italy is doing to the church.

[madokie]

4. I think the Vatican wants it to be a country more than it really is

I'm sure happy that I'm not Catholic or religious at all

[Justice wanted]

18. It is a country. It is known as the smallest country in the world BUT it is a country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City


(I am a travel and toursim major. This one thing I learned.)

[Drahthaardogs]

22. Vatican Cit is the world's smallest country.

The Pope is not only leader of the Roman Catholic Church, he is also Head of State of a Country. Vatican City is NOT an Italian property.

[marmar]

5. The Vatican's properties aren't just in Vatican City.

nt

[Justice wanted]

7. So by Italy's logic. Since the U.S. has an Embassy in Italy. Italy can tax that property?

[marmar]

9. You're comparing a hostel or a mall to an embassy?

nt

[Justice wanted]

12. But that just it. If you want to get techinque. a church is like a embassy in a country.

remember the old term Sanctuary . A person went into a church seeking protection or fleeing from authorities could request sanctuary just like a Russian can requst sanctuary in the U.S. for politcial reasons or what not.

[marmar]

14. Embassies and consulates tend to be exempt from taxation.....

....... not commercial enterprises the Vatican runs, like shopping malls and hostels as mentioned in the article. I sincerely doubt that someone at a mall is seeking sanctuary.

[Justice wanted]

16. But that's just it. Does one country have the right to tax another country?

[marmar]

17. If they're operating commercial enterprises on their soil, hell yes.

nt

[thucythucy]

33. If you want to get technical

a church is not like an embassy in a country.

"Sanctuary" is a religious, not a diplomatic convention. One can enter a Baptist church and claim sanctuary. What nation do Baptist churches represent?

And a Russian cannot enter a GM dealership in Russia and ask for sanctuary for political or any other reason, and have that request respected by Russian or any other law.

[Yo_Mama]

30. No, but again, whether the property is taxed goes by purpose/usage

If the US government bought up a string of Italian supermarkets, of course Italy would tax them just like all the other stores in Italy.

The Catholic church in Italy owns a ton of purely commercial property. It owns malls, farmland, housing developments, etc.

[Denver Donkeys]

35. One glance of Demon and Angels movie

would tell you THAT too.

Most of the Vatican's properties are in Rome and all over Italy.

Churches are properties and it is owned by the Catholic Church in Vatican.

[thucythucy]

32. Are you trying to tell us

that any property owned by the Catholic Church is an embassy of the Vatican, and thus under all the protections granted diplomats and embassies? So therefore, every priest and nun, and every employee of a Catholic institution, is an ambassador of a foreign country, and so has diplomatic immunity?

Under this theory, no nation would be able to prosecute pedophile priests, who would all be rated as ambassadors.

That's patently ridiculous. It's a doctrine that goes back to the Middle Ages, when Thomas Becket tried to shield rapist priests from local English courts, arguing that priests could only be tried in church courts. There isn't a nation on earth (aside from perhaps the Vatican) that subscribes to such nonsense.

There is a Vatican ambassador/embassy in most nations, called the Papal Nuncio. These enjoy all the usual diplomatic courtesies.

Let me put it this way: If the US government owns shares of General Motors (which it does), this does not mean that every GM dealership, and every GM representative anywhere else in the world enjoys diplomatic immunity or freedom from foreign taxes. Similarly, just because Israel is an independent, Jewish state, this does not mean that every Temple or every Jewish institution (i.e. Beth Israel Hospital, Brandeis University) is covered by diplomatic immunity. This is only extended to certified Israeli embassies and consulates. The US and other nations can tax these other, non-diplomatic institutions as they please.

And so Italy has an absolute right to tax Catholic church properties, if it chooses to do so. And Catholic institutions are everywhere in the world under the juresdiction of local law and authority. The status of the Vatican as an independent nation is entirely beside the point.

[mmonk]

2. We can sell it as taking care of the deficit problem.

[malaise]

8. About time

Rec

[Yo_Mama]

11. Churches in the US already pay taxes on commercial property

Always have, always will. Otherwise every McDonald's in the country would be owned by a church....

Italy is just catching up to us.

[Justice wanted]

15. okay... BUT what commerical property do churches own? Are you refering to a recpetion/banquet

building?

That's one thing BUT this is one country saying that another country emabassy or property is allowed to be tax by them.


IF the United States bought Buckingham Palace and moved the Congress into it. Would the United Kingdom have a right to tax it? Or does it become U.S. soil?

[Yo_Mama]

20. No, people in this thread have it wrong

They are not taxing the Vatican. Italy is taxing commercial property that the Catholic church owns IN ITALY. The article gives the example of homes and shopping malls.

Italy is not taxing the Vatican, which is a separate state. It is not taxing churches, convents, seminaries and so forth. Instead, for the first time, Italy is taxing ordinary commercial property which the Catholic church owns and holds for profit within Italy.

There is nothing sensational or extraordinary about this.

[Justice wanted]

21. I don't have it wrong! does one country have a right to tax another country's property? That is

my question!

[Lars39]

23. So you think foreign owners of property here in US

Should not pay property taxes on those US properties?

[Justice wanted]

25. I'm not talking about INDIVIDUALS I'm talking about a country owning property in another country.

[Lars39]

29. Why on earth should there be any difference?

[thucythucy]

34. CITGO is owned by the government

of Venezuela. Are you telling us that every CITGO gas station and gas truck in the US is under diplomatic protection and enjoys tax exempt status?

[Yo_Mama]

26. Of course they do

Suppose the Chinese government owned a string of gas stations in the US. Are you suggesting that the US would not tax those gas stations just like all the other ones? This is not actually far off the mark - state-owned Chinese enterprises are investing heavily in gas fracking leases in the US right now. They will pay taxes just like any other such enterprise.

What are not generally taxed are non-profit educational, diplomatic, and charitable properties, no matter the ownership. Property taxation goes by use and not by ownership. Embassies are not taxed.

Italy is not taxing property in the Vatican, because the Vatican is a separate state within the Italian state. Italy is taxing property that the Catholic church owns in Italy proper (not within the Vatican) that is used for commercial purposes but owned by Catholic entities.

[Drahthaardogs]

27. The headline is misleading.

It should read "Italy to Church Catholic Properties not affiliated with religious Usage". Italy obvioiusly cannot levy taxes on Vatican City, since it is a separate country. It can, however, levy taxes on Church property within Italy's borders and is going to revoke tax exempt status for non-religious properties in Italy, NOT Vatican City.

[Justice wanted]

28. I AM NOT DUMB!!!!!

[Yo_Mama]

31. To respond to your question

If the United States bought Buckingham Palace, certainly it would not be able to move Congress into it due to the fact that the Constitution has a few things to say about the location of Congress.

But suppose the US converted Buckingham Palace to a very ostentatious and obnoxious embassy? In that case, it would not be taxed (just as the UN buildings and properties in NYC are not taxed).

However if the US bought Buckingham Palace and converted it into a very pricey rental luxury housing development, then the UK would of course tax it. Again, taxation in countries goes by purpose/usage of property, not by the ownership of property. The commercial property of the Catholic church in Italy has been a notable exception to that common rule and that exception dates back to the Middle Ages.

[Zalatix]

19. Uh oh. The power to tax is the power to destroy. The Vatican is doomed!

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!