Vladimir Putin Is Not an Altruist - streetwiseprofessor.com

[flamingdem]

** Remember that Snowden "ingratiated" before: Greenwald said he would not have published some of the stories that ran in the South China Morning Post. “Whether I would have disclosed the specific IP addresses in China and Hong Kong the NSA is hacking, I don’t think I would have,” Greenwald said. “What motivated that leak though was a need to ingratiate himself to the people of Hong Kong and China.”

Vladimir Putin Is Not an Altruist

Putin has put a condition that Snowden must meet to stay in Russia: he must stop making disclosures that damage “our American partners.” Putin even confesses astonishment that such words came from his mouth.

--

There is a perfectly Machiavellian explanation for this desire to shut down Snowden’s disclosures. Despite Snowden’s Maxwell Smart-like claim that he is immune to torture, and has given nothing to the Russians, it is almost certain that he has given them everything. Indeed, his statements were almost certainly put into his mouth by the Russians who have him under complete control. This information is more valuable, to the extent that the NSA does not know what the Russians have learned. If NSA knows what has been compromised, it can focus its containment efforts and implement targeted fixes. The less certain it is, the more diffuse and indiscriminate its efforts must be-and hence the less effective its efforts will be.

Further public disclosures, though embarrassing to the NSA and the US, will provide information about what Snowden accessed and stole. Even a revelation about a piece of information held in a particular location will alert NSA that other information in that location has been compromised. Yes, forensics will help it track those things down, but not perfectly. Every piece of information NSA has about what has been compromised is extraordinarily valuable. Meaning that Putin and the FSB have every incentive to keep that information to themselves. Meaning that further public revelations harm Putin.

Don’t let Putin fool you folks. He does not have US interests in mind. To the contrary. Knowledge is power. He knows what he has: NSA doesn’t know, for sure. Therefore, public disclosures about NSA operations reduce Putin’s power. Which gives him an extremely strong motive to use his control of Snowden to reduce the flow of Snowden’s information from Greenwald, Poitras, etc.


- See more at: http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=7453#sthash.ZAmCqPRR.dpuf

[napoleon_in_rags]

1. "public disclosures about NSA operations reduce Putin’s power."

Correct, so is the USA letting him leave Russia, or would they rather he stay there and shut up? Really, think that through long and hard.

The intelligence game, like the war game, is a complex. Each side in it uses the other side to justify its existence and extreme means, so each side would fail to exist without the other side. Therefore each side depends on their opponents for their livelihood and existence. Therefore the war will never be won, (observe our nation's state of perpetual war for the last decade) the intelligence game will never be over. There is no enemy we can defeat to end war, war itself has to be defeated.

[flamingdem]

2. No, Putin is ex KGB and will do whatever it takes to give the US a black eye

Snowden fits the order perfectly, like he said he's a "Christmas gift" - this is because he's done the calculus and doesn't care about losing the Moscow meeting and knows the US won't pull out of the Olympics. The US lacks leverage at this point.

[napoleon_in_rags]

3. So what's a black eye look like, flamingdem?

Is is
A) Snowden releases the information to the world from somewhere harmless like Bolivia, and the power of the revelations are diluted because everyone knows them including the US. Or
B) Snowden releases everything he knows, in secret to a powerful country like Russia, without the US knowing exactly what info has been compromised.
Isn't it remarkable that the US thinks B is preferable? They prefer the information being given in secret to foreign powers over public disclosure?

[flamingdem]

4. We don't know if it was intended for Snowden to be in Russia

If you've been following you know Assange is connected there. Lots of not so odd coincidences.

They want him back, and the best chance is still via Russia with some deal is my guess, if at all.

[napoleon_in_rags]

6. Oh, it was intended by some one all right:

http://rt.com/news/morales-snowden-rt-interview-760/

Bolivian President Evo Morales has threatened “measures” against European countries in response to the grounding of his plane in Vienna last week, demanding they reveal the source of false information that Edward Snowden was on board.

The mere possibility of Snowden on board was worthy of creating an international incident to that some one.

[flamingdem]

10. ha ha I'm not biting that bait

But I can predict Evo Morales will never know the source of that call, because there wasn't one. There was a lot of confusion.

Catherine and others posted that Portugal and Italy apologized. Guess what the left can distort as well. The news story was that they gave Bolivia explanatory notes.

Thus Spain, France, Italy, Portugal all said they did not deny airspace, except France had confusion about two airlines and misinformation, and Italy explained the scheduling and Portugal told them two days before they could not accomodate refueling but never told them they could not land.

Get used to the new paradigm, DUers quoting RT and abc.es to prove their far left points and promote ties with China, Russia and Iran.

[woo me with science]

5. +100000 Remarkable, indeed.

Excellent, excellent point. And extra points for adding an observation of actual interest to what promised to be the usual stale, smelly pile of propaganda.

So public disclosure is worse than Russia having the information. It certainly paints a telling picture of what *really* frightens the US government, doesn't it.

This observation is OP-worthy, IMO.

[flamingdem]

7. Snowden floated the idea that he has names of agents

That is cause for concern even in your rose colored world.

[woo me with science]

11. I'm certain he has a lot that he has chosen not to release.

Your desperate attempt to distract from the point napoleon-in-rags made is noted.

Why do YOU think the US is so abjectly terrified of public disclosure, that they would prefer to keep Snowden and his information in *Russia* rather than have the information publicly disclosed?

[flamingdem]

14. They don't know what he knows, and if he had help obtaining information

they need to know what happened and need to have him in the USA for that to occur.

[napoleon_in_rags]

12. It really does paint the picture of a complex, doesn't it?

Where each side depends on its opponents to exist - indeed thinks of its opponents as more "with them" than the general populous: The result being a situation where actual enemy combatants and spies are preferable to whistle blowers and peace activists.

All my words are free to use, so if you want to make an OP out of any of this, feel free. I unfortunately don't have time today.

PEace!

[woo me with science]

16. It's very telling.

Thank you for the permission. I put it here: http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10023298038

I hate to keep kicking a propaganda thread, even when there is something important in it like this.

[flamingdem]

17. The point is that the USA wants him returned

and Russia is their best bet.

If your question is motive then that's the answer. If you're wanting to say something else not sure why you're avoiding the practical logistical facts.

[karynnj]

8. You seem to rule out the possibility that Snowden gave Russia EVERYTHING he knows

and everything on his computers.

This means that the possibilities are your B) and the combination of A and B. In that case as both a and b are bad - B is better than A and B. With , the latter Russia still gets everything AND we are later humiliated by releases in "Bolivia".

[napoleon_in_rags]

15. Yes, but does the US know EVERYTHING he knows?

That's the question. In the case of a public disclosure, they would. In the case of a secret disclosure, they would be left guessing.

[karynnj]

59. Except in public disclosures - done piecemeal, they never know for sure

what will come out. In addition, it may be that the framing by Snowden and Greenwald can make things look worse than they are.

[pnwmom]

9. Both China and Russia have almost certainly already gotten everything they need from Snowden

despite his grandiose proclamations.

[flamingdem]

13. From another thread you probably read but adds to your point

and explains why having Snowden there is needed still. They want him to explain and parse the data they probably already have. And there's the timeframe should Putin want to get rid of Snowden he'll dump him after he's done. Maybe to the USA, maybe elsewhere.

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews=41139&tx_ttnews=7&cHash=ff9ec857407acb4097be21d8aeb7ae1b#.UehlulPZc5L

--- snip

Putin may be annoyed by the Snowden saga and by the NSA leaker’s apparent reluctance to act as a defector must act, but it seems the Russian intelligence services have insisted that keeping Snowden may work. Snowden apparently has passed on to journalists, including The Guardian columnist Glenn Greenwald, a database of files he had stolen from the NSA; thus, the publication of damaging revelations may continue with Snowden himself gagged and holed up somewhere in Russia. Of course, from the point of view of the Russian intelligence services Snowden’s data discs without Snowden himself to verify their validity are not of much use—not real “documents,” but a collection of files of questionable origin. On the contrary, while holding Snowden (if it is, indeed, possible to tame him into full cooperation), the Russians could work through the database during a genuine debriefing procedure and collect useful insights into the NSA’s work. Serious problems may still arise, however, if Putin decides that Snowden has once again changed his mind, broken his word and is, in fact, continuing to publicly attack the US government and the NSA, using Moscow as a cover. Russian law does not allow the arbitrary expulsion of a person given “temporary refuge status,” but Putin’s wrath is known to have bent Russian law in different directions. It is not absolutely clear whether Snowden understands the actual circumstances he is in, or the rules of the place of his refuge.

[pnwmom]

18. That link doesn't work, but I'd be interested in reading more, if you can find another link. n/t

[flamingdem]

19. The article was moved but here it is on another site

http://russialist.org/russian-intelligence-intends-to-gag-snowden-and-keep-him-in-russia/

[Luminous Animal]

20. From the Street Wise Professor

Today is Milton Friedman’s 100th birthday. I consider myself his intellectual grandson.

http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=6498

You are really mining the dregs of the internet.

[flamingdem]

21. I disagree. A professor who knows about foreign affairs is a fine source

The left commentators on Russia are very unreliable on this subject.

What do they know about Putin, they don't know.

So other than mainstream reports this is expertise to draw upon.

Read whatever you want, I read everything.

[Luminous Animal]

22. Here's more from your source (Psst. He thinks Obama is an idiot.)

Obama is on a roll. A roll of idiocy.

I can hear you say: “Uhm, so what else is news?”
http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=7174

[Luminous Animal]

23. Your "professor" and Obama's teleprompter

So Obama committed a gaffe, in the Michael Kinsley sense of speaking the truth. This is the kind of thing that happens when he doesn’t have his teleprompter in front of him. -

[Luminous Animal]

24. John Kerry is a "witless wonder" says your professor

But Kerry is not the only witless wonder in Obama’s new cabinet.

-

http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=7098

[flamingdem]

25. Like I said I read all sources, at this rate he'd be at home on DU

So what's the difference anymore.

Remember Wikileaks mentioned that Obama is a disgrace and teleprompter reader just last week.

[Pholus]

26. Popcorn, get your popcorn!

I'm betting this isn't too fun for that poster anymore. I do plan to add this one to my compilation of two other posters who are channeling Ann Coulter about liberals rooting for America's enemies first.

[MisterP]

57. but only the Medea Benjamin-Stormfront-Latino-Russian axis believes Snowden!

we Loyalty Brigades are only citing the slimiest of Republicans BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT THE GOP TO WIN WHY CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND US IS IT BECAUSE WE'RE CRAZY AND HAVE NOTHING TO SAY AND HAVEN'T EVER BEEN RIGHT SINCE DU OPENED?!

[Luminous Animal]

27. Obama is "a little man" says "your professor"

How can such a large country have such a little man as president?

And a bonus!
Lindsey Graham is a RINO!

http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=7047

[flamingdem]

28. I'm reading a lot of sources to figure out the Russian connection

like I said I don't care if they're Republican because that's not the info I'm looking for -- some on DU are quoting abc.es and RT - that is covert propaganda and they don't get it.

[Luminous Animal]

50. Limbaugh probably has something to say about the Russian connection too.

Why don't you investigate Rush's website and see if he has any juicy Snowden/Russia comments; and, if so, bring it back to DU. Start a new open, even!

[Pholus]

29. The foreign policy expert professor loves some Bengazi for sure....

I guess I just must not understand foreign policy. After all, I'm a lefty.

[Luminous Animal]

51. Yeah I got bored with the guy when I fell into his Bengazi cesspool.

[Pholus]

32. Another awesome quote from the perfesser...

"For the media in particular treats any questioning of Obama as an intolerable act of lèse-majesté. "

Hmmmmm. Convergence.

[Rex]

30. Putin loves American culture.

Yet, he is still the dictator of a country that traditionally has been our enemy for over half a century.

However, he loves western culture and America.

That doesn't mean he is still not a KGB mastermind and as evil as Darth Vader.

ATM he is holding all the cards, must make him feel powerful to have something over the United States.

[Luminous Animal]

31. Your professor: That odious Obama and Benghazi!

But obviously the most odious figure in this sorry episode is Obama.

The title of this post says that Obama was AWOL. That’s actually a slur on deserters

http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=7038

[flamingdem]

38. Your focus on this guy shows that it's you that doesn't know how to parse information

or you wouldn't be so blunt and linear about this.

I guess people like you only read the Guardian.

[Luminous Animal]

45. Oh I parsed alright and I disagree. Putin won't get his hands on any info because Snowden

doesn't have it anymore and neither does he have the encryption keys.

That is what Snowden meant by the torture remark. Snowden wasn't stating that he is capable of resisting torture. He was stating that torture won't work because he is incapable of retrieving the documents.

Your professor is clueless on many many things.

[flamingdem]

47. Well you seem to know more than many people who speculate

on the topic, we'll see if we ever find out.

[Luminous Animal]

49. Lex parsimoniae, babeeee.

[randome]

55. So you think Snowden deleted documents then stomped on all the hard drives...

...until they were in itty bitty pieces?

He already gave information to Der Spiegel that endangered people's lives.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Luminous Animal]

56. How do you know the documents were ever on his computers? You don't.

Yes. He has shown entire sets of documents to select journalists with the expectation that those journalists will exercise best practices in their reporting. This is no secret. The Guardian has stated this from the beginning.

[Luminous Animal]

33. Your professor says that Obama is truly an ignorant man...

But it is deeply disturbing that Obama, likely ignorantly (for he is truly an ignorant man), explicitly adopts two thirds of a fascist formulation of a political philosophy. -

http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=6975

[Rex]

34. I would call Obama anything BUT ignorant.

On the contrary, he is fully aware of what is going on. The professor guy is clueless or just making shit up to stir the pot.

[flamingdem]

36. You need to quote Greenwald who I also site in the OP

but don't let me interrupt your party!

[Katashi_itto]

35. NSA Phone Snooping Cannot Be Challenged in Court, Feds Say

Still about Snowden?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=542562

[flamingdem]

37. No, about Putin n/t

[Union Scribe]

41. Which is why Snowden's name is used as often as Putin's

in your excerpt?

[flamingdem]

46. I expect to see you post this same complaint

in the pro-Snowden threads.

Why do so many Snowden supporters insist on zero criticism of their boy?

[Katashi_itto]

43. Moving Goal posts eh?

It's really all you can do I guess.

[SoCalDem]

39. Vladimir is

You can take the guy outta the KGB..but you NEVER take the KGB outta the guy

[flamingdem]

60. fantastic shot

he seems to relish the role of scary guy!

[bluestate10]

40. Don't awaken the doe-eyed Snowden apologists while they sleep.

A renowned spymaster being a humanitarian? Oh well, I have heard of stranger comparisons.

[flamingdem]

42. They have to work extra hard knowing Snowden is under Russian control

I can just hear "Oh no he's not!" like he is some special case.

Even his lawyer who appeared out of nowhere to do probono work is hooked up with the FSB, he's no independent, and would Putin ever allow that? I don't think so..

[Luminous Animal]

48. Except in the professor's feverish imagination, the liberals that the professor reviles

do not consider Putin a humanitarian.

[Laelth]

44. Highly speculative. Suspect source. Not recommended. n/t

-Laelth

[KittyWampus]

52. the commentator presupposes that Snowden actually ever had data worth stealing.

I sincerely doubt he ever did.

This whole thing is more about optics, IMO.

[flamingdem]

53. Valid point, one I hope we can confirm

but the fact he floated the idea of the names of agents was a bit troubling.

That made me wonder if he'd had help getting data.

[randome]

54. And Greenwald's 'dead man's switch'? I think that's the same.

Although Snowden did give documents to Der Spiegel that they said endangered people's lives.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[flamingdem]

58. That's right. It would be kind of Der Spiegel to let on the nature

of what they chose not to print.

Looks like Greenwald and Snowden don't know everything about redacting their material.