Proud Member Of "The Glenn Greenwald Left" Here.
Last edited Tue Jul 23, 2013, 01:32 PM - Edit history (1)
Right Versus Wrong is my barometer for who has credibility and who doesn't.
RIGHT V WRONG!
Greenwald earned his credibility over nearly a decade when it came to issues of Civil Liberties and the near destruction of them by the Bush Administration.
And I'm happy to know who was and still is part of the 'Greenwald Left'.
I know I am on the Right side of issues, not just because of my own assessment of the situation, but by who opposes and who supports my position.
Anti-Greenwald Left:
1) Dick Cheney
2) George W. Bush
3) Ari (the liar) Fleischer.
4) Peter (we count the votes) King
5) John (where are the jobs) Boehner
6)Sarah (I can see Russia from my house) Palin
7) Almost EVERYONE at Faux 'News'.
8) Rush Limbaugh
9) Free Republic
Well, you get the idea.
Even if I knew nothing about the issues about which Progressive Democrats were, are and will continue to be concerned about, just seeing who is opposed them would be enough to assure me that I am on the right side of the issues.
Thanks Glenn Greenwald for never wavering despite the vicious attacks from the Right and even the revelations that the Big Banks were hiring 'security contractors' to smear you, in the pursuit of the facts.
I always wondered who got the HB Gary Contract to smear Greenwald after they were exposed?
CIVIL LIBERTIES was, is and will always will be of huge concern to Progressive Democrats.
Not so much to the other side.
= new reply since forum marked as read
K&R!
even looked at anything he had to say was about eight years ago.
to change my mind about Civil Liberties because someone mentions 'Ron Paul' or/and 'Alex Jones'?
And the uniformity of it makes me wonder where it is emanating from, who is sending out the 'memo'? I would fire them frankly, because it sure isn't going to affect the opinions of anyone with a brain cell working. Quite the opposite in fact.
I know this is probably a silly OP but sometimes you have to respond to silly with silly.
That's the effect they have on me anyway. Wait, maybe that's the idea... 
well said 
Now that you mention it,
I HAVE seen a lot of posts Blaming the Poor, Blaming Unions lately.
If you promise "CHANGE",
you had better deliver.
[font size=5]Obama's Army for “CHANGE”, Jan. 21, 2009[/font]
such as those we have been seeing here lately. The Left should not even comment in those threads. The Left needs to go on the offensive, which I have no problem admitting, was the purpose of this OP.
weapons that are right there for the taking. Or 'taking the bull by the horns'. 
and knock down that effort to use GG to frame the left.
after spending a whole lot of years in the early Bush era, arguing with the Right. Trust me, you cannot reason with those who do not think for themselves, they only understand their own language.
Where ever we have to look to find it.
Besides, I never played this game before, so thought I'd give it a try!
I still don't know what to make of the OP.
Thanks for posting. Commenting so I can watch when I get home.
Thanks again!
you know, the one that had the 'Glenn Greenwald Left' in the title and point out that the whole OP was based on a false premise since Greenwald is NOT on the left?
Lol, I didn't think so:
mixed forums where I first encountered the far right and learned for the first time how incredibly nasty human beings can actually be, not to mention how lacking in logic they were. I had no idea there were Democratic forums at the time, so I thought that this was it in terms of political discussion on the internet.
However, I learned more about politics from those far right wingers than I would have had I been somewhere where we all agreed.
This is exactly how I feel too about the 'anti-left' that has made its appearance in recent years on Democratic forums:
Sometimes I have a sense of deja vu regarding it all. And, I have to say, the nastiness of the far right ensured that there would never be a remote chance that I would ever want to belong to a party that contained those kinds of people. I am afraid that what we are now seeing regarding the assaults on the Left from the so-called 'left' will have the same effect on many people. The Right fiercely hated 'The Left' also, even used some of the same verbiage to attack them.
I find it refreshing to talk to someone, such as yourself, who is capable of making their points without the vitriol. Believe it or not, DU used to be filled with people like at one time. Many have left, sadly as it is often a waste of time sparring with anti-Left commenters, on the right or the left.
Thank you for your comment. We do have much more serious issues to address but I will never allow these Third Way attacks to go unanswered whenever I see them. Here or anywhere else I may be.
You are putting words in my answer to you that are not there.
BTW: There were DU'ers who felt we shouldn't push for Single Payer because it was asking more than could be passed by Congress...and there are some who've been here a long time who excused the give away to Wall Street when Obama appointed many of the ones who could have intervened to stop it...or were complicit in the Deregulation that caused it in the first place. What about some Democrats not standing up against cuts in Food Stamps for the poor in the Farm Bill re-authorization and those who were fine with the Chained CPI in the Simpson-Bowles in Congress and here on DU.
It's obvious that neither here nor in our Party is everyone on the same page with what you describe as being a "Liberal." But, there are those of us on the Left who are attacked for not being "centrist/compromising" enough. And that fuels the fire. So, when you try to make an issue of what political views Greenwald has (which has a tone of discrediting him and his reporting) then you are really making "him" the issue and not the body of work he's done for years in his reporting in his original blog, then for Salon and now for Guardian. You focused on two paragraphs to tie him to Bush. Others call him a Paulite Libertarian. I think he "is what he is" and many of us on the Left and Center enjoy reading him.
is an OP that doesn't imply that he has a heroic standing?
It is the OP that tied the metric for credibility in a person as
Right Versus Wrong is my barometer for who has credibility and who doesn't.
Greenwald didn't get it wrong on the question of the Walla Walla City Council but on the most important question before Congress to date in the 21st Century
So using the OPs metric I would find GG didn't do very well. Beyond that GG continued to see no difference between the two parties in the last two elections and is a major Paul apologist, although he likes to wave away Paul's "unfortunate past baggage" with the same light stroke that he excuses his own.
Those that have strong feelings for Greenwald or Assange (either for or against) are the ones that are practicing "dichotomized thinking". If you are such a strong supporter of Greenwald then that would apply to you, not me. You have misinterpreted my entire argument in assuming that I am a Greenwald hater, which would be a black and white viewpoint. For me I take the most clearly articulated NON dichotomized position on Greenwald on DU: that he is neither a hero nor a villain.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023322707
As to the question of civil liberties.
You may get yourself exercised about the use of phone records as an investigative tool. Fine. I am willing to discuss that but before we elevate its importance to the end all of the civil rights record do me one favor: show me one victim who had the federal government knock on his door because of the use of these records. The concern about its potential misuse is fine but in the real world this administration has brought forward a substantial increase in civil rights of real people in the US.
You may not be that connected to immigrant communities in the US but I live and work in them. All of my family are born outside of the US and all of their significant others come from outside of the US. One of my future son in laws is an undocumented worker.
From 2000 to 2008 the Bush administration at various times used ICE to go to Hispanic neighborhoods and pick up thousands of law abiding undocumented workers:
http://revcom.us/a/104/ice-raids-en.html
1200 Immigrants Arrested in Massive ICE Sweep in Los Angeles
At 5:15 a.m. on August 30, Immigration Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents converged at a supermarket parking lot in Maywood, California. Armed and wearing bulletproof vests, they looked through a list of the names and addresses of targeted people before descending upon homes and apartment complexes in the neighborhoods where so-called “criminal aliens” live. This was one of many raids that have taken place throughout Southern California in the past two weeks.
In total 1,200 people have been detained in these massive raids, and at least 600 of those arrested have already been deported. ICE boasts that this is the largest operation they have conducted in the U.S. so far. Most of the arrests took place in Los Angeles—with many people also being picked up in Orange County, Riverside, San Bernardino, and Ventura County.
As word spread, shopping centers and neighborhoods that are usually full of life and activity became still. Teachers at ESL schools reported dramatically low attendance. A 19-year-old student from Guatemala told Revolution, “I spent six months in jail in San Antonio because I didn’t have papers when I was 16 years old. They deported me, but I risked it again and came back. Imagine what it feels like to know that you could be grabbed at any moment—I just want to send money to my family. I’m no criminal!”
People in the targeted neighborhoods said that many of the arrests have been made at dawn while people are getting ready to go to work or families are still asleep. Now, people don’t open the door to anyone or talk about the whereabouts of their neighbors to anyone they don’t know.
Immediately after getting control of the government Obama stopped these real civil rights abuses that constituted real "knocks on the door".
He directed ICE to stop deportations of long term undocumented residents that have no criminal ties.
He extended temporary protection status to hundreds of thousands of people. In fact you can't find statistics on it because the President has done it with many different classes. My future son in law, an undocumented worker, carries around a government ID that keeps his civil liberties safe.
Here is an example of just one of his executive orders and how it affects real people and real civil rights:
(CNN) -- Long lines formed at help centers and lawyers' office across America Wednesday as thousands of young, undocumented immigrants began applying for relief from deportation.
They took advantage of one of the biggest immigration policy changes in years. An executive order by President Barack Obama allows those who entered the country illegally as children to remain and work without fear of deportation for at least two years.
A crowd formed at Chicago's Navy Pier Wednesday to get help from immigration lawyers and fill out forms.
. . .
The forms were made available two months after Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said that people who arrived in the United States as children may request consideration of deferred action for a period of two years subject to renewal, and upon approval would be eligible for work authorization.
As many as 1.7 million youths may qualify for the program, according to the Pew Hispanic Center, a project of the Pew Research Center.
Dubbed Consideration of Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, the deferral program was created in June under an executive order signed by President Barack Obama
So in my people's eyes you and Greenwald are the hypocrite because you place so much emphasis on a theoretical issue (use of meta data) with no identifiable victims and fail to see the real civil rights protection that the President has extended to 11 million law abiding undocumented workers. Greenwald doesn't take any of these real civil rights protections when he lambasts the Administration and here is the real irony: Apparently Greenwald lives in Brazil because he is denied the right to bring his same sex partner into the US. This is a real civil rights violation. This administration has done more to fight that issue and extend civil rights to same sex couples than any other.
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-obama-gay-marriage-benefits-20130627,0,4035740.story
Responding to a question about the same-sex-marriage decisions, Obama said that in the weeks leading up to the court’s decision, he had asked the White House counsel’s office to work with Justice Department lawyers to “comb through every federal statute” to look at the potential effect of striking down the federal law, known as DOMA. The act barred legally married same-sex couples from receiving federal benefits that are otherwise available to married people, such as joint-filing status for income taxes or survivor benefits under Social Security.
They are now moving to extend civil rights to same sex couples in the military
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/item/15846-pentagon-prepares-to-extend-benefits-to-military-same-sex-couples
“The Department of Defense welcomes the Supreme Court’s decision today on the Defense of Marriage Act,” a statement from Hagel's office read. “The Department will immediately begin the process of implementing the Supreme Court’s decision in consultation with the Department of Justice and other executive branch agencies. The Department of Defense intends to make the same benefits available to all military spouses — regardless of sexual orientation — as soon as possible. That is now the law, and it is the right thing to do.”
I look forward to the day in the near future when same sex couples like Greenwald will be able get visa benefits for their spouses.
Those that have made the NSA meta data issue the be all and end all of the civil rights issue, as you apparently do, are the real hypocrites on civil rights abuses. This President has done more, much much more, on extending legal protection to millions of people living in the US and those that present any matrix that puts the President at the bottom of civil rights advancement is simply ignoring the millions of people going to bed tonight with a concrete executive order that now gives them more rights than they had in 2008. I know that to be true because my family is one of those families.
In that case let me add that it is a very poorly written OP to the rest of my comments.
Where in your OP do you mention that it is part of larger conversation.
I realize that many are able to spend hours and hours at DU combing through all of the threads but many of us have limited time. Last night I finished work at 11.
As to the substance of your OP I covered most of the points in this reply:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3328894
But I will make the following comments summary points:
Anyone who uses an OP thread title like: "Proud Member Of "The Glenn Greenwald Left" Here." should assume that people are going to imply that you consider GG something of a hero.
I don't consider him either a hero or a villain:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023322707
Now as to the substance of your OP and your reply
1) The problems of the NSA use of mega data is an important issue that deserves serious discussion, and more accountability because while it hasn't led to actual "knocks on the door" it certainly could lead to further erosions of civil rights.
2) Those that construct, as GG and others do, any matrix that significantly critiques this administration's record on extending civil rights is simply ignoring the millions of people who have received additional civil rights protection through the President's executive actions.
Taking your word that you are sincerely interested in civil rights of real persons and the agenda of the left then any discussion of civil rights by this administration must take into account
a) the reversal of the Bush administration's use of ICE to conduct residential sweeps (real knock on the doors) and the mass deportation of law abiding undocumented workers as I documented in my lengthy reply noted above.
b) the use of executive orders (and there are many) that have provided undocumented workers Federal ID cards.
Now in the interests of goodwill I am going to assume that up until this point you were unaware of the fact that millions of undocumented workers have received from President Obama on the basis of an executive order and no Congressional legislation a Federal ID card that allows them to work legally in the US:
Before Obama these people were picked up these people were the subject of sweeps in residential neighborhoods. Now they can work legally and go through Border Patrol check points and not get hassled and not worry about their civil rights.
So it may not be a big deal to you, it certainly isn't to GG and others who elevate the NSA mega data issue above this one, but for millions of families who now live with civil rights that didn't exist under Bush and would be taken away by Romney we have a much different opinion on the question of evaluating this civil rights record of this administration.
It may not be a big deal to you. It is a big deal to my family because one of our members now carries a card just like that.
This is what real civil rights protection is all about.
because only woo-ists love the Bushes.
Oh, wait, Obama praised Bu..
The 'convergence of Bush and Clinton/Obama is not a subject you are supposed to mention. It has never happened, and if you are foolish enough to point it out, you will become part of the 'Alex Jones/Glennwald' 'left'/'right' or whatever.
Left make me all the more committed to continuing to support anyone who comes under attack who is pointing out that our Civil Liberties are seriously in jeopardy.
For some reason Greenwald, who was just a blogger during the Bush years has always come under attack by the Right for his attacks on Bush's anti-Civil Liberties policies.
I believe that everyone who is taking a stand for our rights at this critical time deserves to be supported.
Greenwald is who they have chosen to highlight, but he's not the only one who has been attacked for his long time defense of our Civil Liberties.
I'm merely obliging them since they chose HIM to attack the LEFT with. And I'm nothing if not obliging
and if that's all they have, they ain't got shit.
I have followed your Op's/posts with interest, and may I say that I appreciate your' work. Thanks.
see the latest assault on the Left. I appreciate your comment, thank you.
THIS is what I would expect to see on a website called Democratic Underground. The rest of it is just disruption or severe partisanship that does not care where the party goes as long as they can be a member.....makes you kinda swoony to think you can belong. 
No party here, got tired of the thinking being done and served to me as if I thought of it myself, especially tired of it when I looked at it and thought it looked like RW pablum.
GG I don't particularly care for or not care for, he is a journalist doing his job and I appreciate him. I really do not know where he falls on the scale, never thought to evaluate that. Still, I agree with him far more than I agree with a whole lot of people here trying to discredit what others say rather than seeking to move us with more than calling us Paulites etc. once again
Ever hear the phrase 'you are either with us or against us'?
This OP is merely a response to the latest attack on the Left on DU wherein GG was used as bait. It kind of was asking for a response, so I obliged.
High praise coming from you.
Here you go, looks like you could really use one of these.
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Thanks anyhow, but I like to keep in shape the natural way.
totally ridiculous attack on the Left using Greenwald as part of it. So I decided to respond in kind, although sinking to the level of these attacks is pretty hard to do.
I see no point generally in even going into those OPs which attack the Left right here on this forum. But from now on every time I see one, I will respond as I have here, so that people have a place without kicking those nonsensical threads, to respond themselves.
I agree with you re writers, politicians etc. But the attacks on Greenwald since he dared to criticize this administration's record on Civil Rights issues, has had the effect, not what they wanted, of rallying people to his right to state his views on this most important issue, shared as it happens but all those of us who opposed ALL of Bush's policies.
Thank you for commenting in my thread, I appreciate it. I refuse to allow the Third Way to define the 'Left', they know nothing about the Left.
this statement from your above response blew me away.
That's it in a nutshell right there. Hopefully folks are waking up to this, and learning to identify such efforts on blogs such as this as well as from the media.
Anyway, great post.
blind. Thank you so much for your comment, I appreciate it.
You have effectively deconstructed most of the crap floating around DU in those few short paragraphs.
PLEASE post this as an OP.
Pretty Please?
me at all, that is rare! Lol!
This is exactly what they are missing, or maybe not? Sometimes I wonder, but it is so true:
As the most recent polls show, this IS a serious issue for a majority of the people now. And ignoring it or trying to distract from it will likely do exactly the opposite of whatever it is they are trying to do by slamming people like Greenwald.
I have been told, in this thread, that when it comes to Civil Rights, there are 'grey areas'. I have asked what those 'grey areas' are, but so far no response. And yes, we are getting sick of this crap.
Thank you for an excellent post.
resort to a personal attack, so I will take it as a compliment!
and laughed out loud when I saw the attempt to shame us by bringing Alex Jones into the mix. There is a silver lining to their pathetic antics...it has elicited some excellent responses.
something!
Anyhow, you're right. Some great responses to those flamebait threads. So they do serve some purpose.
Now I guess I know what I have always been while being a moderate Democrat that was not considered very left when I first formed such beliefs.
It is good to find out what I "really am" as explained by the smart new pragmatic conservative Dems.
to decide whether you are being insulted or complimented. I do, always. In this case I felt especially proud, more than complimented.
And to think, I won this prize without ever becoming a bonifide leftist Communist or pure Socialist.
I have always been a mild somewhat Democratic Socialist that has been willing to continue the FDR centrist approach between the Communists and the Fascistic Capitalist. For silly reasons like we prospered from the forties until the late seventies before the God Reagan influenced BOTH parties and taught us that the real center is found between unregulated Capitalism and full on mussolini fascism.
false information, no shame at all to outright lie about someone just because you don't like their political views. Although why any Democrat would not like Greenwald's views on Civil Liberties, on SS, on Gay Rights, on most of the issues Liberals claim to support is beyond me.
I appreciate you correcting the false information, it makes DU look bad when these kinds of flagrant untruths and false statements become the norm here.
