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ProSense

(116,464 posts)
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 12:11 PM Jul 2013

Bolivia forgives European countries for air space incident

Bolivia forgives European countries for air space incident

(Reuters) - Bolivian President Evo Morales on Wednesday forgave France, Spain, Italy and Portugal for denying their air space to his presidential jet early this month, closing an incident that had riled leftist governments around Latin America.

<...>

Morales and other South American leftist leaders Rafael Correa of Ecuador, Cristina Fernandez of Argentina and Nicolas Maduro of Venezuela said pressure from Washington was behind the air space denial. They said the incident had put Morales' life at risk and showed a neo-colonialist attitude on the part of the European countries involved.

The European countries later apologized to Bolivia. Brazil, Venezuela, Argentina and Uruguay, which make up the Mercosur trade bloc, joined Bolivia in recalling their ambassadors from the four countries for consultations over the incident.

"Although we are not fully satisfied, we accept the apologies of the four countries as a first step, because we want to continue relationships of respect among our countries," Morales told reporters in Bolivia's capital, La Paz.

"Accordingly, we have agreed to send our ambassadors back," Morales added.

- more -

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/24/usa-security-snowden-bolivia-idUSL1N0FU0TS20130724


44 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Bolivia forgives European countries for air space incident (Original Post) ProSense Jul 2013 OP
Oh, thank gawd!!! Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #1
Nice. You win the uninformed Ugly American award. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2013 #12
Wow. Maven Jul 2013 #14
Double wow! Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #17
Unbelievable. At least learn to distinguish all those 'Brown people' from one another if you are sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #26
gag mitchtv Jul 2013 #27
In SnowdenWald World, this was supposed to be the End! railsback Jul 2013 #2
Kick! n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #3
K&R. Knew they'd come to their senses. nt AllINeedIsCoffee Jul 2013 #4
I don't think you get it. But that's okay, it's not unusual for Americans to fail to understand sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #28
Ok Emo... nt msanthrope Jul 2013 #5
Great News! Scurrilous Jul 2013 #6
I have just one thing to say Pretzel_Warrior Jul 2013 #7
Did you get the implications of this at all? Appraently not. sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #29
hahahahaha Cali_Democrat Jul 2013 #8
Our long international nightmare is over NoPasaran Jul 2013 #9
I can never keep up with you ProSense Savannahmann Jul 2013 #10
I believe ProSense Jul 2013 #11
Really? Savannahmann Jul 2013 #15
What the hell ProSense Jul 2013 #16
Hoisted on your own blue link. LOL Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #18
I may not always agree with ProSense, but I believe she acted in good faith. nt William769 Jul 2013 #19
"I may not always agree with" you, but thanks. ProSense Jul 2013 #21
Fascinating ProSense Jul 2013 #20
You can dish it but.... nt Mojorabbit Jul 2013 #22
Your point is still nonsense. n/t ProSense Jul 2013 #23
And if you read your own link, you will see that Morales and the rest of the Latin American sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #30
Gee, ProSense Jul 2013 #32
Jury Results aikoaiko Jul 2013 #24
All the boneheads on this thread notwithstanding, I think Bolivia made its point. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2013 #13
Yes, it did. Igel Jul 2013 #33
Why are those countries apologizing when this was all due to LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #25
Reality versus perception. n/t Igel Jul 2013 #34
you mean it happened? mitchtv Jul 2013 #31
To review the distortions posted here would take a book but in brief flamingdem Jul 2013 #35
HO.LI.FUK LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #36
I would have looked to the facts and not get into conspiracy flamingdem Jul 2013 #37
That's what I'm asking you to do LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #38
I was mostly surprised to see the left side being dishonest and opportunistic flamingdem Jul 2013 #39
I'm not sure that answered my question LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #40
I'm not interested in thinking about that question flamingdem Jul 2013 #41
To me it goes to the heart of the matter LondonReign2 Jul 2013 #42
As you can see I'm more interested in flamingdem Jul 2013 #43
Wasn't that before someone claimed that President Obama had shot down Morales' plane?? Major Hogwash Jul 2013 #44
 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
12. Nice. You win the uninformed Ugly American award.
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 01:18 PM
Jul 2013

Guacamole is from Mexico. But I know, it's hard to tell all those brown people apart.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
26. Unbelievable. At least learn to distinguish all those 'Brown people' from one another if you are
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 02:14 PM
Jul 2013

going to attempt to hurl insults in their direction.

 

railsback

(1,881 posts)
2. In SnowdenWald World, this was supposed to be the End!
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 12:30 PM
Jul 2013

Latin American countries lashing out, thumping their chests, the United States was burning bridges fast, with no light at the end of the tunnel.

Take it easy, I says. This is just machismo. Watch.

Sorry, Ed.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
28. I don't think you get it. But that's okay, it's not unusual for Americans to fail to understand
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 02:15 PM
Jul 2013

what is going on outside their own framework. This, eg, is very bad for the US.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
29. Did you get the implications of this at all? Appraently not.
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 02:17 PM
Jul 2013

Those Brown people are way smarter than your obvious opinion of them. Which they are aware of. It's fun watching this thread though.

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
10. I can never keep up with you ProSense
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 01:14 PM
Jul 2013

Are you now saying that the incident happened? When for days you told us that it was all hype designed to make President Obama look bad? You see my problem here.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
11. I believe
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 01:17 PM
Jul 2013

"I can never keep up with you ProSense

Are you now saying that the incident happened? When for days you told us that it was all hype designed to make President Obama look bad? You see my problem here. "

...your mission is hard because of your creative imagination.

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
15. Really?
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 01:31 PM
Jul 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3172624

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023177352#post3

I could continue. At first, your argument was that the airspace issue was due to a rumor started by whom. Not the violations of the Vienna Conventions, or the violations of the ICAO agreements. Then when that fell by the wayside, then you went off on rants about how those nations were all guilty of hyperbole.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023163029

Shall I continue more? Now, all is well because Bolivia accepted an apology for an incident you said didn't happen, was perfectly legal, was absolutely justified, and now all is forgiven.

I can't keep up with you ProSense. You change directions faster than a hummingbird.

ON EDIT: If you want to post that PM I sent you before now would be a great time.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
16. What the hell
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 01:35 PM
Jul 2013

does any of that have to do with this BS claim:

"When for days you told us that it was all hype designed to make President Obama look bad?"

Again, your creative imagination is getting the best of you. Hyperbole and questions about the source of the rumor have nothing to do with your nonsensical claim.

Mojorabbit

(16,020 posts)
18. Hoisted on your own blue link. LOL
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 01:48 PM
Jul 2013

"Was the rumor an intentional act by the U.S. government?

Was it the U.S. government acting on bad information?

Was it another party trying to embarrass the U.S. government? "

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
20. Fascinating
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 01:53 PM
Jul 2013
Hoisted on your own blue link. LOL

"Was the rumor an intentional act by the U.S. government?

Was it the U.S. government acting on bad information?

Was it another party trying to embarrass the U.S. government? "

...you think a series of questions about a rumor that was clearly a rumor and wanting to know the source is the same as:

"When for days you told us that it was all hype designed to make President Obama look bad? You see my problem here."

It was a rumor. The U.S. could have been the source. Fact: It was still a rumor.

I suspect that this is going to turn into another attempted deflection because some don't like the information in the OP.

Carry on.









sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
30. And if you read your own link, you will see that Morales and the rest of the Latin American
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 02:20 PM
Jul 2013

countries have forgiven EUROPEAN puppets. That is all, and in doing so have made the very clear point that they believe they merely dangling on the strings of the US. So what do you see here that is in any way beneficial to the US? I am failing to see the cause of the prejudicial remarks and the dozens of little laughing roly poly guys.

This is what is called 'playing chess' and we are losing. Do you not see that,, really?

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
32. Gee,
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 02:26 PM
Jul 2013

"And if you read your own link, you will see that Morales and the rest of the Latin American countries have forgiven EUROPEAN puppets. That is all, and in doing so have made the very clear point that they believe they merely dangling on the strings of the US. So what do you see here that is in any way beneficial to the US? I am failing to see the cause of the prejudicial remarks and the dozens of little laughing roly poly guys."

...maybe you could stop pretending I didn't "read" the OP, stop responding to straw men (I said nothing about anything being " beneficial to the US&quot , and then take up your issues with "prejudicial remarks" with those who made them.

"This is what is called 'playing chess' and we are losing. Do you not see that,, really?"

OK.

aikoaiko

(34,183 posts)
24. Jury Results
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 02:10 PM
Jul 2013

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
At Wed Jul 24, 2013, 12:56 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I can never keep up with you ProSense
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3330171

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

He's making up shit, baiting Prosense.
She never said it didn't happen --- that was someone else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Jul 24, 2013, 01:02 PM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: If its true that Prosense never said what Savannahmann claims, then the alerter, Prosense, or any fan boi can explain that in the thread. This post is not hide worthy.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

Igel

(35,350 posts)
33. Yes, it did.
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 02:49 PM
Jul 2013

Now, was the point that was made the point Bolivia intended to be made?

Can't answer it.

When a kid makes a valid claim in defending his rights he feels vindicated when he gets the response he wants and often earns a degree of respect. When a toddler throws a tantrum and the parents' friends give him the response he wants, he, too, feels vindicated but it doesn't mean he's garnered any respect.

What's the attitude behind the Europeans' diplomatese? Dunno.

Which is the "true point" that was made? The question is pointless.

flamingdem

(39,319 posts)
35. To review the distortions posted here would take a book but in brief
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 03:03 PM
Jul 2013

The countries didn't agree with Pres. Morales about what happened. Morales had it as a conspiracy but it was mostly incompetence. Italy and Portugal sent explanatory notes, not apologies.

What's important to see here is that the left press and the sloppy press altered this to say that Italy and Portugal apologized. They did not and it's on record as a part of the OAS meeting. The left/questionable press also altered the story to have the US forcing Morales to land in Austria. That was never proven.

There was such a rush to make this a conspiracy but no one had solid sources. That's still the case.

This was a game and it produced a result, Morales is more popular at home and Latin America feels more united against the great Imperio en El Norte. Fine, but now I'll know to disbelieve them on other issues.

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
36. HO.LI.FUK
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 03:32 PM
Jul 2013

Ask yourself: if this exact same sequence of events had happened while Shrub was president, what would your reaction have been?

flamingdem

(39,319 posts)
37. I would have looked to the facts and not get into conspiracy
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 03:41 PM
Jul 2013

because it's unsettling to have lies passing for news.

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
38. That's what I'm asking you to do
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 03:44 PM
Jul 2013

If this exact same set of facts has presented themselves while Bush was President, you would have had the same reaction? you would have believed the same things? You would have made hundreds of posts on the topic saying it was overblown, the Bush Administration wasn't proved to be involved, Bolivia was just trying to embarrass Bush, etc. etc.?

flamingdem

(39,319 posts)
39. I was mostly surprised to see the left side being dishonest and opportunistic
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 03:49 PM
Jul 2013

I am fluent in Spanish so I followed many sources and saw the distortion.

It really zapped any support I felt for the left in Latin America. They really acted like ninnies but granted they were getting a lot of confusing information. However, when the facts came in they needed to back off. This is basically what we see here with this "forgiveness".

By the way the culprit was never found and the USA rejected the OAS vote. That's because they didn't orchestrate and Maduro and Morales either got it wrong or lied about this supposed CIA agent. If this person who it was said was even calling control towers ever existed, someone would have outed him.

And so you know I have years of being a Latin Americanist and supporting left governments there.

I was for instance very happy that Cuba didn't jump on this bullshit except as to be polite. Others bought it hook, line and sinker and did the rah rah.

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
40. I'm not sure that answered my question
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 03:55 PM
Jul 2013

OK, I can understand that you didn't like process and didn't like how some people characterized the event. But if these facts had occurred when Bush was president you would have the same view of the incident as you do now?

And if you don't think the US orchestrated it, who do you think did? Who had the pull to get France, Italy, Spain, and Portugal to do what they did?

flamingdem

(39,319 posts)
41. I'm not interested in thinking about that question
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 04:05 PM
Jul 2013

I don't think it was orchestrated because Italy and Portugal didn't close their airspace, this is what they always maintained. Portugal let them land but didn't agree to refuel due to strikes.

THUS those two countries didn't apologize no matter what you read.

Spain had some wacko right wing guy show up, but didn't ever say they blocked airspace. Their apology was over him.

France had some confusion about two planes, incompetence there and who knows.

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
42. To me it goes to the heart of the matter
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 04:14 PM
Jul 2013

For me, given one set of facts, I can't believe one thing when the R's in charge and believe the complete opposite when our guys are in charge.

YMMV

flamingdem

(39,319 posts)
43. As you can see I'm more interested in
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 04:15 PM
Jul 2013

the behavior of the Latin Americans and the media.

So it wouldn't be the question for me.

It's not "one set of facts" -- there are not enough facts in this case.

In any other case I think we'd have more to go on.

I can't immediately think of an example where things were so confused.

Major Hogwash

(17,656 posts)
44. Wasn't that before someone claimed that President Obama had shot down Morales' plane??
Wed Jul 24, 2013, 05:03 PM
Jul 2013

I can't remember the specifics of what exactly was said, but they claimed that President Obama actually shot down Morales' plane.
I'm not sure where they claimed that it happened, over France or over Spain, but the plane had to land in Austria.
I know the plane landed in Austria, but then again, I didn't see any pictures of the plane actually landing there, so who knows if it actually did or not.

But, all's well that ends well.
Morales apologized and the European countries, the gracious people that they are known to be, forgave him.

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