Some of us are getting to be like the Birthers with this Zimmerman crash.

[nytemare]

Last edited Thu Jul 25, 2013, 08:19 PM - Edit history (1)

I have posted here before about Zimmerman, and I am not a fan of the man. I think he was a wanna-be cop who essentially tried to make an arrest on a young man when he didn't have the authority to do so, then, when he couldn't follow through with what he started, and was getting his ass beat, he shot the kid. I think if anyone had a right to stand their ground, it was Martin, who had this guy following him. A guy who had a history of being over zealous with his self-appointed Neighborhood Watch captaindom. I also think if Zimmerman wasn't carrying a gun, he would have stayed his butt in the car like he should have, and let the police decide if something was amiss. He wouldn't have had the bravado to get out of the vehicle, thinking "oh if anything goes bad, I'll just stand my ground". I am truly disappointed with the verdict in this case, and hope that the Martin family will at least get some justice in Civil Court. I have read many poignant posts here on DU, the ones I recall the most are from Mr. Scorpio, who shared well-reasoned and incisive posts regarding the Martin case.

That being said, some of the posts on here regarding the recent crash in Sanford are truly straining credulity. I see posts on here insulting the family in the accident, people saying the whole thing was a set up by the Seminole County Sheriff's Office. Saying this was all a PR stunt from Zimmerman. Some have posted that they don't believe the crash even happened. It happened.

There are multiple 911 callers, some who witnessed the actual crash. There is a vehicle crash report from Florida Highway Patrol. There was another person who also aided in pulling the family out. If I could find a link to the traffic report that day, I would post that too.

Here is the 911 call audio:

Here is the crash report:
http://www.mytvjax.com/media/lib/1/3/c/7/3c73213c-4cac-446d-bea8-810f0a79f7aa/I4_SR46VehicleCrash.pdf

The weather for 7/17/13 in Sanford between 5-6 pm - Rain / Light rain
http://users.tpg.com.au/users/tps-seti/baloney.html


Please use some critical thinking, and play through in your minds what would have to happen for all this to be true. First of all, a father would have had to put his family's lives in possible danger by overturning his SUV on a BUSY road in rush hour traffic. Secondly, in order to fall into the mass conspiracy alleged by some, ALL the callers (conspirators) who called 911 would have just had to happen to be in that exact place at that time. Whatever deputy who was part of the conspiracy would have had to be clear of all other calls for service to happen to be dispatched to that location right at that time.

Very much like, if Obama was born in Kenya, some family member would have had to contact the local paper to enter a birth announcement, just happen to know the name of the hospital Obama was born at, and, Obama retroactively would have had to have the Hawaii Vital Statistics office fake a birth certificate.

Occam's Razor states that all things taken into account, usually the simplest explanation is the correct one. The simplest explanation is, that on July 17th, between 5 and 5:30 pm, a man driving an SUV onto Interstate 4 in Sanford lost control of his SUV, and it overturned. Two men, one of them being the asshole George Zimmerman, helped the family out of the vehicle. Several passersby called 911. Seminole County Deputies dispatched to the location, along with Fire-Rescue. A report was taken. In order to believe that the accident didn't happen, or it was a conspiracy, each of these things could not have happened the way they did.

But they did. Obama was born in Hawaii, as his birth certificate and the newspaper announcement said. And George Zimmerman, the schmuck bucket wannabe cop, helped pull the family out of that car.

The Democratic party is the party of science, and as such, is the party of reality. Wanting something to be true does not make it so. I do not want to believe that Zimmerman would help pull a family out of an overturned vehicle, but all the evidence points to that being the case, and no allegorical claims of it being a PR stunt, or him having friends with Seminole County Sheriff's Office, or whatever else theory has been cooked up on here changes the facts.

For some good guidelines on critical thinking, Carl Sagan gave a nice, simple explanation in his "Baloney Detection Kit". http://users.tpg.com.au/users/tps-seti/baloney.html

[Lurks Often]

1. .......

[nytemare]

4. LOL. Yeah, get your popcorn ready.

I was just thinking about that.

[CatWoman]

2. are you?

[heaven05]

44. did

you hear about the juror who thinks zimPIG got away with murder, can't sleep, can't eat, but under florida law they DID NOT have the proof to convict? She feels she owes the Martin family an apology.

[former9thward]

3. Everybody loves a good conspiracy theory.

The bigger the better.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

5. I read on the internets they were spotted leaving the Twin Towers on 9/10

They left the country using Kenyan passports. It was all explained in Vince Foster's suicide note just after he shot the Kennedys.

[nytemare]

10. Exactly!

Zimmerman was in Building 7, and was the 3rd Boston Bomber. And Obama napalmed Cambodia as a Kenyan pilot!

[GiaGiovanni]

78. :D

Funny.

[LanternWaste]

6. It's almost as absurd as thinking he attempted to commit money-laundering...

It's almost as absurd as thinking he attempted to commit money-laundering via the mechanism of a grade-school code from his jail cell.

Almost as absurd, but not quite...

[bigwillq]

7. those damn Crashers

[nytemare]

24. ...

[CakeGrrl]

8. I don't place much significance in speculation about the accident 'rescue'

Except that the timing smacks of opportunism.

Whether Zimmerman was monitoring a police band or was tipped off by the local police, the timing smacked of a hamfisted attempt at image rehabilitation.

The attempted press conference seals it. I'm glad it was called off.

[nytemare]

11. They did try to get PR out of it, for sure.

Last edited Thu Jul 25, 2013, 07:56 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't think the incident was created for PR, but Zimmerman's attorney and the family has jumped all over the incident.

It is possible that he was listening to a scanner, or was tipped, but that may be a little incredible. He would have had to have gotten to the ramp pretty quickly to be one of the first to respond.

[GiaGiovanni]

14. I'd call off the press conference too

Who wants the freaking media on your back 24/7?

[Bjorn Against]

9. There is really no credible evidence to back the Sanford Police story up

The only evidence we have of this "rescue" comes from the Sanford Police Department which cemented itself as the least credible law enforcement agency in America because of their favored treatment of George Zimmerman, the same damn person they are propping up in this story. We have not seen any photos of Zimmerman at the scene of the crash, it happened on a busy highway yet not a single gawker even noticed that a person who has been dominating news coverage was on the side of the road so we did not even hear about this until four days later.

They don't need to stage an accident, they only had to lie about what happened at the scene of the accident. The story they gave seems way too far fetched to be believed and no one has shown me a single shred of evidence to back up this rescue story aside from the words of a corrupt police department. Show me physical evidence to prove Zimmerman was even at the scene and I will consider it, but until you can provide me with evidence don't compare me to a birther.

[nytemare]

22. There is no Sanford Police story on this crash. It was Seminole County who responded.

http://www.mytvjax.com/media/lib/1/3/c/7/3c73213c-4cac-446d-bea8-810f0a79f7aa/I4_SR46VehicleCrash.pdf

[Bjorn Against]

25. And it was the Sanford Police Department that reported the story to the media

Here is the very first media report on this supposed "rescue"...

George Zimmerman Emerged From Hiding for Truck Crash Rescue

Source: ABC News

George Zimmerman, who has been in hiding since he was acquitted of murder in the death of Trayvon Martin, emerged to help rescue someone who was trapped in an overturned truck, police said today.

Sanford Police Department Capt. Jim McAuliffe told ABC News that Zimmerman "pulled an individual from a truck that had rolled over" at the intersection of a Florida highway last week.


Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-emerged-hiding-truck-crash-rescue/story?id=19735432

So yes, this is a Sanford Police Department story, not that the Seminole County Sherriff is much better. The Patrick Rehder who was the responding officer at the scene named in the very report you linked to has been a vocal Zimmerman supporter for a long time and whose own Facebook Wall was made up mostly of posts about Zimmerman.

Can you name one single witness who is talking and can not be shown to have a clear interest in the Zimmerman case? Can you show me one piece of physical evidence that puts George Zimmerman at the scene of the accident? If you can't provide any evidence beyond the words of cops who I have zero trust in then don't try to compare me to a birther.

[Rex]

40. This is just another variation of the Zimmerman trolling

going on the past few weeks since he won in court. Nobody really believes that Zimmerman set this up to happen, but some here LOVE to pretend we do!

Pathetic and when you give them a few FACTS...notice how they don't reply back? Those pesky FACTS.

[Th1onein]

76. What's so difficult to believe? Lying liars LIE.

Zimmerman is a liar. He lied. He wasn't there because he just came across the accident. I don't believe that, or anything else he says. Not in a million years. What's so hard to believe about him having a police scanner and getting there first? He's a cop wannabe. Of COURSE he'd have a police scanner.

This isn't even close to the birther's crap. Not a mile wide whisker close.

[nytemare]

49. Can YOU present any evidence that he WASN'T there?

YOU are the one making an extraordinary claim, YOU have to present the extraordinary evidence. You don't present any evidence at all.


YOU are saying that the family members in the wreck, the fire department, EMT, and whoever else pulled over to aid or call 911 are lying. It was not simply a small accident where Barney Fife responded and put a band-aid on someone. It is not SIMPLY the words of cops. Have any of those there come forward to say that Zimmerman WASN'T there? None of the blogspam actually posts any EVIDENCE that he wasn't there. The fact that Seminole County responded to the accident doesn't mean that Zimmerman wasn't there. The fact that Patrick Rehder was the Deputy who responded is not evidence that Zimmerman wasn't there. The fact that there are no photographs from passersby does not mean that Zimmerman wasn't there.

And, by the way, how many photographs have you taken of accidents you passed in rush hour in the rain through police cars and firetrucks and citizen's vehicles while yielding a lane over for emergency vehicles? How many pictures of accidents have you taken at all? When you pass by an accident, are you looking at the car, injured people, or for the people talking to the police? And, if you take a picture, is it going to be of the vehicle, or the dude talking to the EMT's? For more on that: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023333749#post42 .

Because there are no photographs on the internet does not mean that Zimmerman was not there.

So, this accident just happened, and someone said, "OH, guess what, I bet if we say Zimmerman pulled this family out of the car, that would make him squeaky clean in the public's eye. Ok, now Deputy, Firefighter, EMT, other witness, family who got in the wreck, you have to all agree to say Zimmerman was here, or at least when we say it, you have to keep your mouth shut and agree." This is completely and utterly ridiculous, and would require an amount of orchestration far beyond the competency of any of the people involved.

This was a Seminole County accident. They did the report. They were at the scene of the accident, along with fire, rescue and EMT. Seminole County did the press release. The Captain you mentioned from Sanford is the Public Information Officer. He was most likely contacted by the press who knew him and dealt with him on numerous occasions over the last year plus. It was not a Sanford case. But, again, the fact that the Sanford PIO spoke with the media does not mean Zimmerman was not there.

Honestly, my opinion of Zimmerman is not changed anyway over this incident. I still think he got away with at least Manslaughter.

Birther's have zero trust in Obama, so no matter what he does, no matter how much evidence he presented to being born in Hawaii, they do not believe him.

In this case, despite the word of the Sheriff's Office, EMT's, Fire Fighters, and other responders, or their silence, which is understood agreement with the story as presented, you do not believe them. You have not presented any actual evidence to the contrary.

[Bjorn Against]

53. If you were a critical thinker as you claim to be you would know you can't prove a negative

I can't prove that George Zimmerman was not on the scene, but I can't prove that you are not posting on DU from a secret lab at the bottom of the ocean either, it is impossible to prove a negative that is logic 101.

I am not making any extraordinary claim, I am asking for evidence that the extraordinary claim made by the Sanford Police is accurate.

If I saw George Zimmerman pulling people out of an overturned vehicle, then yes I would absolutely take a picture of it because that is something that would have to be seen to be believed. I think damn near everyone who witnessed such a coincedental and ironic moment would take a picture of it.

I did not make the claim that George Zimmerman was involved in a rescue the Sanford Police Department did, it is their job to prove it, it is not my job to disprove it

[nytemare]

66. To claim that Zimmerman wasn't there is an extraordinary claim.

You are making that claim, in contrary to the emergency responders, including firefighters, EMT's, and whoever else was there. Nobody who was there has come forward and said that the news story was false. It is an extraordinary claim to say that all these people are lying.

Would you be driving by a traffic accident looking for George Zimmerman????? The accident was in a grassy area between the merge lane and the traffic lanes, there were probably Sheriff's Office vehicles, fire trucks, other vehicles pulled off. Lanes may have been closed. So, you're telling me, that on an OVERCAST RAINY day, through all these vehicles, and traffic, rather than look at the vehicle that was overturned, you would be paying attention to some schmuck talking to the police? Or that you would have been able to determine that the dude pulling people out of the vehicle was George Zimmerman? And, you would have presumably stopped your vehicle, in traffic, right at the point where any bottle neck created starts to smooth out, to take a picture of this guy? Do you presume to be able to tell who anybody is in the rain when they are off the side of the road in the median probably blocked by a vehicle? Have you ever taken a picture of an accident you passed?

Honestly, why didn't someone take a video of the whole shooting incident? There were several calls to 911. People saw it. Why didn't they take a picture of that? White guy shoots a black kid. Pretty extraordinary event. Nowadays, you'd think there'd be all kinds of pictures. It was only 7 pm. Do you believe that Zimmerman was there, because, according to police accounts, and his own, he was. But, there were no pictures! Therefore, he must not have been there??

[Bjorn Against]

67. I did not claim he was not there, I said there was no credible evidence he was there

If you can show me credible evidence he was there I will change my position, but so far I have yet to see credible evidence that he was. I am not saying definitively that he was not there, I am saying I don't believe that he was there. Show me evidence to prove he was there and I will listen, but so far you have been unable to provide any physical evidence or the name of a single witness that does not have a clear interest in the Zimmerman case.

[heaven05]

45. yep

zimPIG is a hero. Should make all his supporters ON THIS SITE start celebrating anew.

[nytemare]

48. You apparantly didn't read my thoughts on Zimmerman in my original post.

Not surprising, though.

[GiaGiovanni]

12. Well, if Trayvon Martin were shown to have helped old ladies across the street, conservatives would

be claiming that he was trying to kill them.

People are a mixed bag. They have both good and bad in them. It is possible to believe that Zimmerman pulled people out of a car after an accident without deciding he must be innocent of profiling Trayvon.

[Pelican]

30. People would probably claim that the zombies were on their way...

[reformist2]

13. Call me a crasher... I think the story is extremely fishy.

[spin]

15. Helping a person or persons get out of an overturned vehicle does not make you a hero. ...

I've done this in the past and I'm sure that any responsible citizen who came on a crash scene would also try to help.

I chose to believe that the accident happened and was not a publicity stunt. I also believe that Zimmerman did a very foolish thing by not following the instructions of a police dispatcher and consequently a teen aged kid died. "Rescuing" the passengers in the vehicle does not make up for the tragedy that happened over a year ago on a rainy night in Sanford Florida.

[nytemare]

17. Exactly!

Nothing he does will bring back Martin.

Zimmerman was one of the two people who removed the family from the vehicle.

I would hope that most would try to assist a family in need, if they were in the same situation. I do think most responsible citizens would.

[spin]

19. One of the initial reports stated that the other individual was Zimmerman's bodyguard. ...

This may or may not be true.

[GiaGiovanni]

16. I wasn't going to rec this one, but after reading the drivel on

HipChick's thread, I think the OP may be on to something.

For the record: I thought Zimmerman would be found guilty of manslaughter and find it hard to believe that he got to walk free. I credit that to Stand Your Ground and believe that law must be fought. I live in California where we have gun control that works very well, and can't understand why anyone would want a society where everyone is packing heat.

[Egnever]

18. You have gun control that works really well?

Oakland is one of the deadliest cities in the US. Theres lots of work to be done still on gun control even in California.

[GiaGiovanni]

31. Our gun control laws can't control criminality

but they do prevent many children from fatal gun accidents. We do pretty well here as US states go.

[Hoyt]

62. Good point. Even if tougher laws don't impact crime immediately, it does make

the rest of us live together with civility.

Long term laws will make a difference. The gun guys will have us put saner laws off a decade. Then, we will have another 100 million more of the dang things to deal with.

[nytemare]

20. I agree.

I thought that the way the evidence was presented, I wasn't sure if they would get 2nd Deg Murder, but that surely they would see Manslaughter as fitting.

Even though Zimmerman didn't have a "Stand Your Ground" hearing, that law played a huge part in why Martin was killed that night, and it was used in the jury instruction, to my dismay. I think that without that law, Martin would still be alive, even if Zimmerman were still carrying a gun that night. He felt emboldened by the law, and the gun. Without both being there, I doubt you would have the same results. Of course, it's speculation on my part.

[GiaGiovanni]

57. Well, since most of what we've done on this case is speculation,

your speculation is as good as anyone else's. And from the fact that you can put facts together logically, it's probably better than most.

[spin]

21. You might find this article interesting. California does have a form of "Stand Your Ground" law. ..

5 Things To Know About 'Stand Your Ground' In California
July 22, 2013, 1:44 pm • Posted by Joshua Johnson

Think the George Zimmerman verdict couldn't have happened under California law? Not necessarily. Florida may have a so-called "stand-your-ground" policy written into its laws, but it is possible that a California jury under very similar circumstances could have also handed down an acquittal.

KQED's Joshua Johnson discussed California's stand-your-ground defense with Professor Rory Little of the UC Hastings College of the Law. From that conversation, here are five things to know about how California handles stand-your-ground defenses:

***snip***

2) Even though it's not in the law, the California Criminal Jury Instructions (CALCRIM) do allow a jury to acquit someone based on a stand-your-ground defense. The instruction appears in CALCRIM #505 and #506, both of which deal with justifiable homicide:

"A defendant is not required to retreat. He or she is entitled to stand his or her ground and defend himself or herself and, if reasonably necessary, to pursue an assailant until the danger of (death/great bodily injury/<insert forcible and atrocious crime>] has passed. This is so even if safety could have been achieved by retreating."...emphasis added

So in California, not only could you stay and fight, you can even chase your attacker if it will neutralize the threat to your life.

***snip***

5) To those assessing stand-your-ground laws based on the Zimmerman trial, some have complained that Zimmerman never actually invoked the law, even though it seems to have helped his acquittal. In California, as in Florida, a defense team does not have to actually invoke it: the judge is responsible for giving the jury this instruction on his or her own if the facts of the case warrant it.
http://blogs.kqed.org/newsfix/2013/07/22/5-things-to-know-about-stand-your-ground-in-california/

[X_Digger]

29. Oh noes, will Stevie Wonder boycott California now?!?

[heaven05]

46. people

who have supported zimPIG on this site think this whole situation is some kind of joke. Well the joke is on you showing your ignorance and high stupidity.

[X_Digger]

54. people

who don't even know what their own state's laws are when criticizing others' should be laughed at.

[GiaGiovanni]

32. This is total news to me

I can't remember ever hearing about that defense being used. We don't have an official SYG law.

[spin]

38. It's not common knowledge but it's true. ...

Many states have some form of stand-your-ground law. Alabama,[13] Alaska,[14] Arizona,[15] California,[16][17][18] Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa,[19] Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana,[15] Maine, Massachusetts (though the term is used very loosely there),[20] Michigan,[15] Mississippi, Missouri, Montana,[15] New Hampshire,[15] North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma,[15] Pennsylvania,[21] Rhode Island,[22] South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee,[15] Texas,[23] Utah,[24] West Virginia,[15] Wisconsin[25] and Wyoming have adopted Castle Doctrine statutes, and other states (Iowa,[26] Virginia,[27] and Washington) have considered stand-your-ground laws of their own.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

Stand-Your-Ground Laws

California

While there is no statutory “stand-your-ground” law in California, California Criminal Jury Instruction 3470 takes a very clear and common-sense approach to the problem:

A defendant is not required to retreat. He or she is entitled to stand his or her ground and defend himself or herself and, if reasonably necessary, to pursue an assailant until the danger of [death or bodily injury] has passed. This is so even if safety could have been achieved by retreating.

This jury instruction has been cited in a California reported case as recently as October 5, 2011 in People v. S.G. (Cal. App., 2011).

- See more at: http://www.mcbride-law.com/armed-citizens/stand-your-ground/#sthash.dHhrR3n5.dpuf
http://www.mcbride-law.com/armed-citizens/stand-your-ground/

Stand-your-ground the rule in state, courts affirm
Bob Egelko
Published 4:00 am, Sunday, April 15, 2012

The stand-your-ground doctrine, which has vaulted into national prominence with the killing of Florida teenager Trayvon Martin, isn't limited to the two dozen states that have passed laws since 2005 expanding the right to use deadly force in confrontations.

It's also the rule in California, by court decree. For more than a century, the state's judges have declared that a person who reasonably believes he or she faces serious injury or death from an assailant does not have to back off - inside or outside the home - and instead can use whatever force is needed to eliminate the danger.

The California Legislature has never enacted one of the National Rifle Association-sponsored laws, pioneered by Florida in 2005, that spell out the rights of a defendant in such confrontations and the procedures for applying them in court. But in California, the judicial rulings had much the same effect. The rulings are binding on state courts and are reflected in judges' instructions to juries in cases involving claims of self-defense.

The instructions say a person under attack is even entitled, "if reasonably necessary, to pursue an assailant until the danger of death or great bodily injury has passed. This is so even if safety could have been achieved by retreating."
http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Stand-your-ground-the-rule-in-state-courts-affirm-3482665.php

California Self Defense and Knife Law

www.leginfo.ca.gov
Official California Legislative Information.

SELF DEFENSE

***snip***

IF YOU ARE ATTACKED OR THREATENED WITH ATTACK AND YOU HAVE A CHOICE OF FIGHTING OR RUNNING AWAY, DO YOU HAVE TO FIRST TRY TO RUN AND AVOID THE FIGHT?

NO. If you are attacked, or threatened with an imminent attack, and you have a choice to either retreat or fight, you don’t have to retreat. Under the law, you have a right to “stand your ground” and defend yourself, even if you could have avoided the situation by retreating. In fact, you may even pursue your assailant until you “secure yourself from the danger.” CALJIC 5.50
http://www.knifedealsplus.com/California-Law.html

I'm not sure how I feel about the fact that if you live in California, you can stand your ground and "pursue your assailant"when he tries to run. In Florida we can't do that. I haven't spent a lot of time considering this issue, but initially I favor Florida law. If the attacker stops his efforts to put me in the hospital or the grave and runs, I can't see why I should be allowed to chase him and continue the fight and possibly kill him. Once he runs, the treat to me has ended.

[GiaGiovanni]

55. Thank you. This is great info.

Much appreciated.

[spin]

58. It came as a surprise to me when I found this out while doing some research for a post. ...

It seems that "stand your ground" has been part of California law for a LONG time while Florida had to change state law to incorporate it.

[GiaGiovanni]

60. It still boggles the mind

How far is it from Stand Your Ground to Mad Max, I wonder.

[spin]

64. The Tampa Times has been gathering a data base of all the "stand your ground" cases ...

in Florida. So far they have come up with 200 since the law passed 8 years ago in 2005 and that includes both cases where someone ended up dead and nonfatal cases. The article is interactive and you can search the data base. I would recommend it to anyone interested in the results of "stand your ground" laws. You can view the report at: http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/fatal-cases

Almost 1,000,000 resident Floridians have licenses to carry and it would be logical to assume that far more than 250 cases would occur over an eight year time span. Still it may be time to have a good debate on the effect of the law. While I see some advantages to the law, I feel the way it was worded has caused some instances in which justice was not achieved. In my opinion the law needs a rewrite to eliminate some ambiguities and confusion that have resulted.

I think Florida is a long way from resembling the movie world Mad Max lived in. In fact our gun violence is at an all time low.

Florida firearm violence hits record low; concealed gun permits up
Debate continues over relationship between guns and crime

By JACOB CARPENTER
Posted January 6, 2013 at 5:15 a.m.

In the so-called Gunshine State, home to the most gun permits in the country, firearm violence has fallen to the lowest point on record.

As state and national legislators consider gun control laws in the wake of last month's Connecticut school shooting, Florida finds itself in a gun violence depression. The Firearm-involved violent crime rate has dropped 33 percent between 2007 and 2011, while the number of issued concealed weapons permits rose nearly 90 percent during that time, state records show.
http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2013/jan/06/fla-firearm-violence-hits-record-low/

In passing I don't attribute this to the fact that more people can legally carry concealed weapons. While this might be one of the reasons to the decrease in violence, I tend to believe that more proactive policing and more surveillance cameras and cell phone cameras have made it difficult to escape prosecution.

It is a shame that there were no surveillance cameras rolling to record the Zimmerman/Martin incident from beginning to end.

[GiaGiovanni]

69. Surveillance may stop crime, but it curbs legal rights too (1st amendment)

Not a big fan of surveillance unless you're in a high crime area. However, I get your point.

[spin]

71. I'm not as concerned about security cameras as I am the government ...

gathering massive amounts of data on every citizen.

I can see how it might be beneficial to have all this data available to trace who a terrorist or criminal contacted and possibly what they said. However I fear there's a higher chance that the data could be misused than the chance that it will stop a terrorist attack.

There should be a way to collect all this data and limit all access to it without extremely good reason. I'm not sure how this could be done.

[GiaGiovanni]

79. The purpose is to keep track of every second of our lives

or so it seems.

[spin]

80. NSA has the potential to become much more invasive than Big Brother in the novel "1984" ...

The NSA’s Best Tool for Snooping: You Carry It in Your Pocket Every Day
By Adam Sneed | Posted Friday, June 7, 2013, at 6:17 PM

The idea that the National Security Agency is tracking Americans’ telephone and Internet activity has been around for years and was illustrated in a Wired cover story last year. But what many of us have suspected or joked about is now a reality, with revelations this week that our data and communications are almost certainly being tracked, with at least some participation by private corporations such as Verizon.

We carry the world’s best surveillance device with us every day. Our cellphones have almost unlimited access to our daily lives—not just because we use them to talk, text, and search the Web, but because it’s really easy to turn on the GPS, microphone, or camera secretly from another location. If you’ve ever lost an iPhone, you may have used Apple’s “Find My iPhone” feature to remotely activate your phone’s GPS signal. Or, like this “very nosy mom” in the Wall Street Journal, it’s possible you’ve used the feature to find out what your kids were up to. If Apple really is working with the NSA as part of PRISM, the technical requirements to locate a person through their phone would be no more difficult than that.

For spy agencies, it’s no more difficult to activate your phone’s microphone the same way, letting them listen in on your conversations even when you aren’t making a phone call. In 2006 it was revealed that the FBI used this technique, called a “roving bug,” to listen into the lives of two alleged mobsters in New York. According to CNet, a federal judge deemed that technique legal under federal wiretapping law, even though a phone call wasn’t taking place. And while this kind of spying probably wouldn’t be useful en masse, if the data we now know is on file suggests something suspicious, that could be the justification to listen into your life.

There’s no evidence that PRISM is involved in this kind of spying, but there are other known cases where law enforcement has taken advantage of cellphone technology to track people. Something like this happened in the pursuit of the alleged Boston Marathon bombers, when authorities tracked the GPS signal (albeit with the owner’s permission) from a cellphone left behind in the stolen vehicle. A similar FBI tactic was revealed in April in which Verizon allegedly reprogrammed a customer’s air card so it would accept phone calls and allow the FBI to track its location. (The target was Daniel David Rigmaiden, accused of leading a $4 million tax fraud operation.) In both FBI cases, the tactics were revealed through court documents, and we have no way to know how often they are used. This could be happening frequently or not at all—we have no idea!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=3357350

And of course it is possible to take control of the camera on your smart phone or computer.

Moreover – as documented by Microsoft, Ars Technica, cnet, the Register, Sydney Morning Herald, and many other sources – private parties can turn on your computer’s microphone and camera as well.
Cracked noted in 2010:
All sorts of programs are available to let you remotely commandeer a webcam, and many of them are free. Simple versions will just take photos or videos when they detect movement, but more complex software will send you an e-mail when the computer you’ve installed the program on is in use, so you can immediately login and control the webcam without the hassle of having to stare at an empty room until the person you’re stalking shows up.

The bottom line is that – as with your phone, OnStar type system or other car microphone, Xbox, and other digital recording devices – you shouldn’t say or do anything near your computer that you don’t want shared with the world.
http://www.infowars.com/is-the-government-spying-on-you-through-your-own-computers-webcam-or-microphone/

The terrorists hate us because of our freedoms. If we lose those freedoms, they win.

[GreenStormCloud]

33. California is also an SYG state. N/T

[ksoze]

23. The birthers are at least stupid - some smart people falling for BS

Suspension of logic when high on emotion and anger

[brush]

28. Every body, and I mean everybody

has cell phones with cameras.

Nobody has a picture of zimmy at the accident scene?

What's up with that? Where are the photos.

[GreenStormCloud]

34. That can be proof that it wasn't staged.

Think about it. If you were staging something you would make sure that somebody had a camera.

The camera in a phone have to turned on. They aren't always ready the way film cameras were. By the time you grab the phone, bring up the ap, you are already past the wreck.

[brush]

36. Maybe, but no photos of the car either?

Why does it seem that there are never any documentation with this guy. No witnesses on the Martin case and now again, no photos. We always have to take his word for stuff. And he's hardly believable.

[nytemare]

42. It's not his word.

It's the word of the people in the vehicle, the Sheriffs and Fire Department who responded. It's the other guy who helped pull the family out of the car.

No one out of fire rescue, the Sheriff's Office, EMT, the family in the vehicle, the other guy who pulled the people out, NONE of them have said, "No, Zimmerman wasn't there".

How many photos have you taken of accidents that you have passed in traffic? I have taken none in my entire life. I've stopped at three accidents, and haven't taken pictures of those either. The accident was in grass between the the entrance ramp from 417 on to I-4. I just took an opportunity to look at it in satellite view. It is a large grass area. Also, it's possible that the right lane of the interstate was blocked off. In Florida, if police or fire have their lights activated, it is the law to either get over a lane or slow down to 15 or 20 below the speed limit. So, you have a large grass area, Sheriff's Office cars and Fire Rescue, along with ambulances. You're driving, and you probably have to get over one lane. It's raining. You are rubbernecking to look at the accident. Are you looking for the car that wrecked, and is smoking / on fire (according to a 911 caller), or are you looking amongst all those cars and rescue and police for the fat schmuckball who was just acquitted?

[Vinnie From Indy]

56. I have read that there was no "family" in the car.

It was the Gertsle parents only. Also, what proof do you have that fire rescue or EMT's were called to the scene?

Here is police report:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/9ap70t0rphgniix/07-17-13_vehicle_crash_on_I-4_and_SR_46(1).pdf

As far as the "other" guy, he does not appear on the police report and neither does Zimmy. Do you know the name of this "other" guy? Has he made any comments about the accident?

Lastly, your OP is way off the mark in scolding people who have a healthy suspicion about this accident rescue that involved an alleged pedophile, proven liar and killer of unarmed children. Being suspicious of a man like Zimmy is a normal reaction and not an outlier position or a symptom of a CT minded person.

[nytemare]

61. Did you listen to the 911 calls in the OP?

Both of them mentioned fire. They were possible injuries, so fire / rescue was dispatched. Both callers mentioned children being present. Both calls mentioned that "they" got everyone out of the car. Multiple online reports stated that Zimmerman and another man helped to remove the family from the vehicle. None of the accounts are sensational. They just say that he and another man helped the family to get out of the vehicle. They don't imply that he carried them away from an explosion like Forest Gump carrying Bubba. The vehicle was turned on its side, so they may have just held their hands out or helped them down or held the door open.

A healthy suspicion is one thing. As I mentioned in my OP, I do not like Zimmerman. However, it is not just Zimmerman that people are dismissing in this incident. It is anyone who responded to the scene, the family who got in the wreck, the Fire Rescue / EMT personnel, and the Sheriff's Office. Some posters didn't even believe the accident happened. Some are making scornful remarks about the family. Some even seemed to imply that the whole accident and aftermath were staged to get Zimmerman some positive press. There was a great amount of vitriol in a good number of the posts I read. This is not just a healthy suspicion of Zimmerman, it is a piling on, and an implication that everyone else involved in the incident staged either the whole thing, or Zimmeman's involvement.

Having a suspicion of Zimmerman does not make what I want to believe about him true or untrue. I don't even believe that this changes anything. Martin is still dead. Nothing Zimmerman can do will change the fact that he took his life.

[Cha]

26. If it is true.. and all they had were zimmer man to rescue them..

then it's a damn good thing the Rehders weren't a Black Family.

[Wolf Frankula]

27. It Was Staged by the Freemasons

in collusion with the invisible lizards and the aliens who built the pyramids.

Wolf

[Captain Stern]

35. I don't think the story is fake.

I don't think it's fake for the simple reason that setting the whole thing up accomplishes absolutely nothing.

It's certainly not going to change the minds of people that think Zimmerman is a great guy that did the right thing. It's not going to change the minds of people that thing Zimmerman was in the wrong the night he killed Martin, and that the prosecution didn't prove it. And it's definitely not going to make the folks that think Zimmerman is a cold-blooded murderer think any differently of him.

It makes no sense that all the players in this would risk so much to accomplish absolutely nothing.

[cpwm17]

39. You're right

The 'crashers' haven't really thought this one through.

[anneboleyn]

75. I wrote on this below. Fanatics are not using logic

They are purely driven by emotion-- so IF someone wanted to help stage or facilitate an incident like this to "help" Zimmerman, he would not be thinking through it logically.

[anneboleyn]

74. But fanatics don't always think through matters with logic

You have outlined the problem very logically -- that staging, or facilitating (some think that the officer involved who was so very pro-Zimmerman on his Facebook page may have contacted Zimmerman who was a mile away from the scene --who knows) an event like this would not change many/most minds. But IF someone did something like this then that person is a fanatical supporter of Zimmerman, and he is determined to make Zimmerman look good and/or to convince the world of Zimmerman's goodness. In that person's mind the moment would have seemed just right for a chance for Zimmy to appear a hero and have a family and the children exclaiming that Zimmerman was such a heroic man, so helpful and selfless, therefore none of the "bad things" could be true. This would be fanaticism, not logic.

Whatever actually happened -- the media silence on the matter is rather odd -- it reminds me of the girl who worked for the McCain campaign (Ashley Todd) who wrote a backwards "B" on her face in 2008 and claimed that an African-American man had assaulted her while saying something about Obama. The Freepers, and the media, went crazy, and then they went totally silent as the story started to crumble apart. Or years ago when the infamous Morton Downey Jr. claimed that skinheads assaulted him in SFO. Years went by before the parties involved in that situation confessed to the truth of the matter.

[Lancero]

37. The...

Birth certificate is fake, the group that issued it is corrupt!

The police reports are fake, the group that issued them are corrupt!

The news story about his birth is fake, the Iluminati planted it way back then to help him became president!

The family intentionally crashed, they wanted to help Zimmerman!

Obama's father is Muslim, there is no way he could be a American!

Zimmerman is a stone cold killer, there is no way he would ever save people!

The parallels exist. Where the birthers stand right, this currently unnamed group of people (anyone got a catchy name for them? I'm thinking suver) mirrors them on the left. Basically... Same shit, diffrient asshole.

[Demoiselle]

41. Thank you, nytemare, for the term schmuckbucket. I'm going to steal it, if I may...

[nytemare]

43. You are more than welcome!

[Vattel]

47. You too should "use some critical thinking."

What evidence do you have that Zimmerman tried to make an arrest? No mucho, no? Critical thinking involves conforming your beliefs to the evidence.

[nytemare]

50. Here is the post to which I was referring:

Last edited Thu Jul 25, 2013, 09:58 PM - Edit history (1)

The video where Zimmerman went through the scene of the shooting with police. He said that after he shot Martin, a man approached, he told the man not to call 911, as they were already called, but to help him restrain Martin. It wasn't a "help me, keep this guy from killing me", it was a "help me restrain this guy". His mindset seemed more of a police officer who used deadly force than a citizen defending himself. Once things broke bad in the incident, I do think that he was essentially trying to effect an arrest and / or restrain Martin, based on what he said in the below link.

In the original call, his comments under his breath included saying "these fucking punks (or coons, I'm not so sure) always get away". He had made multiple calls to Sanford PD for suspicious black males in months leading up to the shooting, and no suspects had been caught in recent burglaries. He was a critic of the Sanford PD, at one point calling them lazy. There is a PDF of 40+ pages of calls for police service that he made. Whether he said punks or coons, he had it in his head that Martin was getting away with something, and his faith in the Sanford Police Department's ability to handle the issue was not good.

It's my opinion, again I say opinion, that the preponderance of evidence pointed more toward Zimmerman not wanting this guy to get away than feeling his life was in danger. Of course, I was not presented all the evidence in the case, nor did I watch much of the trial. I live in Central Florida, and had Casey Anthony burnout already.


The video I referred to is embedded here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023236614

On edit: here are the 911 and police service calls from Zimmerman:

http://www.motherjones.com/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history

Article on Zimmerman's opinion of Seminole County:
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/22/2813681/zimmerman-rode-with-cops-ripped.html

[Vattel]

68. No one witnessed Zimmerman trying to make an arrest prior to the fight.

"It's my opinion, again I say opinion, that the preponderance of evidence pointed more toward Zimmerman not wanting this guy to get away than feeling his life was in danger."

The evidence (which I won't enumerate in detail here) strongly supports the claim that Zimmerman was on his back getting his butt kicked when he shot Martin. So I don't think it is likely that he shot him to keep him from getting away as opposed to shooting him to eliminate a threat of harm. Zimmerman passed a lie detector test. When told (falsely) by Serino that the whole affair had been videotaped, he expressed relief. It is not likely he would do that if he had been lying about Martin being the aggressor. It is true that he did try to restrain Martin after he fired the shot, and I suppose that could lead one to wonder if he was afraid of Martin. But given his injuries, the three scrapes on Martin's knuckles, and the fact that Martin seemed to have the better of him in the struggle right before the shot was fired, I think he should, and most likely would, have been afraid.

[Trajan]

51. Who the fuck is 'we' ? ...

I really dislike when we are all grouped together as if we all open our fucking mouths and say exactly the same things ...

It's bullshit .. it's fallacious ... you don't speak for me ...

[nytemare]

52. Thank you for pointing that out. I edited my title.

to include some rather than we.

My intent was to show a reflection on us all that was created, but you've made a great argument.

[CindySessoms]

59. A total distraction

[nytemare]

63. Welcome to DU!

[Skittles]

65. distracting from the fact Zimmerman is a racist, paranoid gun humping killer

yes INDEED

[99Forever]

70. I don't believe what murderers say, ever.

How the fuck is that like "getting to be like the Birthers with this Zimmerman crash."

Abso-fucking-lutely ridiculous.

You want to defend a murdering scumbag, fine, just don't expect anyone with a brain to buy your nonsense.

[nytemare]

72. Because this wasn't just Zimmerman.

It's abso-fucking-lutely ridiculous to believe that ALL THE FIREFIGHTERS, EMT PERSONNEL, THE FAMILY OF FOUR IN THE CRASH, THE OTHER GUY WHO HELPED PULL THE FAMILY OUT, AND ANYONE ELSE THERE would just create this story out of thin air, for what? What? It won't change people's opinion of him one way or another.

If you would have read my post, you know, the giant first paragraph, you would have seen I was anything but defending Zimmerman, but, thanks for that accusation, straw-man.

What kind of coordination would it take for that many people to not come forward and say "ya know, no, I was there, Zimmerman wasn't"? This would be the kind of shit that causes people to lose their jobs.

People are calling the family in the crash liars, some were saying the crash didn't even happen, the crash was staged, oh where is the video, saying that there weren't children in the car (they didn't listen to the 911 tapes). Like some guy is going to risk his family to stage a crash and put his family's lives in danger? This is what has been on here. It's fucking preposterous.

This isn't a case of "oh I don't believe murdering scumbags". I don't believe him either. I believe the firefighters, responders, the family, the other guy, none of whom have given any indication that this didn't happen.

You believe what you want to believe, and blogspam, conjecture and speculation upon conjecture and speculation.

This is a left-wing conspiracy theory. Now, it's all over the It is not near as bad as the birthers on the right, because George Zimmerman is an over-zealous assassin of youth, but the mechanisms are the same. Here is what Cenk has to say about the whole matter:

[99Forever]

73. Fuck 'em all.

And everybody else that helps and enables that sleezeball murdering POS.

[rightsideout]

77. I'm a crasher

But I believe the accident really happened and Zimmerman's presence there was staged.

The press made it out to sound like Zimmerman happened on the scene to rescue people but other samaritans were there before he arrived.

NewsBall has a huge write up on it.

http://newsball.com/exclusive-pictures-of-the-family-that-george-zimmerman-saved-from-a-burning-car-or-was-it-staged/