Admiral nominee once deliberately shot down friendly aircraft

[Are_grits_groceries]

Capt. Timothy Dorsey is nominated for promotion to admiral despite a 1987 incident in which he intentionally fired a missile at an Air Force reconnaissance plane during a training exercise, nearly killing two aviators and destroying the aircraft, The Washington Times reported.

The official investigation into the shoot-down said the F-14 pilot’s decision “raises substantial doubt as to his capacity for good, sound judgment,” and the Navy banned him from flying its aircraft,the Times said.

Dorsey is one of several officers whose names were recently submitted for Senate confirmation by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta.

Dorsey, who was a rookie pilot at the time, declined the Times' request for comment.

The official report of the incident, obtained by The Associated Press, found that Dorsey knew the training was a no-fire exercise and that he fired the missile deliberately when given the command to simulate a launch. Today, the Navy routinely fires officers for less serious reasons.

http://www.stripes.com/news/navy/admiral-nominee-once-deliberately-shot-down-friendly-aircraft-1.169221?localLinksEnabled=false

Yeah, let's promote him and his good judgement to admiral.
I wonder who his rabbi is?

[taterguy]

1. As if you've never fired a missile when you weren't supposed to

Glass houses man

[Scuba]

3. Admiral? This guy's unqualified for Seaman.

[MADem]

9. To me, this is the comment that wins the thread!

[Owlet]

2. So what's the problem?

Sounds like just the kind of guy we want running things.

[Old and In the Way]

4. So how does someone like this get through the vetting process with this on his record?

I'm betting someone purposely withheld this information for the political embarrassment it would create.

[MADem]

8. Poppa was a flag officer! Well liked, too. nt

[Old and In the Way]

10. ahhhhh....the McCain career path.

Still, you'd think that Panetta would've torpedoed this recommendation - unless he wasn't told. I wonder if Republicans will jump on this? Maybe the senior Senator from Arizona will lead the faux outrage.

[MADem]

20. Panetta had to have known--he was on the HASC back then as the Rep from Monterey area.

That kind of friendly fire incident would have come to his (and every other member of the HASC/SASC's) attention.

Actually, what I suspect happened is that the kid (he as a j.g. when the incident occurred) did well ever after and made up for his pretty big boo boo.

McCain was King of the Fuckups, or at least the King of the Wrong Place/Wrong Time--he'd be the first to hand out second chances, assuming no one was killed. He wrecked a flight training aircraft in his early years--a miracle he wasn't pulverized. He wrecked two others, too--one in that big "Forest Fire" on the USS Forrestal off the coast of 'Nam that became "the" training film for what happens when your ship catches fire (another miracle of survival--he was not at fault in any way in that incident, he was a victim, his plane was hit by a wayward rocket as he sat in it, strapped in and ready to launch--he barely got out alive and did exhibit bravery in assisting others after he escaped his burning plane) , and the third time was shortly before he checked into the Hanoi Hilton--and that was a third time he beat the reaper.

Of course, in the case of this newly minted flag officer, he probably got plenty of help from his pop (who rose to the rank of a three star) and his pop's flag officer buddies, who no doubt made damn sure the kid got only the best assignments and the best opportunities, despite his early screwup. Some other schmuck surviving that kind of thing would end up in Kodiak AK, Diego Garcia, or some other garden spot.

One hand washes the other, both wash the face kind of deal.

You can see McCain rolling away from his aircraft in this brief clip from the Forrestal video--I found an excerpt on YT, the original is much longer and much more graphic--there's plenty of that over at YT for anyone interested, but it is a bit grim. Over a hundred sailors died in that event, which is still used to show recruits the devastating effects of fire at sea:

[jberryhill]

5. Once bitten, twice shy, I always say

I'm suspicious of people who have never made mistakes.

If you've never made a mistake, then you just aren't putting out enough effort.

[pinboy3niner]

6. Plus, he was "nearly killing two aviators and destroying the aircraft" with a simulated missile?

Seems a bit hyperbolic, doesn't it?

[hobbit709]

12. I wouldn't call that "simulated"

Even if it had a dummy warhead, the impact alone could have caused disaster.

[pinboy3niner]

16. The story says "simulated," not "dummy"

It's correct to report that he made a very serious error in the simulation. But "nearly killing" anybody seems over the top.

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. Where does the story talk about a 'simulated missile'? The other aircraft *was* destroyed

The Stripes article says "he fired the missile deliberately when given the command to simulate a launch". He really did fire the missile. The fuller Washington Times article that it links to says:

He was given a command to simulate a missile firing but took it literally, armed his Sidewinder missile without telling his back-seat radar intercept officer, and shot down the Air Force plane. Its two aviators ejected moments before the plane exploded.

The Navy’s 1988 investigative report on Lt. Dorsey was blunt and damning, according to the Associated Press, which obtained a copy via the Freedom of Information Act in 1988. It said Lt. Dorsey knew the plane was “friendly” and knew he was on a routine exercise.

“The September 22, 1987, destruction of USAF RF-4C was not the result of an accident, but the consequence of a deliberate act,” the investigator wrote. “His subsequent reaction (to the radio command) demonstrated an absolute disregard of the known facts and circumstances.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/feb/16/admiral-nominee-rose-through-ranks-despite-illogic/?page=all

[pinboy3niner]

23. Wow! That's quite different from a "simulation."

It's amazing that he wasn't cashiered out immediately.

Thanks for those details.

[jberryhill]

28. Okay, so he's got a lot of initiative and drive

Ask him to "simulate" and you get the real deal.

That's service above and beyond the call, imho.

[MADem]

21. No--he was supposed to "simulate" but he didn't. He got too into the role playing, or had a brain

fart.

This was back in the old days when it was easier to screw up.

[Swamp Lover]

11. I'm suspicious of people who end a snarky comment with

"I wonder who is rabbi is."

[pinboy3niner]

14. Ah, hippy lawyers...

Picky, picky, picky...

[Are_grits_groceries]

19. Why? nt

[Swamp Lover]

29. Care to explain the relevance?

[11 Bravo]

31. In military parlance a "rabbi" is a senior officer who has taken a protege under his protection.

I believe some police departments also use the same jargon.

[Swamp Lover]

32. Easily misunderstood.

Thank you for your knowledge.

[MADem]

7. John McCain wrecked three airplanes.

He spent a bit of time in the Hanoi Hilton after the third one....

Of course, it was only the first wreck that was really down to pilot error. The other two were circumstances a bit beyond his control.

We've had CNOs who ran ships aground in the past.

There are two reasons why this guy may have survived this (and I won't even make inter-service jokes about the plane he destroyed being a USAF asset).

First, this incident happened during the buildup to the "600 Ship Navy." We weren't doing a lot of firing at the time. After the Berlin Wall fell, the situation was reversed and we were firing people for idiotic reasons as a consequence of a force retraction.

The second reason is that this guy's DADDY was a flag officer--like McCain's daddy. When you've got your father and all his pals pulling for you, that helps wipe out even the biggest "Aw Shit" on your record.

There still is no small amount of nepotism in the Armed Forces--I don't care for it, myself, but there it is. I'm assuming he hasn't screwed up in such an enormous way since, to have recovered from his junior officer sin so nicely--and that was a Big Sin, as they go.

[cloudbase]

13. One of my flight instructors was a retired naval aviator.

He served on the staff of the senator's father and knew junior pretty well. His comments regarding the senator:

"As an aviator, he was a fuck-up."

[MADem]

25. You should have seen him as head of OLA!

He was Top Gun as an aviator by comparison!

[zipplewrath]

15. There's more to this story

Daddy is a big part of the reason he survived the original incident. Since then, he's learned how to build the relationships and alliances to get this far. Furthermore, there is something in the original incident that isn't well known, that "gave him cover". Probably someone else had apparent culpability, or at least an additional scapegoat was found.

[MADem]

24. Yes, as I noted elsewhere in the thread, paw made it to VADM. He no doubt helped the kid get decent

assignments working for people who would bring him along.

Every so often, the Navy (and other branches) "save" a fuckup. They do it when they figure it is a good bet, that the person will learn from their mistakes, and they also do it so they have an example to point to, to say "Look at so and so, he's in a top leadership job, now-- and did you know he ran a ship aground as a j.g?" kind of thing (USN actually did have a guy who made up for that kind of mistake in a big way during WW2 by the name of Nimitz!).

Someone has to be the poster boy for redemption. If it's always Zero Tolerance, that can be a morale buster.

[zipplewrath]

26. Difficult balance

It can be a tough balance. In an organization that needs people that know how to take risks, you have to be careful about punishing youthful risk takers (who won't always exercise great judgement in doing so). There's a saying I love.

Experience helps you avoid stupid mistakes.
Stupid mistakes is how you build experience.

[MADem]

27. Great points. The corollary to that is: Forgiveness is easier to obtain than permission!

There were times when I put that one into play. I was pretty lucky, though, I always managed by sheer dumb luck to pull through-- it could have been a nightmare if things had gone wobbly.

When you take a risk and things go right, you're gutsy. When you take a risk, and things go wrong, you're a fuckup.

Luck of the draw, karma, what-have-you...if you don't try, you will never succeed!

[alcibiades_mystery]

17. Video of post-incident report hearing

[Shankapotomus]

22. Well, I'm sure he didn't mean it (nt)

[NutmegYankee]

30. I think it's important to judge him on his career after this incident as well.

Even a younger man who screws royally can pull it together and become a model individual. I can't stand the current societal view that one screw-up forever ruins you and you might as well commit suicide because you will pay for that mistake the rest of your life. I believe in second chances.

[karynnj]

33. I know nothing of this person, but want to say that The Washington Times is a poor source - it is

the Moonie paper. To me, the story makes no sense. If he knew it was a no-fire exercise, even ignoring morality, shooting would be (and should be) an instantaneous career ender. It didn't end his career - suggesting their was at least more to the story than that.

[Incitatus]

34. It's seems like a bad idea to have live missiles on planes used by rookies during training.

There's no way to know what was going through his head at the time. I know nothing about the operation of military aircraft or the complexity of their missile systems. Did he seriously intend to kill the other pilots? Did the Oakland cop really intend to grab his taser instead of his gun? Maybe it was a major absent minded fuck up, maybe it was intentional.

[Octafish]

35. It was Air Force.

Tailhooks hate Bus Drivers.

In all seriousness: Most glad those two managed to eject.