Cops just shoot Everybody now, with surprisingly little social resistance

[cthulu2016]

There are enough people who reflexively side with police to put an upper limit on national outrage over cop shootings.

Cops now shoot people every day, without even 1% of the self-defense argument Zimmerman put forward, and without 1% of the legal scrutiny. A cop in Zimmerman's shoes would be given a medal!

Cops fire 100+ shots at an unarmed teenager and we don't examine what a reasonable person would have done. (The standard for self-defense) In practice, we seem to have a legal intent standard for cops, not the less forgiving reasonable standard we have for everyone else. Unless a cop demonstrably knowingly and intentionally murdered someone we assume self defense or other lawful killing because we assume that a cop is the walking definition of the legal entity known as the "reasonable person."

If a reasonable person would not have shot someone 8 times for scratching their eye-brow we set that aside because we, as a society, assume that if we wouldn't have shot in the circumstance that our failure to do so would be because we lack the training or experience of a cop.

We set aside our own notions of legal "reasonableness" of cop actions in the same way we defer to carpenters and dentists in their specialties.

And we also accept the unacceptable that "of course" prosecuters don't charge cops very often because they are team-mates... the prosecuters need the good will of the police to operate.

[MotherPetrie]

1. K&R

[WCLinolVir]

2. Is it crazy or what? I can't believe the number of cop shootings that seem unjustified.

I partly blame the militarization of our local police forces. No longer are they there to serve and protect. They have developed an us vs them mentality,

[DirkGently]

7. And they expect everyone they're dealing with to have guns.

[Bay Boy]

77. What would you have them do?

It seems like the prudent thing to do.

[DirkGently]

79. What? Expect guns, or shoot the innocent?

[Bay Boy]

81. Well, you said:

"And they expect everyone they're dealing with to have guns"

So, yes, I would think they should assume everyone they pull over has a weapon (gun).
No, I don't think they should shoot the innocent.

[nxylas]

67. New police uniform revealed

[truedelphi]

68. nxylas, I think you meant this cop portrayal as parody?

but in reality, it is what we Americans are up against.

Here is an article about the Bearcat tanks that have been handed out like party favors to over 65 counties in California. Please note - our schools and fire districts are about thirty percent of what they were ten years ago - yet our County lawmakers lap up these trinkets, knowing that "someone else" is paying for them.

Berkeley news article, with photo of the vehicle:
http://berkeley.patch.com/groups/politics-and-elections/p/armored-tanks-in-berkeley

Marin County news paper with article:
http://millvalley.patch.com/groups/politics-and-elections/p/does-the-marin-sheriff-s-office-need-a-370k-armored-truck

[nxylas]

70. When Judge Dredd was created in 1977, it was intended as satire

Nowadays, it seems less like science fiction and more like a standard policier.

[WCLinolVir]

72. The sheriff's office is usually not as well funded as the police dept. Talk about overkill.

In Marin no less.

[truedelphi]

74. The rationale behind it is this vehicle would come in handy if

There was a home invasion, with hostages taken. However, given that on any given weekday, Marin is in total, shut down traffic gridlock from 9 Am to 5Pm, the vehicle is worthless unless the Homeland Security people have a twelve million dollar helicopter that can pick the tank up and deliver it to the crime location.

[KansDem]

3. Yeah, how do you protect yourself from rouge cops?

Even the smallest protest is seen as "obstructing justice." That was the charge the cop levied against the woman who he slammed to the ground, breaking her front teeth. Her crime? She walked between the cop's car and the car he was investigating.

But then, try to protect yourself from their physical violence and you're charged with "resisting arrest."

[Orrex]

29. You need a good foundation to protect yourself from rouge cops

[IrishAyes]

30. You caught that too, did you?

Now apologize to a serious poster!

[Orrex]

32. You're going to make me blush.

[IrishAyes]

36. How, when I felt the same urge? Tempting target.

[Orrex]

37. Well, we all need a chance to makeup for our mistakes.

[IrishAyes]

38. Lord help me, how I love a good pun.

[Orrex]

39. Me too. Someday I hope to post one.

Until then, you'll have to put up with these dreadful little offerings.

[IrishAyes]

45. Maybe I'm too lowbrow

But they suit me fine.

One reason I loved the tv show Frasier was because the puns flew fast and furious. It was one of the few shows that could actually make me laugh out loud. Of course there were also the funny lines between the lines, as when Roz rhapsodized about her date with a Frenchman and Frazier sympathized: "So it finally happened, then... no American men left."

[KansDem]

73. rogue

[IrishAyes]

83. Don't feel bad. We all do that occasionally.

I even once heard Walter Cronkite refer to the 'space shittle'.

[LuvNewcastle]

4. We have also been taught to assume that everyone is out to get the cops.

We're bombarded with shows that depict cops who are in constant danger from insane deviant criminals. We're always reminded how dangerous the job is and how heroic they are for going to work every day. Actually, there are a lot of jobs that are more dangerous, but we don't see those people as heroes, even though their jobs might be just as necessary. And too many cops feed off this idea that people are always out to get them. Too many see all of us as adversaries instead of people they're supposed to be protecting and serving.

[Go Vols]

8. +1

[IrishAyes]

33. Two jobs I've seen cited as more dangerous

taxicab driver and farmer

[LuvNewcastle]

40. Farmers are most certainly heroes, then.

Risking life and limb to provide all of us with food. Truly, what would we do without them? We should have ceremonies honoring fallen farmers. I'm only half kidding here.

[IrishAyes]

46. Well, perhaps some sympathy and appreciation for the vanishing family farmer

Who's rapidly being replaced by giant mechanical farms run by very few people sitting safely in an air conditioned building. Don't get me started on those.

[IrishAyes]

61. (sigh...)

I suppose you'll expect me to look up references for you, but considering your perceived attitude, I might decide to leave that little chore to you if you're so damned sure I'm wrong.

But I live in a farming community and therefore get a lot of agribusiness media input enough to know what's going on. Robotic mechanization is real and increasing by giant agribusinesses which bear no resemblance to what most people think of as 'farming'. If I feel like looking it up for you someday, maybe I will. Until then, don't necessarily sneer at what you don't know.

Or do you still imagine horse-drawn farming implements? Only on Amish farms, dear city child.

[happyslug]

57. Police are only # 9 in list of most dangerous jobs

Last edited Tue Jul 30, 2013, 11:02 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.businessinsider.com/most-dangerous-jobs-2011-9?op=1

Behind,
1. Fishers and fish related workers 116 for every 100,000 workers
2. Loggers 91.9
3. Pilots and Flight Engineers 70.6
4. Farmers and Ranchers 41.4
5. Miners 38.9
6. Roofers 32.4
7. Refuse workers 22.8
8. Truck and other commercial drivers 21.8

Police are # 9 on this list at 18.0 per 100,000 workers

and just ahead of

10. Electrical power workers 15.6
11. Constructions workers 15.6
12. Taxi drivers 16.1
13. Ground maintenance workers 14.0
14. Athletes, umpires, referees and coaches 11.3
15. Operating engineers and construction equipment operators 11.0

Please note if you add Operating Engineers and Construction Operators (#15 on the list) with Constructions Workers (# 11 on the list) the total per 100,000 is 26.6 per 100,000 which would make them #7, ahead of Refuse Workers, Truck drivers and Police (and pushing police to #10 and the only one below 20 per 100,000 in the top 10).

Of the 133 Police officers killed in 2010, only 53 was the result of NON AUTOMOTIVE ACCIDENTS. i.e. if you exclude auto accidents (most of which do NOT occur in chases) Police do not even make the top 15.

i.e. only 40% of all Police officers deaths involve NON traffic accidents. 40% of 18.0 per 100,000 is 7.2 per 100,000, which is below #15 Operating engineers kill rate of 11.0 per 100,000.

Now the Daily Beast puts Police in #12 most dangerous jobs:

Article:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/04/08/the-20-most-dangerous-jobs.html

Actual list:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2010/04/07/dangerous-jobs.html#viewAll


The Daily beast agrees with the above for # 1 and #2 then produces a different list, but they give weight to all injuries not just fatal injuries: Thus two groups are listed BELOW police, even through more people DIED in those groups then did Police Officers (Truck drivers and Taxi Drivers), and one group (Millers) were rated ABOVE Police Officers even through it had LESS deaths then police officers BUT also had more reported other injuries and thus rate above Police Officers as a more dangerous jobs:

1. Fishers and fish related workers at 129 for every 100,000 workers, but only a total injury rate of 61 per 100,000 workers
2. Loggers at 116 for every 100,000 workers, but only a total injury rate of 7 per 100,000 workers
3. Rancher/Farmers at 40 killed per for every 100,000 workers but only a total injury rate of 7 per 100,000 workers
4. Structural Construction Workers at 46 killed per for every 100,000 workers but only a total injury rate of 6 per 100,000 workers
5. Sanitation workers at 37 killed per 100.000 workers, but with a total injury rate of 5 per 100,000 workers
6. Pilots and flight Engineers at 72 Killed per 100,000 workers, but only a total injury rate of 2 per 100,000 workers.
7. Roofers, at 34 Killed per 100,000 workers, but only a total injury rate of 3 per 100,000 workers.
8. Miners, at 22 Killed per 100,000 workers, but only a total injury rate of 6 per 100,000 workers.
9. Merchant Mariners, at 23 Killed per 100,000 workers, but only a total injury rate of 5 per 100,000 workers.
10. Miller, at 12 Killed per 100,00 but only a total injury rate of 9 per 100,000 workers.
11. Power Line installer, at 30 Killed per 100,000 workers, but only a total injury rate of 3 per 100,000 workers.

12: Police.at 16 Killed per 100,000 workers, but only a total injury rate of 3 per 100,000 workers.

13. Fire Fighter, at 7 Killed per 100,000 workers, but only a total injury rate of 6 per 100,000 workers.
14. Oil and gas Drillers, at 23 Killed per 100,000 workers, but only a total injury rate of 1 per 100,000
workers.
15. Cement Maker, at 13 Killed per 100,000 workers, but only a total injury rate of 3 per 100,000 workers.
16. Taxi Drivers at 21 Killed per 100,000 workers, but only a total injury rate of 1 per 100,000 workers.
17. Truck Drivers at 22 Killed per 100,000 workers, but only a total injury rate of .4 per 100,000 workers.
18. Construction Equipment Operators, at 16 Killed per 100,000 workers, but only a total injury rate of .4 per 100,000 workers.
19. Animal Slaughter, at 2 Killed per 100,000 workers, but only a total injury rate of 1 per 100,000 workers.
20. Security Guard, at 8 Killed per 100,000 workers, but only a total injury rate of .4 per 100,000 workers.

[LuvNewcastle]

69. Thanks for providing that info.

I feel guilty about not knowing how dangerous the fishing industry is, since I live in an area with a lot of commercial fishermen. And God knows I've seen plenty of episodes of The Deadliest Catch.

All those jobs look pretty indispensable to me; I appreciate all of the people who keep up the standard of living to which we've become accustomed. A lot of those jobs don't pay very well. It's good to think about all the contributions that people make with little or no praise. It's a shame that a lot of those men and women don't get as much attention for what they do. Maybe we all should say something to them now and then; it might just make their day a little better.

[IrishAyes]

82. I'm always griping about this flyspeck town where I retired

But periodically have to pause long enough to praise some of the nicer residents. In particular the city workers; we recently bought our very own garbage truck and now employ 2 men instead of the previous outside company. Those guys are as nice as they come around here. I have a fence all around my yard, so if I'm outside when they come, they hand the can back across to me, and if I'm not they still set it carefully upright. Not so with other customers that I see. Oh, maybe it has something to do with how I always smile and say thank you.

[AtheistCrusader]

5. Of course I'm not going to resist.

I don't want to get shot!

[frylock]

10. define resist.

[AtheistCrusader]

14. It was a joke

[Orrex]

22. Joke is futile

[AtheistCrusader]

23. It's a defense mechanism.

[Orrex]

26. Defense is irrelevant. Joke is futile.

[font size=1]As it turns out, my Borg reference was even more feeble than I originally expected...[/font]

[AtheistCrusader]

27. I should have caught that.

The failure is mine.

[Orrex]

31. LOL

It was a bit of a stetch to hang it on "resist," but I figured I'd give it a try.

[leftyladyfrommo]

6. And look at all the people who die from stun guns.

I stay away from the police.

I never know how to answer this kind of stuff. We have gangbangers in this city that are really violent and dangerous. It takes violent and dangerous cops to take them on. But that might be what 10% of what goes on? The rest of the time no violence is necessary at all.

What I don't understand is why so many mentally ill people end up dead. Why don't the cops just back off, keep the individual boxed up somewhere and call in people who know how to deal with mentally disturbed people. Sometimes all they would have to do is close the bedroom door if the person has a knife of other weapon. Then call for help from people who are trained to handle those situations. Why do they feel like they have to go in like gangbusters and end up shooting the poor disturbed person.

[IrishAyes]

34. To protect him from himself, of course!

ie, Burn the village to save it.

[awoke_in_2003]

41. Reminescent of Viet Nam. nt

[IrishAyes]

47. I know one of the guys who was at My Lai

and he still defends that massacre. Of course we don't speak anymore.

[sorefeet]

9. My enemies don't live in the middle

east, my enemies live right here. Crooked politicians, supreme court judges and cops are the first group.

[Angelonthesidelines]

11. RATM

Yes I know my enemies. They're the teachers who taught me to fight me

[The Straight Story]

12. I think because some believe only cops are responsible enough to even own a gun

Even though they are just like the rest of us - the badge and fact that the government pays them seems to imbue them with special powers that we don't have when it comes to ownership/use of guns.

Have seen people say seeing a civilian with a gun freaks them out and scares them - when it is more likely that a cop would use one and not go to jail over doing so than a normal person.

We have come to trust only the government and see each other as enemies just waiting to kill each other to the point we don't care if they spy on everything we do. We take what less than 1 percent do and project it onto all others in an attempt to control and abate our fears, which is what the government wants because it helps them to not only increase their powers but makes us more complacent when they do things since they alone are who we believe should protect us (protecting yourself is not something many want, so we label people who want to as nuts/humpers/etc and so on in order to degrade them and avoid actual discussions).

In an us vs them battle the 'us' will lose because we define everyone else as being outside of our personal tent and those people are surely out to get us in some way. We don't mind if the wealthy are protected by people with guns, or government officials, but for the private citizen the best you can hope for is that some cop somewhere will know when your home is being broken into and magically show up at just the right time.

Truly we have lost when the government is our hammer and everyone but our own self is a nail.

[Orrex]

25. I think that's an over-simplification

the badge and fact that the government pays them seems to imbue them with special powers that we don't have when it comes to ownership/use of guns.

In my entire life I have met no one who actulally believes that. Instead, the expectation is that police will be trained in the use of firearms and conflict resolution to a greater degree than any average citizen who happens to obtain a pistol. I don't dispute that police often fail to live up to this expectation, but it's a mistake to characterize the expectation as some sort of faith in "special powers."

In addition, it is reasonable to expect that police will acquire specialized knowledge and wisdom due to experience and the nature of their work, in much the same way I expect you are knowledgeable of your own field in a way that other people are not. This, too, is different from any average citizen grabbing a gun and claiming authority by fiat.

However, police are indeed legally imbued with "special powers" specifically because they have earned their badges. Cops have greater authority to enter crime scenes and restricted areas, for instance, and they enjoy special protections that you and I do not.

That is not to say that they are entitled to engage in brutality or other wrong-doing, but it is simply a mistake to declare that "they are just like the rest of us."

[AnotherMcIntosh]

13. On the plus side, most of the time they miss. Recently, eg, they fired 17 rounds and hit only once.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023365205

And who can forget this gray truck that was supposedly driven by a large Black man but who apparently changed his appearance and the appearance of his truck? The cops fired more than 100 rounds but only managed to shoot one of the two women. Even then, they shot her in the back only twice.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

15. As shown by events, cops are being purposely trained to deliver unnecessary and excessive violence.

They are training them - nationwide - to treat the American populace as the enemy.

[zeemike]

19. That is exactly correct.

And that is why the like ex military to become cops, because they are already trained to shoot to kill and ask questions later...and then piss on the body.

We have us a police state now but we are in denial...at least many of us are.

[Dustlawyer]

52. I am not here to defend all cops, many don't deserve shit from us, but many do!

When the next big protest comes, it will be the cops on the payroll of the corporations and the 1% that will be sent to put us down! Who can forget the OWS protestors (ladies) that were cordoned off and standing there being guarded by blue shirted NY cops when the white shirted supervisor walked up and maced them? This was right after Wall Street made a $20,000,000.00 donation to the NYPD pension fund! Most cops are Republican b/c that is who they think butters their bread. Here in Texas Gov. Perry and AG Greg Abbott speak to them annually at their convention. Wendy Davis needs to make a move on them, who could resist?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

53. Many? Not a single one.

Last edited Wed Jul 31, 2013, 12:12 AM - Edit history (1)

Even this guy is a retired police captain.



They are either miliarized thugs who openly suppress Constitutional rights with unlawful violence or they are part of the Blue Wall of Silence. The latter ones not only routinely refrain from any action that can be considered criticism of their fellow cops, but they will also join in while giving false statements, planting evidence, and even falsely testifying under oath.

They have collectively destroyed the rule of law in this country with other who have set out to do so.

[Dustlawyer]

54. That is like saying all blacks are criminals, all Southern whites are Red Necks...

I have worked with cops and been on ride-a-longs with them. I was like the token liberal except some of them would confide in me that they felt like i did but did not feel like they could "come out" to their peers for fear of reprisals. Their profession attracts people on power trips, adrenaline junkies, steroid abusers... So is there a problem, yes, does it involve all cops no! You act just like Mitt Romney speaking about the other 47%! He would not condescend to speak to anyone in that other 47%, much less get to know them (us)! I have seen them cross the thin blue line before several times. i know of cops that have been shot, run over by a drunk, and be forced to shoot a high school classmate in a suicide by cop scenario, all the same cop. This man would die to protect us. Until you walk a mile in their shoes I would suggest that you do not generalize about ALL cops.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

62. No, it's not. You are a lawyer? And you reason that "is like saying all blacks are criminals,

Southern whites are Red Necks ..."

Absolutely not.

Your analogies do not fit because being a cop is a choice.

All persons who put on the blue uniform, whether they unconstitutionally brutalize others or merely join in protecting them with the Blue Wall of Silence, chose to do so.

It's more like saying all those who chose to join Hitler's SchutzStaffel (or SS) were evil assholes. Do you think that there were exceptions? After choices were made to join the SS, no thinking person would excuse those who joined by saying "Yes, there were some bad apples."

As for the SchutzStaffel analogy, we are not there yet. We are not going to be there for a while. But we are moving in that direction. The brutalization of the Occupy Wall Street protestors, with no objection from the higher ups, shows exactly what is happening.

So they bought you or your conscience off with a ride-along or two? Or you decided that you wanted to make some friends in the police department in your area?

You say with respect to a particular cop that you've befriended, or who has befriended you, or has given the appearance of befriending you,

"This man would die to protect us."

Here's a clue. If one of his colleagues or a group of them were attacking you, that's the last thing that he would do. You think not? Look around. Look at what is going on in other police departments. With the militarization of the police, they view the American citizenry as the enemy or potential enemy.

You want to be their friend. Disregard the Blue lawlessness. Forget about the "drop guns," the bag of marijuana or other drugs that they just happened to find, the hundreds of deaths caused by the casual use of Tasers. You'll think that if you are their friend, they will be yours. Until you put on the blue uniform and prove by the passage of time on the job that you, too, will overlook Blue criminality, they are not really your friends.

Has the cop that you admire so (the one who "would die to protect us&quot ever seen Blue criminality? Has he - like Serpico from a long time ago - risked his life to protect the citizenry against his fellow cops? If he has been on the job for a while, he is not going to.

[Dustlawyer]

86. I see where you are coming from, but I could not disagree more. There are a lot of bad cops, yes,

but to say that because they chose to be a cop that they automatically are dirty and ALL COPS would cover for each other is totally false. I know more than this one cop, I got to know a lot of them, the good, the bad, and the really bad. My point is that you cannot make blanket statement about a group of people, any group, and have it be true across the board.
I get angry when I see them covering up for some asshole, but I have also seen where they don't and that SOB got fired! It is not always black and white. I have argued with many of them about this very issue because most will cover for a fellow officer b/c they want their back covered if there happens to be trouble. It is a natural human reaction seen in soldiers as well. You looked out for the guys in your platoon, even the ones you did not like so that they would watch your back. Many of these cops are ex-military so it comes naturally. This will always be an issue because you have to opposite competing motivational factors, doing the right thing vs. self preservation.
From my standpoint, I try to understand the reality of the situation. It is wrong to abuse the power that the police have, but it happens all of the time. When a cop becomes a repeated or serial abuser of his power, most departments find other ways to get rid of them. Some departments actually do the right thing and shit can them the 1st time. Unfortunely, most do not. By keeping a dialog with the leaders of 13,000 law enforcement members, I have been pushing for changes that would help to clean up a lot of departments. There are a lot of "Sheriff Joe Arpaio's" out there as I am sure you will agree.
I guess we will always see this differently, but I KNOW them and what they do. I am involved and working to better them. I would suggest that Progressives should do the same, get to know the cop in your neighborhood. Go on ride-a-longs, and expose them to the truth and to Progressive thought. When it comes to the protests that I see in this countries future, it would be good to know some cops, but also good to have some that have been converted to progressive ideas instead of the brainwashed RW bullshit.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

87. I "cannot make blanket statement about a group"? Sure I can. All SchutzStaffel were evil assholes.

You say,

"When a cop becomes a repeated or serial abuser of his power, most departments find other ways to get rid of them."

Even when serial abusers are fired, they can apply to other police departments who like to hire lateral transferrers because it eliminates the cost of sending recruits to police academies.

If prosecutors would otherwise put them in prison, it would be more difficult for such lateral transfers to take place.

[Dustlawyer]

88. Each cop has a "Jacket" that follows them around that is kept on them by law.

Depending on what is put in it determines whether he can get hired again. Insurance requirements would prevent bad actors from being hired by any law enforcement agency. Is it fool proof, no, nothing ever is, but from what I have personally seen, the bad cops then become rent-a-cops.
We both would agree, I think, that the problem of bad cops seems to be escalating, even taking into account that cell phone video has now shone light on what has been happening since the first cop was sworn in. We would also probably agree that the 1% and the corporations will use cops to try to stop future protests.
Where we disagree is that I believe that their are cops that are still worthy of both our respect and admiration. Being an attorney I know what it is like to have people pre-judge me based on my occupation. You, like many, probably agree that ALL attorneys are crooks. I know that to be false but it does not change the perception. People distrust what they fear, and many people fear both cops and attorneys.
I will never stop fighting for what I believe is the only chance of saving this once great nation, publicly funded elections and complete campaign finance reform. It will take a massive uprising focused exclusively on this root cause of our problems, corruption of our whole political process, to fix this situation. We will need some support from people in law enforcement gained by conversations with friends and family to overcome the brainwashing they get. Without cops on the inside fighting for our cause it will be that much more difficult for us. I for one am not ready to throw in the towel and make an enemy of each and every law enforcement officer b/c many of them are corrupt, or just plain abusive.

[dreamnightwind]

89. Great post

I found this thread a little late, so not expecting discussion, but 2 thumbs up.

I'm not quite as anti-cop as you seem to be, they're human and they have the usual variances of human personality. But you are largely correct. The hiring practices and training weed out passive reasonable types, or train them to be more aggressive. Authoritarian types are naturally drawn to police work. They protect their own (other cops) more than they protect us. They needlessly escalate situations. Leftists or people that vibe that way are treated with suspicion (because we're not the same kind of people as the cops, for the most part) as are minorities. I fear the police more than I fear criminals. And yes, we're well on the road to an actual police state, signs of it everywhere.

[Egalitarian Thug]

76. You're an attorney, so how many times have you been able, or know of other attorneys that

have been able to get a cop to testify against another cop?

I agree that it's a relatively small percentage of cops that are out-of-control, over-the-top gangsters, but the other 90% that protect them are just as guilty.

[haele]

16. When there's too many rats in a cage -

Homicide and cannibalism is barely reacted to by the majority of rats in that cage. They've taken on almost a mob mentality where any one rat that does not appear conform to the group structure is casually and perminantly expelled from that social group by the other rats that are the "enforcers" for the heirarchy in place.
Not saying people are rats, but human society is not too much different than other natural socieites - whenever resources are stretched and the community is stressed, every problem is a nail and the designated police are used as a hammer.

Haele

[Comrade Grumpy]

17. It's time for a national commission on law enforcement standards and practices.

He said again.

[LAGC]

18. But... but... MILK JUGS, and stuff!

Protecting and serving... the upper-class.

[Marblehead]

44. ha

where's my milk? Here's your stinking milk, blam, blam..

[Vanje]

20. Our "security" is more important than individual rights

sarcasm.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

21. Seems society has embraced the idea that those who question authority (or defy it) should die.

[JackRiddler]

24. In part the harvest of 50+ years...

of non-stop police state propaganda serving as the nightly entertainment on the TV.

[Orrex]

35. Philip K Dick wrote about exactly that, in fact

Prescient.

[KansDem]

75. Yeah, I remember TV shows during the 1960s when cops lamented...

...the need to not violate anybody's civil rights. They would remind each other in a derisive tone.

Kind of reminds me of this line from "The Enforcer" (1951):

Capt. Frank Nelson: What's wrong with the law that we can't touch him? (Mendoza, boss of murder ring)
Capt. Frank Nelson: Oh, I know, our kind of laws are designed to protect the innocent. It's not enough we know a man is guilty - we have to prove it.

That's right: the police know he's guilty, but they have to "prove it."

But this kind of attitude permeated the movies of the time, clear up through Clint Eastwood's "Dirty Harry" series.

"Dirty Harry" (1971)

Chief: Have you been following that man?
Harry Callahan: Yeah, I've been following him on my own time. And anybody can tell I didn't do that to him.
Chief: How?
Harry Callahan: Cause he looks too damn good, that's how!

And...

The Killer: (pleading) Please! No more! I'm hurt! Can't you see I'm hurt? You shot me! Please, don't, don't! Let me have a doctor, let-let me have a doctor. Please, get me the doctor! Don't kill me!
Harry Callahan: The girl, where is she?
The Killer: (crying with reason) You tried to kill me!
Harry Callahan: If I tried that, your head would be splattered all over this field.
(demanding)
Harry Callahan: Now, where's the girl?
The Killer: (almost crying) I want a lawyer.
Harry Callahan: (angered) I said, where's the girl?
The Killer: (cries) I have the rights to a lawyer.
Harry Callahan: (raises his voice) Where's the girl?
The Killer: I have the rights to a lawyer!
(Harry looks at Scorpio's wound on his leg)
The Killer: Don't, please!
(Harry begins begins to slowly push his shoe on the wound)
The Killer: I have right to a lawYEEER!
(Scorpio begins to scream in pain as the camera zooms out)

But we all knew he was guilty!

[Dawson Leery]

28. Deference and reverence of the uniform/authority are the reason for this.

[joeybee12]

42. Part of living in a police state is that it's residents get numbed to

what police do...knr

[etherealtruth]

43. Drove up to Toronto, Ontario this morning

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Latest-News-Wires/2013/0730/Streetcar-shooting-in-Toronto-sparks-outrage-about-possible-excessive-force

"A Toronto police officer was suspended with pay after he fatally shot a young man wielding a knife in an empty streetcar, police said Monday, as hundreds of people in Canada's largest city protested the shooting that was caught on video and posted on YouTube.'

...

"Some protesters called it unnecessary police force. A former Toronto police detective who saw the video said it appeared that "excessive" force had been used. Investigators were looking into the circumstances surrounding the shooting, the city's police chief said."

Toronto residents are horrified and enraged. I doubt the powers that be in Toronto will let this go ... the citizenry will not accept this either. Listening to local newscasts regarding: my use of the word "enraged" is rather mild!

[The Wizard]

48. Does the average person

feel threatened or safe when they see a cop? We have become a fascist police state that worships uniforms. The police are there to ensure the safety of the wealthy elites. The rest of us are targets for their abuse, many times steroid induced.
They also never get charged with DWI, although alcohol use is common.
They like to rant about putting their lives on the line every day, but hell, many don't even come close to that, and they make damn good money to protect the upper class.

[RoccoR5955]

59. I know of a county sheriff

who never ever gets a DWI, even though he drinks like a fish.
I was at a retirement party for a co-worker a few years back, and this clown was belting down doubles of bourbon like they were water!
He went into his car and drove home. How he could walk is beyond me.

[Logical]

49. Juries are just plain stupid. 100% trust the police. n-t

[Tyrs WolfDaemon]

65. My dad was a lawyer and had stories about that stuff

In one case a cop on the witness stand told the court that my dad's client (short guy - 110lbs wet) picked up a large Motorcycle over his head and threw it at the cop, which explained why they were so rough with the guy as they arrested him (and adding an assaulting a police officer charge).

The jury actually believed the cop even though they could see with their own eyes that my dad's client could never have picked the bike up more than an inch, much less throw it.

[Logical]

71. Wow, how depressing. I am sure your dad could write a book. n-t

[COLGATE4]

78. Maybe the jury heard that the 'short guy' was

on Meth at the time - Meth users can do absolutely amazingly dangerous physical things when they're high.

[Tyrs WolfDaemon]

85. I asked my dad about it.

Apparently the client happened to be at a house that got raided for selling pot. The guy tried to run which is when the cop claimed that he picked up the bike and threw it.

The client wasn't on meth. According to my dad, he only had one case in which meth was involved back then. When he was practicing, meth just wasn't a problem around here.

My dad did say that the cop got in trouble a year or so later for stealing pistols from the evidence storage room. He got a slap on the wrist for it. He was fired and made to return the guns. He should have been sent to jail.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

91. He was fired? Then he may have gotten picked up by another department, one that wanted an

experienced cop to save on the cost of sending a new recruit to a police academy.

Any cop that transfers into a new department should be viewed with suspicion. More likely than not, they are moving to a new department because they screwed up at an old one, or got caught doing so.

[Logical]

93. So true. Happens all the time. n-t

[pipi_k]

95. 100%?

Really?

I'm interested in knowing how you manage to travel all over the country interviewing thousands of jurors on their attitude on the police.

[VADem1980]

50. I will say this to I am blue in the face-

Cops act the way they do because we give them the toys to oppress.

Take away their guns, tazers, and body armor. The only thing 99% of officers need is mace, hand cuffs, and maybe a baton.

1.) We should have a system like in Europe where the officers don't carry guns as part of their normal part of duty, rather when an incident breaks out, they must dispatch a pre-approved teams to respond if firearms are necessary. For example, if they responded to a terrorist attack.

2.) Again, unless responding to an incident- no body armour. Not only is this part of the militarization of our police services, but it let's cops think their invincible. If they were not wearing body armour, they would be as vulnerable as citizens and would be forced to deal with situations with their heads and mouths instead of their weapons.

3.) Tazers- national ban, period. They are implements of torture and nothing more.

Implement these things, and you will see a dramatic drop in police murders and beatings.

[MannyGoldstein]

51. I suspect that some parts of our country are different

I don't hear about insane stuff happening in New England too often.

[AAO]

55. Thank God I'm not non-white!

Or I'd be in even more trouble than I'm in already!

[RoccoR5955]

58. These days they shoot to kill

I remember when, when they would shoot, they would shoot to disarm.
AFAIC, it's unacceptable, on many levels. Cops have become judge and jury. It's only their job to apprehend "criminals," and let the justice system take care of punishment.

[reformist2]

60. Even if it is just a mistake, any policeman that does this should be 'retired' from the force.

Or at least given a desk job. He/she certainly shouldn't be allowed to continue carrying a weapon on the job.

Just knowing this could be their fate ought to be a good deterrent for all policemen, making them a little less eager to use their guns.

[DeSwiss]

64. They're taking down the scenery......

- K&R

[adirondacker]

66. They're just trying to make the red dot larger.

Last edited Wed Jul 31, 2013, 10:17 AM - Edit history (1)

[Rex]

80. That has really bothered me as of late.

I mean, if you get shot for raising your hands in the air...what's left? I guess they could cuff you and THEN shoot you. The police state needs to be audited.

[IrishAyes]

84. tsk tsk

The same poster voluntarily deleted his two posts before and after my #61. I saw the first; if the second was half as bad, I don't blame him for deleting it. Kinda wonder if he found out I'm right. Couldn't have been a sudden attack of conscience, not after the high contempt with which he addressed me in the first post.

Guess I'll never know now.

[FreeJoe]

90. The Stats

The first thing that I do when someone makes a general statement about something being worse than it use to be is to look for data that can confirm or refute that. Given that they record every instance when a law enforcement officer kills someone, I thought that would be easy. I struck out. I found lists of people killed in the last few years, but nothing going back far enough to find trends. I find the lack of readily available data about something so important to be a little disturbing. Maybe I was just off my data gathering game today and someone else can find a good source.

[FarCenter]

92. There are 400-500 killed by police annually, and about 50 to 100 police killed

http://boston.com/community/blogs/crime_punishment/2012/08/justifiable_homicides_by_polic.html

Total murders run about 14,000 annually.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdf

[Logical]

94. Only about 37% of police being killed are by criminals. Most are accidents. n-t

[FarCenter]

96. The 50 to 100 was for felonious killing -- it varies quite a bit year to year

But yes, far more die on the job in accidents -- usually driving or in traffic stops.