Could Bush have stolen the 2004 election via spying?

[Gregorian]

This may be a silly thing to bring up, but I remember that night in 2004 when we all watched, and posted on this forum, as the exit poll results came in, and the vote tallies were updated. And then the utter shock when suddenly, as if a switch had been flipped, it all turned around. And I'll never forget Rove picking up his phone in the White House just as it all changed. We all wondered.

They only needed to monitor a few select locations. And perhaps there was more going on than just listening, if they were. I imagine that if they had the ability to secretly scrutinize, they would. They had done worse. I'm also imagining that if they did have access to data, as well as control of the voting machines, then they could have done what I'm suggesting.

Tell me where this is wrong. Or worse, tell me that we have already had this discussion.

[RobertEarl]

1. Not silly at all

But there are so many in deep denial about stolen elections that you are sure to get some posters wanting to make it seem silly.

Most of the republicans were never even truly elected. That's why the country is in such deep trouble. They know they were not truly elected so they have nothing to lose, and are killing what little democracy remains.

[Dawson Leery]

2. There could be a reason why Peter King (the grand dragon of Nassau County)

is so defensive over the Snowden revelations.

[Gregorian]

6. That's the brazen attitude that was so revealing at the time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Elections are never stolen in the US

The greatest democracy on earth, so say we all

for those who need it.

Yes, the election was stolen. Yes, the Excelsior had an exposé of several pages in Mexico City involving Cuyahooga Co, later taken by John Conyers and his investigation.

All this made it to Project Censored honor roll.

[Gregorian]

7. I forgot all about the Conyers hearings. Ugh.

Fools investigating crooks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. I remember translating that article

The irony though...it was an exposé in a right of center Mexico City paper after those elections were not precisely without a few dark clouds.

I prefaced that with...best to see the straw in somebody else's eye than the log in yours.

[sinkingfeeling]

4. I think it was more Rove and Blackwell.

[malaise]

17. And Michael Connell whose plane crashed

in a most suspicions manner

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/12/22/republican_it_specialist_dies_in_plane

[alc]

5. NSA could do it without the president even knowing

If they think they are critical to national security they should do everything they can to expand their power. That would include helping "select" the next president (and congress) if one looks like he'll be more open to expanding their power.

They have the information (metadata at least) on all candidates, donors, family, campaign managers, election supervisors, etc. I don't care what "rules and processes" they have in place. If they have the data they have the capability to misuse it. I think it takes a lot of faith to think they wouldn't use that information to help elect a president who will expand their power over one who may clamp down on them.

[Initech]

8. There's absolutely no question 2004 was stolen.

The questions of who, what, and how still remain a mystery. But there's no doubt in my mind it was stolen.

[chimpymustgo]

11. Stolen right before our very EYES. Remember the pic with Rove at this laptop?

We know they owned and programmed the voting machines (remember votes "flipping" from Kerry to Bush?).

We know the machines were highly hackable.

We know Bush's IT guy who was going to testify about it met an unfortunate, untimely ending (small plane crash).
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500690_162-4684431.html

We know they are watching everything going on in those computers.

Perhaps Snowden has done us another favor with his revelations - and more people will be willing to face the truth about that stolen election. (wonder if Snowden has actual info on it?).

[Initech]

13. I remember how confident W looked when they showed the obligatory BFEE photo on election night.

I remember watching the election results and was like "Kerry's ahead, Kerry's ahead, cool it looks like Kerry's gonna win!!!", then Ohio came in and it was just like a big fuck you. Bush should have never been elected in the first place but that second term still reeks of election tampering, and the sad thing is we may never know the true extent of the damage the BFEE did to that second term.

[moondust]

10. Creative Speculation group is calling. n/t

[Bunnahabhain]

12. One Question

Why did the Repubs not "steal" the last two elections? What has fundamentally changed that if they had this capacity in 04 that they lost it in 08?

Next question: why do people give the RW fodder like this to paint them as loonies?

[emsimon33]

14. I was an election volunteer for the Democrats in several states: They did not need to spy

For example, in Florida I witnessed several irregularities:

1. During early voting and during the actual election, people would vote for Kerry and either the voting machine did not count their response or it changed the response to Bush (I drove people to the polls for early voting as part of GOTV efforts and had several of my passengers noted this problem. When they contacted the poll workers, the poll workers merely moved them to a different machine but kept the machine with irregularities still in operation.) People leaving the polling place on election day also made similar observations to me if they had attempted to vote for Kerry--When they checked the screen at the end of their voting, the machine either registered a no vote for president or a vote for Bush!!!!! Those who neglected to check and just hit enter (done or wherever may never have known that their vote either was not registered for Kerry or went for Bush!!!).

2. In Florida in 2004, anyone could pick up and turn in absentee ballots from those who had requested them. One of my tasks as a volunteer was to contact absentee voters in a largely Black neighborhood in Sarasota. Volunteers had worked with these voters to request the absentee ballots, so we knew that the request had been properly completed and had been submitted. (Side note: Katherine Harris' absentee ballot was disallowed in 2004 because she had completed it incorrectly--that's how crazy the absentee ballot was). In canvassing for absentee ballots, I found that many who had requested them in this large, mostly Black neighborhood had never received their absentee ballots (We got them signed up for transportation for early voting). On the other hand, when I did the same canvassing in an upper income (all white as far as I encountered) neighborhood, everyone I contacted had received their absentee ballots. So, simply not sending out the requested ballots to certain zip codes was another means of voter suppression in a critical state in 2004.

3. I was a volunteer helper outside a largely Republican precinct on election day. The only line the whole day occurred when the polls open and then for only a few minutes. At largely Democratic precincts, the lines were long all day (we assumed to discourage voting).

No, Bush and his team did not need to spy in 2004. They had other methods to change, deter, and suppress the vote.

Side note: In 2006, I was a poll watchers in Virginia Beach, VA. Once the polls closed, my home was one of the central locations for the MoveOn Call for Change as volunteers from diverse liberal groups came to continue calling into states where the polls were still open. At one point, we realized that many of us had been poll watchers in the city that day. Out of (just a number for illustration as I don't remember the exact numbers any more) 56 precincts, we had covered (again an illustrative number) 38. Of those 38, ALL had one machine that was significantly out of line from the other machines at the precinct. I mean way off the charts in favor of the Republican candidates. I co-authored a statistics book and the chances of this happening by chance would be almost impossible! I suspect a similar tactic was available to Republican candidates in 2004.

No, spying is not necessary when voting machines can be hacked and boxes of ballots can be misplaced or lost (Florida in 2000).

[Gregorian]

16. I'm actually thinking of tabulators.

By the way, I am grateful for the work you did. I've been watching this whole mess from the days when the Supreme court made their decision.

But I'm thinking of something other than the passive means by which they managed to get the election either close enough to steal, or steal altogether. I would bet anything that they were looking into the voting tabulators in crucial districts, and manipulating votes.

I don't think we've heard anyone talk about it this way before. I've heard of patches, and tabulators that were counting incorrectly (If I recall), but not some kind of spying to ensure an election win even in the case where the suppression, butterfly ballot errors, lines, and all of the rest failed to give a majority.

I still cannot believe how irresponsible this country is to have allowed this nightmare to continue.

[Atman]

15. Could a bear shit on the pope in the woods?

[lpbk2713]

18. I didn't think a BushCo win was possible then ...

and I still don't think it's possible now.

The '00 and '04 elections both smelled like dead tuna.

[brooklynite]

19. How about, the Democrats won Ohio two years later?