Hell, I might as well say it, I used to work for the NSA

[1-Old-Man]

I have been very reluctant to say this, but I used to work for the NSA. It was back during the war against Viet Nam. It was so long ago that nothing at all that I did would be of any relevance today but I did want you all to know this. Nearly all of the capability that I see people today saying is impossible we had 50 years ago. The only difference is that now its being applied to many many more people, and of course millions of those are our own people. Having seen what the Agency can do against a real enemy (people forget we were losing 200 troops a week back then) I shudder to think what it could do domestically. That's one of the reasons that it pains me to see folks here denigrating people like Snowden and Greenwald. Folks, they are just the messengers, the problem is an Agency that we have allowed to grow to monstrous capability. It is not good enough that the Administration is declassifying this tidbit and that or promising to curtail some of the programs now in use. Nothing short of restrictive laws, a real Court. and reduced funding will make any real difference in that Agency's operations. We have a very rare opportunity taking place right now to look into that Agency's operations. If we fail to act now we, as a nation, will be very very sorry some day - and I honestly fear that day is not far away.

[BellaKos]

1. I know exactly what you mean.

If people still don't have a clue, watch the movie with Gene Hackman and Will Smith, called "Enemy of the State." A movie made in the 1990s that was out-of-date even then. So, watch carefully and use your imagination. After which, one may then have merely the faintest idea of what the intelligence agencies are capable of.
Fast forward to 2001, when the Patriot Act was made law. At that point in time and for the first time ever, the vast capability of US intelligence was allowed by law to be used domestically. Not only was it against the law until then, but also people in the "world" felt it was dishonorable to spy on US citizens on US soil. (That was, after all, the jurisdiction of the FBI which was bound by legal restrictions.)

Anyway ... now, NOW, people are upset? It's too late. But at least Snowden and Manning have ignited a healthy curiosity about the fact that the Fourth Amendment was abolished in October, 2001, and, consequently, everything a person does can be spied on relentlessly.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if "they" can smell a fart from space. As I said, watch the movie and use your imagination.

[1-Old-Man]

10. as I told my wife

My wife knows what I did, in general terms, way back then. In discussing the current state of affairs I told her "if someone told me that today the NSA can read minds I would not have a bit of problem believing it."

I agree with your points except for one, I don't think its too late. When you quit paying people they quit coming to work. The law must be changed, or better yet nullified, but if you want to see a near immediate end of activities cut the funding. Of course that presumes we can actually identify the funding - this gargantuan "Black Budget" being something else that sorely needs addressing.

[BellaKos]

19. Well,

the problem is that most people aren't even aware of that "world," much less its vast capabilities. Remember, the very term, "NSA," was classified until the Clinton administration. And my understanding is that only certain members of Congress are among the very few who are privy to the Black Budget.
So, I just don't see how the general public could ever be stimulated enough to demand a change in an entrenched and secret establishment that operates with remarkable technology at will. And one that is so very profitable for contractors.
I mean, we can't even get the Patriot Act amended to remove the language that abolishes the Fourth Amendment.
Oh, and ... about reading people's minds, I fear they're working on it.

[matthews]

67. Did you somehow miss this? This was just the FIRST try:

July 24, 2013 | By Mark M. Jaycox
In a Close Vote, Congress Shamefully Defeats Amendment That Sought to Curtail NSA Surveillance

The US House of Representatives came within a few votes of passing a novel amendment that attempted to strike out funding for the highly contentious NSA calling records surveillance program. Under this program, the NSA acquires the records of who you called, when you called, and how long you spoke—for all calls made within the United States, including international, long distance, and even local.

The amendment was part of the Defense Appropriations Bill (basically, the budget for the Department of Defense, of which NSA is a part), and was eloquently supported by a bipartisan coalition of Reps. Justin Amash, John Conyers, Jr., Thomas Massie, Mick Mulvaney, and Jared Polis. The push by Rep. Amash was a great step forward and comes in the wake of a combative House Judiciary hearing during which many members voiced opposition to unconstitutional NSA spying.

Unfortunately, Congress was unable to muster the votes to pass this important amendment. The amendment failed, with an extremely close vote of 205 to 217.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/07/close-vote-congress-shamefully-defeats-amash-amendment-which-sought-curtail-nsa

****

People WORLDWIDE are not pleased.

[eridani]

110. James Bamford once said NSA = No Such Agency n/t

[Hydra]

22. They're working on it

Which means they can already do it, they're just pretending to do the research in the open at the moment.

http://gizmodo.com/5843117/scientists-reconstruct-video-clips-from-brain-activity

Not even your dreams are private now...

[reusrename]

152. Holy mudpie mackeral.

This's gonna change things a bit.

[dixiegrrrrl]

25. Perfect example of that handy black budget:

NSA pays £100m in secret funding for GCHQ.

The US government has paid at least £100m to the UK spy agency GCHQ over the last three years to secure access to and influence over Britain's intelligence gathering programmes.

The top secret payments are set out in documents which make clear that the Americans expect a return on the investment, and that GCHQ has to work hard to meet their demands. "GCHQ must pull its weight and be seen to pull its weight," a GCHQ strategy briefing said.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/aug/01/nsa-paid-gchq-spying-edward-snowden

[Delver Rootnose]

115. I agree that budgets must...

...be cut and laws changed but just cutting the budget will not stop the problem. If people quit getting paid by the government SOMEONE will pay them. The skills and abilities just don't go away. They migrate to the private sector where they can be just as devastating with even less control. Look at the problem Xe and other contractors pose.

[Blanks]

126. No.

If the budget is cut, the private sector doesn't just start doing it. It has to be profitable.

The private sector gets its money from the government on matters of national security, they don't take it upon themselves to perform surveillance (or any other service) unless its somehow profitable and if there is no money in their budget, it isn't going to be profitable.

Cutting the budget would be all that is necessary to get the government to stop 'illegal government spying'.

[Angelonthesidelines]

144. HA!

And those fools think my tinfoil hat is a joke!

[liberal_at_heart]

2. "We have let the agency grow to monstrous capability." That is the problem exactly.

They have new technology and we've given them immense power. When you give an agency the amount of power we have given them it makes it very difficult to hold them accountable.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. these days i call it

The real government. Elections just make us feel better

[awoke_in_2003]

18. Yep, voting is just a Potemkin village. nt

[SaveOurDemocracy]

4. Thank you for speaking up. K&R.

[Ms. Toad]

5. Thank you for speaking up. n/t

[dotymed]

6. I agree.

You worked for them during the Viet Nam war.

I imagine that their gadget sophistication and capabilities have grown immensely.

If every American does not feel that all of their rights as free human beings are in jeopardy,
they are very unimaginative (at least).

Thank you for your candid warning.

IMO, the NSA and similar "secret" organizations should be at the very top of everyone's
Terror List.

People, this your life. Do you want to be prisoners in and out of your homes?

[mick063]

7. I appreciate the risk you have taken

Believe me, I know it is a risk.

Walk lightly my friend.

Perhaps, as in a school of fish, there is more safety in numbers.

[AverageMe]

118. I did not work for the NSA

I only worked in Army HQ for Europe at that time. There is still stuff I am afraid to talk about, including a war we came within three hours of entering into against Russia. There is so much the American people have no idea of.

Remember this whole thing started because 16 men were able to board 4 planes with box cutters ? The enemy had box cutters and they affected us more, over a longer period of time, then did all the troops and weapons of Germany, Italy, Japan combined in WWII. The pen IS mightier than the sword, and that is something we seem to have forgotten.

[cantbeserious]

8. Thank You For Sharing - I Worked There As Well - Agree Completely

eom

[wtmusic]

11. I don't see any ex-NSA employees defending the org

which speaks volumes.

[rusty fender]

116. Wanda Sykes!

I kid you not! She revealed her past employment by the NSA on Jay Leno. She totally defended what she did. She maligned Snowden in the process.

[wtmusic]

133. Wow.

Of course Leno is not going to throw her any hardballs, but I wonder if she feels the NSA is above the law.

[rusty fender]

146. I think that she basically denied that the NSA is doing anything illegal

because she said if people think that the NSA is listening to Americans' everyday conversations, then we would be wrong.

At this point in time, we know that she was lying, or worked in a section of NSA that doesn't spy.

[KoKo]

9. Recommend!

[Th1onein]

12. knr

[AtheistCrusader]

13. Thank you for speaking up.

[cali]

15. Thanks so much for relating your informed opinion

[SeattleVet]

16. I was assigned there for 3 years when I was in the Air Force.

Ironically, I left there in 1984.

[oldhippie]

17. I also agree .....

I was with them in the early 80's. Nothing I see or hear about their current capability or actions surprises me at all.

We have let them get out of control due to our fear of terrorists.

[BellaKos]

26. Yes, fear of "Warren Tara."

But there's more. The intelligence establishment, as part of the defense industry, honed its capabilities during the Cold War -- including the art of disinformation.
But when the Bushies made the political decision to scare the public to death about the threat of terrorism, they, in effect, created the impetus for the Patriot Act.
After that, it became legal to spy on US citizens on US soil.
Now, they're building the compound in Utah that is so large that it requires its own power plant. It will be used to house the collection of data that's gathered from the various capabilities and agencies.

After that .... well, I think that'll be it. Done deal.

The question is why. Why use such immense resources on intelligence gathering while bridges are falling down? I could see the criminal minds of the Bushies wanting to spy on and, therefore, control Americans, but I don't understand Obama's motivation.There has to be a reason beyond what we can see on the surface.

But keep in mind, one of the skills honed during the Cold War was the art of disinformation.

[Blanks]

129. They built an entire city out in the middle of nowhere...

To develop the atomic bomb. The government does this kind of thing, but its a huge organization and doesn't turn on a dime.

Hoover dam had a city grow up around it too. The Panama Canal etc.

We are building these things now because we have a republican controlled House of Representatives. They are obsessed with repealing Obamacare (38 times) and refuse to look at infrastructure spending. Defense spending is a sacred cow to them. You want an infrastructure bill send some of these congress members home.

[reusrename]

141. They fear us (the ones who are trying to change things).

I think part of this is an eternal struggle. Oppression that is driven by an unspecific fear of the unwashed masses.

Another part is purely mercenary. They (those fighting to maintain the status quo) must thwart the will of the people in order to maintain their influence.

They don't want anything done about global warming because they would lose out on all that oil they spent the last century stealing from folks. They don't want to arrest and convict war criminals or banksters because they would lose their grip on the levers of power.

We are the real enemy, we are the insurgents that are being targeted, and we are also the ones who are losing the fight.

[Go Vols]

49. White men in black suits

scare me more than terrorist.

[Dont call me Shirley]

70. Thanks to the bushes

[Vanje]

92. The Bushes are out

but its not over.
We can blame the Bushes for for taking us there
But the Obama administration keeps us there.

[Vanje]

93. The Bushes took us there

The Obama administration keeps us there.

[Raksha]

100. Exactly. n/t

[Enthusiast]

117. Do you think this fear of terrorists was cultivated by the government?

Just wondering what your take is.

[RevStPatrick]

20. Thanks for saying that...

In the past, I've done work for Booz-Allen, News Corp, Hill and Knowlton (of “Nurse Nayirah” fame), Raytheon and other members of the evil corporate empire. Small-scale tech stuff, nothing exciting.

At this point, I would rather starve homeless on the streets (and that's a distinct possibility!) than ever step foot in any of those offices ever again. I don't know what we can do to stop the corporate juggernaut from running over all of us, but something must be done. And unfortunately, the cure will be as hurty as the disease. The cure being something along the lines of making sure we never buy anything from Corporatia again, crashing the economy, and stop paying taxes. Not gonna happen. We've become too fat and lazy and comfortable.

Of course, it's all going to be irrelevant soon anyway, once the climate changes and the water wars begin in earnest...

[chervilant]

124. Now, see,

I've been warning friends and family about this for decades! I didn't know what the corporatist criminals were planning (Shock Doctrine helped clarify a LOT), but I knew it would (and WILL) be bad.

Some snarkily asked me what I would "stockpile" for the "bad times." Typically, they would guess gold or some other precious metal or gems. I used to ask them if they could eat such items. I would tell them to get somewhere they can grow their own food, preferably somewhere near clean water (yeah, I know, what clean water?).

Now, I tell them to stockpile water while it's cheap and plentiful. Stockpile heirloom seeds. Learn bio-intensive farming. Teach your children the skills they'll need if (okay, when) the global economy craters. They still call me a "gloom and doomer." We'll see how fast they hie themselves to my little piece of paradise when the caca hits the fan...

[FairWinds]

21. I worked for them too . .

during the Vietnam era.
And I completely agree with your post.
I like your handle - I'm sometimes called "The Old Gringo"
I cannot believe how some people on this board go after Snowden, Manning and the rest.
It's almost as if they are still on the NSA payroll - could it be ?

[MineralMan]

23. So did I, except I worked AT the NSA while in the USAF.

I was a linguist/analyst. Also during the Vietnam War. At the time, the NSA's mission was to analyze intelligence from countries outside of the USA. That's still its stated mission, and the restrictions on it against obtaining intelligence on people in the US are still much the same as they were then. That was, and is, clearly stated.

Some think they no longer follow those restrictions. I can't say. Although I was offered a position working FOR the NSA when my enlistment was up, I decided against it and went in another direction.

Like you, my knowledge of the NSA is old and out-of-date, and I have no access to any more information today than anyone else does. However, reading the restrictions in the released briefing documents, I see they are much the same as they were then. The NSA's stated mission is foreign intelligence, just as it was then. Beyond that, I can't say. The technology has changed dramatically, to be sure. How the NSA is using that technology isn't something that has been fully revealed. We're only seeing the information used by that agency to brief people on what the NSA does, and most of it is not something new at all.

So, old experience may or may not be useful in looking at today's NSA. Neither you nor I have any way of knowing exactly what the NSA is doing today. We're no longer there.

[sabrina 1]

137. We do know what they are up to today, thanks to the several Whistle Blowers who

risked so much to inform us. Snowden being the latest.

[MineralMan]

156. No. You THINK you know what they are doing.

In reality, you have no idea whatever what they are doing. What has been revealed by them only touches the surface. You've seen briefing slides designed for people who aren't part of the NSA: Congress members, Senators, vendors, contractors, and new hires. I remember similar briefing pages from the late 1960s. Later, I understood much more about NSA operations. I don't know what that agency is doing in depth any longer, but the briefing documents are not inclusive of their operations overall.

[Hydra]

24. Elegant and straightforward post

Thank you for sharing your unique perspective on this issue.

[ucrdem]

27. Thank you. Sure it's too big, but that train left the station decades ago.

No, there were no surprises, except perhaps that the BO admin is mindful of the problem and at some point tamed the NSA behemoth which now operates legally, if not transparently, ringed about with safeguards. That's not the impression Greenwald wants to leave us with, but that's the reality of what Snowball disclosed.

We have much more pressing problems right now than NSA snooping, like voting rights and election transparency, not to mention getting a budget passed. Whoever is pulling the strings of this scandal isn't doing it to protect of our civil liberties, you can bet on that. They're doing it to take control of the Senate in 2014 and repeal Obamacare, among other bad reasons.

[reusrename]

33. There is no more pressing problem than a police state.

The denial of fascism is a curious thing to me.

How do you fail to see it as a holistic problem?

The theft of millions of homes from law-abiding citizens by a criminal cabal that flouts the law.

The wholesale rigging of elections and electronic vote flipping.

The courts declaring that bribery and fraud are not crimes but are really First Amendment freedoms.

The mass propaganda that is constantly being inflicted on the public.

Global warming and the total destruction of the environment and the rolling back of clean air and water standards.

Do you really believe that none these things have any connection to the others? Is it possible to be that blind to what is happening? Isn't the surveillance state the ultimate victory for fascism?

I don't want you to be confused over the fascism question. Some on the right say that fascism is when the government takes over the corporations while some on the left claim that it's when the corporations take over the government. The danger is when they really work hand-in-hand through a revolving door system of corruption.

Do you really not think this is a serious problem? Do you not see these things happening?

[JDPriestly]

36. Agree. Thank you.

[ucrdem]

38. There's a connection, but it's not what you think it is.

That's what I'm saying. We don't live in a police state at the moment, that's clear, and if you compare traveling now to traveling in 2008 you'll see exactly what I mean. But one more GOP reign of terra and we'll come a lot closer to it, and the longer this or that fake scandal ginned up by the crooks who committed it to bash the guy who fixed it, the closer we come to a Jebster victory in 2016.

[reusrename]

57. I'm curious what a police state would look like.

Criminals have their grip on all of the levers of power. They are above the law. They act with complete impunity.

Meanwhile law-abiding citizens are being arrested and prosecuted for perfectly legal opposition. OWS was crushed.

Our traditional laws and freedoms are turned on their heads.

[mimi85]

112. Snowden

will soon find out about what a police state is like. How amazingly stupid to end up in Russia, one of the worst countries when it comes to human rights violations. Maybe GG can go visit him and they can down a few shots of Stolichnaya and talk about the good ole days. Fools.

[MattSh]

114. Look over THERE. Look at what RUSSIA is doing!

Frankly, I don't give a flying fuck about what Russia is doing.

[chervilant]

125. OMG!!

I strongly encourage you to read "Beyond Power" (French) and "The American Age" (LaFeber). You might want to consider "Blaming the Victim" (Ryan) to understand the dynamic typically used to identify a group (or country) as "other than" in order to justify vilifying and/or attacking them.

[Vanje]

95. Do you work for the NSA too?

[sikofit3]

120. Excellent

Excellent synopsis. These are the dots that people need to be connecting because like you say they are ALL connected. What Snowden did was really expose something they never ever ever wanted us to know and now they can't get to him to fix a trial and rewrite what has happened. Each individual abuse you listed above doesn't seem that fascist when separated and most people don't even know of any of them since they get their daily brainwashing from Fox news. However, once this surveillance stuff was blown open all of it makes sense as to why they haven't shown any urgency in climate change, water shortages and all of the other stuff. They aren't worried of whats coming and what we will do because its already been planned.

[reusrename]

138. Thank you. I know we are correct but we keep getting shouted down.

We finally have an opportunity to get a glimpse of the Matrix, and everyone is too afraid to take an honest look.

I don't believe there is any way to roll back the technology, IMHO we should give serious consideration to making everything much more open. I would be comfortable if this whole surveillance system were open source and completely in the public domain under a Harvard Licence Agreement.

I trust the public more than I trust the fascists.

[JDPriestly]

41. Voting rihgts and election transparency are meaningless as is a budget

if we have NSA snooping.

All of our rights and the free working of our governments, to say nothing of our own freedom depends on stopping the NSA secret snooping.

The best thing the BO administration can do is to give each individual the right to subpoena records of the NSA records on him or her. That would then permit each of us to decide whether the programs of the NSA are compatible with democracy. I predict that we all will decide that they are not, that they limit speech, that, as I said, they make our votes into shams.

Think of it. We go to the voting booth. Our votes are tracked and counted by computers. What is to prevent the NSA from knowing how, say voter # 2,084 (counting the numbers in order of voting) in her precinct in Los Angeles County voted?

Sound preposterous?

They can say they aren't doing that, but how can we know? They certainly have the electronic capacity to do that if our votes are counted electronically, and who knows whether they have the desire to do that? Clapper lied. There appear to be no repercussions against him for doing that.

I think we have to get rid of the excessive NSA snooping and get transparency about what is going on before we can get concerned about other issues.

This NSA snooping is the first order of business. It has to stop.

Otherwise a lot of people will reduce their use of the internet and telephone.

[ucrdem]

45. How do you think George Deukmejian became governor of CA in 1983?

Do you really think it was the "Bradley effect" of voters lying to the exit pollsters? I don't. The votes as I recall were and probably still are tabulated by IBM at the county level, we were told that mail-in ballots counted after election day tipped the balance, contra every reliable indication including pre-election and exit polls, and that was that.

The point is that NSA had nothing to do with it. Maybe they know how you voted, though I doubt it, but so what? The NSA has nothing to do with domestic elections but domestic elections have EVERYTHING to do with the future of the NSA. And if we keep bashing Obama the Bush family will be taking care of our NSA worries come 2016.

[JDPriestly]

52. Obama will not be running in 2016.

We need a fresh face with old-fashioned American values to lead. I want Elizabeth Warren. I do not want some tired voice that has been long associated with the mistakes of American foreign policy and banks. I want someone who really understands economics and doesn't just repeat cliches and slogans. I want someone who can explain things to all of us because she understands them so well herself. And that person is Elizabeth Warren.

And I don't see Obama helping to get her elected. I see Obama appointing Republicans as often as possible. He is just barely a Democrat.

I was quite excited to work to get Obama re-elected because I fooled myself into thinking he would speak up for the American people once the constraints of having to face re-election were past. He is, at last speaking up on a few economic issues, but when I look at his appointments I see Republicans everywhere -- maybe even more than in his first term.

Appointments speak louder than words. I am very disappointed.

[marions ghost]

78. Yes we need a fresh face & a fresh agenda

Warren would be good. We have to look beyond.

[Vanje]

96. The only thing that gives me any hope at all

is that we'll have a candidate who envisions a government that works for the people , and not the moneyed corporations.

Obama heads a government that works to prtect the powerful against the regular folks.

.....but he talks nice.

[rhett o rick]

140. I am afraid the PTB will run Clinton against Christie. At best you'll get four

more years of the same. Clinton would reappoint all the same players. It's as if the cabal "players" stay the same and only the presidents change. Can you spell figurehead?

[Dont call me Shirley]

71. And remember this program started under a bush

[Vanje]

97. Yes.

and fully embraced by Obama.

[rhett o rick]

142. And the new Admin liked it so well they decided to keep it.

Actually I dont think they had a choice.

[Kolesar]

51. The Freedom of Information Act fixed a lot of such problems with our government

I thought it was pretty profound even when I was a teenager.

[Waiting For Everyman]

55. "Decades ago"? Didn't you say somewhere that you are 25? nt

[Vanje]

94. Unbelievable.

[rhett o rick]

139. Calling Snowden "Snowball" reflects on your credibility. But I guess that train already left the

station.

Your disregard for civil rights is sadly not in line with Democratic principles. Your defense of the Booz-Allen-Carlyle Group-NSA cabal is interesting in the least. Booz-Allen uber alles?

[nashville_brook]

149. most here are capable of dealing with both NSA spying and other issues such as budget

...policing other folks' interests, as if it's a zero-sum game, is an exhausting habit.

[reusrename]

28. I'm glad to have your experience added to the mix.

They stopped the draft lottery the year before I would have been eligible.

I never had to make a decision about dodging or not. I do remember that the use of napalm really had an impact on me and my attitude about that war. It still does, even to this day.

I've worked for defense contractors and held a security clearance and I'll say that the MIC is at least ten years ahead of what is in the public domain. In other words, the public is just learning about technology that was in use ten years ago inside the shadow government.

Because of this, a public discussion can never happen contemporaneously with the implementation of these programs. The time for us to have been talking about this particular issue was ten years ago when the rules were being made, when the secret courts were considering their secret decisions, and when the secret policies were being implemented.

It's almost too late to have this discussion now, because the technology is already in place and is being used to control the conversation.

[BellaKos]

31. I see that there are quite a few here who get the picture. n/t

[marions ghost]

79. It is not too late

--many eyes have been opened.

[Hydra]

163. 20 years ahead

More like. It may as well be hundreds the way technology is evolving- the things we have now vs 20 years ago are astounding. The things we'll have in 5 more would be even more so.

And they have it already. Secrecy is going to wind up killing all of us.

[tridim]

29. 50 years later and you still get briefings as to exactly what the NSA is doing today?

Cool story bro!

Pssst, the phone system was completely different 50 years ago, and the Internet didn't exist at all.

[1-Old-Man]

37. What a peculiarly silly thing to say. Of course not.

if you can not understand the problem then I have to say its people like you who are a big part of it.

[tridim]

43. Why is it silly?

Your past experience, if true, is completely irrelevant.

It's like being an expert at fixing old B&W TV's and claiming therefore you know how to fix the CPU in a flat-screen.

[1-Old-Man]

44. Silly because if you had read the posting with any comprehension you'd have seen ...

that was the first thing I said. But even that experience all that time ago gave me the ability to see just what a potentially destructive force their capabilities can be ... and you silly boy simply do not seem to be able to grasp it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Did you read the OP? Even those of us who have NEVER worked at the NSA

have seen the progression in technical abilities, including things like ECHELLON and the Five Eyes. Echellon, well after the OP left service, has the capacity to flag key words through the use of sophisticated dictionaries. Echellon is no longer at work, it was decommissioned. What replaced it, the programs we are discussing today, such as PRISM. are that far more sophisticated.

If you are incapable of understanding the monster being built... or is this because it is a Dem in charge right now?

All this shit started with Truman, accelerated with Clinton, went into over drive with Bush and continues with the present President, and will continue with future ones unless we stop it, and it is quite bipartisan.

Like a horse, none of us can force you to drink water once we get you to it.

[tridim]

76. EVERYTHING is "far more sophisticated" than it was 50 years ago.

I don't believe anything people say on the Internet without at least two verifiable sources of proof. Why do you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. Because I researched the programs

And they do exist. Gets worst, the editorial I wrote had multiple sources.

We are living in an inverted totalitarian state, go ahead and tell yourself that you are not since a democrat is in charge. It can be turned into something you will recognized in a matter of hours.

[FSogol]

91. "It can be turned into something you will recognized in a matter of hours."

[tridim]

121. I'm asking why you accept the OP's claim as fact.

Actually it's rhetorical, because I already know you believe everything you read on the Internet.

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. Let's examine the claims shall we?

I have been very reluctant to say this, but I used to work for the NSA. It was back during the war against Viet Nam.

No way I can confirm this...but it is quite irrelevant to the rest of them actually

It was so long ago that nothing at all that I did would be of any relevance today but I did want you all to know this. Nearly all of the capability that I see people today saying is impossible we had 50 years ago. The only difference is that now its being applied to many many more people, and of course millions of those are our own people.

The capabilities to do what they are doing existed back then. It is known partly as the mapping agency, which used sophisticated satellites to do what they do, including signals intelligence, which is exactly what the NSA does. We also know that starting with the Echellon program, starting with Clinton, and after Oklahoma city, they were turned inwards. The OP might have done research, like I did...or known this. The claim is true...these assets have been turned inwards. After 911 that just accelerated.

Having seen what the Agency can do against a real enemy (people forget we were losing 200 troops a week back then) I shudder to think what it could do domestically. That's one of the reasons that it pains me to see folks here denigrating people like Snowden and Greenwald

You might want to look up what Senator Church had to say at the end of the Special Committee he ran...might you be reminded that was in the 1970s. .

Folks, they are just the messengers, the problem is an Agency that we have allowed to grow to monstrous capability. It is not good enough that the Administration is declassifying this tidbit and that or promising to curtail some of the programs now in use. Nothing short of restrictive laws, a real Court. and reduced funding will make any real difference in that Agency's operations. We have a very rare opportunity taking place right now to look into that Agency's operations. If we fail to act now we, as a nation, will be very very sorry some day - and I honestly fear that day is not far away.

Again, I will now kindly direct you to the Church Committee, as well as all recent whistleblowers that echo these words, including Bimey, Clark and Drake.

It is not that I have to believe that the OP worked at NSA back in the dark ages when we were running signals intelligence...and listening to actual phone intercepts using satellites and actual, honest to goodness taps into undersea cables, for that read Blind Man's Bluff It is that he s echoing a well trodden history, that I guess you are in utter denial that it has happened, or is happening.

Denial Tridim, is not just a River in Egypt.

[mick063]

101. So what, exactly, is he to prove?

I'm missing your point.

The OP described that he worked for the NSA.

Is it that which requires proof?

Or proof that the NSA had competent capability 50 years ago?

With respect to modern times, there are Senators and Congressmen, privy to briefings, that claim there is much to this NSA power. Enough so that the President must call them in for meetings to persuade them that the NSA has not overstepped boundries. Enough so that legislation is being proposed to change the way FISA is monitored and appointed. Enough that legislation proposed to completely defund data storage came very close to passing in the House. Enough so that the topic has been a relevant talking point on left and right forums for a sustained time.

So what, tell me, needs verification?

[nashville_brook]

81. that awkward moment when your brain says -->> "No one thinks that." and, you're not on a RW site.

there needs to be a word like derp that means so reality-challenged as to be disingenuous. b/c that's not exactly derpy. derp is more earnest.

[reusrename]

134. lerp - like derp, only different

It has to be genuine because it's usually so implausible that it would be counterproductive if it were calculated. It's like denial taken to the umpteenth order.

Snowden should not be in Russia because ---- Stalin!

Lerp.

[nashville_brook]

136. love it -- !

totally using this...i'm sure it will come in handy

[reusrename]

157. Crikey, that was quick!

Lerp.

[nashville_brook]

160. clearly, Lerp's time has come.

[chervilant]

127. O, good grief!

Just took a gander at your profile, which tells me I'm spot on with regards to increasing my IL this morning. (I predict you'll post some puerile snark, and I'm thrilled I won't have to see it.)

[rhett o rick]

143. So let's guess your point! Since the phones have changed the NSA wouldnt spy on us.

Do you ever enter an actual discussion or just try to stir the crap?

[tridim]

155. My point is the OP doesn't know anything more than anyone else about the NSA today.

And that NOBODY should take his word on faith that he is former NSA.

[rhett o rick]

159. I am disappointed that you believe it's necessary to inform us of this.

And I cant get over the fact that you dont seem skeptical of the NSA. And not only that but you disparage those that are skeptical. In my opinion, an open-minded Democrat would be skeptical of most things. And especially things that involve money and power.

You realize, I hope, that if Snowden is correct and these spy programs fall under control of the wrong people, it could mean disaster for the American freedom? Now before you go and explain to me that Snowden still wets the bed, a lot of good people are standing behind him. Are you not concerned that these spy programs might fall into the hands of one of the wack-a-doodle Republican clowns?

[think]

30. K&R. Thank you for speaking out.

[jtuck004]

32. A guy says "Have you heard... " NSA Employee "Yes".

Your warning is chilling, but do you have any suggestions on how to get people to understand that they are afraid of the wrong things? Because it will take the people standing up and demanding their freedom to stop this, and they haven't demanded their freedom in a very long time.

We should be more afraid of what government surveillance does to our society than the benefit of this Stasi-like apparatus and social conditioning that is going on, yet that doesn't seem to be what scares people.

Being involved in animal welfare, this is easy to see. Dogs are more dangerous to kids (and vice versa) than adults, but a kid is far more likely to die from choking on a balloon or some other object, drown in a pool or lake. You and I are more likely to die tripping over something on our bedroom floor or falling in the tub, five times as likely to be killed by lightning. We have better odds of winning on two big lottery tickets on the same day.

Yet we pass laws to restrict the lesser threat and instead of taking precautions expose ourselves and the kids to far more dangerous ones, and get each other killed doing it.

It could be that this has to do with how our brains are built, a very deep-seated fear of slithering and growly things that may have served us in good stead early on, but no longer represents what we should be most concerned about.

This whole surveillance state. We are afraid of the mad bomber, (though we should probably be far more afraid of the mad biologist), but the surveillance and this mindset that "others" must be doing wrong, that you aren't so you have nothing to be afraid of, elected officials encouraging us to spy on each other... what that can turn people into, how it can cause them to turn on each other, and how it undermines what people need to do to build a strong, secure country is far and away a greater threat than any thousand shooters or bombers

Unfortunately I suspect that day you spoke about is coming, because I don't see what would motivate enough people to change their behavior and address the right things for a change.

On the other hand, maybe there will be new jobs installing peep-holes in apartment buildings so we can spy on our neighhbors.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

34. In what way exactly will a passage of "restrictive laws" have any effect. Clapper lied to the Senate

Isn't there a law against that?

Contrary to FISA, which authorizes foreign intelligence gathering, NSA has been using the FISA banner to engage in domestic intelligence gathering.

Contrary to the Constitution, with the Fourth Amendment which is supposed to limit the invasive actions that can be taken in the name of the government, the NSA has been unconstitutionally spying upon all of us.

There is no law that can be passed to stop them. None. Not even a Constitional Amendment will do that.

[wavesofeuphoria]

63. Chilling ... Isn't it?

Maybe a World court could help .... Start with war crimes .... And see where that leads?

[JDPriestly]

35. K&R. Thanks. It isn't about this president or that.

It is about an agency that is out of control.

[ucrdem]

39. It's about this president, make no mistake.

How could you possibly think it isn't?

[Dont call me Shirley]

72. Really!? This started under bush.

They will do whatever they want irregardless of who is president.

[Vanje]

98. Obama

defends them.

He is culpable too.

[rhett o rick]

145. They arent as narrow focused as you. Why dont you just post, "It isnt Obama's fault." nm

[grahamhgreen]

40. Defending the Constitution is all Manning and Snowden are doing. Unlike those that persecute them.

[MotherPetrie]

42. K&R

[Hekate]

46. It's way beyond any particular president at this point, isn't it?

I have wondered for some time now if each new president since Kennedy has been taken to the basement for a cozy chat. "You've got a lovely family, there, Mr. President. Be a shame if anything happened to them. We're here to serve you; now let's tell you how it really works."

I'm probably your age, and I believe you when you say that the NSA has had these capabilities for over 50 years.... The thing that sickens me most is not the behavior of the President (though I have some issues there) but that of the GOP Congress, which seems hell-bent on destroying the government's ability to right itself at all. The President proposes, but Congress disposes.

I agree about this rare opportunity to make changes-- but the GOP just wants to obstruct and destruct.

Thanks for giving us your perspective and experience.

Hekate

[TheJames]

86. Did you notice Pres. Carter's

sudden aging at about 3 months in? I have heard about that basement briefing. Supposedly, the new president was shown a film of the JFK assassination from a different angle. NOT the Zapruder film. And then asked if he understood.
Stories from the '60's.

[steve2470]

47. Thanks for sharing your experience nt

[SheilaT]

48. Here's my question then.

If the capability of the NSA is all that amazing and accurate, how the fuck did 9/11 happen? Or are the MIHOP people absolutely correct?

And after 9/11, when I was still bothering to fly places, I was occasionally surprised that I could still get on board an airplane given how vocal and open I was about my anti-war, anti-Bush sentiments. I was never ever saying anything threatening about the President, but still.

On the other hand, back in 1969 and '70 I was quite convinced that my phone was being tapped because of peculiar noises I'd hear on the line. A couple of friends tended to agree with me. I was not any kind of an activist then -- that came later when I demonstrated against Bush and his war. I've often thought about filing a FOIA request to see what if anything they have on me, but there's actually nothing that I did, so I'm not sure I want to be bothered.

My older brother has for much of his working life needed some kind of security clearance, and back in 1977 when I was planning to go on a tour to the Soviet Union, he pitched a fit, saying I could cost him his clearance. I pointed out that I was merely his sister, and if my travel bothered the government that much, too bad. Well, he didn't loose his job and continued to maintain or get new security clearances over the years. He recently made a comment that indicated he assumed I'd been questioned by the FBI at various times over the years. Nope. Never. Not about him, not about me, not about anyone.

Since I sometimes lament my lack of any kind of personal or dating relationship in my life, I guess the sad truth is that even the FBI isn't interested!

[Ford_Prefect]

64. Sadly the answer is quite obvious. For one reason or another someone wanted it to go forward.

[WillyT]

50. K & R !!!

Thank you.

[Uncle Joe]

53. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, 1-Old-Man.

[sabrina 1]

54. Thank you ....

[Egalitarian Thug]

56. K&R Very few people have any idea just how far this kind of thing goes.

There was a world war begun and waged in the early 20th century that continues today. So far, the fascists have won almost every battle because most don't want to know that the war exists.

[DeSwiss]

58. Dial it back?

Un-know what is known?

Give up all that power?

Add some more laws?

I wish.

- But they know too much already. They'll never give it up. They never have and never will. Willingly......

K&R

[center]

[/center]

[sgtbenobo]

59. One old man to another.

You've just made my week. Your remarks are the most useful dialog I've seen in weeks. Thank you. Really, fucking, thank you.

"transfixus sed non mortuus"


Carry on.

[markpkessinger]

60. A sincere thank you for this post! k&r n/t

[carolinayellowdog]

61. You are legion-- which gives me hope

that Americans won't stand for what seems to be in store for us if the NSA is not controlled by the elected officials and the judiciary. Voices like yours are just what we need at this point in time, and I thank you for speaking out.

[Logical]

65. Read my sig line! n-t

[matthews]

66. Thank you so very much. Coming from one who knows the truth and has actually

done the job, the OBOFC will have a harder time arguing against the truth.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

69. The ethics of "Jurassic Park"....

"Yeah but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."

[SleeplessinSoCal]

73. Until otherwise proven, I'm convinced Greenwald is dangerous.

Seems to me these capabilities will always exist. It's who do you trust to oversee them. I don't trust Greenwald or any "libertarian" with these tools. Their passion, which represents a minority of voters, is so intent on dismantling our government as we've come to know it. My fear is that their passion will win more supporters and undo the democratic institutions of this nation.

Face it, owing to a lack of an enemy state, we are our own worst enemy.

[Vanje]

99. Um.

"these capabilities" are not in the hands of Greenwald.
They are in the hands of the federal government, including the Obama administation, and his corporate partners.

I dont think Greenwald is even planning to run for office.

But its cool your'e so concerned about misuse of government surveillance.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

111. uh no. But Libertarians are.

[Gman]

74. They can't monitor messengers with

notes on paper that dissolves in water or even carrier pigeons.

[Auntie Bush]

83. Would that be toilet paper?

Dissolves easily but tough to write on. I go for carrier pigeons...but they can be shot down.

[Gman]

87. I believe rice paper is preferred.

[Octafish]

75. Frank Church warned us about the implications of using NSA technology on Americans in 1976.

“That capability at any time could be turned around on the American people and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything: telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn’t matter. There would be no place to hide. If this government ever became a tyranny, if a dictator ever took charge in this country, the technological capacity that the intelligence community has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back, because the most careful effort to combine together in resistance to the government, no matter how privately it was done, is within the reach of the government to know. Such is the capability of this technology.

I don’t want to see this country ever go across the bridge. I know the capability that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision, so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return.”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3510598

[alfredo]

107. Roe vs Wade was about privacy, and that is at the

Heart of the opposition. Anti abortion activist are just useful idiots. The right does not believe we have a right to privacy. They don't give a flying fuck about fetuses.

[grasswire]

77. that's exactly what Frank Church said so long ago

If we don't take control of this monster, we will lose any chance at all to live a free people.

[marions ghost]

80. Thank you for these words of wisdom and experience

that corroborate and give weight to the fact that we have created a monster.

I believe we have a chance to subdue this multi-headed entity, and as you say, we need to seize the day.

thanks for an excellent post

[Piedras]

84. In the early 1970's I toured a phone company cable landing and briefly listened to an overseas call.

Last edited Fri Aug 2, 2013, 10:43 PM - Edit history (2)

In the early 70's, as a college student, I toured a phone company's underground cable landing building and very briefly listened in on an overseas call. So, it comes as no surprise to me that it is now all too easy to "listen in" on phone calls and internet communications. Disturbing, yes.

There was very little to see above ground of the mostly hidden cable landing building. Just a parking lot and a small building. As we were getting our orientation talk we were told it was one of the biggest buildings in the county. Up top there were curved air locks that could slice up a person's body if you were unfortunate to enter at the wrong time (maybe just a scare tactic by the phone guys, but it looked believable). I remember at least three underground levels once we were inside. They said it all was built to survive a nearby atomic blast. All the (mechanical) switches were attached to frames that hung from the ceilings in a way to absorb a shock. There were battery banks, generators and other supplies so the people who worked there could continue operating for weeks if cut off from the outside.

Phone company employees given us an hour or so long tour through much of the underground facility. Near the end they introduced us to other workers, hinted to be from the government, who let us listen to a couple of seconds of an overseas call. We saw with our own eyes and ears (government) people monitoring overseas calls. At the time, decades ago, it did not trouble me. It seemed prudent to protect an important communications facility.

More cables to and from overseas have since been added to the cable landing. It's a certainty that much smaller, more efficient, switches would now be used too. So the ability to monitor phone calls and the internet must have increased immensely.

I'm just a civilian remembering that experience from 40+ years ago. It has always stuck with me how easy it was for the government to listen to overseas phone calls.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

85. Bravo to you..and to Snowden and Greenwald informing the world about the NSA. K&R

[Grateful for Hope]

88. Ok?

[Mnemosyne]

89. Thank you, Old-Man. nt

[Kablooie]

90. Well, you sent chills down my back, sir.

I don't know what to do about all this but I'm glad some of it is coming out and reaching the headlines.
I just hope the public's interest isn't squelched before something is done about it, but I don't have a lot of hope.

[Raksha]

102. K & R - thank you for speaking up. n/t

[Amonester]

103. That day has already passed by.

Not just far away.

It's gone.

Finish.

And it's not coming back.

Stop dreaming.

Face reality.

Be happy.

[MrMickeysMom]

104. If we act, we will have to act with civil disobedience...

However, if we don't act, then the push back on Manning, then Snowden is only the early phase of the disintegration of our civil rights.

Scary prospect, is it not? The only ones who CAN act are those who are children of the 60's. We had it better than our parents did, and our children already have it worse than we do.

What is life and family if it's not worth preserving.

[Amonester]

105. As long as Money will keep Ruling politics ^^^

As long as Money will keep Ruling politics, that is.

[alfredo]

106. I worked for the ASA in the sixties. Eritrea.

[bananas]

108. Thanks for starting this thread - you've already inspired some others to speak out too. nt

[DirkGently]

109. An excellent post. n/t

[Enthusiast]

113. Kicked and Recommended.

We are either a nation that celebrates real freedom or one that pretends we have freedom. It can't be both.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

119. I was Army Security Agency.

Just now able to speak about it we had to sign a forty year " Don't Talk About It" document after debriefing. I couldn't even travel to Canada for six years after I was out of the Army. Know where you are coming from!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Security_Agency

This country has been doing this for a very long time. Glad to see someone is trying to wake up the rest of this sleeping populace.

[chimpymustgo]

122. "We have a very rare opportunity taking place right now to look into that Agency's operations."

Thank you for your insights and admonitions. Pray it will help open the eyes, the ears, the minds of the Pro-authoritarian crowd, and urge the rest of us to take viable action.

Do you have any thoughts on how to defeat this monster?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

123. well, considering that he encryption standards that exist today

did not exist 50 years ago that would indicate that you are patently wrong.

Without access to the private key in asymmetric encryption it is incredibly difficult and costly to decrypt ONE conversation let alone billions.

sP

[nashville_brook]

148. so glad the widespread us of encryption is putting the NSA out of business

things could really ugly were that not the case.

[mick063]

150. It is stored data though

Storage = time to work with it.

Storage = technical advancement to eventually crack it.

[reusrename]

153. The NSA already has a backdoor into telecom encryption.

AFAICT, the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act makes it mandatory that carriers produce decryption keys, if they have them.

They are looking to make this backdoor capability a lot more universal.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/05/23/calea_reform_to_build_back_doors_into_online_communications_could_create.html

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/06/the_problems_wi_3.html

[myrna minx]

128. K&R n/t

[heaven05]

130. thank you

you are.

[donco]

131. HAL 9000 has morphed into the NSA of today. nt

[BAPhill]

132. I wouldn't defend Snowdon.

By all accounts the man knowingly committed a crime. He took the job knowing that he was going to reveal secrets. Whether or not you think he helped or hurt the US, he will go to jail if he returns.

[rhett o rick]

147. Of course you wouldnt. You can only see the little picture. Snowden got a parking ticket and must

pay. You dont want to know what the NSA and Booz-Allen and The Carlyle Group are doing. You want so badly to have FAITH in them. You are hoping that they are taking good care of you.

Gen Clapper uber alles.

[BAPhill]

158. It Was Premeditated

He knew the consequences before hand, yet still did it. It's a crime.

[rhett o rick]

161. So was the Boston Tea Party. Thank Dog our founders didnt have such narrow focus.

Plez try to have some perspective here.

[1-Old-Man]

162. Yes, it is a crime. and so is what the NSA is doing. His crime is small, theirs is enormous.

and a lot of people, apparently including you, do not seem to be able to grasp it. All I can say is that either your education or your ability to understand the nature of men is woefully inadequate. You are apparently one of those people who I tend to refer to as sheep. And do you know what eventually happens to sheep, all sheep? They get led to slaughter, and not a damned one of them has a thing in the world to hide.

[reusrename]

151. The crime was committed by the Director of National Security.

Clapper lied to Congress (a crime) Snowden blew the whistle.

It's not any more complicated than that.

Had Clapper told the truth, the whistleblowing would have been unnecessary.

[roamer65]

154. I met someone who interviewed for them.

They were told, "We will know who your friends are and you will stop seeing them if we do not deem them appropriate".

He told them, "Thanks, but no thanks."