Overkill: Armed Agents Raid Wisconsin Animal Shelter; Kill Baby Deer Named Giggles "It was like SWAT

[midnight]

Team

August 1, 2013 |


When an Illinois family brought a baby fawn to a no-kill shelter at the Society of St. Francis on the Kenosha-Illinois border, they figured the fawn's mother had abandoned her, and hoped to save her life.

That hope turned into a nightmare two weeks ago when multiple squad cars and heavily armed police officers arrived at the shelter with a search warrant for the fawn that had been nicknamed Giggles for a noise she made that sounded like laughter. "It was like a SWAT team," shelter employee Ray Schulze told WISN 12 News.

Apparently, the Department of Natural Resources had received anonymous reports of a baby deer living at the shelter. Nine DNR agents and four deputy sheriffs, all armed to the teeth, was the proportionate response. The agents even had aerial photos of the fawn going in and out of the barn, because Wisconsin law forbids the posession of wildlife.

No problem, shelter employees said. Giggles was scheduled to go to the wildlife reserve the very next day.

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/armed-agents-raid-wisconsin-animal-shelter-kill-fawn

[newfie11]

1. Sadistic bastards

A fawn ? Really hope they feel like real men now.
Horrible!!!

[RKP5637]

2. Crap like this is so over the top it's beyond words to describe ... of course, they

treat people similarly, so, in a fucked up world, yet another WTF on a spinning ball of dirt in the fringe of the universe.

[midnight]

7. Why didn't they communicate with these workers and find out that this animal was going to be put in

a safe area instead of coming in ready to shoot?

[RKP5637]

24. To me, they were authoritarians with guns and legalized power coming

in for a power play wanting to shoot up the place. They didn't give a crap about the fawn, it was just live meat to kill for them. I've seen asses like this my entire life.

[PD Turk]

3. WTF!?!?

Good gawd every day I see another story about these roving bands of armed thugs and they just seem to be getting more putrid every time I read about them. Killing a baby deer... FFS!

now, let the parade of the cops' butt lickers commence to try and defend this odious shit.....

[warrant46]

5. Shortly ---they will surface

[Liberal_in_LA]

4. killers

[truebluegreen]

6. They have to do SOMETHING to justify all the quasi-military equipment

and training. Dog Knows it would be bad to leave it sitting on the shelf.

[Poll_Blind]

53. ^ This. nt

PB

[Jenoch]

8. A 'baby fawn'?

This problem would not have happened had the people not 'rescued' that fawn. It is more likely that the fawn did not need rescuing. It does soulnd like the DNR response was over the top.

[LisaLynne]

9. Yes, it was totally the fault of the people who wanted to help.

Right. Got it.

[Jenoch]

12. The fawn was rescued due to the

naievete of the 'rescuers'. The fawn was just fine. These are the same kind of people who rescue baby robins who do not need rescuing.

[magical thyme]

15. and you know this because you were there?

[Jenoch]

18. I know this because I am familiar

with white-tail deer and their life-cycle. I have observed them in the wild. We have 230 acres of forest and pastures in northern Minnesota in which to do so. What is your experience with white-tail deer?

[Rex]

22. Yeah so am I and you don't send in a swat team to kill bambi.

U.S. Fish and Wildlife could have easily taken care of it or a Game Warden. The level of aggression is embarrassing.

[Jenoch]

23. "U.S. Fish and Wildlife" for an 'abandoned' fawn?

The level of ignorance is embarrassing.

[Rex]

32. Why not they do it all the time.

Yes I agree the level of ignorance is embarrassing. So you mean a WHOLE SWAT team, is better then a US Fish and Wildlife person?

I would say the level of ignorance is astounding in this instance, not just embarrassing.

[Jenoch]

33. Are you calling me ignorant?

I have said all along that the response was over the top. What is a U.S. Fish & Wildlife person going to do with the fawn? How many man hours should be spent on a single fawn? I say they should have let it go.

There are over a million white tail deer in Wisconsin. That is considerably over the target population.

[Jenoch]

47. I probably should

not have used that term. However, you are correct, a Wisconsin DNR Conservation Officer certainly could have handled the situation. It would never occur to me to call the feds in for a small time situation such as this. Maybe things are different out west where there are a lot of federal lands. I'm in Minnesota and the WI DNR and the MN DNR have similar operations. If this was about migratory waterfowl, then maybe a call to USFWS would have been appropriate.

I still think the entire situation should have been avoided because the fawn likely did not need to be rescued.

[Rex]

48. Well it won't make you any friends on the internets.

It is very common for both groups to handle such matters as retrieving bambi from a non kill shelter or an animal wildlife refuge. It is one of their jobs along with bringing dead deer to a wildlife refuge to be fed out to the population. They spend far more time retrieving and delivering dead deer than live ones.

They would have done exactly the same thing the cops did, but with far less pomp and I can promise you less money involved. Then the deer would be used as food, no doubt the cops had it cremated.

EDIT - the fawn most likely did NOT need to be rescued. I agree and that happens A LOT. I've never heard of a swat team getting involved. That was just silly of the DNR.

[Jenoch]

49. I have done a lot of

media work with the Minnesota DNR including the enforcement division. I have also spent a long time in the field. I don't know for sure, but since there are no federal lands in the extreme southern part of either Minnesota or Wisconsin, I doubt there is much of a presence of USFW personnel in the area where that fawn was 'rescued'. That is what prompted my stupid comment. I'm sorry I responded in that manner.

[Rex]

51. Same here and you are right

your state might be stretched thin with USFW I am not sure how they break up into numbers for jurisdiction. I live in Texas and there are a zillion Game Wardens in this state, but it might be based on population.

Sorry for getting all grumpy back.

[Mojorabbit]

54. It should have been sent to a wildlife rehabber to be raised for release. nt

[Jenoch]

56. I hink the problem

the WIDNR had was the rehabber was not licensed for deer. I also think they over-reacted. I wish the fawn would have been left alone.

[Mojorabbit]

58. Yes, they really over reacted

I too wish the fawn had been left alone. It's mother was probably just a bit away but once it was taken in they should have sent it to an experienced rehabber and there is no reason the dept could not have just transferred the deer to one after the over the top raid. It may be that that state prevents rehabbers from doing deer. Every state has weird laws on the books. Sad all the way around.

[Crepuscular]

62. No, it should not have been.

Wisconsin is a CWD state (Chronic wasting disease) and it's irresponsible (and illegal) to release captive deer into the wild. It would be even more irresponsible to transport a live captive deer across state lines, which is what one article said was going to happen to this deer. The DNR did the right thing by putting down this deer and making sure that the carcass was properly disposed of.

[Rex]

67. The point is it did not take a tactical squad unit to dispatch the deer.

One person could have easily handled the situation. Once again, they created this PR crap by using overkill. Really the point here. Yes, the deer was going to be killed, but it didn't take a platoon of armed soldiers.

[Crepuscular]

70. it's debateable as to what the appropriate level of response

should have been. I think sending one person to execute a search warrant, corral and deal with a live deer and remove it would be inappropriate. Whether excessive force was used in this case depends somewhat on whether the description that has been published was an accurate one or whether it was hyperbole.

[Rex]

84. Not really, not since usually one person can handle that task.

You pretend that serving the warrant and corralling the deer is something that needs more than one person and that is wrong. Why would a swat team be needed to raid an no-kill animal shelter? You do know that is practically like going to the pound with a police swat team...why? Most don't have 50 cal machine guns towers...no a game warden (ONE) could have easily done the job for probably thousand of tax dollars less then the DNR wasted in this stupid raid.

No, the response was complete overkill and someone will get in trouble for it.

[Crepuscular]

85. One person would be an inappropriate number

to serve a search warrant and corral a living deer, while dealing with 9 shelter employees. As far as using a SWAT team, my guess is that is mostly hyperbole originating from the the shelter manager, who was pissed off that the DNR confiscated the deer that the shelter illegally possessed. All of this could have been easily avoided, had the shelter merely followed the law and not acted in an illegal manner. People seem to dismiss that fact.

[Rex]

86. No wrong, usually it only takes one person.

But you go ahead and defend the DNR, I don't really care. It only takes one person, sorry but that is the truth of the matter. I guess you never deal with Game Wardens or dear. Or no kill shelters for that matter.

[Crepuscular]

90. I deal with CO's and wildlife biologists on a regular basis

and it would be highly, highly irregular for a single CO to serve a search warrant on a facility with multiple employees, where a living deer needs to be confiscated and removed. Now if the CO was checking a dead deer hanging in someones garage for a tag violation, one officer would be standard but that is a totally different scenario. I know of a "raid" where an individual who was later convicted of poaching hundreds of deer and illegally selling the meat took place and a whole team of CO's and sheriff deputies conducted that raid, as was appropriate.

law Enforcement obviously knew this was going to be a hostile situation, as the employees were not forthcoming with where the deer was, it was appropriate to use multiple officers in this kind of scenario.

[Mojorabbit]

72. A wildlife rehabber would have raised the deer, monitored it's health,

and released it with no habituation to humans. Yes it should have been done, really. nt

[Crepuscular]

80. Releasing a deer which

originated from an area where CWD is a known factor would be grossly irresponsible. There is no live test for CWD, it's a progressive degenerative disease that eventually turns the deer's brain matter into the equivalent of swiss cheese. Why on earth would someone even consider releasing a potentially CWD positive Cervid into the wild?

[Mojorabbit]

88. No logic

The deer should have gone back to where it came. Any deer from the area already has the potential. It was already introduced to the area and should have gone back after it was properly raised.

[Crepuscular]

89. No logic

because you are looking at this example on an individual basis while laws are written to cover a blanket scenario. The only time the risk would be mitigated by returning the deer to the wild, is if it was returned to the exact location from where it was "rescued". That's also assuming that it did not come into any fomites while in captivity that could have introduced the disease. In this instance, it would have already been passed from the "rescuers" to the shelter, to the rehabilitator. The chances of it being returned to the original location are slim. (Where exactly did we find it Mildred, was it by the big oak tree or on the other side of the creek?) If it is simply released into the wild in another area outside of it's natal range, then you have effectively taken the chance of introducing the disease to a new area. Now multiply that by hundreds of instances and you will see why there are laws that preclude individuals from "rescuing" "orphaned" fawns and also laws against re-introducing them back into the wild.

[Mojorabbit]

91. I am a wildlife rehabber and know the laws in my area inside and out

I often return raised orphans or (especially)injured animals to the place where they were found. I know why there are laws but all the articles say a couple found the fawn which means it probably could easily have been released to where it was found.
It is the same with gopher turtles here. You cannot release them in any area but where they were found or you run the risk of infecting a whole colony but you can release them where they were found.

[Crepuscular]

92. What state are you licensed in?

There are good reasons for not re-releasing deer that have been held in captivity back into the wild in areas where CWD is endemic, which is the case in this situation. It's unfortunate that the well meaning but uninformed "rescuers" took the deer from the wild in the first place, as it was probably not orphaned at all. There is a good reason that it's against the law to do so. It's equally unfortunate that the Kenosha shelter decided to blatantly break the law and take in a deer that had been illegally transported across state lines and which they were not licensed to possess. They knew it was against the law to do so, yet they did it anyway. What they should have done is simply called the DNR, either in Wisconsin or Illinois and have the couple surrender the deer to a CO in the first place. Instead they decided to knowingly flaunt the law and take matters into their own hands. When it turned out badly, they have only themselves to blame. The ultimate victim of their scofflaw attitude was unfortunately an innocent one in this case, the deer.

[GreenStormCloud]

93. Was the fawn known to have CWD? N/T

[Crepuscular]

94. There is no way to know

The fawn came from an area where CWD is endemic. There is no live test available for CWD the only way to determine whether or not it had it would be through necropsy. Because there is no live test, the policy is to not release any deer which may have been previously exposed to CWD back into the wild. Sucks for the specific deer but it's the right thing to do biologically to protect the resource.

[GreenStormCloud]

96. Why would it be wrong to release into the same area it was found in?

I can understand why the fawn would not be taken into an uncontaminated area. But there should not be any increase in danger by releasing it into the same area.

I am not being argumentative. Until today I never heard of CWD. I googled it and read wiki. I truly don't understand the danger of putting it back where it was found.

[Crepuscular]

100. Because of the possibility

that the deer may have been exposed to CWD while in captivity. Research has documented the transmission of CWD when deer are exposed to areas where infected deer have been held. Prions can be deposited by infected deer on bedding material, soil, walls, fences, etc. and incidental contact with those surfaces by other deer can result in disease transmission. Prions are very, very difficult to get rid of, they can only be rendered ineffective by very high temperatures. They can remain viable in the soil for decades. If the shelter or the rehab facility has previously housed deer taken from a CWD area, then it's very possible that prion contamination has occurred and the disease could be spread to other uninfected deer that are housed in that facility in the future, such as this fawn. So once a deer has been taken into captivity in an area where CWD is prevalent, it should not be released into the wild again, due to the potential of transmitting the disease. For the same reason, a wild deer from a CWD area should never intentionally be introduced into a captive herd, either in a deer farm or in a zoo or research facility. The potential for introducing a contagion makes that a very bad idea.

[magical thyme]

10. if the fawn was abandoned, as believed, she would have starved

but you're right, then the DNR wouldn't have had the chance to kill her for no goddam good reason.

[Jenoch]

13. Does do not 'abandon' their fawns.

[magical thyme]

14. maybe not, but they do sometimes get killed by accident.

We weren't there and don't know what made the people that found the fawn believe she was abandoned. For all we know, they could have found the doe hit by a car.

It is *hardly* the rescuers fault that DNR killed the fawn. More than an overreaction, since she was scheduled to be transported to a licenses wildlife rehab center the next day.

And I disagree with Flvegan. I think shut up idiot would be a perfectly appropriate response.

[Jenoch]

17. If the doe was killed by a car,

that is unfortunate for the fawn.

Can you explain your last paragraph?

[Mojorabbit]

55. No they do not but fawns do become orphans when something happens to the doe.

It happens more often than one would think. On the other hand the center I am affiliated with does get in plenty fawns every year who were "kidnapped" because people saw them alone and do not know that the mother leaves them alone to deflect predators.

[Crepuscular]

59. highly unlikely

that an orphaned fawn would have starved. Does and fawns do not live independently, they live in family groups composed of multiple does and their fawns, often related. When a fawn is orphaned it will continue to stay with the family group that it's a part of. If it's orphaned prior to being weaned, it will likely become coyote bait pretty quickly, long before it has a chance to starve to death. If it's older than 6 weeks or so, it will likely do just fine and continue to live with it's aunt's until it's time to disperse from it's natal range when it gets to be around a year and half old.

As far as the DNR killing the deer for "no goddam reason", they killed the deer for a very good reason. It's illegal to possess wild deer and in a state like Wisconsin, where CWD is a tangible threat, there are laws that preclude rehabilitating captive deer and releasing them into the wild. that is a sound biological policy. Transporting live deer from a known CWD area across state lines, is a major no-no, for good reason. CWD is bad enough without it being introduced artificially into new areas.

[magical thyme]

60. well this deer didn't come from Wisconsin. The shelter is on the border. The deer was brought to the

shelter from just over the border and was going to be returned to her home state which is where the licensed rehabilitation center is located.

[Crepuscular]

66. The deer came from Illinois, correct?

Illinois has CWD in it's wild population, too. It was grossly irresponsible to transport the deer from Illinois to Wisconsin in the first place (Illegal too, I believe). Once the WI DNR becomes aware of an illegally held captive deer, they have no choice, they have to deal with the situation and euthanizing the deer is their only legal alternative.

[magical thyme]

68. Yes. Furthermore, CWD spread outside of Wisconsin long ago.

Cripes, I did my final paper on prion disease when I took Microbiology 4 years ago, and CWD had already spread east as far as NY as I recall, and throughout the midwest.

Killing the fawn did not do a single thing to prevent the spread of CWD

She was to go to a licensed rehab the next day. It's not by accident that they showed up the day the before;they've been harassing that shelter for some time now.

And the phenomenally ignorant warden compared what should have been a simple investigation to a fucking drug raid.

And yes they do have a choice. They did NOT have to kill the fawn on the spot. Some other people , I believe it was in Wisconsin, were just allowed to keep a deer they raised. Those people had the chance to take it to court; something the DNR didn't give this shelter a chance to do.

Well now the shelter is considering suing them, and I hope they do. I know I'll contribute.

[Crepuscular]

69. You might want to study up on CWD.

CWD is not found "throughout"the midwest. It's endemic in portions of Wisconsin and Northern Illinois and there is a very small, localized outbreak in Missouri. It has not been found in wild cervid populations in Ohio, Michigan, Indiana or Iowa. Contrary to what you might think, it is a very big deal to potentially introduce it into areas where it is not currently found and there are restrictions on the movement of both living and dead deer for good reason. The only way that someone would be able to keep a deer that they raised would be to become a licensed deer farmer and I doubt the shelter would be willing to go through the steps that are neccessary to become one. As far as them suing the DNR, good luck. They were illegally in possession of a wild deer, they were breaking the law.

[magical thyme]

71. the shelter provided *temporary* shelter. Of course it wasn't planning to become a licensed deer

farmer. It had arranged to transport the fawn to a licensed center *the next day.*

As to studying up on CWD, you may want to take your own advice.

It was first found in Colorado and Wyoming, where it is endemic, and is now found in 15 states plus two Canadian provinces, according to the CDC. But what the fuck would they know.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/cwd/

[Crepuscular]

79. Don't need to thanks,

I'm very familiar with the geographic incidence of CWD, obviously much more so than you are. The map from the CDC is out of date. There have been limited outbreaks in NY and MN in free ranging deer populations but they have been contained through aggressive eradication and no new positives have been found in the past five years. You claimed that CWD had spread throughout the midwest, that is simply factually incorrect. It's endemic in WI and the Northern part of Illinois. There are very localized outbreaks in Missouri, Maryland and Pennsylvania, in each case contained to a few counties. Hardly spread throughout a large region.

The shelter in Kenosha was in possession of an illegal deer, which had been illegally transported across state lines. You seem to want to ignore that fact.

[magical thyme]

81. the "out of date" CDC map is dated 2012 and makes clear that CDW originated in CO in 1960,

where it is endemic, spread outward from there and has been found in 15 states and 2 Canadian provinces, with the greatest concentration in the 4 corners where it is endemic, not just the 2 states you're harping on.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/cwd/

"...CWD was first identified as a fatal wasting syndrome in captive mule deer in Colorado in the late 1960s and in the wild in 1981. It was recognized as a spongiform encephalopathy in 1978.

By the mid-1990s, CWD had been diagnosed among free-ranging deer and elk in a contiguous area in northeastern Colorado and southeastern Wyoming, where the disease is now endemic. In recent years, CWD has been found in areas outside of this disease-endemic zone, including areas east of the Mississippi River. The geographic range of diseased animals currently includes 15 U.S. states and two Canadian provinces and is likely to continue to grow. Surveillance studies of hunter-harvested animals indicate the overall prevalence of the disease in northeastern Colorado and southeastern Wyoming from 1996 to 1999 was estimated to be approximately 5% in mule deer, 2% in white-tailed deer, and <1% in elk.

Chronic Wasting Disease Among Free-Ranging Cervids by County, United States, August 2012


Colorado
1.Boulder County
2.Douglas County
3.Eagle County
4.El Paso County
5.Grand County
6.Jackson County
7.Jefferson County
8.Larimer County
9.Logan County
10.Mesa County
11.Moffatt County
12.Morgan County
13.Phillips County
14.Pueblo County
15.Rio Blanco County
16.Routt County
17.Sedgwick County
18.Summit County
19.Weld County
20.Yuma County

Illinois
1.Boone County
2.Dekalb County
3.Grundy County
4.Jo Daviess County
5.Kane County
6.LaSalle County
7.McHenry County
8.Ogle County
9.Stephenson County
10.Winnebago County

Kansas
1.Cheyenne County
2.Decatur County
3.Ford County
4.Graham County
5.Logan County
6.Norton County
7.Rawlins County
8.Sheridan County
9.Sherman County
10.Smith County
11.Stafford County
12.Thomas County
13.Trego County
14.Wallace County

Maryland
1.Allegany County

Minnesota
1.Olmsted County

Missouri
1.Macon County

Nebraska
1.Arthur County
2.Banner County
3.Box Butte County
4.Buffalo County
5.Cherry County
6.Cheyenne County
7.Custer County
8.Dawes County
9.Deuel County
10.Garden County
11.Grant County
12.Hall County
13.Hitchcock County
14.Holt County
15.Hooker County
16.Keith County
17.Kimball County
18.Lincoln County
19.Loup County
20.Morrill County
21.Red Willow County
22.Scotts Bluff County
23.Sheridan County
24.Sioux County

New Mexico
1.Dona Ana County
2.Otero County
3.Socorro County

New York
1.Oneida County

North Dakota
1.Grant County
2.Sioux County

South Dakota
1.Custer County
2.Fall River County
3.Lawrence County
4.Pennington County

Texas
1.El Paso County
2.Hudspeth County

Utah
1.Daggett County
2.Grand County
3.San Juan County
4.Sanpete County
5.Uintah County
6.Utah County

Virginia
1.Frederick County

West Virginia
1.Hampshire County
2.Hardy County

Wisconsin
1.Columbia County
2.Dane County
3.Grant County
4.Green County
5.Iowa County
6.Jefferson County
7.Kenosha County
8.Lafayette County
9.Richland County
10.Rock County
11.Sauk County
12.Walworth County
13.Washburn County

Wyoming
1.Albany County
2.Big Horn County
3.Carbon County
4.Converse County
5.Crook County
6.Goshen County
7.Hot Springs County
8.Johnson County
9.Laramie County
10.Lincoln County
11.Natrona County
12.Niobrara County
13.Platte County
14.Sheridan County
15.Washakie County
16.Weston County

Thus by July 19, 2012, we have had 121 counties in 17 states with reported CWD in free-ranging cervids.


You also seem to want to ignore the fact that the shelter in Kenosha could have been allowed to transport the fawn back to the state it came from, to the licensed rehab center. The shelter was not to blame that somebody from IL brought the deer to them. They took care of it while making arrangements to return it.

That certainly did not justify the Warden treating the investigation like a "drug bust."

You also seem to want to ignore the fact that the shelter has been repeatedly harassed, including by officials, ever since they refused to adopt a dog back out to the person who "got rid of it" in the first place.

The Warden's ham-handed, violent treatment of the shelter and the fawn they housed was over-the-top, wasteful of resources, mean-spirited, cruel, spiteful and totally unecessary. Killing the fawn did nothing to prevent the spread of CWD.

Have a nice day. I will not waste any more of my time arguing with somebody who pretends greater knowledge of a disease origination, spread, and endemic presence than the CDC that has been tracking it for nearly 50 years.

[Crepuscular]

82. Yes, outdated

Note that the map and list does not include Pennsylvania, where CWD has been found in wild deer populations in two counties. Feel free to retract your claim that it's found throughout the Midwest, at any time.

You also seem to want to ignore that it was illegal for the shelter to possess the deer in the first place. Illegal, against the law, period. When somebody asks you to break the law, do you agree to do so? When somebody showed up with an illegal deer on the shelters doorstep, their response should have been an automatic refusal to take the deer and a call to the WDNR to alert them that a deer had been illegally imported into Wisconsin from a known CWD positive state. Again, doing so is against the law.

Sorry, I have no sympathy for law breakers, particularly in regards to possessing wildlife illegally.

If the shelter had a prior history of ignoring the law, then maybe there was a valid reason that it had previously been subjected to scrutiny but without a lot more information, we don't know that.

[Rex]

87. Poster just wants to defend the DNR, which is silly

but they obviously never dealt with Game Wardens or no kill shelters or anything to do with the topic really. Sad, but some people just cannot stand it when LE makes a mistake. They go into constant CYA mode. You know the types.

[Jenoch]

104. The Minnesota DNR

has tested thousands of deer for CWD the last several years. They have tested hunter-killed deer and roadkill deer. There has been only a single case where a wild white tail has tested positive for CWD. That was 2010 in extreme SE Minnesota. So far, the deer herd in Minnesota is still CWD free.

[Crepuscular]

108. Yes, I realize that.

The single incidence in MN is likely due to environmental exposure that occurred when a captive elk farm was depopulated due to finding CWD positive animals. After the farm was depopulated, adequate biosecurity measures were not taken and portions of the fence came down, allowing free ranging deer to access the contaminated property. The MN DNR did a good job using an aggressive approach to deal with the outbreak. Small scale outbreaks can probably be eradicated if aggressive measures are taken, as occurred in MN and NY and as Missouri is currently attempting to do. By the time that CWD was discovered in Wisconsin and Illinois, it had likely been in the population for several decades and was endemic in the core areas. Eradication is no longer an option at that point, then the focus shifts to management and containment. Regulations that preclude releasing deer that have been held in captivity back into the wild fall under the latter category and are the responsible biological approach to take.

[Jenoch]

109. Thanks for that information.

I remember reading some time ago that it was illegal to transport elk out of Minnesota game farms. Do you know if that is still the case?

A few years ago, the elk game farm owners attempted to get a law passed legalizing canned hunts of elk on Minnesota game farms. I am glad it did not get anywhere in the Minnesota legislature.

[Crepuscular]

110. I don't know.

I do know that a number of states have laws that ban or strictly limit the importation of live cervids from other states and also allow only boned deer and elk meat to be imported from CWD positive states, in an attempt to limit the introduction of CWD into new areas. Michigan, where I live, does not allow any live cervids to be imported into the state and hunters are limited in what they can bring back from out-of-state hunting trips.

[yellowcanine]

95. Very unlikely the fawn was abandoned. The mother hides the fawn during the day. The fawn is well

camouflaged and instinctively stays still in its hiding place until the mother returns. Well meaning but ignorant people sometimes find the fawn and "rescue" it.

[magical thyme]

98. 1. Irrevelent to the topic and 2. we don't know the details of why somebody thought she was

abandoned. Maybe they hit the doe with a car and didn't want to admit it. Maybe they saw the fawn in the same spot for days in a row and no doe came to get her.

But either way, 1. that is irrevelent to the thread. The no kill shelter didn't find the fawn, she was dropped off with them. By then, it was too late for them to return her to the doe.

[yellowcanine]

99. Your post said, " if the fawn was abandoned, as believed, she would have starved"

My response was directed at that claim because it perpetuates a misunderstanding about deer behavior and about the natural order of things. Most fawns are not in fact abandoned and most people would not know how to tell if in fact a fawn is abandoned. The fact that a fawn might be in the same place for several days is not evidence of that. And how would one know that the doe hit by a car was connected with a particular fawn, unless the fawn happened to be there also, in which case, "abandoned" would be a curious way to describe the fawn. In any case it is best not to "rescue" fawns, regardless of what one thinks may have happened - (1) You are probably wrong and (2) You probably can't help them even if you are correct. Yes, if truly abandoned or orphaned, the fawn will likely die and coyotes or other predators or scavengers will get a meal and their offspring will not starve. That is the natural order of things. Well meaning humans should not interfere in that. We have already interfered too much. That is why there are too many deer and we kill them with our cars. Anyway, shelters should stick to domestic animals. They are not equipped or trained to handle wild animals. Deer fawns are wild animals. Bambi is a movie. Don't confuse the two.

[magical thyme]

101. Last year we had a fawn hit by a car, who mostly likely was following her mother across the road

My point was if the people had hit the doe and the fawn was following, they would have known her mother was dead. And if they didn't want to admit to hitting a der, then they would have made up a story. We just don't know the circumstances.

And yes, if the fawn is truly abandoned or orphaned, as you admit, she will likely die. That may be the "natural order" of things, but that doesn't mean some people won't adopt the fawn.

You are entitled to your opinion that the fawn should have been left to die. But not everybody shares your opinion, and others are entitled to their opinions as well. In fact, we have a rural living DUer right on this board who raised an orphaned fawn and knows numerous other neighbors who have done the same. That DUer's fawn is grown up now, and living wild, but comes back to visit them from what I understand.

Agree, a dog shelter was not the best place to raise a fawn. Which is why they were transporting her to a licensed rehabilitator the next day, before the DNR decided to waste precious tax-payer resources to show up in full force and terrorize all of them in order to kill the fawn.

[yellowcanine]

103. Yeah DNR was wrong but so were the people who "rescued" the fawn.

Regardless of what their reasons were. And the shelter should not have accepted the fawn. The wrong by DNR does not excuse the wrongs by everyone else in this woeful tale. I grew up in the country also. I know people capture and raise wild animals. That doesn't mean it is a good idea. It is human hubris to think that we are doing the wild animals any favors. Rarely is that true.

[magical thyme]

111. this thread is about the DNR's actions

as to the rest, you are entitled to your opinion. The rest of us are entitled to ours.

[yellowcanine]

112. And my opinion is that the thread is about more than just DNR's actions.

There would have been no action by DNR without the misinformed actions, however well meaning, by people who "rescued" this fawn.
And that their actions were misinformed is not just my opinion, it is consistent with scientific research and regulations in place concerning interactions of people with wild animals in nearly every state, if not all. You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

And I am not the one trying to direct the discussion, so your comments about opinion entitlement are misplaced. Physician heal thyself.

[flvegan]

11. "Shut up, idiot." is almost not the proper response.

Yet it is. This answer is like a bad pilot for a South Park spinoff.

[Jenoch]

21. The only response here that says

'shut up idiot' is yours. What was your point?

[rhett o rick]

19. Wow, do you have any compassion or empathy at all? Dont answer, it's rhetorical.

[Jenoch]

20. What is your experience with wildlife in general and

white-tail deer in a specific sense? If the doe was hit by a car or taken by a predator, these things happen. It is more likely that the fawn was doing just fine and the doe was just a short distance away. The people who think they are 'saving' a fawn are more than likely damning the fawn to death. Even if the fawn is raised to be old enough to be released, the deer will only live a few weeks until a predator or something else happens to it. A fawn needs to be with the doe for at least a year to be able to survive on its own.

[rhett o rick]

30. So in a case like this where people interfered we should let nature take it's course and shoot the

fawn.

[Jenoch]

31. I don't know

if that was necessary. I don't know enough about the area and what other options there may have been. I do know that the situation was created by whomever 'saved' the fawn.

[Mojorabbit]

57. That is not true.

The center I am affiliated with raises groups of them and releases and they are seen for years afterward doing just fine.

[Rex]

61. Many no kill shelters are not really set up to hold deer.

They could have easily sent it to a wildlife rescue center or wildlife rehab center I know the DNR should know that. This is just my personal opinion, but whoever actually planned and executed this raid is in a lot of trouble with their bosses.

This was overkill and they are now caught up in a huge problem that was easily avoidable.

[magical thyme]

74. she was scheduled for transport to a licensed wildlife rehab center the next day, and DNR knew it

They came the day before the transport on purpose, so they'd be able to kill her before she was in a safe place. And I hope they are in a lot of trouble with their bosses. There was no reason for this whatsoever.

[snooper2]

97. So these guys just had a hard on to kill it?

You really believe that?

[Mojorabbit]

75. I totally agree. it should have been sent to a wildlife rehab center.

The raid was way over the top.

Peace, Mojo

[magical thyme]

64. all of which is fucking IRRELEVENT to the fact that the fawn was to be transported to a licensed

rehab center the day after the fucking bastards killed her for no goddam good reason. And if you bothered to research even a little, you'd find evidence that a couple individuals have targeted the no-kill shelter that provided temporary care while arranging for her rehab for several years now, and some officials in Wisconsin appear to be part of that harassment. So it's looking to me like the fawn was killed not because of Wisconsin laws, but in order to increase the harassment of a no-kill dog and cat shelter that one person is angry at because after she dumped her dog, the shelter wouldn't let her adopt it back when she changed their mind.

Those bastards didn't kill the fawn for any reason other than out of spite and hatred for the shelter president.

But just keep up with the strawman. You aren't fooling anybody here with it.

[Mojorabbit]

73. Ah, it makes more sense now. nt

[freshwest]

16. Who called them? The NRA? Why bother? Something very wrong there.

[midnight]

77. I agree... ACLU is doing a national investigation into these over the top uses of Swat responses...

[freshwest]

78. Good, but I want to know who called. It was none of their business.

Although I know in rural areas that don't fund animal control or don't have shelters, when the LEOs are called out, they will shoot the animal.

Not because of blood lust, but their gun is their tool. As in 'to a hammer, everything looks like a nail.' In those cases the person calling simply wanted whatever animal gone, and permanently.

I suspect a local called them in to interfere with the rescue group. Some don't want them to exist. It's a hard thing to consider, but there are people like that.

Sounds like something more is going on here. Yes, there are people who do petty and vicious things to each other, and I'm talking about whoever called.

[DefenseLawyer]

25. Example #25,000,000 of why the militarization of law enforcement is an issue we need to deal with

I feel bad for the deer. It's usually a person.

[leftyladyfrommo]

27. This kind of stuff scares the shit out of me.

I have to wonder why someone couldn't have phoned the shelter and handled the whole thing like it should have been handled.

Who is running that department? The level of stupidity and lack of judgement is absolutely astounding.

And those are the type of people who are running these military like operations? horrifying.

Kind of like the people here in KC who purchased some hydroponic equipment for growing tomatoes and had their door broken down by the police. The police actually stormed their home looking for drugs.

Or they break into the wrong house and just terrorize the people there.

This we really need to be scared of. We need to make a lot of noise. This is SS scary kind of shit.

[TwilightGardener]

28. I am employed by a similar state agency. This kind of sick shit does not surprise me

at all. The people who are drawn to DNR/DOW jobs tend not to be pro-environment and pro-wildlife. They tend to be hunters and have a kill-first attitude to nearly every "problem" animal.

[leftyladyfrommo]

29. Great!

Since this whole fiasco went viral the last couple of days, my guess is that those assholes in Wisconsin are sorry they did this the way they did. I imagine they have had thousands of calls from people everywhere.

I hope it gets even worse for them.

[DirkGently]

34. Dispatching an assault team to deal with a fawn. We have a new definition of "cowardly."

[HereSince1628]

35. My guess is there weren't there for the fawn but rather for what they deemed eco-terrorists

or animal rights extremists.

Sad but this is Wisconsin. Here Fox News seems to rule the thinking of agency employees who are issued guns as part of their jobs.

[DirkGently]

36. The "eco-terror" group "The Society of St. Francis?" That doesn't

help the case regarding "cowardly," even if they actually thought that, which I see no reason to believe.

Did you see something where any such was claimed?

[HereSince1628]

38. I didn't see anything is -this- article, but there have been a handful of stories

posted over the past few years about HSD considering environmental activists potential eco-terrorists.

Once that sort of crap is engrained in the agency mentality...well, it ain't just going away until it fades with retirement attrition

[DirkGently]

41. Well I think that gets to part of the root problem --

putting everyone in the "drug-dealer / terrorist" (both of those terms being subject to question in the first place) bucket to justify replacing a simple knock and "It's the police, please open the door," with flash bangs and assault teams and hog-ties.

It's part of an authoritarian-ization being pushed from certain corners of the culture. Zero tolerance. Zero civility. Everyone is armed, so everyone is a deadly threat, so everyone gets the S.W.A.T. team and the gun to the head, and it becomes ever more dangerous to fail to comply.

I like to think America was kind of built on failure to comply. If harboring a wayward fawn brings on the stormtroopers and an instant execution -- even of an animal -- we might be headed down the wrong path.

[HereSince1628]

43. Keystone XL Activists Labeled Possible Eco-Terrorists in Internal TransCanada Documents

http://www.desmogblog.com/2013/06/14/anti-keystone-xl-activists-labeled-possible-eco-terrorists-internal-transcanada-documents

Thu, 2013-06-13 20:29Steve Horn
Steve Horn's picture
.
Keystone XL Activists Labeled Possible Eco-Terrorists in Internal TransCanada Documents

Documents recently obtained by Bold Nebraska show that TransCanada - owner of the hotly-contested Keystone XL (KXL) tar sands pipeline - has colluded with an FBI/DHS Fusion Center in Nebraska, labeling non-violent activists as possible candidates for "terrorism" charges and other serious criminal charges.

<snip/more>

[DirkGently]

45. Exactly. This is why the blase attitude about the burgeoning "anti-

terrorism" industry is such a problem. It's not about keeping Al Quaida in line. There simply are not enough international "bad guys" to support all of the money and all of the power being accumulated.

This stuff is to keep US in line. Those who would complain. Those who make noise. Those who would see applecarts upset and vested interests disturbed.

Thus the big push for new categories of non-persons. Undocumented immigrants. "enemy combatants." "Occupiers." "Traitors." Categories of people upon whom the very big hammers can be dropped. Drug laws are one way to get there. All the "Patriot Act" nonsense is another. Misuse of the Espionage Act is another.

Because Constitutional constraints and civil rights and open discourse don't always get the right results for the "right" people. Big guns and long prison sentences tend to cut conversation and contentious activity short.

[Harmony Blue]

106. Yes they are cowards

how can anyone defend this...

[Doremus]

37. Can anyone here think of any reason that LE is so anally anti-deer all the time?

I think they are the only ones who think we are stupid enough to buy their "for our own good because deer are diseased" BS.

Police types have a hard-on for deer and I can't figure out why. This example of a Bin Laden kill squad coming for a helpless baby is only too emblematic of a seemingly universal reaction of police to deer. In our town, city councils hire kill squads to "cull" the deer herds, i.e. open hunting season with no limit. (Our rare piebald deers were the first to be "culled," and I imagine the swat team shooters are many hundred dollars richer for it.) When citizenry protested, they were told the deer must be killed to save them from potential death by starvation. Huh?

Why do cops hate them so much?

[damnedifIknow]

40. They don't care for dogs much either

[DirkGently]

42. Beat me to it. What's with all the dog murder?

Too many stories of arthritic labs being shot for "barking aggressively" and the like. Or the kitten massacre a few weeks ago.

Speaks of a coarsening of culture toward the idea of shooting things dead when they get out of hand.

Cops know how people feel about their animals, so they know the impact something like that has.

Smells like intimidation to me.

[rdking647]

39. the wisconsin dnr pulled their facbook page

but hopefully some people will protest to them in person at the wisconsin state fair this week

[magical thyme]

76. I sent the warden an email

using my university account, to boot. Told her exactly what I think of her. I didn't really anything back, except the cussing and that she is too stupid to live, which I thought could be construed as a threat. So I limited myself to writing that she is too stupid to be employed and way too stupid to be armed. Also vile, hateful, mean-spirited, cruel, vicious and a few other appropriate adjectives. And that I hope that she and hers spend an eternity burning in hell.

[99Forever]

44. Fucking pigs...

... make me want to

[Greybnk48]

50. I have always been VERY proud of my Wisconsin roots

and I'm a transplant. We moved here when I was 12. But lately I'm so sad, embarrassed, and often angry at what's going on here. Walker and his gang of assholes have ravaged this place and created a mentality that fits right in with the killing of the fawn.

This too shall pass, like McCarthy, but damn it's awful here. The only bright spots are the beauty of the place and the Packers. I'm sure there are more, but....

[NCarolinawoman]

65. As a person from North Carolina, I'd like to give you a great big hug of understanding.

I grieve for my own beautiful state. Our states have often been compared, you know. Many people not from my area, are not aware of this.

[Greybnk48]

83. We're in the same boat for sure!

Here's a big hug for you too! Solidarity!

[Poll_Blind]

52. This is fucked up and sick. Period. nt

PB

[Release The Hounds]

63. Look no further than the wacko who heads the WDNR.

[valerief]

102. Stupid, meet Crazy. We'd like you to take orders from Mean. nt

[DirkGently]

113. Perfect. n/t

[Eleanors38]

105. Way over-the-top action by WDNR. This could have been

handled better by all concerned. Maybe folks should read "The Yearling," or at least see the movie.

[midnight]

107. If you're in Wisconsin, stop by the Wisconsin state fair and let the DNR know....

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