Edward Snowden Walked Right Into A Bizarre Alliance Between Wikileaks And Russia

[struggle4progress]

Michael Kelley
Aug. 3, 2013, 8:40 AM

... June 23, 2013: Izvestia, a state-owned Russian newspaper, writes that the Kremlin and its intelligence services collaborated with Wikileaks to help Snowden escape from Hong Kong (Wikileaks did not mention any official involvement in Snowden’s departure from Hong Kong in their press statements) ...

On June 23, after the U.S. voided Snowden's passport while he was in Hong Kong, WikiLeaks tweeted that the organization "assisted Mr. Snowden's political asylum in a democratic country, travel papers ans <sic> safe exit from Hong Kong."

That was followed by the update that "Mr. Snowden is currently over Russian airspace accompanied by WikiLeaks legal advisors" ...

Snowden's FSB-linked Moscow lawyer, Anatoly Kucherena, has been speaking for Snowden ever since Snowden accepted all offers for support and asylum on July 12 ...

http://www.businessinsider.com/snowden-assange-wikileaks-and-russia-2013-8

[AgingAmerican]

1. The conspiracy theories keep getting weirder and weirder

Keep em coming!

[struggle4progress]

3. It's Now Clear That Russian Intelligence Speaks For Edward Snowden

Geoffrey Ingersoll Jul. 22, 2013, 2:32 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/russian-intelligence-speaks-for-edward-snowden-2013-7

[AgingAmerican]

4. At what point

Do you start calling them, "the Soviets?"

[struggle4progress]

7. "Soviet" seems to be an old Russian term for "council" -- the first "soviets" in the USSR

were worker-soldier councils of the revolutionary era, and I doubt such political organizations currently exist in Russia: it seems to have an economy largely laissez-faire in organization, with the standard political and social consequences expected from such organization

[dipsydoodle]

8. That's a defunct term.

The USSR no longer exists which helps explain the US having bases in some previous states.

[Mojorabbit]

33. I know! It is cracking me up! LOL nt

[Cha]

2. Well, we know assange won't be leaking any Russian

documents. We do know that, don't we?

[davidn3600]

5. Thing is though....

Russia doesn't pretend to be a completely free country.

It seems the United States government continuously fights against its own constitution reducing civil liberties in the name of "national security" and "public safety." Our government constantly fights in the Supreme Court against our Bill of Rights. We also look hypocritical when we trash China year after year for manipulating its currency and spying on us when we do the exact same thing. We also like to claim that our human rights record is the greatest....but it's not. Meanwhile we are still expected to stand for the national anthem and proclaim America as the land of the free.

Also one very big distinction....Russia is a country that isn't invading anyone. When they were the USSR, they did invade Afghanistan (unsuccessfully) and played a lot of war games. But their foreign policy today is nowhere near as reckless, aggressive, and destructive (and expensive) as the United States of America. Since the Soviet Union collapsed, they've been pretty hands-off with most of the world that isn't within their immediate sphere of influence. China even more so.

If anything...WE are antagonizing them.

[Cha]

9. Yeah, I don't buy that.. "russia good/USA bad" crap

Don't even get me started on their human rights abuses... including Gay Rights.

Now they have libertarian leaker snowden as Putin's Propaganda Puppet.. so, those who love Russia over the USA so much can wallow like pigs in slop over in all propaganda that comes out of the puppet's mouth.

[davidn3600]

11. Part of it is that you can't hate the entire world at the same time

The biggest reason we are the target is because we are the world's only super power. Most perceive us as the biggest bully on the playground. We go around the world sticking our nose in everyone's business telling them how they should run their governments, their economies, and their societies (usually telling them to run their systems in ways the favor us). And we expect the whole world to bow down to us when Snowden decided to take off with NSA files. As if we expect the world to help us stop our leaker and that American justice has no borders. It's an incredibly arrogant attitude. We have in the past refused to send back criminals and defectors from most those countries.

So in everyone's minds, Snowden offered the perfect opportunity to poke the bully in the eye. And even many American citizens themselves are cheering on guys like Snowden and Manning. And the government has only themselves to blame for that.

[Cha]

13. yeah, I know the types who are cheering on the hypocritical snowden..

the USA isn't perfect but I'll take my country where I live and love over any other place on the Planet.

The US government didn't "expect" anything. snowden broke the law and the Gov is going through channels to get him back and hold him responsible. but, snowden's too much of a scared little mouse for that.

At least Manning faced what he did.. instead of turning into a Puppet for Putin. No one wanted snowden except when Russia saw what the mouse and his laptops contained as a bargaining chip. It remains to be seen how Putin will use it.

Too bad that Iceland cushy hidey hole didn't turn out like he wanted. They voted no. Putin voted yes.

[treestar]

51. if we are such a bully why do we go through channels is

another question.

We could have our evil operatives kidnap Snowjob. We could aid the Chechnyans. We could hire Chechnyans to bomb wherever Snowden is.

The funny thing is we are called bully for going through the normal, slow, bureaucratic, unenforceable international processes.

[grasswire]

58. what the hell are you talking about "go through channels"?

It's time to go read Howard Zinn. Your characterization is extremely and dangerously naive.

[treestar]

59. And your post makes no sense

in response to mine. Maybe it goes somewhere else.

[MrMickeysMom]

63. perhaps it means, treestar...

that before you assume how your own country historically has pushed through policy on behalf of it's people, you should perhaps READ more than the 7th grade American History books, or "the leaden prose of academic history". Zinn's very long and thoroughly documented history of the United States includes referenced facts from labor leaders, war resisters and fugitive slaves. Then he gets to more recent chapters in American history. The reader quickly gets the idea of a model throughout American History that is not pretty, but it's accurate.

Have you read it, or are you just going to insist that no one here makes sense with what YOU say?

[Cha]

75. Because we're after perfect precious head, hacker leaker

eddie snowden/Putin's Propaganda Puppet(turns out).

That's a big no no to hypocrites on the internet.

[treestar]

50. and the free world expects us to help defend it

And do we really tell anyone else how to live or stick our noses in their business? I don't see for instance, Pakistan having to give up on their Muslim theocracy, or Saudi Arabia.

Even our attacks have been supposedly about the terrorism aimed at us.

If we refuse to send back criminals to places where they might not have a bill of rights at all? What is wrong with that? We cheered on the idea that Snowden should not be return for the death penalty possibility, no?

[Bolo Boffin]

18. Thing is though...

If Pussy Riot had done their act in the National Cathedral, they'd have gotten a ticket and a fine.

I don't give one good goddamned FUCK that Russia "doesn't pretend to be a completely free country." Neither does the United States for that matter. A "completely free country" is a libertarian's wet dream and has never existed ever in the history of the world. It's an oxymoron. There's a fricking social contract in this country and every country that has ever existed.

Want to say the United States government isn't living up to the contract? Fine. But don't be waving Russia and China around like they are some paragon of any kind of moral and good behavior next to the United States. Fuck that noise with Ted Cruz' shriveled, pathetic soul.

If "WE are antagonizing them," they damn well deserve it.

[davidn3600]

28. Look, we're getting off track here...

There is somewhat of a misunderstanding here. And we're off base so let me try to explain this in a better way....

Russia has a different culture and society than we do. They have a very different history. Democratic ideals is something they are somewhat leery of and is new for the most part. It's always been an authoritarian-type culture. And the reason is somewhat for defense. They've been invaded or attacked several times in their history. And each time was extremely brutal and costly. When the Nazis invaded, 30+ million Russians died. In America, we've never been attacked in such a fashion. So a lot of Russians feel as though a strong, authoritarian leader will give the perception of a strong and powerful nation that other countries would fear. That is why Putin is so popular and keeps winning elections on a nationalist platform. Ideas of free democracy and free expression are somewhat new and the society doesn't fully understand that stuff yet. The youth is displaying a lot of it right now. But the older generations are still stuck in the authoritarian, cold war mindset. It's becoming somewhat of a clash of generations. Because the youth that is becoming of age are the ones that grew up post-USSR era. And Pussy Riot really highlights that generational clash.

Now you look at America, I think you see somewhat of that same type of clash. We don't have the extreme authoritarianism, but we do still have a generation stuck in the cold war mindset. And especially after the September 11th attacks, we as country went very far in favor giving up freedoms for security. And until VERY recently have the people began to pump the breaks on this.

And notice something about these people attacking our government right now. Occupy Wall Street, Libertarians, the hacker group Anonymous, Edward Snowden, Bradley Manning, etc.. They are young!!! Right now, they hate the far-right authoritarians in the GOP. But they also don't like Obama and Democrats very much right now. Part of the reason Obama won so much of the youth vote in 2008 is he ran on a campaign of change. That he was going to begin dismantling the neo-conservatism, change our foreign policy, and replace the old guard. Instead, he's taken a big authoritarian turn. He bailed out Wall Street and the protected the big banks. We are killing people with drones. The old elite class remains in power. And now he supports a surveillance state. All that has significantly hurt the Democratic party's chances of maintaining a powerful majority and has allowed the GOP to stay alive by tapping into libertarianism.

I mean look at the youth today. They want marijuana legalized. They support gays. They support equality. They support abortion. They don't like the elite class. But they don't trust the government. They don't like the police. And they don't like authority. Videos of police brutality, corruption, or government abuse...they will spread all over the social network. The minute the police mess up or some politician tells a lie, they take the video and spread it every friend they have on facebook, twitter, and YouTube. And this continues to chip away at government trust. And we see it right here on DU! Police use excessive force or kill someone and half the people here will call the police, "pigs."

And the polls back it up. Not many Americans like their government right now.

[randome]

32. Very interesting overview. Thanks.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[bigtree]

35. +100

. . . brilliantly summarized.

I can't agree more.

[BeyondGeography]

45. You've illustrated very well why Russia is the last place Snowden should want to be right now

Even if there is an audience for his anti-snooping message there, he'll be kicked out if he ever says a word about it, publicly or privately. His audience is largely here in the U.S., but he's not allowed to talk to them either.

Why he ever extended the scope of his disclosures beyond domestic surveillance is a mystery to me, as was his admission that he took the BAH job just to steal info. Really, what on earth was to be gained by that in-your-face gesture? That's the kind of stuff whistle blowers never do. I'm going to assume he was misguided rather than self-destructive, but terrible mistakes were made that only increased the price of any legal resolution for him.

This is unfortunate for everyone, at least temporarily, because technology will continue to grow more powerful at exponential rates for at least another decade and government will continue to find it difficult to resist the temptation to make the full use of its capabilities. I say temporarily because everyone needs to get beyond Snowden, which they will, and get down to the business of sorting out just where we will land as a society on the issue of personal privacy and public safety in this country.

[MrMickeysMom]

65. I won't argue with that at all...

I haven't polled scientifically, but I'd be willing to bet it falls like that. We see things less transparently here because you could be anybody on DU and come back again as anybody else.

Once persons are known here and divulge their personal history, you see how the populations are divided. I can see where we are heading today, and I welcome it. The reason is, all those hipsters and children of the 60's in my generation stopped understanding what we might have one time been pushing back against. I'm proud to say that even though I got involved in local government, I never stopped believing what many young persons are social networking about today.

Americans don't like their government right now because it's never been the love story it's been marketed (in our history books) to be!

[CakeGrrl]

76. Thank you for putting "authoritarianism" in proper perspective

It's tiring to see the inflammatory buzzwords thrown around loosely whenever someone disagrees in any form with the pro-Snowden POV.

[aquart]

19. Wow. How pure and moral Russia is.

I have to assume you're not related to any of the mysteriously dead journalists.

It's awesome to realize you ain't kidding.

[treestar]

48. I would research that latter point before being so certain

There is Chechnya.

And their crappy economic situation - if they had the $$$$, they'd be trying to get their empire back. It's not that they don't invade because they are inherently better than we are.

And the idea that they don't pretend to be a free country making them, what, more honest? We are a lot freer. It's silly to lie that our problems are nearly as bad. You could be honest about that.

The government arguing legal cases is not inherently evil. Do you expect it to cave instantly to any claim that a duly passed law is unconstitutional? That's what you base our alleged lack of freedom on. Sounding like it should be a dictatorship of you or an anarchy, since the functions of the rule of law appear so troubling.

[struggle4progress]

6. Dunno. The Russians may think he's smart but naive or they might suspect he's crazy like a fox;

they might wonder if he's trying to push false info to them or planning to try to hack them; they might hope they can get info from him or push false info through him or recruit him as their own hacker

I'd expect the Russian counter-intelligence folk are thinking through the possibilities and imagining what games they could play to sort things out. They might learn a lot pretty quickly about his taste in women and what food he prefers and how he travels the internet

[Cha]

10. thinking it's all about the big bad USA and assange

wouldn't dare cross Russia and leak their docs if given a chance. He's smart enough to know what would happen to him.

Not sure his little hidey hole in the Ecudorian embassey would be safe enough to keep out revenge of the Russians.

[PorridgeGun]

16. Putin will get his pound of flesh, despite pretending he isn't interested.

I think the stalling over asylum and Putin's insistence that the matter was beneath his regal notice was an attempt to send a message that Russia was not particularly anxious to debrief this guy, which is (of course) nonsense.

Snowden was a relatively low level, but intelligence analysts can be quite brilliant at drawing smart deductions and inferences from quotidian information. The old KGB monitored the volume of off-hours pizza deliveries to various US agencies because a big bump in orders was a very reliable "tell" that something was up. The bigger the something, the more pizzas.

The idea that an ex-KGB guy (and a good one at that) like Putin isn't interested in every tidbit and "tell" he can get to strengthen his position doesn't seem credible to me.

[treestar]

49. It would be a real bad day for the Snowden fans

if it does turn out he is a US spy attempting to spy on the Russians and the whole thing is a set up of that kind. It doesn't seem to be but the theory is less loony than the ones where the US is some kind of evil dictatorship while the Russians are free.

[grasswire]

69. there you go again...

".....if it does turn out he is a US spy attempting to spy on the Russians and the whole thing is a set up of that kind. It doesn't seem to be....."

The stuff of tabloids.

[davidpdx]

12. Why should we believe this? It's not RT

[Cha]

14. You made me look up "RT"..

lol

[davidpdx]

25. OMG

You didn't know that? It's the Greenwald/Manning/Snowden cheerleader Obama bashing channel.

[MrMickeysMom]

67. Really? You know this?

You seem to know a lot, so I'm wondering how you know this. So, what sort of cable channel is "Bridges" or "Current" TV?

[Cha]

74. Oh, you mean like a portion

of DU?

[fasttense]

15. Yeah Snowden created a program to spy on All Americans in violation of the US Constitution

and collect All their data just in case they turned out ot be terrorists or possible eco protesters 20 years from now oh wait....

The NSA has all their paid posters out in force.

[aquart]

20. Damn, where do I sign up for that check?

[fasttense]

21. I'm sure you already know.

[aquart]

22. Oh, Sweetie, I'm happy to disagree with you for free.

Just as I'm thrilled thrilled thrilled that Snowden is Putin's toy now. I don't ever want him back here.

[fasttense]

23. Well there is the ONE truth

I am sweet.

Snowden and Assange deserve the Nobel Peace Prize.

[davidpdx]

26. You might want to take a look at this and check youself

This whole who-is-the-paid-shill witch hunt is disruptive nonsense.

It betrays an utter lack of creativity on the part of the people making the accusation. They are so convinced that they are right that they cannot imagine someone else might hold a different point of view in good faith. Either that or they are incapable of advocating for their own point of view on the merits.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1259&pid=2716

[fasttense]

27. Yeah because there is absolutely no evidence

that NSAbots and conservatives are being paid to post.

Check this out:

"There are daily attempts to control and influence content in the interests of the state and corporations: attempts in which money talks."

http://www.alternet.org/story/149197/are_right-wing_libertarian_internet_trolls_getting_paid_to_dumb_down_online_conversations

Just because you deny it does not make it go away.

[Mojorabbit]

34. I think there are people here who have an agenda

to "sell" a point of view
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=132770

I have no idea if they are paid or not

[AverageJoe90]

78. I've seen a lot of people shilling for the 1% on YT myself. n/t

[SidDithers]

17. DU rec...nt

Sid

[Life Long Dem]

24. Snowden has an attorney

Snowden's attorney is getting Snowden out of this by using the law to his advantage.

[99Forever]

29. Hey authoritarians...

... still having shitfits about how you were bested by Mr Snowden?

Cry us another river.

Time to yank your funding, clowns.

[randome]

31. Sounds like you really miss Mr. Snowden now that he's turning Russian.

Closure would be nice, I understand. But I doubt we'll hear much from him again. Learn to live with that certainty.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[UTUSN]

37. So "authoritarians" is back in use?!1 I thought it had shifted to "Milquetoast Dems"!1

To the many assertions that "Mr" SNOWDEN has "bested" anybody, uh, he quit playing anything when he absconded. I have never had any loss or tears over him/GREENWALD. The tears will be his when he makes another one of his revelatory "discoveries" to the effect that he and his data are exponentially diminishing in value by the nanosecond: to him, to Wiki, to any of his foreign havens.

The real fun is the upcoming soap opera: Will the Wiki hot woman take up ballet?!1 Will the original ballerina be allowed to visit?!1 Will such a visit have unintended consequences, such as two hot women fighting over such a strapping specimen, or somebody breaking up --- but who?!1 Will the Pip trade one in for the other?!1 Will one of them trade him in as his worthlessness looms?!1

As for PootyPoot, that paragon of Freedom for political enemies and Gays, he who saw the FoolShrub, he suffers Fools NOT.

As for "funding," funny how my Direct Deposits have never even burped.

The faceslap that never stops giving is how Libertarian Libs can now even choose Russia (or Venezuela, et al.) over fellow Libs.

Authoritarians. Milquetoast Dems. Authoritarians. Funding.

Any other terms of abuse and contempt not included here?

[99Forever]

38. Blah blah blah

Same shit, different day.

There's boots to be licked.

[UTUSN]

41. "Same shit, different day." Yip:

"boots to be licked." "Authoritarians." "Funding."

Always the name-calling and dismissiveness. Way to win converts over!1

[99Forever]

42. Truth hurts...

... eh?

[UTUSN]

43. "Truth" bwah-HAH!1 That prism you see through is really good!1

O.K., enough of this for me for now: You WIN!1 Take the last word -- please!1

[99Forever]

44. Win?

Have the authoritarian/surveillance/police state goons stopped their violation of the 4th Amendment spying on everyday, law-abiding, American citizens going about their PRIVATE lives?

[treestar]

52. Wow, that one I have always considered to be the

right winger's response to being bested in argument.

[grasswire]

64. yours is a very telling comment

"Way to win coverts over"

I don't think that any of us non-authoritarians here is trying to win any converts. We simply support the constitution. It's those who attack the Constitution who are trying desperately to sway public opinion.

(And that's not working.)

[UTUSN]

68. Yours is one of the distinctive DU handles I remember and have agreed with a LOT/totally

over the years. And we will again. It saddens me in your post that you are using the "telling comment" device (a rhetorical attack device) and falling yourself under a jargon label "us non-authoritarians" and thereby attacking some of us fellow Dems/Libs.

This from you is relatively mild compared to the vociferous name-calling from others.

As I say, you and I are on the same side and the real enemy are wingnuts. From the beginning, it's been a matter of personalities for me, SNOWDEN/GREENWALD, their grandstanding, their hyperbole, therefore their motives. No, it's NOT let's-not-talk-about-THEM-let's-talk-about-their-message. More about, there are other ways to do things than the way they have chosen. Besides that all of their "revelations" have been underwhelming.

Peace, brother/sister/SIBLING!1

[grasswire]

70. and peace to you...

This has been an interesting and revealing time for us all at DU. I was surprised to see you on the opposite side of this from me. I hope someone at a higher pay grade is making sociological sense of this rearranging of sentiments and partitions on the left. I suppose some of it is generational or connected to whether or not we ourselves have been part of the government or its associates.

Without any other motive, I simply stand for the Constitution and the chips may fall where they will. I will not protect any Democrat who does not stand for the Constitution. That is the only reason I support Snowden. He sacrificed the rest of his life to expose anti-Constitutional activities by those acting for the government.

That's all. It was unfair of me to slap you.

Be well, friend.

[sigmasix]

72. teabaggers using a thesaurus now!

The right wing libertarians go to the trouble of disguising themselves as concerned progressives when they post this kind of hatred for America. Then you go and point out that they like to use the same talking points and vocabulary.
What's an America-hating teabagger to do?

[BeyondGeography]

39. Libertarian Snowden now answers to dictatorial homophobe Putin

Someone should feel stupid.

[99Forever]

40. Yep.

The Anti-Constitutional bastards at the NSA SHOULD feel stupid. Completely.

[treestar]

53. Not responding to the very good point made above

are you? The truth hurts!

[AgingAmerican]

54. So you support mass public surveillance?

Did you support it under Bush, or is it cuz Snowden is a Libertarian commie?

[CakeGrrl]

77. But the spin is that that's not so bad...at least not as bad as

being in the bad old U.S. of A.

Yeah, right.

The reality/irony/hypocrisy of his situation is generally being ignored, it seems.

[bunnies]

36. whoa.

[Warren Stupidity]

46. Mass domestic surveillance programs.

I'll grant the assertion that the Russians might want to know details of how the NSA is conducting its spy on everyone all the time programs, they would probably like to do the same thing to their people. This of course has nothing at all to do with traditional state vs state espionage, it is more like authoritarian technology envy.

P.S. wikileaks has done several Russian document dumps.

[treestar]

47. Hmmmmm

When Snowden arrived in Moscow with void travel papers, all signs suggest that Russia's domestic intelligence service (i.e. FSB) took control of him.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/snowden-assange-wikileaks-and-russia-2013-8#ixzz2b12Ziu9V

[AgingAmerican]

55. "All signs suggest"

Wow, that's deep!

[treestar]

56. are you going to deny that the Russians would do such a thing?

Not proven by this article, but, quite a credible or good estimate.

[AgingAmerican]

57. "Deny they 'would'"

Wow, that's irrefutable! It's a "good estimate!" - AKA it's made up.

Really solid fallacy you have there! Tu Quoque Fallacy - That they 'would do It'!

[treestar]

60. So you think it's impossible they would do such a thing?

[AgingAmerican]

62. "It's possible they would do it" = made up rhetoric

It's also possible that they are slowly poisoning the earths population with undetectable radioactive cheese, or that Putin is secretly a cannibal. Basically you are admitting the whole thing is just a wild guess.

[grasswire]

66. not the first time I've seen that poster assign motives or make predictions...

....apparently drawn from a vivid imagination or too many spy novels.

[wtmusic]

61. z-z-z

[Comrade Grumpy]

71. Much vivid and wishful imagineering on this thread. Ooh, this rankles.

[Zorra]

73. So what? Whistleblowing and helping whistleblowers is what Wikileaks does.

Portraying this as something bad is one reason why we can't have nice things.