Propaganda

[sheshe2]

If you haven't already read Bob Cesca's post this morning titled I'll stop Writing about Glenn Greenwald's NSA Coverage When He Stops Lying, please do so. I ditto everything he said.

I’ll Stop Writing About Glenn Greenwald’s NSA Coverage When He Stops Lying
By Bob Cesca · August 05,2013 Print Friendly | 1863 Views | Politics

On Sunday’s edition of This Week with George Stephanopoulos, Greenwald’s second This Week appearance in a row, he repeated this exaggeration to guest host Martha Radditz:

“Well I think the concern is that whistleblowers in the United States have become the number one public enemy of the United States government, which is incredibly disturbing. McClatchy has been reporting great things about how the Obama administration equates whistleblowing with treason, with all kinds of programs. [...] Whistleblowers in the United States are put into prison for decades and basically disappeared, as we just saw with Bradley Manning…”

Once again, no, there haven’t been any “whistleblowers” under the Obama administration who’ve been imprisoned for “decades.” They’re not the “number one public enemy,” either, unless you dig way, way, way down the list of U.S. enemies beneath the thousands of people, both foreign and domestic, who are seeking to kill Americans, assassinate the president and overthrow our government. Nor have these “whistleblowers” been “disappeared.” Even if Manning goes to jail for decades, there’s no evidence that he’ll be “disappeared” — a word that’s traditionally reserved for sinister, covert kidnappings in which a suspect is grabbed and hauled off in total secrecy and prevented from alerting anyone to his whereabouts or from petitioning for habeas corpus. Extremist language used by a compulsive exaggerator.

Furthermore, Greenwald continues to conflate legitimate whistleblowers with men who’ve leaked national security secrets, generally either to the press or to foreign governments. Based on the fact that the president signed the Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act in 2012, he’s clearly used his authority as a means of encouraging government workers to come forward through proper channels and expose anyone who’s engaged in waste, fraud or abuse.

http://thedailybanter.com/2013/08/ill-stop-writing-about-glenn-greenwalds-nsa-coverage-when-he-stops-lying/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=ill-stop-writing-about-glenn-greenwalds-nsa-coverage-when-he-stops-lying&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

SNIP

First of all...their argument is weak and needs to be buttressed to be heard. The use of hyperbolic propaganda tells us that the purveyors think the recipients are ignorant and need to be manipulated.

Secondly, this kind of propaganda is always meant to instill fear. People react when they're afraid. The trouble is, most often they are attracted to the wrong solutions. Witness Bush/Cheney in the aftermath of 9/11.

I don't take kindly to manipulation and fear-mongering. But that's the kind of propaganda that Greenwald is engaging. And so I agree with Cesca, as long as he's being given a platform for that nonsense, I'll be responding.

http://immasmartypants.blogspot.com/2013/08/propaganda.html

In conclusion, President Obama wrote about his response to this kind of thing years ago.

FRI SEP 30, 2005 AT 07:38 AM PDT
Tone, Truth, and the Democratic Party
byBarack ObamaFollowforDaily Kos

And I firmly believe that whenever we exaggerate or demonize, or oversimplify or overstate our case, we lose. Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose. A polarized electorate that is turned off of politics, and easily dismisses both parties because of the nasty, dishonest tone of the debate, works perfectly well for those who seek to chip away at the very idea of government because, in the end, a cynical electorate is a selfish electorate.

[Our goal should be to stick to our guns on those core values that make this country great, show a spirit of flexibility and sustained attention that can achieve those goals, and try to create the sort of serious, adult, consensus around our problems that can admit Democrats, Republicans and Independents of good will. This is more than just a matter of "framing," although clarity of language, thought, and heart are required. It's a matter of actually having faith in the American people's ability to hear a real and authentic debate about the issues that matter.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/09/30/153069/-Tone-Truth-and-the-Democratic-Party#

http://immasmartypants.blogspot.com/2013/08/propaganda.html
Read more at the links.

[leveymg]

1. Apt title

[Scuba]

4. +1

[leftstreet]

5. +1

[chervilant]

6. hmm...

(...that may go whizzing by.)

[sheshe2]

10. Really?

see post 9~

[chervilant]

18. I'm impressed!

At least you're paying attention!

[sheshe2]

29. Amazing isn't it!

Women can walk, talk and chew gum at the same time!

Actually, we learned to think for ourselves a very long time ago.

[chervilant]

48. Oh, how cute!

As a matter of fact, trashing our gender was not my intent. You seem so intense about the rightness of your position, I thought it unlikely you'd recognize that challenge.

[sheshe2]

57. Oh I thought it was cute too.

Intensity in ones beliefs do not make me blind to a subtle slur~

Thanks so much for your concern.

Do you have any opinions about the OP that I posted, or just my well being~

[chervilant]

67. Well, since you asked...

I'm as unimpressed with Cesca as I am with Greenwald. I think too many members of this forum are indulging in dismissive, or derisive posts -- or hyperbole, fear-mongering and/or sycophantic defensiveness. I think we're talking at each other more than sharing perspectives.

More importantly, I think the corporate megalomaniacs who've usurped our media, our politics, AND our global economy are thrilled that we keep in-fighting about "hot button issues" ('oh, look, it's a sparkly!'), and losing sight of those things that are imminently threatening our democracy.

Oh, and, while I despise the whole "blame and shame game" we humans seem to love, I particularly despise trying to blame a single human being for the morass du jour.

[sheshe2]

76. Thanks for commenting on the OP at my request.

Because the whole point of an OP is to post your opinions on the issues as stated. Agree or disagree.

Here, it's a personal attack. No comments on what was stated in the OP, only an attack.

IMHO, you did this too. You say that

I think too many members of this forum are indulging in dismissive, or derisive posts

Well you did it too, by saying the comment posted by leveymg would whiz right over my head. That was a derisive and dismissive comment. You meant to ridicule me.

I firmly believe that this should be discussed in a civil manner.

Pretty sad that it cannot be.

[chervilant]

81. You're right, and

I apologize. I didn't intend to be derisive and dismissive. I genuinely thought you'd miss his/her reference to the title of your post. I did find that ironic.

[sheshe2]

87. I thank you for your apology.

You are the only one that has, I appreciate that.

The rest are an attack machine without remorse.

Facts matter. A fair and balanced discussion does too.

[chervilant]

88. Do you see the irony, tho?

Or is it really obscure? I confess, I also love puns and they're just not everyone's cup of tea...

[IrishAyes]

95. If you really think that was a genuine apology,

see #86. He/she/it is only trying to string you along for the opportunity to shoot more arrows.

But then, I suspect you already knew that.

[chervilant]

145. Actually, my remark wasn't directed merely about the author of this OP.

NOR was it meant to be a snark, although I can see how it might be construed as such.

I suspected (and seem to have been correct) that everyone with a horse in this race would miss the irony. Why are Cesca's writings any less likely to be propaganda than Greenwald's? Who really knows? Is all this defensiveness about who's 'right' really getting us anywhere?

I am much more concerned with radical income inequity, global climate change, the steady erosion of our Bill of Rights, the corporate megs who own us lock, stock and barrel -- and Fukushima!

The corporate megs are laughing all the way to the bank, while we argue over penny ante journalists.

[IrishAyes]

148. Is this misdirection, perhaps?

A person who happens to be right about 8 out 10 things can still be misleading with the other 2. You flatter yourself thinking your irony is so brilliant that the rest of us ignoramuses would necessarily miss it. That reeks of hubris and throws at least a sniff of suspicion over everything you say.

Have you not yet learned that insulting people so openly and deliberately NEVER sways them to your argument? Unless perhaps you really do consider EVERYONE so much less intelligent than your glorious self.

That's what it sounds and looks like, faux apologies and explanations aside.

[chervilant]

153. Insulting?

My, your defensiveness has become a mighty thick skin...

Much ado about the mean old DUer who pointed out an irony missed by a group among us too busy being "right" about a mediocre journalist, and everyone enthralled with his perspective...

(Not MY irony, NOT brilliant, merely obscure to those whose attention is focused on being right.)

[IrishAyes]

165. I bow, scrape, and genuflect to your unassailable superiority over all other creatures.

[sheshe2]

151. Yes, it was meant to be snark,

you can lighten your load by saying that it was not. Yet your comment stands.

Who really knows...hmm. Greenwald is dribbling leaks, he is a tease. If he has something , why the hell doesn't he spill it.

You say that you are so very concerned about...

I am much more concerned with radical income inequity, global climate change, the steady erosion of our Bill of Rights, the corporate megs who own us lock, stock and barrel -- and Fukushima!

The corporate megs are laughing all the way to the bank, while we argue over penny ante journalists.

would you please post to me all the OP's that you have posted about these concerns. They trouble you.

There are a lot of people here, some of which you trash, that talk about the issues.

VAWA, Voter rights, equality, Womens rights, health care....and on and on. Where are your posts on those?

[IrishAyes]

97. I trust you didn't fall for that phony apology.

see #86. He/she/it is only trying to string you along for the opportunity to shoot more arrows.

But then, I suspect you already knew that. It's really very good for you to rise above, but I get a powerful taste for ankles sometimes.

[IrishAyes]

100. How about that...

I got a message the post didn't go through and that I needed to redo it from scratch, now they're both here.

[sheshe2]

108. No~

However for all the crap they have thrown my way, yes I have tried to be civil.

Says more about me than it does about them, does it not.

Thanks IrishAyes!

[chervilant]

86. Actually,

I think you did miss the irony. That's not surprising, though, as per our discussion herein above.

[DevonRex]

134. No one missed your callous insults. SheShe is a really nice person.

It's a shame that Democrats are subjected to that sort of snide bullying on Democratic Underground. SheShe certainly doesn't deserve personal attacks for posting. This is a discussion board.

You might actually find life more enjoyable when you decide to leave that attitude behind. Where it belongs.

[chervilant]

142. You misconstrue n/t

[bcbink]

122. caught it

[chervilant]

123. Great!

I'm glad others see the irony.

[Life Long Dem]

124. I like the original title myself

I’ll Stop Writing About Glenn Greenwald’s NSA Coverage When He Stops Lying

But propaganda fits as well.

[Mojorabbit]

136. Yes it does fit.

I am pretty much ignoring anything that that author puts out. All it is is a daily attack on Greenwald or Snowden which facilitates shit stirring. Nothing new nor thoughtful.I don't know why people post it here. It certainly does not facilitate thoughtful discussion of the topic. Ah well.

[chervilant]

141. Too true n/t

[quinnox]

8. +1, as another duer noted in another thread, first post smackdowns are great to witness

[sheshe2]

83. I wish I could find the link to that thread. I have tried.

I read it and did not post on it.

The first poster was ridiculed there for disagreeing with the OP. They were not praised as you are saying of this first poster. Double standard in my book.

Perhaps you could share that link with me. It will prove my point.

[sheshe2]

115. The link~

Waiting.

[Waiting For Everyman]

184. Here ya go.

Although I don't think it'll be proving your point, as you thought.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023368346#post23

[sheshe2]

9. -2!

[burnodo]

17. you're "-2"ing your own thread title?

[sheshe2]

20. No, burnodo.

#1's comment was not a compliment.

[woo me with science]

13. +1

[Link Speed]

27. Bingo!

That was quick.

[SMC22307]

28. Mahalo!~

[99Forever]

77. *burn*

[LittleBlue]

116. Indeed. nt

[Maven]

133. Says it all.

[pa28]

152. The OP provided full disclosure right in the title.

I'm impressed.

[quinnox]

170. Indeed, if only all of the other similar OPs were so forthcoming

There are a few who seem to specialize in that area, and post quite a bit of this stuff on a frequent basis.

[DJ13]

2. *

[tblue]

161. Let's start a band!

The Secret Powers seeking to control us will be glad to know they've got people on this site making their case.

[MADem]

3. +1,000 nt

[sheshe2]

14. Thanks MaDem!

LOL~

Yikes, didn't take long for the Snowden supporters to stop by!

[MADem]

22. It never does, does it?

And odds are, you will hear more about YOU more than you will hear about the topic!

ON EDIT--I just had a look at some of the comments, and boy, I was not wrong!

Most of the posts dismissing your OP are childish personal insults or snark directed against those who aren't convinced that Snowden is the second coming of Christ.

I guess "You're a POOOOOOP!!!!!" is the only thing a small child can think of to holler when they can't refute the substance of the argument made in the article.

This thread is instructional, though; it's not the finest hour for some of our posters, here.

[sheshe2]

36. Hey, MADem~

Nooo you were not wrong at all.

C'est la vie~

[freshwest]

85. +1

[sheshe2]

89. Oh dear lord,

give me strength!

[freshwest]

92. Just remember the truth about yourself:

[sheshe2]

94. Okay~

I needed that!

Thanks freshwest!

[Sheepshank]

130. i find it interesting that the Pro Snowden group

complains about the propoganda on this one thread....yet fail to offer the same critism to hyper pro Snowden posts (outnumbering this type of op by at least 8:1) and at the numerous threads intitatoin by the same person over and over. interesting indeed.

[MADem]

131. One group gets personal, the other doesn't.

It's NOTICEABLE.

It's fine to have arguments about what constitutes propaganda, it's not fine to hurl personal insults like "paid shill" at people who have been here since Skinner turned the lights on as an "argument" for their POV. And funny, many of the loudest "paid shill" drum beaters haven't been here but a few months. Make of that what you will.

[Cha]

154. On threads exposing Greenwald and Snowden for "Propaganda".. it's all about

killing the messenger. On the gillions of threads hyping snowden and greenwald.. "it's don't kill the messengers!!11"

Hypocritical much

[Life Long Dem]

164. +1 n/t

[chervilant]

147. One doesn't have to be

a "Snowden supporter" to recognize that your post is a gauntlet, that your title is ironic, and that you are a wee bit defensive about your opinion.

[IrishAyes]

149. You seem to level that same charge at anyone with a different viewpoint from yours.

Past time you took a long hard look in the mirror, pal.

BTW, you're not fooling anyone.

[chervilant]

157. I suppose there are gauntlets

about Greenwald, too. Does anyone else here find this relentless imbroglio a bit tiresome?

So much more comfortable to pat the like-minded on their backs, and ignore the witty repartee of someone who disagrees...

[IrishAyes]

166. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

He/she thinks him/herself witty!

[chervilant]

176. The witty repartee

to which I alluded was written by someone else, not moi.

[IrishAyes]

177. You keep talking down to us

That's the funniest thing of all. Don't you think we haven't developed tough hides by now? Our little feelin's aren't hurt because being talked down to by someone whose delusion of grandeur knows no bounds, well... it just doesn't matter. Do you think that's the only way people will listen to you? You're going about it bass ackwards.

[chervilant]

178. You cannot abide

being wrong, can you?

[IrishAyes]

179. Wouldn't know. It's never happened. Probably never will.

At least not going up against you.

[chervilant]

180. Shhh!! Listen!

Hear the susurration of moving liquid? That's me, wading through the depths of your intellect.

O, look! The tops of my toes are bone dry...

[quinnox]

7. the anti-Snowden/Greenwald forces are certainly good at it

no question, it is one story after another. If one doesn't stick, throw out a different one.

[DJ13]

12. The Turd Whey has lots of practice

[bahrbearian]

19. Good One

[Zorra]

90. And they have lots of money behind them. nt

[backscatter712]

23. It's full-time work maintaining the stream of bullshit. n/t

[quinnox]

25. yep, they churn them out on an hourly basis it seems sometimes

and our compliant media laps it up.

[Life Long Dem]

121. Greenwald is going for a New York Times best seller.

And some here will be happy to support his scam.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

73. The pro-Greenwald/Snowden bots

are certainly good at dredging up old information and passing it off as new and breaking an zOMG MY HAIR IS ON FIRE!!!

[Life Long Dem]

143. You can't throw out Greenwald lies.

Which is what the author is all about.

[OnyxCollie]

11. Derp.

No minimum IQ requirement for entry into the Big Tent.

[sheshe2]

16. apparently~

[OnyxCollie]

21. Yes, the OP is proof.

'Cause if you're not getting paid to post that, well...

[sheshe2]

30. I'm another paid poster!?

So unless one sings the Hallelujah Chorus for Ed we are paid posters~

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!

[OnyxCollie]

43. There is an alternative

to those who are paid to post anti-Snowden drivel, but if I have to explain it to you it belabors the point.

[IrishAyes]

68. Sometimes when you supposedly have to explain something to another person

It's because of murky communication, not reception. GIGO. Garbage in, garbage out. If all you feed on is garbage, that's all you're likely to regurgitate. Your 'arguments' are weak to nonexistent, and your bark scares no one.

[IrishAyes]

74. Snottiness does not become you.

SIT! STAY! NO BARK!

H E E E E E L !!!!

[IrishAyes]

80. Oh, woe is me! I'm put on Ignore by the canine! Boo hoo.

Isn't it amazing what bullying behavior arises from allegedly anti-authoritarian sources? They hate it when they're not obeyed.

[sheshe2]

98. +1!

Hi IrishAyes!

[Cha]

162. LOL, IA.. by Jove you've got it!

The "authoritarian" squawkers are the biggest Authoritarians on the net.

[Bobbie Jo]

127. That one

Only seems to have one gear.

The greenwald worshipers in this thread continue to show their ass. Tired of the view, frankly.

[sheshe2]

93. You are right there are Obama pictures at the BOG!

Try reading some of the articles there too.

That may require some comprehension. There are facts about Obamacare , Immigration etc.

A lot of facts. Facts!

We are called Obamabots. I know, another poster told me the followers of Snowden and Greenwald are called Patriots. Amazing!

[OnyxCollie]

109. Please cite a fact

that clearly demonstrates that what the NSA is doing in mass surveillance is constitutional.

While you're at it, try to find the authority in the Constitution that allows the executive branch to assassinate US citizens based on suspicion of terrorism and w/out a trial, a la Anwar Al-Awlaki (or his sixteen year-old son.)

Facts! A lot of facts, please.

[sheshe2]

114. You first~ And please do not quote Greenwald.

I have to work early tomorrow. I need to sleep.

And no posting my tripe here does not pay the bills. I do it free of charge.

It's my pleasure, not my job.

[treestar]

138. Why do you use the son rather than the father?

The president's war powers certainly allow him to be commander in chief of the military abroad.

It has been explained on DU over and over and over and over that the NSA's actions are allowed under the Constitution.

[sheshe2]

101. You are correct, there is...

That would be you.

[Cha]

160. Skinner's Post on those who accuse others of "getting paid"..

Skinner (57,862 posts)

1. This whole who-is-the-paid-shill witch hunt is disruptive nonsense.

It betrays an utter lack of creativity on the part of the people making the accusation. They are so convinced that they are right that they cannot imagine someone else might hold a different point of view in good faith. Either that or they are incapable of advocating for their own point of view on the merits.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1259&pid=2716

you have no "merits".

[Egalitarian Thug]

111. Nope, nor any ethical or moral stance either, just check the box and you're in.

And thanks for saving me the trouble of wading through the right-wing bullshit to find what this is all about.

[99th_Monkey]

15. If 130 years in prison is not being "disappeared"

I don't know what is.

Manning has already served 3 years, much of it in isolation, under
conditions described widely as "torture".

[MADem]

24. Are you the judge? Did you halt the "sentencing phase?" Have you announced his sentence?

Or are you making stuff up for dramatic purposes?

[Link Speed]

26. I wonder what Sybil Edmonds was faced with

She is still out and about, but she will not breathe a word of what she knows.

These people who are so seized up by Greenwald really puzzle me.

[sheshe2]

31. Actually,

Those that are all seized up about Greenwald and Snowden really puzzle me.

[OnyxCollie]

44. I bet there's a lot that really puzzles you.

[Recursion]

49. OFFS. Edmonds "told all", but it turned out to be nothing

I love that her cult of personality has completely forgotten that she already told the German press what she was gagged in the US from saying and it was completely asinine.

[Link Speed]

53. I missed that (I am too old to pay much attention, anymore)

I wonder why the US gagged her?

But I cannot, out of hand, discount the Greenwald/Snowden releases.

I was involved in Tailwind (Laos 1970) and interviewed by Peter Arnett about it. He was, basically, censored for life because of it. He got a few minor gigs in Bush1 and Bush2, but got fired every time he wrote the hard truth.

[Recursion]

55. Her "revelation" was the content of conversations she translated from Turkish

She was furious that the FBI wasn't doing more about the plots the Turkish contacts were talking about, but the FBI had already figured out that the Turks were bullshitting.

but got fired every time he wrote the hard truth.


Hm. I've got a friend who's been kicked out of every bar in Boston. Eventually I stopped blaming the bars. Maybe it's more of an Olbermann effect?

[LWolf]

32. Please don't "ditto" anything anyone

puts out in the media. It generates an automatic reaction referring to a media head that makes Greenwald look like a saint, and completely negates any points you might have made.

[quinnox]

34. I believe the OP is a hard core BOG-er

hopefully they understand that they will often get negative reactions to threads like this, that in the Bog would be met with universal agreement and praise.

[sheshe2]

41. Oh noooes! Really?

Yikes you found me out.

There is an excellent amount of facts that are posted in GD and the BOG, by us Hard Core BOGers!

So, if you might enlighten me, what are the Hard Core Snowden/Greenwald enthusiasts called?

[quinnox]

46. "There is an excellent amount of facts that are posted in GD and the BOG, by us Hard Core BOGers"

No, there aren't. None that I have seen anyway.

As to "finding you out", I wasn't aware it was some sort of secret. Anyone can go to the Bog and see who posts there. I'm sure you are a proud member of the Bog, so I wouldn't think it would be anything to be ashamed of, from your point of view.

As to what you guys want to call the Snowden/Greenwald enthusiasts, well, "patriots" would do, or perhaps "progressives".

[sheshe2]

52. I am a proud supporter of this President...

and I was being a little facetious when I posted that.... " Oh yikes you found me out".

Yes there are excellent facts that have been posted in the BOG and GD. One must make the time to read them, not dismiss them outright.

Aaaah you are the Patriots! God bless you for saving our souls. We know not what to say or think without you. God bless Paul Revere!

[IrishAyes]

91. Or even .... drum roll .... IJITS?

[LWolf]

42. Yes.

I stopped in there recently. It was kind of creepy, to be honest.

[sheshe2]

60. WOW!

Some of the posts on GD have a similar creepy feel to me.

My reaction~


Edvard Munch's The Scream~

[LWolf]

99. I relate, and I understand.

It's not personal. We have diametrically opposed povs about certain subjects, and while I can understand intellectually, I still have a visceral, negative reaction to what I perceive as self-destructive unconditional support of someone who does things that shouldn't ever be supported.

You might think the same about some povs found in GD. Actually, so do I. They just aren't overwhelming.

I often see myself in the scream when it comes to politics; in GD, at DU, and in the real world.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

33. 1 reporter vs the entire MIC

Bwahahahahahhahhua

[stupidicus]

63. indeed

personally I don't think this type should be discouraged in their efforts, since there's a high likelihood they are gonna find themselves on the wrong side of history on it.

The feud between Boobyboy and GG is not gonna have any impact on that, just the quatity of jollies this crew finds in their efforts to lessen the pain of BHO being part of the problem.

They don't seem to understand that ANY revisions in the current laws, etc, governing such in an effort to rectify the percieved and what will more likely be proven abuses, gives him ownership of them.

SO I say let the poor things crow all they want over meaningless garbage, because that will make their choking on it all later that much more enjoyable.

[JaneyVee]

35. Actually, leakers served an average of 50 months.

[chervilant]

181. IF they survive long enough to

go through the corrupt legal system.

[Whisp]

37. ''Extremist language used by a compulsive exaggerator.''

That about hits that nail right on the head.

[Whisp]

38. +++

There is great fear and loathing against this OP. Maybe the donators are having buyer's regret and are kinda like 'kicking their dog' thing.

[sheshe2]

47. Thanks Whisp!

Buyers regret, love it.

[Electric Monk]

39. This thread is a veritable Rorshach test, as far as who sees what, depending what they already think

[DeadLetterOffice]

51. I find it fascinating...

I see Snowden as neither a hero nor a villain, but as a person who made decisions and choices, some of them that look 'good' from the outside and some that look 'bad.' I see Obama the same way. So the ferociousness with which absolute positions are defended by some posters is, for me, kind of like theater. Somewhat disturbing theater, but still...

[1StrongBlackMan]

84. I don't know if ...

You caught this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023407292

If you haven't ... Check it out. It explains a lot of what is going on here and throughout America.

[freshwest]

102. That's a good piece. Thanks, I would have missed it otherwise.

[1StrongBlackMan]

104. I tell ya ...

It completely explains the state of affairs, here and elsewhere.

And it led me to post this response in a thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3411805

Check out the responses ... For you enjoyment ... or frustratioon, as the case may be.

[freshwest]

112. Yup. I gave up arguing with Baggers, Libertarians, Scientologists, Kochroaches and Termites.

They all serve the same purposes. Gonna do what they're gonna do.

[Cha]

119. Mahalo, 1Strong

[chervilant]

182. The conclusion is relevant here:

Fixing the NSA scandal will involve far more than reforming the NSA. It means changing America's paranoid political culture, which means reviving trust in our leaders, which means finding leaders deserving of trust. It means that people in positions of power - in government and in corporations like Facebook and Google - need to come clean with what they know and why they want to know it. Our privacy settings, literally and figuratively, need to stop shifting. Our privacy expectations need to stop being dictated by those who read our mail.

Until then, paranoia will rule. "Power is impenetrable", wrote Elias Canetti, in his 1960 study of paranoia in politics. "The man who has it sees through other men, but does not allow them to see through him."

Edward Snowden proclaimed he could see through everybody. And then he said he was on our side. That is the novelty of this whole affair. He saw through us and we watched him run.

[Martin Eden]

64. Hooded Klan members coming out of a cave ...

... with large panda bear heads on either side.
Anyway, that's how I see it

[Life Long Dem]

40. +1

So true.

[cantbeserious]

45. Ever More Character Assassination

eom

[snappyturtle]

54. +1

[Life Long Dem]

61. Can you read?

Then read this - from the article.

I’ve endeavored to be fair and well-researched with everything I’ve written, just as I was during my occasional (and sometimes friendly) discussions with Greenwald on Twitter and via email. I’ve deliberately ignored the personal attacks against Greenwald and Snowden that’ve emerged in the press and online, especially the Greenwald-lives-in-Brazil attack, and I’ve written numerous blurbs condemning a hideous article in the New York Daily News that served no purpose other than to brutally smear Greenwald. (By the way, the article, which I won’t link here, also served as a form of intimidation against anyone who would dare to step into the spotlight: do it and your most private, intimate details will be used as a cudgel to crush you.) I’ve made a concerted effort to stick to the facts; to correct any mistakes and to play on-the-level.

[Recursion]

50. Good post. Looks like you hit a nerve

Cesca pretty much sums up how I feel about this, too.

[sheshe2]

58. Thanks Recursion.

Have you noticed that they are not responding to the OP at all? Snort...of course you did.

They are just on the attack. If you kill the messenger, then the message dies. Not!

[Cha]

106. Oh yeah. they can't address "greenwald's

Extremist language used by a compulsive exaggerator." Because that's who they regurgitate.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

56. How many brownie points and doggie treats did Cesca earn from the NSA for this tripe?

Or, has he expectations of being appointed head mouthpiece for the regime?

[stupidicus]

66. just the chief apologist designation

he's been after since the beginning

http://www.frequency.com/video/nothing-to-see-here-folks-obama/101593573/-/5-365111

[sheshe2]

113. How many has Greenwald received for his tripe?

Or, has he expectations of being appointed head mouthpiece for the regime?

[Warren Stupidity]

125. Greenwald has zero chance of any government appointment.

He might get a book deal, but probably not a huge one. He won't get a corporate mouthpiece role on tv newz. Gadflies dont get rich. On the other hand the role of sycophant is well rewarded.

[Cha]

137. Greenwald's got a lot "brownie points and doggie treats" but from

Last edited Tue Aug 6, 2013, 10:36 PM - Edit history (1)

Putin.



http://theobamadiary.com/2013/08/06/rise-and-shine-572/

[sheshe2]

139. ...

[Just Saying]

59. I thought this type of hyperbole and anti-government paranoia

Only existed on the right. DU has proven me very wrong.

Good read, she! Thanks for posting it and I'm glad you put it in GD. We need different point of view here despite repeated attempts to stop it.

[Cha]

120. Yeah,

Just Sayin'

[Jamaal510]

155. +1

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

62. K&R!!!!!!!!!! Bookmarked, too!

[sheshe2]

65. Thanks, Liberal_Stalwart!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

71. Only a few of us, but we're here! :hugs:

[sheshe2]

72. Back at you~

[Cha]

70. Full Disclosure, she..

I'm kinda like in love with Bob Cesca just a little at this point because of his intrepid deconstructing of greenwald's relentless bullshit.

Looking forward to reading this when I return!

Mahalo, she!

[Hekate]

78. KnR, sheshe

[DevonRex]

79. Thanks, She. I like him.

Sure is nice to see a Democratic point of view around here. We're getting buried under Russia Times bullshit lately.

[sheshe2]

103. Thanks Devon~

I do believe they are trying to bury me here too.

[DevonRex]

117. Yes they are. Mostly from one

group. It's something I just realized myself lately.

[Gus Lammas]

82. Oops. Sorry.

When I read "Propaganda," I thought you were talking about Shark Week on Discovery.

K&R

[Cha]

96. greenwald is a piss poor liar.. so easy to spot unless of course

ya don't care wtf he says as long as he's lyin' about Obama.

Furthermore, Greenwald continues to conflate legitimate whistleblowers with men who’ve leaked national security secrets, generally either to the press or to foreign governments. Based on the fact that the president signed the Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act in 2012, he’s clearly used his authority as a means of encouraging government workers to come forward through proper channels and expose anyone who’s engaged in waste, fraud or abuse.

Extremist language used by a compulsive exaggerator.

I call "exaggerating" lying.

Mahalo, she

[sheshe2]

105. Bingo!

Thanks Cha~

Notice they don't post about the OP....they attack me personally.

I would like to say that's amazing, but it's not.

Oh and BOG is bad~ The bots are out...and it's not the Obamabots.

[Cha]

107. BOG BOG BOG

she

[sheshe2]

110. Pictures~

[url=http://postimage.org/][img][/img][/url]

[url=http://postimage.org/][img][/img][/url]

[url=http://postimg.org/image/5ibekkvzh/][img][/img][/url]







Thanks Cha~

[Cha]

118. Perfect reaction, sheshe!

she~

[IrishAyes]

132. Ahh.... a sight for sore eyes indeed, both of them.

[sheshe2]

135. ...

[Warren Stupidity]

126. "You ditto" ? But do you "mega ditto"?

[chervilant]

183. hmm...

I thought dittoheads were Limbaugh sycophants. Has that changed? Am I missing something?

[Warren Stupidity]

185. An extremely odd word choice.

[chervilant]

186. Perhaps,

you never saw the bumper stickers that read "Ditto!" Or, conversed with a Limbaugh supporter who used terms like "mega ditto."

[Warren Stupidity]

187. no that is exactly what I meant.

"ditto" and "mega ditto" are rightwing cant. Right up there with "democrat party".

[chervilant]

188. I guess that's why I'm confused...

seeing it on Du.

[SidDithers]

128. DU rec...

Sid

[Scurrilous]

129. K & R

[treestar]

140. Some great comments there

thank you !

[stevenleser]

144. K&R some see through the Greenwald and Assange B.S. some don't nt

[Life Long Dem]

156. +1 n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

150. After Cesca's attacks on Lt Dan Choi I simply won't read him and those who

cite him have, in my view, cited a dishonest person. Most dishonest writer I have ever read in my life.

[stevenleser]

173. If we are going to discard someone for one big mistake, then Greenwald is out for supporting Bush nt

[kentuck]

158. "Propaganda, all is phony.."

While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society’s pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he’s in

But I mean no harm nor put fault
On anyone that lives in a vault
But it’s alright, Ma, if I can’t please him

Old lady judges watch people in pairs
Limited in sex, they dare
To push fake morals, insult and stare
While money doesn’t talk, it swears
Obscenity, who really cares
Propaganda, all is phony

Read more: http://www.bobdylan.com/us/songs/its-alright-ma-im-only-bleeding#ixzz2bFSMqcEp

[Zorra]

159. Propaganda

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

--Nazi propaganda chief Joseph Goebbels

[stevenleser]

163. Sounds like the stuff Greenwald and Assange are trying to sell nt

[Bluenorthwest]

168. Your endorsement of Cesca is noted and it is not surprising.

nt

[stevenleser]

169. Your attempt to demagogue my agreement with Cesca on this is noted and it is not surprising. nt

[Zorra]

171. Perfect example of spin propaganda.

Your post indicates that you believe Greenwald and Assange are propagandists who support an authoritarian state.

Or maybe you simply misunderstood the Goebbels quote.

But based on posting history, it appears that you are trying to spin the meaning of the quote for propaganda purposes.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

If you really believe that Greenwald and Assange are using propaganda to promote the interests of an authoritarian state, I would say that you have a very unique perspective on reality.

[stevenleser]

172. I think they are telling lies over and over again, and even making them bigger over time. That

tactic doesnt have to have a state as the beneficiary. In this case, the beneficiary is their negative nationalist stance against the U.S.

http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat

.
.
.
It is also worth emphasising once again that nationalist feeling can be purely negative. There are, for example, Trotskyists who have become simply enemies of the U.S.S.R. without developing a corresponding loyalty to any other unit. When one grasps the implications of this, the nature of what I mean by nationalism becomes a good deal clearer. A nationalist is one who thinks solely, or mainly, in terms of competitive prestige. He may be a positive or a negative nationalist — that is, he may use his mental energy either in boosting or in denigrating — but at any rate his thoughts always turn on victories, defeats, triumphs and humiliations. He sees history, especially contemporary history, as the endless rise and decline of great power units, and every event that happens seems to him a demonstration that his own side is on the upgrade and some hated rival is on the downgrade. But finally, it is important not to confuse nationalism with mere worship of success. The nationalist does not go on the principle of simply ganging up with the strongest side. On the contrary, having picked his side, he persuades himself that it is the strongest, and is able to stick to his belief even when the facts are overwhelmingly against him. Nationalism is power-hunger tempered by self-deception. Every nationalist is capable of the most flagrant dishonesty, but he is also — since he is conscious of serving something bigger than himself — unshakeably certain of being in the right.
.
.
.
Negative Nationalism

(i) Anglophobia. Within the intelligentsia, a derisive and mildly hostile attitude towards Britain is more or less compulsory, but it is an unfaked emotion in many cases. During the war it was manifested in the defeatism of the intelligentsia, which persisted long after it had become clear that the Axis powers could not win. Many people were undisguisedly pleased when Singapore fell ore when the British were driven out of Greece, and there was a remarkable unwillingness to believe in good news, e.g. el Alamein, or the number of German planes shot down in the Battle of Britain. English left-wing intellectuals did not, of course, actually want the Germans or Japanese to win the war, but many of them could not help getting a certain kick out of seeing their own country humiliated, and wanted to feel that the final victory would be due to Russia, or perhaps America, and not to Britain. In foreign politics many intellectuals follow the principle that any faction backed by Britain must be in the wrong. As a result, ‘enlightened’ opinion is quite largely a mirror-image of Conservative policy. Anglophobia is always liable to reversal, hence that fairly common spectacle, the pacifist of one war who is a bellicist in the next.
.
.
.

[Zorra]

175. Someone revealing facts about wrongdoing, deceit, and corruption in governments and corporations

does not make them a negative nationalist, even in Orwell's subjective definition terminology.

Claiming that it does so is disingenuoulsy arguing for the stifling and silencing of legitimate dissent against a clearly corrupt authority.

And I believe that you are confusing "Americaphobia" with dissent against multi-national plutonomy.

James Clapper is still lying to America

http://www.salon.com/2013/07/01/this_man_is_still_lying_to_america/

Purpose

According to the WikiLeaks website, its goal is "to bring important news and information to the public... One of our most important activities is to publish original source material alongside our news stories so readers and historians alike can see evidence of the truth."

Another of the organisation's goals is to ensure that journalists and "whistleblowers" are not jailed for emailing sensitive or classified documents. The online "drop box" (currently not functioning) was designed to "provide an innovative, secure and anonymous way for sources to leak information to our journalists."

In an interview as part of the American television program The Colbert Report, Assange discussed the limit to the freedom of speech, saying, "[it is] not an ultimate freedom, however free speech is what regulates government and regulates law. That is why in the US Constitution the Bill of Rights says that Congress is to make no such law abridging the freedom of the press. It is to take the rights of the press outside the rights of the law because those rights are superior to the law because in fact they create the law. Every constitution, every bit of legislation is derived from the flow of information. Similarly every government is elected as a result of people understanding things".[36]

The project has been compared to Daniel Ellsberg's revelation of the "Pentagon Papers" (US war-related secrets) in 1971.[37] In the United States, the "leaking" of some documents may be legally protected. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the Constitution guarantees anonymity, at least in the context of political discourse.[37] Author and journalist Whitley Strieber has spoken about the benefits of the WikiLeaks project, noting that "Leaking a government document can mean jail, but jail sentences for this can be fairly short. However, there are many places where it means long incarceration or even death, such as China and parts of Africa and the Middle East."[38]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks

[MineralMan]

167. Thanks. K&R

For me, the most amusing comments in this thread have to do with a group on DU. It appears that some people think that anyone who posts in the Barack Obama Group is a traitor to some cause I can't seem to recognize. I don't post there, myself, but I can't imagine why posting in that DU group defines anyone in any way.

But, references to the "BOG" are frequent, insulting, and don't seem to me to be appropriate for this discussion forum.