I've avoided attacking Greenwald

[Recursion]

I don't think the personal attacks on him are fair (or accurate, as far as I've seen). And I don't think journalists (of which he is one) are wrong for publishing leaked information that gets to them -- that's their job (same reason I think Manning should be in jail and Assange shouldn't).

I do have one very big complaint about what he's been doing, though: he's taken a huge story that many journalists would kill for, and absolutely balls-up wrecked it. He has been factually wrong about every major claim he's made. He has consistently conflated multiple programs over multiple years and refused to address the corrections people have made to his work (in fact, he's called them "personal attacks", though in fairness he's seen plenty of those).

The NSA by all indications has overstepped its authority in surveilling US citizens. This is a problem, and it's a huge story that a journalist should get huge credit for breaking, but lying or egregiously erring in the course of reportage ends up killing your own story. The NSA is not capable of reading your words as you type them, nor is it recording US phone calls or US Internet traffic en masse. Whistleblowers are not being disappeared by the US government. Every time he blows another revelation, the chance of an actual discussion or political fix for this gets smaller, and for that I blame Greenwald.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

1. google "democraticunderground Recursion greenwald" to put that falsehood to rest - rofl

to put that falsehood to rest.

"I've avoided attacking Greenwald"



Then, of course, everything you say after that, on this topic, is suspect.

FYI: This isn't the M$M were you can put up blatant falsehoods and get away with it (this is even before getting into the strawman of your op) this is the www, were we can very easily point out disinformation, IMMEDIATELY.

Think about it...

[quinnox]

2. Wow, on a roll today, eh. Greenwald is meticulous and very careful in his words

I think you are mistaken in what you say, he has never said that kind of stuff. He certainly has not lied at all, unlike the NSA defense establishment.

[99Forever]

3. word

[Recursion]

6. Then why does he keep releasing documents that contradict his claims?

He's still basing his claims at least publicly on Snowden's word, because nothing he's released has confirmed his actual claim that the safeguards aren't working.

[quinnox]

8. On the contrary, his claims keep being confirmed by all the documents

he has released. Have you even looked at them? I suggest to do so. You are living in Bizarro world, quite frankly, if you think the documents are contradicting him.

[Recursion]

11. I think you're confusing "confirmation" and "contradiction"

When the documents say the opposite of what you claim, that's called a "contradiction". That's been everything Greenwald has released so far. Hell, there was even speculation on DU that the NSA "infected" the release because they made Greenwald's claims untenable (and, eventually, he had to backtrack some of them).

[quinnox]

14. You are the one who is confused my friend

I'm not going to post all the illustrations showing all the massive spying that Greenwald has reported on, and been confirmed, by those documents. You can find them on numerous websites. Try the Washington Post, for starters. Hopefully that is an "official" enough source for you.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

13. not to mention the many first-hand accounts by folks who worked inside

but of course that is dismissed out-of-hand by the totalitarian defenders, who somehow think that just because they dismiss it that reasonable people will dismiss it as well, when in-fact just the opposite.

[dkf]

15. Come on. Have you been reading about how domestic agencies are clamoring for NSA info?

Why would they care if all that they collected was strictly foreign related? That alone shows some misuse of collection.

[sabrina 1]

26. Every claim he's made so far has been CONFIRMED by the documents. And if you think

the Guardian published anything without doing what they did with Manning's leaks, you are mistaken.

As for you claim of not attacking Greenwald, I could swear I've seen you in Greenwald threads doing just that.

But I could be wrong.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

22. He hasn't lied but has grossly exaggerated his claims. Grossly!!

[pnwmom]

23. He's "meticulous" and yet we still don't know something as simple

as whether Snowden's been carrying around four laptops or just a thumb drive.

[MNBrewer]

25. Or how many boxes he had in his garage!

[DevonRex]

41. LOL. You sure did get distracted by those boxes. The rest of us

concentrate on the important things, though. So go right ahead and count boxes. I hear there's a UPS truck coming to your neighborhood tomorrow. That should keep you busy for awhile. And then the FedEx truck will be by around 6:00. If you're really lucky, the postal carrier will have a few, too!

Oh, wouldn't it be heaven for you if someone were to move??? They always have boxes!!!

[quinnox]

28. maybe, just maybe, they are withholding that information on purpose

I shouldn't have to explain this, or why they would do this. Think about it.

[pnwmom]

29. You mean that's why they're lying about it? Maybe. But it's still a lie. n/t

[quinnox]

37. you aren't seeing the big picture, the only ones lying are the NSA and their spying lackeys

[sabrina 1]

31. He hates ballet, or was it ballerinas?

He used to be a model? The Government told you all you need to know, he's got issues with boxes and ballerinas so what more do we need to know?

I don't care what he is carrying, or what he issues he has with boxes or ballerinas or how any laptops he has, all I'm interested in are the documents he has released so far and the fact that most of those I have some faith left in in our Government are not questioning his revelations but are trying to reign in the NSA and its hundreds of multi-billion dollar Private Security Corps.

[Luminous Animal]

34. Why would that be relevant?

[pnwmom]

38. If he's actually carrying around 4 laptops, it's hard to believe that the Chinese

and Russians haven't hacked into them. Business and university people going into those countries know that laptops taken there are at risk for being hacked.

[Luminous Animal]

39. I have do doubt that none of the info is on any of those 4 laptops...

The laptops are for configuring cascading security.

[pnwmom]

40. Then how did the Chinese newspapers get the information about the IP addresses we were hacking?

Snowden insists he didn't share this with them; and another Snowden supporter here (I don't remember who) said Snowden didn't give this to them voluntarily -- that Snowden supposedly said they must have hacked his computers in order to get the info.

[Luminous Animal]

45. Link to each and every one of your assertions. Sentence by sentence.

Really. Otherwise you are just another blowhard on the internet.

[Th1onein]

44. Sorry, pnwmom, FAIL.

You see, when it's YOUR team that started the rumor about the laptops, you don't get to say that our team hasn't confirmed that rumor.

We're not in the business of confirming rumors that you spread.

[cantbeserious]

4. The Reporting Conflicts With Your Statements

eom

[Recursion]

5. Nope. Greenwald keeps releasing documents that contradict his own claims. Repeatedly.

This has been covered numerous times here, and even some of the hair-on-fire brigade have had to admit it.

[cantbeserious]

7. We Will Have To Agree To Disagree

eom

[sabrina 1]

32. Give an example ...

[Luminous Animal]

35. And yet, you've not pointed out even one contradiction.

[Skittles]

9. I cannot see through you

no I cannot

[Jackpine Radical]

21. Me neither.

[Skittles]

24. maybe we should try these

[Electric Monk]

27. or these?

[Skittles]

33. I got a blocked content message so I searched for it at youtube

very interesting stuff!!!

[dkf]

10. You can't say with certainty what they do or don't do.

We don't know it all yet.

For all you know he has documents but has not released them yet. Thousands and thousands of docs exist which he has possession of and you don't.

[Recursion]

16. I certainly can't. I *can* say that the docs GG has released say the opposite of what he claims

They show very clearly the procedures (the same "mere procedures" Snowden mocked) that are in place to keep US citizens from being targets of surveillance.

Now, the Congressional hearings have revealed that there are multiple problems with the NSA's programs under the rubric of the PATRIOT act as amended. But (like the rest of the media), GG seems unable or unwilling to walk and chew gum at the same time and actually parse out what the different programs here are.

[dkf]

17. Lol if US citizens are not targets why do the FBI, DEA and who knows who want access to NSA data?

Why would they need to disguise the fact that NSA data was used? And those are stories by the WAPo and Reuters, not Greenwald.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

18. Sure, they do... the rest of the world's 'hair is on fire' because they are not as smart as YOU

right?

Bwahahahahahaha!

I think psychologists have a clinical term for that... hmmmm is it paranoid delusional disorder?

[leveymg]

12. Greenwald has neither egregiously erred nor is he killing the NSA spying story. Black isn't white.

Sorry. But your critique isn't part of the reality-based community.

Hot air framed as sympathy, and laced with boldest hyperbole (in bold):

he's taken a huge story that many journalists would kill for, and absolutely balls-up wrecked it. He has been factually wrong about every major claim he's made. He has consistently conflated multiple programs over multiple years

Not, not, not, not.

[dkf]

19. The story is far beyond Greenwald in any case.

Senator Durbin has added a request asking for the entire extent of NSA collection to a defense bill. I hope it will be passed so we can examine exactly what is being done.

I have a feeling you will be shocked or you should be given your understanding of the very very limited program you seem to think exists.

[pa28]

20. Well that's it then. He's killed his own story.

That means Greenwald is irrelevant and there is no ground to be gained by discussing or attacking him.

So let's all take your suggestion, remove Greenwald from the equation and have a discussion based on the issue at hand. New rule.

[struggle4progress]

30. IMO that's Greenwald's standard MO

[sabrina 1]

36. I'll take that with the credit it is due. n/t

[struggle4progress]

42. Here's what I learned when I tried to check Greenwald's claims about Swedish extradition law

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3130978

[Th1onein]

43. With all due respect, Recursion, you don't know what you're talking about.

We are just finding out that the DEA and the NSA are sharing information, and "recreating" investigations to rehabilitate the evidence that they are sharing, so that it won't be viewed by the courts as fruit of the poisoned tree, and so that they don't have to tell defense lawyers where it came from.

I think we are seeing the tip of the iceberg and for you to come on here and try to tell us what is and what isn't true is just arrogant.

[Cha]

46. Excellent OP, Recursion..

thank you.

[pam4water]

47. You post is nothing but a Fox News style personal attack.

[sheshe2]

48. K&R!

Recursion. Thank you for the OP!