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MineralMan

(146,241 posts)
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:43 PM Aug 2013

68 Years Ago, plus or minus a few days, something horrible happened, and something hopeful.

Last edited Tue Aug 6, 2013, 04:36 PM - Edit history (1)

I was born to a 21 year old woman living in Arizona, while her husband, who was only 20, was in Northern Africa, flying the same B-17 he had flown on many bombing missions, now ferrying people on their way back to the USA from Italy. That was, for me and for my parents, the hopeful thing.

A few days later, the United States dropped the first nuclear weapon on Hiroshima, and then on Nagasaki. The European war was over, but the war in the Pacific was still going on. That was the horrible thing, and it remains a horrible thing.

Now, 68 years later, we're still talking about those two nuclear weapons. None have been used since to destroy cities and kill people. And that's rightfully so. The world, and we, were horrified at the destructive power of nuclear weapons and, despite an arms race that saw the creation of thousands of the infernal devices, none were ever used in war again. It's good that we're still talking about it.

Still, the question of whether we should have used those weapons at the end of the Pacific war can never really be answered. Now, 68 years later, we are no closer to a satisfactory answer than we were in 1945. The war with Japan ended quickly after those two bombs were dropped, and no such wide-scale war has occurred since.

That 20 year old man, and his wife, are still alive, and living on their farm in California. Their health is declining, and at 88 and 89 years of age, they don't have a lot of time left. They're typical of those who were involved in WWII in one way or another. One was a bomber pilot, and the other a very young woman with a newly-born infant and an absent husband. Ask them about dropping nuclear weapons on Japan, and they'll say the same things people are saying today. They don't know whether it was the right thing or the wrong thing to do, and can tell you why there is indecision in their thinking. They lived it.

I didn't live it. I was born almost simultaneously with the bombing. I grew up hiding under desks during "Atomic Bomb" drills, and helped my father build a fallout shelter under our house in 1960, during the Cuban missile crisis. I grew up being an opponent of nuclear weapons, and nuclear power generation, too, following a meltdown in the first commercial nuclear power generation facility ever built, not 10 air miles from my Southern California home.

Nuclear weapons are a horror. That is precisely why they were never used again in a war. I hope that continues to be the case, and I think it will. We don't do world wars any longer, but that doesn't mean we're not at war with one country or another or one terrorist organization or another from time to time. Humans are at war much of the time, have been through most of human history, and more's the pity.

But what happened 68 years ago presents questions that can't really be answered well. Was it the right or wrong thing to do? I don't know. My parents, who were intimately aware of it, don't know. Nobody really knows. That's what happened, and was the final end to that horrible war. It hasn't happened again. It should never happen again. I hope it does not happen again.

But that was 68 years ago. Most of the people who were alive then are dead. The ones who are not, including me, still cannot adequately answer the question, because there is no correct answer. Not ever using such weapons again is the correct answer.

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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68 Years Ago, plus or minus a few days, something horrible happened, and something hopeful. (Original Post) MineralMan Aug 2013 OP
You grew up during the War on the Left leftstreet Aug 2013 #1
I grew up because I was born in 1945. MineralMan Aug 2013 #2
The war didn't end. Ordnance and uniforms changed leftstreet Aug 2013 #3
That is true. However, we have managed to MineralMan Aug 2013 #4
I was born in 1939 and remember when Pearl Harbor was attacked. RebelOne Aug 2013 #10
There are quite a fee of us elders on DU MineralMan Aug 2013 #12
And I was born Aug. 1. My dad was in the army in Hawaii preparing for land invasion of Japan. SharonAnn Aug 2013 #5
You and my sister share a birthday, although she was born MineralMan Aug 2013 #6
Good post, and I'll repost a related thing I posted in another thread frazzled Aug 2013 #7
Thank you for your post. MineralMan Aug 2013 #8
It's horrific to think that we dropped a nuclear bomb on a major city. JaneyVee Aug 2013 #9
Yes. All bombings of civilian areas MineralMan Aug 2013 #11
I thought I'd never say this, but excellent post, MineralMan! Violet_Crumble Aug 2013 #13
Thanks. nt MineralMan Aug 2013 #15
Imagine How Many Lives Would Have Been Saved IF We Had Accepted Japans 1 Condition Earlier? usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #14
Thanks for taking the time to reply, MineralMan Aug 2013 #16
Too bad i can't say the same for you usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #17
Well I see that you simply reposted your own MineralMan Aug 2013 #18
To counter a point you made, that I quoted in my response, which you choose to ignore. usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #19
Ok, but I am not trying to justiify anything. MineralMan Aug 2013 #20
The whole point of your post was to say we can never answer the question usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #24
I didn't see MineralMan trying to justify it anywhere in his OP... Violet_Crumble Aug 2013 #21
He says repeatedly that the question has no answer. FALSE. And that they ended the war. FALSE usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #25
I wouldn't call Nagasaki hopeful. rug Aug 2013 #22
No. What was hopful was the birth of a child. MineralMan Aug 2013 #23
you never fail to snark, even on such a serious and sensitive topic usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #26
You do not consider a child's birth to be MineralMan Aug 2013 #27
I consider the gist of your post to be a spurious argument usGovOwesUs3Trillion Aug 2013 #31
Look...as you said...we don't agree on much in our views... KoKo Aug 2013 #28
Thanks forr reading it. MineralMan Aug 2013 #29
I just added an edit...so check back. n/t KoKo Aug 2013 #30

MineralMan

(146,241 posts)
2. I grew up because I was born in 1945.
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:54 PM
Aug 2013

It wasn't my choice, you know. And that is not the point of my post, anyhow. I'm not sure what your point is, either.

leftstreet

(36,097 posts)
3. The war didn't end. Ordnance and uniforms changed
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:56 PM
Aug 2013

That was my only point

I liked your post, by the way. It's representative of thousands of kids growing up post WWII

MineralMan

(146,241 posts)
4. That is true. However, we have managed to
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 04:00 PM
Aug 2013

avoid using nuclear weapons every since. That is a sign of some sort of rational thinking, at least.

We still have them, though. That needs to be corrected, I believe, and I've believed that since I was able to think for myself.

RebelOne

(30,947 posts)
10. I was born in 1939 and remember when Pearl Harbor was attacked.
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 07:53 PM
Aug 2013

My parents told me and I thought that Pearl was a woman and I remember saying, "Poor Pearl." But I am one who lived at that time, and I am still around and hope not to be if we have another world war.

SharonAnn

(13,771 posts)
5. And I was born Aug. 1. My dad was in the army in Hawaii preparing for land invasion of Japan.
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 04:09 PM
Aug 2013

Needless to say, my parents' and their families were worried sick. My grandfather had been serving as Army Dr. in the South Pacific campaign for almost 2 years.

MineralMan

(146,241 posts)
6. You and my sister share a birthday, although she was born
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 04:10 PM
Aug 2013

in 1946. Worry was the order of the day for those who were at home at the time.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
7. Good post, and I'll repost a related thing I posted in another thread
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 04:57 PM
Aug 2013

This is the moral dilemma we face. But it is particularly pertinent in these times, I think, when we ponder the more surgical ways in which war is able to be waged today. Technology continues to change the face of warfare. In World War I it was mustard gas; it World War II it was aerial bombing and, eventually, nuclear weapons; in Vietnam it was agent orange; in the era of non-state warfare it is the drone.


My father, who is going on 97 this year, has become rather philosophical of late. A veteran of World War II (he flew 60 missions in the South Pacific, as a tail gunner), he has been reassessing what he was asked to do back then, especially since one of his grandsons married a Japanese woman and moved to Japan. He even says that he believes he was dropping agent orange on towns and villages, and he looks sad. He has been morally challenged. But he recently said something to me that got me thinking. We bombed whole cities full of innocent civilians in World War II, he said—Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. It was terrible. But why is it that people today think we can have wars but not kill anyone?

Well, it's a good question. Partly it may be that we have not had a war that anyone has believed in the way people believed in the great World Wars. We just don't think they should be waged at all, and so any collateral damage is unacceptable. But it got me thinking about the current conversations we have here about drones, and about the Apache helicopter footage exposed by Manning, in which two Reuters cameramen died among the 8 people who were killed. This tragedy (the kind of mistake that hapens in the fog of war) has become the rallying cry for many. Yet how it pales in comparison to what was done to Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki. Let's take Dresden alone:

In four raids between 13 and 15 February 1945, 722 heavy bombers of the British Royal Air Force (RAF) and 527 of the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) dropped more than 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city. The resulting firestorm destroyed fifteen square miles (39 square kilometres) of the city centre. Between 22,000 and 25,000 people were killed.


And those weren't the only European cities bombed (I think of Rotterdam, for example). I can't imagine what it must have felt like to be an American citizen watching this from home at the time. I can only think how conflicted I would have felt. How many tens of thousands of innocent civilians were killed; and how many cities were devastated. It seems to me at times a tad hysterical to consider the collateral damage from today's surgical strikes in even the same breath. War is horrible; it kills innocent people. I can't ever quite come to terms with it.

If these questions concern you, I can recommend no more beautiful and contemplative film than Anand Patwardhan's War and Peace, which examines these subjects from the perspective of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to the nuclear escalation between India and Pakistan.

Filmed over 4 years in India, Pakistan, Japan and the USA following nuclear tests in the Indian sub-continent, War and Peace is a documentary journey of peace activism in the face of global militarism and war.

As we enter the 21st century, war has become perennial, enemies are re-invented and economies are inextricably tied to the production and sale of weapons. In the moral wastelands of the world memories of Gandhi seem like a mirage that never was, created by our thirst for peace and our very distance from it.

&feature
 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
9. It's horrific to think that we dropped a nuclear bomb on a major city.
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 07:48 PM
Aug 2013

We didn't just kill hundreds of thousands of people, but we caused generations of genetic mutations.

MineralMan

(146,241 posts)
11. Yes. All bombings of civilian areas
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 07:57 PM
Aug 2013

are horrific, and many nations did that. Warfare in general is horrific. Would that wars did not occur...

 

usGovOwesUs3Trillion

(2,022 posts)
14. Imagine How Many Lives Would Have Been Saved IF We Had Accepted Japans 1 Condition Earlier?
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 08:04 PM
Aug 2013

No Okinawa, or Iwo?

No nuclear arms race?

No cold war?

After we ran out of nukes, and the soviets invaded, we finally accepted that 1 condition.

Japan would have continued to fight on if we hadn't.

It was a wise decision, it should have happened earlier though, but politics demanded the SHOCK & AWE.

The Japanese only surrendered when their one condition was met, when we FINALLY accepted their 1 condition, and the Chrysanthemum Throne stands in testament to the wisdom of that decision, as the oldest continuing hereditary monarchy in the world to this very day... too bad we didn't accept it earlier.



I strongly disagree with your statement that "Now, 68 years later, we are no closer to a satisfactory answer than we were in 1945" we now know that they were NOT militarily necessary and I encourage all who require more than some sappy home-spun story to justify the use of those terrorist weapons on an innocent civilian population to read more of the historical record.

Here is a very good place to start...
http://www.doug-long.com/debate.htm

MineralMan

(146,241 posts)
18. Well I see that you simply reposted your own
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 08:12 PM
Aug 2013

OP in my thread, and it is not responsive to my post. Have a nice evening.

 

usGovOwesUs3Trillion

(2,022 posts)
19. To counter a point you made, that I quoted in my response, which you choose to ignore.
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 08:17 PM
Aug 2013

The days of white-washing this horrific war crime are over, and will be challenged whenever it is attempted.

I admit that I still get sick thinking about what we did their so long ago, but what makes me even sicker is hearing the BS that still get's thrown around to try and justify it.

MineralMan

(146,241 posts)
20. Ok, but I am not trying to justiify anything.
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 08:19 PM
Aug 2013

Sorry you are confused. I hope your thread does not get hijacked, too.

 

usGovOwesUs3Trillion

(2,022 posts)
24. The whole point of your post was to say we can never answer the question
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 08:27 PM
Aug 2013

Which I completely disagree with.

In fact, if we do NOT try to answer that very question, will only increase the likely hood that they are used again.

And there have been times in our history since then were they were again contemplated, and they are on the table today.

So this is a vital question to examine, and understand, not for it to be swept under the rug, not to be questioned, because no one can really know the answer.

That is TOTAL BS.

Violet_Crumble

(35,955 posts)
21. I didn't see MineralMan trying to justify it anywhere in his OP...
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 08:20 PM
Aug 2013

If he had, I wouldn't have thought it was a really excellent OP...

 

usGovOwesUs3Trillion

(2,022 posts)
25. He says repeatedly that the question has no answer. FALSE. And that they ended the war. FALSE
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 08:31 PM
Aug 2013

"Now, 68 years later, we are no closer to a satisfactory answer than we were in 1945. The war with Japan ended quickly after those two bombs were dropped"

Sorry, but this is a very important question for all of us to understand fully, and to reject the decades old propaganda, that "they saved lives", they "ended the war", they were "military necessary", etc. and start dealing with this issue openly and truthfully for all our futures.

Otherwise we are condemned to repeat it.

 

usGovOwesUs3Trillion

(2,022 posts)
31. I consider the gist of your post to be a spurious argument
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 08:47 PM
Aug 2013

One aimed at discouraging debate and discussion of a very important topic.

How odd.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
28. Look...as you said...we don't agree on much in our views...
Tue Aug 6, 2013, 08:38 PM
Aug 2013

And most of what you post ...I read and disagree with.

But, I'm a pragmatic person..and closer in "life perspective" than you might think..

I did read and appreciate your OP...even though I find your views narrow and not viewing "Change" as something we should deal with...because it's "uncomfortable to you" and that you can't seem to understand those of us who fight for change...who might be in your "particular time frame of birth.

Anyway...it was an interesting read...so a K&R to you.

On Edit...I don't think I said what I said very well...

So...I'll just say...we are closer on issues you bring up in your OP than you might think. It's our presentations of how we as children dealt with it...that causes us differences. But, again...we share a history...but we evolved differently .....yet, I think, times are such...we might seek to find more "common ground" in what we face ahead...rather than our "differences."

Not to be ....I get from you! But, I do think you could rethink and look for "commonality" from DU'ers here who have your same experiences...but, took that different path.

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