Texans: We will draw the line on roadside fingerf*ing by the cops.

[elehhhhna]

Right?


Only young/ish women huh? What's up with that? Profiling? Seems they select unaccompanied females (no parents, SO's) for their extrajudicial gropings. Coincidence?

[Skidmore]

1. Yes, please, Texans.

Time for some Moral Monday action in the Lone Star state.

[Champion Jack]

2. Fuck tha police

In Texas that is

[Lancero]

9. In Texas...

The police fuck you.

This is the same in any state, but Texas takes that statement a bit more... literally.

[elehhhhna]

5. They don't know their rights and the cops can legally lie

Best believe I gave my daughters and their friends a 5 minute seminar on what to do if they're pulled over, etc.

[Cronus Protagonist]

7. They stood and let a rubber gloved stranger violate them

Not at all their fault, don't get me wrong, but I'm shocked. It's even more shocking that a police office would do that to a citizen, of course.

I am shocked and amazed that a woman in this country would allow anyone else to do this to her like that. I never would have thought it could happen if I hadn't seen the video. They were both so trusting of authority that they stood and let it happen. I'm simply flabbergasted.

[eggplant]

10. "let"?

Three armed police officers? I'm pretty sure that the women didn't "allow" anything. I doubt they were "trusting". I'm pretty sure they were raped.

You are essentially asking "why didn't they fight back against their armed rapists?" I think the question answers itself.

[Skittles]

11. there is no way in HELL they could do that to me

no way

[Cronus Protagonist]

15. Precisely

You wouldn't have let them do that.

[pnwmom]

29. Why would the young women have felt safe in opposing the police?

It is up to the police to behave legally, not to someone at a traffic stop to somehow know how to defend herself against them.

[Cronus Protagonist]

45. It's not a safety matter

I agree with you that they may not feel safe. I don't feel safe being within 30 feet of any armed person, police or not. Perhaps more so with police, who have a license to kill and are trained to lie before and after the fact.

However, this is the land of the brave, home of the free. And if the cops point a gun at me, I won't feel safe, but you can safely bet your life savings that I'll be shouting at them "Don't shoot! Please don't shoot!" as I have done the four or five times in the past where the cops have come at me with guns pointed at me. Guns, rubber gloves, batons - all would at the very least meet with verbal resistance.

Likewise, particularly when the cops appear to be polite for the most part, there's no reason NOT to say "I do NOT consent to any searches", as I always do, and EVERY US citizen ought to do too.

If the victims had done that, the whole incident might not have turned out the way it did.

I'm NOT blaming the women here, but instead wishing they had stood their ground and at the very least called up their American spirit and told the cops where they could get off. That's what I want to see. The fighting spirit that Americans are known for across the world. Strong women standing up for their rights, for which this country is famous.

It would also have removed any claims on the officers part that the victims consented.

[pnwmom]

48. Are you a guy by any chance? Because I think most young women wouldn't respond

as you think they should.

[Cronus Protagonist]

62. Stipulated.

And this needs to change.

[pnwmom]

63. What needs to change is the Texas police system. n/t

[Cronus Protagonist]

64. Both. Yes.

I know you are not advocating FOR the ignorance of women. I refuse to believe that, so you must agree that all women in this country need to stand up for their rights, even in the face of fear. As Nancy Reagan once said, "Just SAY NO!", in a different context, but it really is that simple sometimes.

At the very least one has to establish to the actors and others present or witnessing that what is going on here is not with your own consent.

That's all I'm hoping for here. For people to stand up for their rights as an American; as a human being, no less.

I do so wish these two women had done so prior to the sad and shocking events that occurred. Not. Their. Fault. But I do feel they would have been better off if they had verbally staked their claims to their own rights in the face of the abusers. Afraid or not.

And a potential bonus might have been that maybe, just maybe, the events would not have transpired as they did and the officers would not have taken this "opportunity" against an apparently more formidable victim.

I am horrified by the whole thing.

[NutmegYankee]

17. The victims didn't let them, they were made to comply.

Sure, they could have resisted, been beaten/tazed/maced, and then once handcuffed and charged with multiple felonies, still raped.

Let's not blame the victims here.

[Skittles]

26. I am NOT blaming the victims

I am simply saying it is a shame these gals do NOT KNOW THEIR RIGHTS

[NutmegYankee]

30. Sorry, I misread what you were saying.

[Politicalboi]

39. How is knowing their rights at that moment

Going to stop the rape? You can tell the cop ALL you want about your rights as they are reaching down your pants. Even if you had a gun you couldn't stop it unless you are willing to shoot, and get shot.

[Skittles]

42. ooooooookay

[pnwmom]

25. How representative do you think you are of the younger female population?

You don't seem very able to put yourself in their shoes.

[Politicalboi]

37. And how would you stop it?

If not by the roadside, then in jail.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

55. No way? Do you still fly? If so, do you object to TSA groping? A lot of people don't.

[Cronus Protagonist]

14. I would have said "No"

Wouldn't you at least do that?

[NutmegYankee]

18. And you would have been beaten/tazed/maced, and charged with a felony for resisting arrest.

It's easy to say you'd just say no when you aren't in that position.

[Cronus Protagonist]

19. I'm glad I don't live in your imaginary world

I bet you five dollars they would have said "OK, we'll bring a dog to sniff your vehicle" or "we'll have to take you down to the station" or something like that. You have a violent imagination that reaches way beyond what was shown on the tape.

Besides, saying "NO, I do NOT consent to a search" to any search request is absolutely the correct and right thing to do - ask any attorney. Without that, you have given consent, which makes any illegal search case much harder to win.

[NutmegYankee]

20. Wow, aren't you a funny one!

You damn well know that police willing to violate someone's rights to the extent here would manufacture probable cause and place them under arrest. And once arrested, they can be legally strip searched, as SCOTUS ruled recently.

I don't like, you obviously don't like it, but don't blame the victims of this crime.

[Cronus Protagonist]

21. Well, you're the one living in a nightmare

Have you been checked by a doctor?

[NutmegYankee]

22. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_brutality_in_the_United_States

Yes, our world is a nightmare right now.

[Cronus Protagonist]

28. Logical fallacy

I won't address that further.

Don't you know that a key element to an accusation of rape is to resist? The victims here should know that too. If neither you nor they know that, then well, I stand by my point which is that in a free world, land of the free home of the brave and all that, citizens ought not to placidly allow an authority figure to finger them on the side of a road.

A refusal on their part would perhaps have entirely prevented the abuse. Again, not to diminish the disgusting police abuse, but I so so wish these women had just a little fight in them to resist this, at the very least verbally.

If a cop ever tries that on me, they will have to have me tied down hands and feet before they can get the gloves on.

[NutmegYankee]

32. tying you down can be arranged:

[NutmegYankee]

33. Please explain the logical fallacy.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

56. Do you fly? What about TSA employees who are working up to more fuller exams?

[pnwmom]

23. They were SHOCKED and they were SCARED and no one had ever prepared them

for something like this.

Yes, any attorney would have advised them to say out loud they did not consent. But they didn't have any attorney there to advise them, and they obviously hadn't had the life experience.

I've told my female relatives in Texas that this is what they should do -- but it never occurred to me before these incidents that I needed to tell them this.

[Comrade Grumpy]

24. That world is not so imaginary. Although I encourage you to stand up for your rights...

...bad things sometimes happen to people who do.

I also agree that you should clearly say "No, I do not consent to a search," but that may not matter. The police can say they have probable cause. And then, if you resist, you are in trouble.

In this case, it seems like the Texas DPS needs to be pressured to lay down the law to its troopers.

[Cronus Protagonist]

34. So we agree

Glad to see someone's got an operating brain cell on DU today!

If the police then claim probable cause, at least it has been established that their actions are NOT in agreement with the citizen. When a cop asks to search me or my vehicle, I lay my keys on the roof, put my hands in the air, and yell loudly that I do not consent to any searches.

They will meet no further resistance from me unless and until they try to reach for my butt, at which point I will not allow it to the best of my physical capability. The only way they're getting their fingers up my ass is if I'm tied down.

And I do so wish these women had the same gumption to have been able to better defend themselves against this illegal personal attack.

[NutmegYankee]

43. And when you resist, what do you think is going happen?

First of all, the attacks on intelligence are unwarranted and violations of community standards. You damn well know I was referring to what happens after you refuse to consent. You really think the police are just going to give up? Have you been reading the articles lately and watching the videos. They will arrest you, take you to jail, and based on the recent SCOTUS decision, strip search you against your will.

Stop blaming the victims. It's disgusting behavior for DU!

[NutmegYankee]

27. And please review the SCOTUS decision on strip searches for arrests.

[pnwmom]

31. Being silent is not the same as consent, which is why the police settled the lawsuit. n/t

[bunnies]

36. Ive invoked my 4th amendment.

And none of those things happened. I didnt hesitate then nor would I now.

[NutmegYankee]

41. I had that view once.

But then I experienced a fucked up event down south that forever tainted my view of police.

[bunnies]

44. I understand.

Maybe I got lucky because there were 4 or 5 others in the house with me. They sure tried like hell to intimidate us though. Flat out lying that I *had* to let them in. There were 5 cops at my door and then they came with a dog. I think many people would have been bullied into doing what they wanted, including a few that were with me that night who were scared shitless.

[tblue37]

46. Did you see the video? They did NOT "let" the cops do it,

any more than a woman who is raped by a strong man, or an armed man, or a gang (or an armed gang) "lets" them do it. The cops are armed, and they also have the power to arrest the women, lie about why, and totally ruin their lives if they do not cooperate.

They have also been known to Tase, beat, an even kill anyone who crosses them in any way. ANd they get away with these crimes, because all investigations are done in-house, so of course the criminal cops are always vindicated.

Even at that, though, one of these women in at least one of the videos screamed and protested as she was being violated.

I once read on a Facebook page frequented by cops that they are the largest, most dangerous armed gang in the US. That statement was posted as a boast by a cop!

[Cronus Protagonist]

49. I don't know who you're railing against here

I am totally in agreement that the cops are the largest armed gang in the US besides the TSA and HS, and that there are abuses, and that they are dangerous, and that some cops have tased me bro and all that. In fact, I trust a cop less than I would trust a priest, and that's pretty low.

Still, a simple "NO" would have gone a long way. And I did watch the video. One of the women complained after the fact. I so wish she had refused the search before the fact, as was her right. All rights are yours, but must be defended against attack, as in this case of severe abuse on the part of the cops.

[Skittles]

52. CORRECT

[kestrel91316]

35. If they protest or fight the assault, they WILL be tazed, beaten, or shot, and will

possibly wind up dead. Sometime you just give in to your rapist so that you can live.

Rape culture is alive and well as long as ANY man blames the victims of rape.

[CincyDem]

38. The unfortunate reality is that the constitution only exists...

...in the cold light of day. On a dark, remote road there is no spitting amendments, especially when there are no "witnesses" other than the video tape I can take home and peruse at my leisure night after night until the next suspect needs to be searched.

Having lived in North East Texas for a while, I know many parents who told their kids (male and female) to no stop for anything on some of those back rural roads. Drive to a fire station or the police station but better to take the hit for "fleeing" to someplace safe then to end up 1:1 with some of these guys in the middle of nowhere.

Sorry Texans, I'm sure Fannin County isn't representative of the whole state but it is a reality in some parts of the Lone Star State.

[kenny blankenship]

61. We are so used to the spectacle of *any* resistance being met with crushing, retaliatory force

that by now the lesson is well and truly learned. Resist the police in any way, even verbally as in merely questioning their commands for clarification or legal basis, and the sky will fall on you in the next moment. Bad goes to infinitely worse in an eyeblink. That's how the police and their authoritarian defenders always liked it, and they have two political parties in America who'll give them all the room to swing a baton that they could ever want. And riot gear and supersoaker pepper spray cannons, too. And tanks, and machine guns. And drones, and pain rays.

If you're thinking about standing on your rights in an encounter with a cop, you better be a lawyer or extremely well versed in case law. Otherwise they are going to roll right over your verbal protests and will probably make you eat some extra dirt for your insolent back talk.

[NutmegYankee]

67. I tried to point that out and got told that was just imaginary.

Seems that poster doesn't want to debate anymore. He just jumped in a few Ad hominem attacks and ran away.

What a pity...

[rug]

4. That's better than the line Travis drew at the Alamo.

[SummerSnow]

6. Nasty mofos

[Dwayne Hicks]

8. Texans need to

Have Moral Monday's at their capital! Do not stop until all this nonsense is repealed and they extremists are voted out of office.

[arely staircase]

12. these cops need to go to jail nt

[Enthusiast]

13. It is as simple as that. I agree...........nt

[tblue37]

47. But of course they won't. If they risked any real punishment,

they would not feel so comfortable committing the crimes they commit.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

57. Prison

not jail.

[PDittie]

16. Borrowed this

on Twitter.

[Buns_of_Fire]

40. This is when several well-placed billboards need to go up.

Just warning people entering the state of what might be the consequences of being stopped on a Texas road. I guarantee that when such billboards eventually hit the evening news and tourism starts to suffer and a lot of questions start being asked, even Governor Goodhair is going to take some action (if he can remember what it is he's supposed to be taking action about).

Problem is, the decent people with money don't seem to be as willing to bankroll things like this as are the greedheads who'll bankroll anything that'll mess up things even worse than they are now.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

58. Good idea!

[Buns_of_Fire]

60. Thank you (I'm allowed a few per year).

To expand on it a little:

I don't see a lot of verbiage on them (it's got to be short enough to be completely read in a glance, especially since they'd be on major roads and interstates). No pictures, either. Just something short and stark with really big lettering. Something like:

[center]WARNING!
WOMEN PULLED OVER ON TEXAS ROADS ARE SUBJECT TO BODY CAVITY PROBING[/center]

Just enough so that someone glancing at it while driving is going to think "WTF???". No deep explanations, no exhortations about 4th Amendment rights, nothing political at all.

Combined with a few pictures of the signs sent to media outlets, and I think the rest would take care of itself and stuff would start to hit the ventilator pretty quickly. I'm not talking about shaming the perpetrators (they have no shame), but a mention (or story) hitting national would probably cause a dip in tourism; I'm talking about hitting them where it'll hurt the most -- the wallet.

If I could afford to do it, I would (I don't think it would take all THAT much money, all things considered -- especially since I doubt the signs would have to be up very long).

[AnotherMcIntosh]

65. May I offer an addition of two words? And a suggestion?

WARNING!

WOMEN PULLED OVER ON TEXAS ROADS BY POLICE

ARE SUBJECT TO BODY CAVITY PROBING

You've got a good idea. Maybe it would be worthwhile to share it with a women's organization that could put it on a billboard.

There's no way that two separate incidences, in separate areas of Texas, could be the only ones.

[Buns_of_Fire]

66. Excellent clarification. Assigns the responsibility PRECISELY where it belongs.

I'll do some Googling around and see if I can identify any semi-well-heeled organizations that might be interested in such a project. (If any other DUer here knows of any offhand, and thinks this might be something worth pursuing, feel free to submit it to them under your own name. Let us know what kind of response you get.)

If nothing else, an official request (from an organization with some teeth and press access) for clarification of the department's policy on such things, along with a comment that the organization was considering notifying its membership of the situation might do some good. I could write such a request myself, but as a nobody from another state altogether, I doubt it would have much impact.

I'm also sure these aren't the only instances. The victims are probably not inclined to report it.

[Auntie Bush]

50. All those cops involved should be arrested on rape charges.

The men get their jollies watching and controlling and humiliating women.

[bravenak]

51. It's only finger fuc.... If its consensual.

This is rape. We convicted an officer of the law here in Alaska for raping female suspects. 87 years.
http://www.adn.com/2012/04/13/2422003/rollins-sentenced-to-87-years.html
This is what needs to be done.

[therehegoes]

53. Cops also plant evidence, lie, tamper with evidence and fail to follow proper police protocol

This is in FRISCO Texas, the "crown jewel" of Texas and in the heart (as my lawyer says) of the most fascist county in the nation.

Judges are also involved, see the latest crazy Judges dealing at

www.friscopaul.blogspot.com

[AnotherMcIntosh]

54. What's with your headline? When did Texans say that?

[CanonRay]

59. Seriously, is anybody investigating this in Texas?

Is DOJ/Civil Rights Division doing anything? The Texas AG? Anybody?