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n2doc

(47,953 posts)
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:40 AM Aug 2013

THE PAY IS TOO DAMN LOW


BY JAMES SUROWIECKI

A few weeks ago, Washington, D.C., passed a living-wage bill designed to make Walmart pay its workers a minimum of $12.50 an hour. Then President Obama called on Congress to raise the federal minimum wage (which is currently $7.25 an hour). McDonald’s was widely derided for releasing a budget to help its employees plan financially, since that only underscored how brutally hard it is to live on a McDonald’s wage. And last week fast-food workers across the country staged walkouts, calling for an increase in their pay to fifteen dollars an hour. Low-wage earners have long been the hardest workers to organize and the easiest to ignore. Now they’re front-page news.

The workers’ grievances are simple: low wages, few (if any) benefits, and little full-time work. In inflation-adjusted terms, the minimum wage, though higher than it was a decade ago, is still well below its 1968 peak (when it was worth about $10.70 an hour in today’s dollars), and it’s still poverty-level pay. To make matters worse, most fast-food and retail work is part time, and the weak job market has eroded what little bargaining power low-wage workers had: their earnings actually fell between 2009 and last year, according to the National Employment Law Project.

Still, the reason this has become a big political issue is not that the jobs have changed; it’s that the people doing the jobs have. Historically, low-wage work tended to be done either by the young or by women looking for part-time jobs to supplement family income. As the historian Bethany Moreton has shown, Walmart in its early days sought explicitly to hire underemployed married women. Fast-food workforces, meanwhile, were dominated by teen-agers. Now, though, plenty of family breadwinners are stuck in these jobs. That’s because, over the past three decades, the U.S. economy has done a poor job of creating good middle-class jobs; five of the six fastest-growing job categories today pay less than the median wage. That’s why, as a recent study by the economists John Schmitt and Janelle Jones has shown, low-wage workers are older and better educated than ever. More important, more of them are relying on their paychecks not for pin money or to pay for Friday-night dates but, rather, to support families. Forty years ago, there was no expectation that fast-food or discount-retail jobs would provide a living wage, because these were not jobs that, in the main, adult heads of household did. Today, low-wage workers provide forty-six per cent of their family’s income. It is that change which is driving the demand for higher pay.

The situation is the result of a tectonic shift in the American economy. In 1960, the country’s biggest employer, General Motors, was also its most profitable company and one of its best-paying. It had high profit margins and real pricing power, even as it was paying its workers union wages. And it was not alone: firms like Ford, Standard Oil, and Bethlehem Steel employed huge numbers of well-paid workers while earning big profits. Today, the country’s biggest employers are retailers and fast-food chains, almost all of which have built their businesses on low pay—they’ve striven to keep wages down and unions out—and low prices.

much more

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2013/08/12/130812ta_talk_surowiecki
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THE PAY IS TOO DAMN LOW (Original Post) n2doc Aug 2013 OP
If You Don't Like The Pay On The Job You Have You Are Free To Go Get Another One TheMastersNemesis Aug 2013 #1
Yep, because as we all all know there is an infinite supply of jobs out there n/t n2doc Aug 2013 #2
I think they mean TBF Aug 2013 #3
I believe they think there are tons of jobs "going begging to be filled" n2doc Aug 2013 #4
Maximum unemployment rates - TBF Aug 2013 #6
Thanks TBF for the link. Doing a little analysis . . . aggiesal Aug 2013 #29
Nice analysis - TBF Aug 2013 #44
jobs go begging kardonb Aug 2013 #28
Can you name a specific company that's having a shortage? JoeyT Aug 2013 #37
bullshit. a lot of folks dont' want hard physical labor that pays minimum wage -- but they are HiPointDem Aug 2013 #40
Millions of jobs? Tens of Millions? n2doc Aug 2013 #47
That "worker shortage in IT" bullshit is always preparatory to asking for more H1B visas. LongTomH Aug 2013 #54
another IT person looking LittleGirl Aug 2013 #64
Right wingers say this: treestar Aug 2013 #92
so sayeth an ex-employer of mine, and I took his advice wordpix Aug 2013 #15
Problem with independent contracting is retaining work. haele Aug 2013 #30
waitress pay in georgia is 2.13$ an hour roguevalley Aug 2013 #82
That's pretty much the pay in all states . . . aggiesal Aug 2013 #93
they pay more in Alaska. its all too sad roguevalley Aug 2013 #94
And what's the plan from the top? woo me with science Aug 2013 #5
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2013 #7
This is going to hurt more than you think dman85 Aug 2013 #10
What a bunch of whooey n2doc Aug 2013 #11
In most businesses, the overhead comes from materials Gore1FL Aug 2013 #13
Materials? Munificence Aug 2013 #18
Not my experience. n/t Gore1FL Aug 2013 #19
Mine neither. I'm a small biz owner in IL and the LOWEST wage I START is $10/hr riderinthestorm Aug 2013 #58
You are an exception KentuckyWoman Aug 2013 #74
Who can live on $10//hr ????? feathateathn Aug 2013 #88
Good thing he doesn't live on that. He's retired and only works for me @ 10 hours/wk riderinthestorm Aug 2013 #91
It's a massive increase. dman85 Aug 2013 #46
Paying people livable wages in the past do not lead to this. Gore1FL Aug 2013 #62
Completely wrong. Zoeisright Aug 2013 #69
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2013 #79
I employed home helpers for my mother for 4+ years at mostly $20/hr wordpix Aug 2013 #20
Sorry to say, but facts don't support your conclusions . . . aggiesal Aug 2013 #23
I'm sorry but did you even read the OP? ljm2002 Aug 2013 #24
Why not higher then? dman85 Aug 2013 #43
Specious argument there... ljm2002 Aug 2013 #45
Deflection.... dman85 Aug 2013 #48
No it was not deflection... ljm2002 Aug 2013 #50
again....why not more? dman85 Aug 2013 #57
why not slave labor? less labor expense is better, yes? maybe pay to work? tiny elvis Aug 2013 #61
Typical....deflection after deflection. dman85 Aug 2013 #63
You know, you haven't addressed my real life, real time example in post #58 riderinthestorm Aug 2013 #65
why not 200%? why not minus 100%? tiny elvis Aug 2013 #66
and typical of whom? tiny elvis Aug 2013 #67
for whom is deflection typical? nt tiny elvis Aug 2013 #68
Yes, even higher minimum wages would be even better for most of the economy. fasttense Aug 2013 #78
Exactly! feathateathn Aug 2013 #90
I think you're in the wrong place. Zoeisright Aug 2013 #70
I see no problem. sulphurdunn Aug 2013 #80
Bullshit. Notafraidtoo Aug 2013 #55
Washington State made a "dramatic and significant hike in the minimum wage" to $9.19 per hour. lumberjack_jeff Aug 2013 #85
Heeey, waitaminit... pinboy3niner Aug 2013 #8
A recent study shows that it's impossible to live on minimum wage AndyA Aug 2013 #9
"I think Congress should be paid minimum wage, by the hour" - Excellent idea wordpix Aug 2013 #22
Unfortunately, congress can not change their salary . . . aggiesal Aug 2013 #25
True, they can't change their salary THAT THEY RECEIVE FROM US. AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #27
How convenient. bvar22 Aug 2013 #49
Democratic economy summit. MOAR COSTCOS! Safetykitten Aug 2013 #12
This is where the righties are coming from... malthaussen Aug 2013 #14
+1 leftstreet Aug 2013 #16
+1000 At the Jobs for Justice Rally in KC last week, I heard from fast food workers, including.... LongTomH Aug 2013 #52
Why isn't minimum wage based on cost of living B2G Aug 2013 #17
Great point. dman85 Aug 2013 #59
This message was self-deleted by its author valerief Aug 2013 #21
Maybe it would help to stop signing let's-send-jobs-to-foreign-countries "free trade" agreements. AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #26
STOP IT! woo me with science Aug 2013 #31
Actually, things are utterly hopeless. But I don't care. AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #34
Well, I meant helplessness re: the things you mentioned, woo me with science Aug 2013 #36
I am up for a job in IT and listed $55k as my salary requirement. Myrina Aug 2013 #32
You are in IT? When he seeks to hire a H-1B replacment, I hope that you have a contract with a AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #35
I know, right? Myrina Aug 2013 #39
Whatever you do, always work towards getting a written employment contract with a clause AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #41
And five years earlier they were earning $70K or more. Egalitarian Thug Aug 2013 #53
Yes, this is the problem Yo_Mama Aug 2013 #33
They won't HAVE to raise prices, they WANT to raise prices. . . . aggiesal Aug 2013 #38
They most certainly will have to raise prices Yo_Mama Aug 2013 #72
Currently . . . aggiesal Aug 2013 #86
The profiteers won't be happy til working people once again live like this HereSince1628 Aug 2013 #51
I fully support a living wage for fast food workers Bake Aug 2013 #42
I know a guy who is a supervisor for an elevator company here in Vegas.... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #56
This is the source of so many problems shenmue Aug 2013 #60
but then they wouldnt be desperate and scared sigmasix Aug 2013 #76
we got soul on the dole, we don't take no shit from the benefit Divine Discontent Aug 2013 #71
AND the rent is too damn high!!! nt kelliekat44 Aug 2013 #73
. blkmusclmachine Aug 2013 #75
Workers need to stop waiting around for politicians to flick a crumb off their table. Skeeter Barnes Aug 2013 #77
my my, the chamber of commerce types are out in droves. mopinko Aug 2013 #81
americans need to understand this duality pasto76 Aug 2013 #83
Maybe if they were paid better, they would n2doc Aug 2013 #84
kick woo me with science Aug 2013 #87
A low minimum wage would be okay if it was a starting point. lumberjack_jeff Aug 2013 #89
 

TheMastersNemesis

(10,602 posts)
1. If You Don't Like The Pay On The Job You Have You Are Free To Go Get Another One
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:46 AM
Aug 2013

That's the GOP conservative fundy church line.

TBF

(32,017 posts)
3. I think they mean
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:49 AM
Aug 2013

you are supposed to travel overseas to find it ... be happy with your .25 per hour!

n2doc

(47,953 posts)
4. I believe they think there are tons of jobs "going begging to be filled"
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:51 AM
Aug 2013

here in the states. They take every news report of some worker shortage in IT or for farm workers, and magnify it. They think that Unemployment Insurance is making people too lazy to 'werk hard'.

TBF

(32,017 posts)
6. Maximum unemployment rates -
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:57 AM
Aug 2013

Found this via a google search: http://jobsearch.about.com/od/unemployment/a/weekly-unemployment-benefits.htm

If they think these are good weekly rates (and these are the maximums for each state) then the pay indeed is too damn low.

aggiesal

(8,907 posts)
29. Thanks TBF for the link. Doing a little analysis . . .
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 01:44 PM
Aug 2013

Last edited Wed Aug 7, 2013, 05:02 PM - Edit history (1)

Below is the list with the states paying the most at the top,
and the states paying the least at the bottom.
Also, [font color=blue]Blue[/font] for the state that voted for Obama in 2012
and [font color=red]Red[/font] for the state that didn't.

You'll notice that the top 10 states and top 13 of 15 are all blue.
Also that the bottom 5 states, and bottom 12 of 15 are all red.

[font color=blue] 1 Massachusetts $653 Blue[/font]
[font color=blue] 2 Washington $604 Blue[/font]
[font color=blue] 3 NewJersey $600 Blue[/font]
[font color=blue] 4 Minnesota $585 Blue[/font]
[font color=blue] 5 Pennsylvania $573 Blue[/font]
[font color=blue] 6 RhodeIsland $566 Blue[/font]
[font color=blue] 7 Hawaii $560 Blue[/font]
[font color=blue] 8 Connecticut $555 Blue[/font]
[font color=blue] 9 Ohio $524 Blue[/font]
[font color=blue] 10 Oregon $507 Blue[/font]
[font color=red] 11 North Dakota $470 Red[/font]
[font color=blue] 12 Iowa $459 Blue[/font]
[font color=red] 13 Arkansas $457 Red[/font]
[font color=blue] 14 New Mexico $455 Blue[/font]
[font color=blue] 15 Colorado $454 Blue[/font]
[font color=red] 16 Utah $451 Red[/font]
[font color=blue] 17 California $450 Blue[/font]
[font color=red] 18 Montana $446 Red[/font]
[font color=red] 19 Alaska $441 Red[/font]
[font color=blue] 20 New Hampshire $427 Blue[/font]
[font color=red] 21 Texas $426 Red[/font]
[font color=blue] 22 Vermont $425 Blue[/font]
[font color=red] 23 West Virginia $424 Red[/font]
[font color=red] 24 Kansas $420 Red[/font]
[font color=red] 25 Kentucky $415 Red[/font]
[font color=blue] 26 Maryland $410 Blue[/font]
[font color=blue] 27 New York $405 Blue[/font]
[font color=blue] 28 Nevada $398 Blue[/font]
[font color=red] 29 Indiana $390 Red[/font]
[font color=red] 30 Wyoming $387 Red[/font]
[font color=blue] 31 Illinois $385 Blue[/font]
[font color=blue] 32 Virginia $378 Blue[/font]
[font color=blue] 33 Maine $372 Blue[/font]
[font color=red] 34 Oklahoma $368 Red[/font]
[font color=blue] 35 Wisconsin $363 Blue[/font]
[font color=blue] 36 Michigan $362 Blue[/font]
[font color=red] 37 North Carolina $350 Red[/font]
[font color=red] 38 Nebraska $348 Red[/font]
[font color=red] 39 Idaho $343 Red[/font]
[font color=blue] 40 Delaware $330 Blue[/font]
[font color=red] 41 Georgia $330 Red[/font]
[font color=red] 42 South Carolina $326 Red[/font]
[font color=red] 43 Missouri $320 Red[/font]
[font color=red] 44 South Dakota $295 Red[/font]
[font color=blue] 45 Florida $275 Blue[/font]
[font color=red] 46 Tennessee $275 Red[/font]
[font color=red] 47 Alabama $265 Red[/font]
[font color=red] 48 Louisiana $258 Red[/font]
[font color=red] 49 Arizona $240 Red[/font]
[font color=red] 50 Mississippi $235 Red[/font]

TBF

(32,017 posts)
44. Nice analysis -
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 03:29 PM
Aug 2013

Wisconsin (my original state) and Michigan are dropping in so many ways. They were once powerful labor states where families could make a living. Now with industry leaving they are slipping. Wisconsin still has the paper mills (but it also has Scott Walker who is determined to run that state into the ground), and we know about Detroit ...

 

kardonb

(777 posts)
28. jobs go begging
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 01:34 PM
Aug 2013

not in the construction business in AZ . But a lot of folks don't want hard , physical labor , even tho it pays well .

JoeyT

(6,785 posts)
37. Can you name a specific company that's having a shortage?
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 02:42 PM
Aug 2013

Because every time I've ever heard a company griping about not being able to fill jobs it's because they're trying to pay half or less the going rate for the field.

Construction is one of the fields where raising the pay will pretty much guarantee you more workers than you can deal with. Most of us are used to jumping around anyway.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
40. bullshit. a lot of folks dont' want hard physical labor that pays minimum wage -- but they are
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 02:51 PM
Aug 2013

forced to do it.

don't tell me those jobs go begging, i see them filled with a steady stream of people who are forced to do them for lack of anything better and worked like dogs, then spit out.

n2doc

(47,953 posts)
47. Millions of jobs? Tens of Millions?
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 03:57 PM
Aug 2013

And what about the many who can't physically do really demanding construction work? Let them starve?

LongTomH

(8,636 posts)
54. That "worker shortage in IT" bullshit is always preparatory to asking for more H1B visas.
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 04:59 PM
Aug 2013

The last year before I retired, I kept getting calls from headhunters; they usually asked: "What kind of visa you on, Thomas?" The accent gave away the fact they were calling from somewhere like Bangalore, India.

Actually, I still get calls and emails; the name on the email is always Indian.

I even got to one phone interview; no callback.

These companies know they need to say they've interviewed American workers and can't find anyone with "the needed skillset." I had 17+ years in TPF programming and did my best to keep up with changes in the industry. "Not the right skillset", my ass!!!!!

LittleGirl

(8,280 posts)
64. another IT person looking
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 07:00 PM
Aug 2013

for work. I have 20+ yrs experience so it's b.s. saying that they can't find people to do the jobs. They can't find people that will work for peanuts with no benefits like sick pay, health care or vacation pay.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
92. Right wingers say this:
Fri Aug 9, 2013, 05:56 PM
Aug 2013

If there are not enough jobs to go around, some people should move to another location where there are jobs. Or, wait for it, you should "create your own job." You just get some capital and go into business. Voila!

No amount of reasoning changes this view. There is always a job. It may be true for them, so they think it must be so for everyone.

wordpix

(18,652 posts)
15. so sayeth an ex-employer of mine, and I took his advice
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:16 PM
Aug 2013

I now have less "security" and worse health insurance but more money as an independent contractor.

haele

(12,640 posts)
30. Problem with independent contracting is retaining work.
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 01:55 PM
Aug 2013

It's a good gig if you can sustain it, but similar to management jobs, there's only so much sustainable independent contractor work.
And if you aren't a niche specialist, there's always someone trying to break into the business who will undercut you and get your customers - no matter how good your reputation and work is.
Without a serious cushion for the first few years (successful working spouse or savings in the upper five to six figure at least), you can end up pawning your tools just to keep the lights on or feed your kids between jobs.

I've known too many technical/engineering contractors that have, after five or ten years of chasing contracts, had to either throw in the towel and get into more secure work.
Most either take a job at an established corporation for lower wages or get together and try to incorporate to protect themselves and get the capital investments to keep going over the lean times. (Small businesses that start like this have their own pitfalls and from experiance, usually ends up with the business becoming a subsidiary/subcontractor to a bigger corporation that suckes the profits off the top, or in bankruptcy to all partners, because one of the partners is stupid with money and uses the company as an ATM).

But again, if you can survive long enough to make a consistant living off independent contracting, great.

I couldn't, similar to most people who get into contracting go in with the usual little financial cushion (on average starting with $5K - $20K savings, equity loan, or gift; and if lucky, an established customer base, vehicle, and tool collection).
Sadly for most contractors, for the first few years, contracting income is the same (or less) than hobby jobs; pretty much just a bit more than it takes to cover the expenses one has just getting and doing the work.
Not everyone has the talent or temprement to last that period out and build a stronger base or take the financial hits.

So for those many people who need to have consistancy in life; to pay bills, put a roof over the head, food on the table, and raise kids, and "grow the economy&quot as it were), there needs to be a significant number of reliable jobs with steady wages that are compensitory for the skills and labor these people are giving the employer in trade for those wages.

Haele

aggiesal

(8,907 posts)
93. That's pretty much the pay in all states . . .
Sat Aug 10, 2013, 12:56 PM
Aug 2013

because the restaurant industry agreed not to oppose minimum wage
increases as long as it doesn't apply to the restaurant jobs where tips
are involved.

This is a huge scam.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
5. And what's the plan from the top?
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:55 AM
Aug 2013

A new Grand Bargain of Austerity,
the Trans-Pacific Job and Wage-Killing Agreement,

...and mass spying and targeting of journalists, whistleblowers, and protesters to ensure the people cannot fight back.

This is your government under bipartisan corporate rule.

Response to n2doc (Original post)

dman85

(14 posts)
10. This is going to hurt more than you think
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 11:42 AM
Aug 2013

I'm a long time lurker, but I think someone should provide a little criticism on this topic.

A dramatic and significant hike in minimum wage is only going to make life even more difficult for those with little to no job skills and their employers. We all like to think that this will only hurt large companies like McDonald's or Kroger....but this is going to put their locally owned, smaller competitors at an even greater disadvantage while reducing the demand and increasing the competitive pressure on people seeking low skilled jobs.

I don't see how you can honestly claim to be looking out for the 'little guy' and support a significant hike in minimum wage. The larger companies have a better chance of absorbing these costs and finding efficiencies and cost cutting elsewhere.

I'd also like to point out...a $4 or $5 hike per hour is an even larger hurdle for both employers and employees in areas with less spending power. It would also be a bitter pill to swallow for politicians who are desperately trying to decrease the unemployment rate - and I predict a significant hike will find opposition in both parties.

I agree that it's impossible to live off the current minimum wage, but I think a better solution should be to encourage more training and trade school programs for our rapidly evolving economy. Our public education system is not meeting the needs of our nation right now.

n2doc

(47,953 posts)
11. What a bunch of whooey
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:01 PM
Aug 2013

People and businesses in higher min wages states survive just fine. More pay = more money to spend on goods, and a healthier and more productive workforce.

Just where do you think these jobs that need 'training and trade school' are? The vast majority of jobs being created now are in now skill retailing. You simply can't expect to train a bunch of welders, truck drivers and office staff and expect this economy to absorb tens of millions of them. It's like Tom Friedman telling us that we all need to go out and found our own tech companies and become millionaires.

Gore1FL

(21,104 posts)
13. In most businesses, the overhead comes from materials
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:11 PM
Aug 2013

If a company cannot stay in business while providing pay and benefits to it's employees, it needs to re-evaluate it's business model.

Munificence

(493 posts)
18. Materials?
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:26 PM
Aug 2013

Labor typically consumes most overhead. It's nothing for labor cost to run about 60%-75% of revenue.
Materials are very low on the grand scheme of things. Materials are typically "cheap". Sure there are some exceptions on materials and on labor, but generally speaking "labor" is the largest expense.

A typical business that "produces" something needs to see around $100K in revenue per employee, this should cover labor, other overhead, taxes, etc and set you up to see about 10% profit, however that may vary from 5% to 20%..is according to what all you have going on.

A lot of "small" mom and pop type operations may use a 30-30-30 type scenario where materials, labor, and additional overhead are all 30% leaving a 10% profit margin.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
58. Mine neither. I'm a small biz owner in IL and the LOWEST wage I START is $10/hr
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 05:31 PM
Aug 2013

Most of the staff earns much more. And this is ag work too....

This has earned me a very happy employee pool (no turnover for going on 5 years), and extremely happy clients who can rely on top performance from the staff at my biz. I have always had more work than we can take in and have a long waiting list.

Its foolish and short sighted to think you can stiff employees and run a productive small business. The whole process of hiring and training a new employee, along with the extra supervision I must provide during their 6 month probation period is a huge hassle.

KentuckyWoman

(6,679 posts)
74. You are an exception
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 11:14 PM
Aug 2013

Most everyone I know works for someone who employs under 20 people. Some of those employers always did openly treat employees like costs instead of investments. Now even the ones who used to generally treat workers like valued assets have turned into selfish little jerks who quit honoring matching 401k, shifted much of medical care costs to workers while also demanding pay cuts and even taking away comp time...that costs them nothing.

I don't understand how a few years of hard times....valued workers willing to take less pay and double the work to keep the business going and when the worst is over the same people who previously treated workers like valued assets are treating workers like undeserving moochers.

feathateathn

(15 posts)
88. Who can live on $10//hr ?????
Fri Aug 9, 2013, 08:47 AM
Aug 2013

Seriously, how can anyone raise a family on that?? Based on a 40hr work week, 50 weeks per year that's $20k per year pre-tax. There's no way someone could raise a family of four, own a house, own reliable transportation (one vehicle per adult), pay for college for his kids, pay for good medical coverage, pay for good clothing, good food, entertainment and retirement savings.

No I am not joking.

If you're answer is going to be "that's a starting wage", that's B.S. A human being who works a full day has a right to a wage that will support all of the above, regardless of his stage in his career. You as an employer have a moral obligation to provide it. If you "can't afford it" than you should re-visit your business model.

Look, I'm new to this forum. A lot of the ideas I see here are great but I'm distressed at the pragmatism I see. Income inequality is decried, but the proposed answers just nip around at the edges. Rounding error.

My proposal: Universal Wage

That's right, not "minimum wage". Not "living wage". Universal Wage.

Everyone gets the same wage, regardless of job title, experience, etc. Pure equality.

Anything less is pure greed and pure evil. Why should the boss be paid anything more than the janitor? They both work hard; the janitor probably harder than the boss.

Go ahead and list the reasons this "can't work". It certainly can if enforced at the point of a gun. Those who won't willingly go along will if coerced sufficiently. There certainly is precedent. Failure to pay taxes or any other of a host of obligations eventually leads to coercion by the point of a gun. The inequality in this country has come to a point where the same coercive power of the government is needed.

But, no one will start businesses, be doctors, etc of there is no chance of greater financial reward!!

Yes they will, if they are forced.

Here's how it would work: Children would be screened and tested at an early age for talents and aptitudes. Career paths would be set by a government panel. At no point would the individual have any choice in the matter; the government experts certainly know better for him.

As far as wages, it is a simple matter of dividing the GDP by the number of working individuals and giving each their equal slice of the pie. The ultimate profit sharing plan!

But the GDP will plummet if there is no profit incentive!!

Not if enforced by the point of a gun. Productivity will be strictly monitored and maintained.

All motivation for retail profit will disappear and prices for goods will plummet! Everything becomes more affordable.

Eventually, when people realize that we're all the same, currency can be eliminated. Everyone takes only what he needs and produces to the best of his ability. It can and will work.


 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
91. Good thing he doesn't live on that. He's retired and only works for me @ 10 hours/wk
Fri Aug 9, 2013, 05:54 PM
Aug 2013

He does the gardening and handyman tasks. I give him absolute flexibility and he comes whenever he can each week. He's worked for me for 7 years and makes $15/hr now.

He's illiterate, speaks very little english, worked 40 years in a steady factory job. Raised 3 lovely children all of whom went to college. I credit him with being our "leader" of the staff. My other guys revere him, my clients love him even though most of them have trouble communicating - he just radiates dignity and good humour (which he has in spades). I trust him implicitly. I have no idea who I will ever find to replace him if he decides to stop working for me.

Of course I pay him well. I don't want him to leave. Neither does anyone else.

I agree with most of what you say. Our "minimum" wage is disgusting and needs revision immediately. I'm not so sure of the rest of your post but I AM sure to say welcome to DU!

dman85

(14 posts)
46. It's a massive increase.
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 03:52 PM
Aug 2013

Labor costs jumping over 50% in some areas (with 0% increase in productivity) will not easily absorbed by any company dependent on low skill labor....much less low volume businesses.

The price of consumer goods would go up, undermining the spending power of the very entry level low skill labor discussed in this thread.

Response to dman85 (Reply #46)

wordpix

(18,652 posts)
20. I employed home helpers for my mother for 4+ years at mostly $20/hr
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:32 PM
Aug 2013

These were mostly women who had no college education or professional skills (a couple were in school), except perhaps a CNA course. Our family paid $20/hr. for day help and $15-20 for night help (mother was mostly sleeping at night). Everything was on the books so we also paid FICA taxes every quarter. It was extremely expensive.

OTOH, we had excellent, caring care givers who stayed on through the years, which was a huge benefit so we could continue our own work and not worry that our mother was in a bad situation. Moral of the story: you get what you pay for. If you want to pay people zip and they are good workers and honest people, they will leave soon after they start b/c they'll find something better and better paying.

You say you want more training and trade schools - good idea but that costs money, too. One of my seniors wanted to apply to cosmetic school and it was $10K/year tuition (which she didn't have) so she didn't go, continuing the cycle of her family's poverty.
'
I would like to see vocational ed. return to high schools, where it's mostly been eradicated. Maybe you'd like to help in this effort?

Also your argument about a "$4 or $5 hike per hour" is bullshit. No one I know has proposed such a large hike, although it would be nice so people would have enough to live on, just barely.

aggiesal

(8,907 posts)
23. Sorry to say, but facts don't support your conclusions . . .
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:58 PM
Aug 2013

When ever there is a pay increase, whether is a minimum wage increase,
or union contract or . . .
the economy in the community always gets better.
That's because when the lower and middle class worker gets more money
they spend almost 100%, which stimulates the local economy.

Prices rarely go up. (Look at Papa John's, when they had to implement
Obamacare, their pizza prices went up maybe a dime!) This only dips
into their profits.

When the wealthy class get tax breaks to increase their wealth holdings,
they don't spend that increase, instead they either bank it or invest it,
which doesn't help the lower or middle class worker.

The theory that works, is to give the money to the lower and middle
class worker, and everyone benefits.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
24. I'm sorry but did you even read the OP?
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 01:00 PM
Aug 2013

You say:

"a better solution should be to encourage more training and trade school programs for our rapidly evolving economy"

From the OP:

"over the past three decades, the U.S. economy has done a poor job of creating good middle-class jobs; five of the six fastest-growing job categories today pay less than the median wage"

Your assumption is that there are plenty of good middle class jobs to be had if only people retrain for those jobs. The reality is much different. For instance, about 25% of IT graduates cannot find a job in their field of training. This at the same time we are told we need more, not less, H1B candidates because of a shortage of IT workers.

The forces of the multinational corporations are arrayed against us and that is a fact. If only we had politicians in Washington who cared a whit. But apart from a very few, that is not the case. They are in the service of the monied interests.

Anyway. As others have pointed out, pay everyone more and people have more spending money and the economy improves. This has been shown time and time again. Similarly, government stimulus and hiring when the economy is in the doldrums works, and has been shown to work; while austerity does not work, and has been shown not to work. Yet which policy do our esteemed Congress critters pursue? We all know the answer. It's the policy that is preferred by the big money boys, always and ever.

Corrupt to the core.

dman85

(14 posts)
43. Why not higher then?
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 03:27 PM
Aug 2013

If raising the minimum wage always improves the economy, why not raise it to $30 per hour? How about $100,000 per year?

I suppose you see nothing wrong with this if you can't see any problems with raising minimum wage by over 50% in some areas.

It's that much more incentive to automate, eliminate positions, or raise prices...contributing to unemployment and increasing inflationary pressures.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
45. Specious argument there...
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 03:44 PM
Aug 2013

...if someone thinks the limit should be higher, you extrapolate that to mean there should be no limit? Puhleeze.

I would like to see a guaranteed minimum income, enough for the basics, along with universal single payer health care. I honestly believe these policies would improve the economy and would not place an undue burden on taxpayers.

First: universal health care as practiced in other countries, costs less overall and has better outcomes than health care here in the US. Sure, we have the most cutting edge health care -- for the wealthy and the well insured. But in this Best Of All Possible Countries Now Or Ever, you would think we could do more for the general population. And we could save money while doing it! The ONLY downside is higher taxes BUT that would be offset by (a) no health insurance premiums, (b) no health care costs. It would also remove the link between employer and health insurance, which really makes no sense from a logical perspective -- this would free employees from feeling shackled to a job if they have a pre-existing condition, and it would also free businesses to concentrate on their core competencies and become more competitive on the world stage.

Second: a guaranteed minimum income would do wonders to address the homeless issue among other things. Also it would mean people would not be ruled by fear. In older and less "developed" societies, people are not discarded like they are in our modern societies. But here, it is frightening indeed to know you may be one paycheck away from disaster and destitution. Also, a guaranteed minimum wage would (I predict) reduce the crime rate substantially. Therefore, I strongly believe this would be a net savings for the government, while providing a much more civilized experience for the citizens of this country.

Now I know what you're thinking: (a) a guaranteed income would just reward the lazy and remove incentives to work. Well, no. Most of us would want more than just the basic minimum. But if someone cannot find work, through no fault of their own, at least they would not be relegated to the societal trash heap. (b) people would misuse their funds for drugs etc. Well, yes, some would. So? We cannot micromanage people's lives but we can certainly make policies that are to the overall benefit of the population.

Anyway this is already long but I hope I have answered your question.

dman85

(14 posts)
48. Deflection....
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 04:06 PM
Aug 2013

What makes a 50%+ increase a great thing but a $20 minimum wage unreasonable?

Is there a limit to the minimum wage? If so, isn't there a point were diminishing returns would occur (in some areas earlier than others)?

Some of the people in this thread are claiming that a raise in minimum wage always helps the economy with no repercussions or consequences. I'm simply trying to point out the very consequences that will come from a massive increase in minimum wage nationwide are going to hurt the very people it's supposed to help. I know the intentions are good here, but we have to examine how the market will react to this and who that will hurt.

This isn't a small 10% or 15% hike. Minimum wage in much of the country is still less than $7.50 per hour.

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
50. No it was not deflection...
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 04:35 PM
Aug 2013

...you made an absurd statement about why not just let it be unlimited. Now you complain because I called that out, and then responded to your remark "I suppose you would support that too" by telling you what I do support, which goes way beyond minimum wage.

We live in an economy where not everyone can even get work. Where middle class jobs continue to disappear. Where the bulk of new jobs added during the recovery are low-paying and many are part-time (which translates to lower overall salary and no benefits).

But back to minimum wage. Historically, minimum wage is at a very low rate. There is plenty of evidence to suggest it should be made higher. I think the minimum wage should be at least doubled as it is at a very low rate right now and cannot support even a minimal lifestyle. Here is some information on the historical rates from the Center for Economic Policy and Research:

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage1-2012-03.pdf

It is coming up on three years since the last increase in the federal minimum wage to $7.25 per hour in July 2009. By all of the most commonly used benchmarks –
inflation, average wages, and productivity – the minimum wage is now far below its historical level. By all of these benchmarks, the value of the minimum wage peaked in 1968. If the minimum wage in that year had been indexed to the official Consumer Price Index (CPIU), the minimum wage in 2012 (using the Congressional Budget Office’s estimates for inflation in 2012) would be at $10.52. Even if we applied the current methodology (CPIURS) for calculating inflation – which generally shows a lower rate of inflation than the older measure – to the whole period since 1968, the 2012 value of the minimum wage would be $9.22.

Using wages as a benchmark, in 1968 the federal minimum stood at 53 percent of the average production worker earnings. During much of the 1960s, the minimum wage was close to 50 percent of the same wage benchmark. If the minimum wage were at 50 percent of the production worker wage in 2012 (again, using CBO projections to produce a full year 2012 estimate), the federal minimum would be $10.01 per hour.


Here's a study from the University of Vermont dispelling the myth that a minimum wage increase means fewer jobs:

http://www.uvm.edu/~vlrs/doc/min_wage.htm

Card and Krueger compared unemployment and wages in New Jersey and Pennsylvania. In that comparison they focused on the fast food industry (the leading employers of low wage earners and an industry that enforces the minimum wage). The Comparison of New Jersey and Pennsylvania indicated, "employment actually expanded in New Jersey relative to Pennsylvania, where the minimum wage was constant" (Card and Krueger 1995, p. 66). In additional studies that they conducted using data from other states Card and Krueger actually found a positive correlation between a higher minimum wage and employment. Table 2 presents the findings of each of the studies they ran.


...

In addition to those findings, Card and Krueger found:

A large "spike" in wage distribution at the minimum wage level. This "spike" indicates a large percentage of the work force is minimum wage earners.
A "ripple effect" that consists of wage increases of non-minimum wage earners from those employers who fix wages above the minimum wage.
An absence of evidence that employers reduce benefits to compensate for the higher wage.
A low utilization of teens in the work force.


...

Card and Krueger have received some criticism for their study from a number of conservative think tanks that published their commentaries in opinion-editorial fashion rather than in peer-reviewed journals. Critics claim that the Princeton Study looked specifically at minimum wage issues in the fast food industry, which leaves out a significant population of the minimum wage work force. They also claim that the Card and Krueger data is inconsistent with the actual payroll records of the Burger King franchises; Card and Kreuger chose to rely on the Bureau of Labor Statistics for their data. Richard Berman of the Employment Policies Institute also disagreed with the methodology of the Card and Kruger study. He argues that the analysis should have focused on the number of hours worked instead of the number of employees (Berman 1998). Despite the claims of these critics, there has been no peer-reviewed research to date that contradicts the findings of Card and Kreuger or supports the claim that an increase in the minimum wage increases unemployment.


From a simple fairness perspective, I would have to say that as we see corporations making record profits and fatter fat cats than we've ever seen before in history -- given that, it seems only fair to let full time workers make a living wage. I would actually prefer a policy of a living wage rather than a minimum wage. In any case, I disagree with your premise that raising the minimum wage will hurt workers. On the contrary, it will help all of us.

BTW, welcome to DU.

dman85

(14 posts)
57. again....why not more?
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 05:31 PM
Aug 2013

If a 50%+ increase in minimum wages will be great for everyone, why not raise it 100%? 200%? 300%?

Is more not better? There's no consequences, right?

tiny elvis

(979 posts)
61. why not slave labor? less labor expense is better, yes? maybe pay to work?
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 06:28 PM
Aug 2013

when reductio ad absurdum can go both ways, then it is not applicable

300%
is $22 an hour absurd to you?

dman85

(14 posts)
63. Typical....deflection after deflection.
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 06:57 PM
Aug 2013

It's pretty bad that we can't even consider the consequences to a massive hike in minimum wage.

I'll repost in case it's not clear.

If a 50%+ hike is so awesome, flawless, and without any drawbacks or consequences....then why not 100% or 200%?

You can attack the messenger or play semantics but we all know why my question won't get answered.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
65. You know, you haven't addressed my real life, real time example in post #58
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 07:09 PM
Aug 2013

I pay far above minimum wage and my small business thrives because of it. The business owner across the street, doing the EXACT same thing, pays her employees minimum wage and she can't keep good helpers, or clients, because of it.

Her business is in a catastrophic state compared to mine.

Most small business owners I know experience the exact same dynamic as my neighbor and I, regardless of their enterprise.

Franchise owners however are a different animal and I believe they, and their corporate masters, PLUS the large corps need calling out.

Just don't blame this all on small business owners until you actually have real evidence supporting your position.

tiny elvis

(979 posts)
66. why not 200%? why not minus 100%?
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 07:15 PM
Aug 2013

your reductio question was answered
it does not apply
you are making declarations without foundation
i must assume you are only referencing the conclusions of your chosen authorities

would it be hard to cite your authorities on economics?
might that bring you embarrassment in this environment?

tiny elvis

(979 posts)
67. and typical of whom?
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 07:36 PM
Aug 2013

you do not seem to know what semantic play is
its assertion is not a generic dismissal

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
78. Yes, even higher minimum wages would be even better for most of the economy.
Thu Aug 8, 2013, 07:22 AM
Aug 2013

But the reason minimum wage isn't higher, and will never be a very good wage, is that we are in a capitalist economic system. Unless you get rid of capitalism, wages will always be pushed lower and lower. There is NO built-in upward pressure on wages for working people because capitalism does NOT allow for it. Capitalism requires the downward spiral of most workers' wages.

It's unions and worker organizations who put pressure on employers to increase wages but as soon as they turn their back on the subject, or they lose power or influence, wages drop. That's what is happening today, wages are dropping because our unions and worker organizations are very weak (though prices are not dropping which goes to show you the 2 are NOT related).

No matter how high minimum wage is pushed, eventually it will fall back down to starvation pay under capitalism.

feathateathn

(15 posts)
90. Exactly!
Fri Aug 9, 2013, 12:54 PM
Aug 2013

See my reply #88.

Universal Wage is the answer to capitalism. Currency becomes merely a tool to make exchange necessary goods and services rather than something to be hoarded.

I see a lot of support around here for Universal Healthcare. Universal Wage is an even more fundamental right!

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
80. I see no problem.
Thu Aug 8, 2013, 07:48 AM
Aug 2013

Endlessly raising CEO salaries has ushered in a golden age of prosperity for yacht builders and luxury hotel owners in Dubai. The same should work for kicker boat builders and Motel 6 owners in the US. Until the junk food industry can buy little robo associates cheaper than it can hire people, I must consider the automation argument a bit of a red herring.

Notafraidtoo

(402 posts)
55. Bullshit.
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 05:08 PM
Aug 2013

Tell that to Australia troll, they prove that everything you say is wrong and that either you are a right wing troll, paid troll or yet another victim of Milton Friedman right wing trickle down propaganda which dominates American media.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
85. Washington State made a "dramatic and significant hike in the minimum wage" to $9.19 per hour.
Thu Aug 8, 2013, 11:01 AM
Aug 2013

That nearly $2 per hour differential hasn't hurt overall employment relative to the $7.25/hour states.

Raising wages 20% might increase the cost of goods sold in the average fast food restaurant by 3% or so, but the fact that many if not most of your customers are now 20% wealthier, and can now afford your products, more than makes up the difference.

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2013-02.pdf

AndyA

(16,993 posts)
9. A recent study shows that it's impossible to live on minimum wage
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 11:38 AM
Aug 2013

Even in the least expensive county in the country, it cannot be done. They study indicated the living conditions on minimum wage weren't even modest.

I think Congress should be paid minimum wage, by the hour, as that's apparently what they believe is necessary to earn a living in the United States today, so let them do it and see how they like it. With as little as they work, they'll have to depend on the money they get under the table to survive. Corrupt F*ckers.

wordpix

(18,652 posts)
22. "I think Congress should be paid minimum wage, by the hour" - Excellent idea
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:51 PM
Aug 2013

Now I challenge any one congressperson to propose it.

aggiesal

(8,907 posts)
25. Unfortunately, congress can not change their salary . . .
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 01:11 PM
Aug 2013

They can vote on it, but it won't/can't take affect until the
next congress.

I agree that Congress should be paid only a living wage plus expenses.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
49. How convenient.
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 04:28 PM
Aug 2013

And some people say that our Congressmen are dumb.
They aren't dumb,
just self-serving,
and if a few crumbs fall off of their table, then
Good For YOU!

malthaussen

(17,175 posts)
14. This is where the righties are coming from...
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:13 PM
Aug 2013

... they still think, and say, that service jobs and other low-level jobs are "supposed to be entry level," and therefore not only don't need to pay a living wage, but shouldn't pay a living wage. They will not or cannot assimilate that there is no place for many of these workers to "move on to." The farthest they will go is to grumble that government interference discourages the "job creators," which is patently false.

I think Mr Obama shares some of this illusion, too. When he maunders on about how we have "lost faith in the American Dream," he appears not to recognize that the fault lies not in the dreamer, but in the dream that has died. (I'd love someday to write a book called "Field of Broken Dreams.&quot It's rather hard to believe that being a hard-working, law-abiding citizen will allow one to progress when all around we can see the falsity of that proposition.

The problem is also one of perspective, I think. For the most part, those who have had success have worked hard and obeyed the laws. If it worked for them, it must work for everybody. Ergo, those who do not find success must be neither hard-working nor law-abiding. To believe otherwise would be to give up the illusion that we have control over our lives, which lies at the heart of the Western mythos.

-- Mal

leftstreet

(36,101 posts)
16. +1
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:22 PM
Aug 2013

Very nicely stated

This especially:

The problem is also one of perspective, I think. For the most part, those who have had success have worked hard and obeyed the laws. If it worked for them, it must work for everybody. Ergo, those who do not find success must be neither hard-working nor law-abiding. To believe otherwise would be to give up the illusion that we have control over our lives, which lies at the heart of the Western mythos.


Which could account for some of the hostility in discussions such as these. As more people and their loved ones encounter layoffs, downsizing, retirement losses - things truly beyond their perceived control - the initial reactions are predictable...denial, mockery, anger

LongTomH

(8,636 posts)
52. +1000 At the Jobs for Justice Rally in KC last week, I heard from fast food workers, including....
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 04:52 PM
Aug 2013

A young man who has worked in fast food for 10 years. He has trouble putting food on his table; he frequently goes to his father's house for help. He also has painful broken molars that he can't afford to have fixed.

Another, older man talked of working in fast food for over 30 years. He works multiple jobs and still has trouble providing for his family.

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
17. Why isn't minimum wage based on cost of living
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:24 PM
Aug 2013

by region?

Because it would make too much sense?

dman85

(14 posts)
59. Great point.
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 05:37 PM
Aug 2013

Probably better handled on the state level.

Costs of living and spending power in this country vary significantly by region.

Response to n2doc (Original post)

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
26. Maybe it would help to stop signing let's-send-jobs-to-foreign-countries "free trade" agreements.
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 01:17 PM
Aug 2013

Maybe it would help to stop giving tax breaks to international corporations that send jobs to foreign countries.

Maybe it would help to stop allowing international corporations to send money to foreign countries.

How soon before the next disastrous "free trade" agreement is signed? Take a wild guess as to who is going to sign it.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
36. Well, I meant helplessness re: the things you mentioned,
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 02:24 PM
Aug 2013

but you probably understood that.

I am beyond rage and despair, but I don't think I can call it not caring yet. I don't know what these emotions are anymore. I honestly never in my life thought I would see my country come to this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023422158



Myrina

(12,296 posts)
32. I am up for a job in IT and listed $55k as my salary requirement.
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 01:59 PM
Aug 2013

I have everything - almost to the word - on my resume that the hiring manager is looking for.
HR came back and said the salary range is $40-50k.
I responded that if he wants everything on that job description, he better be prepared to pay at least $55k.
So I went ahead and interviewed and 3 other candidates also interviewed (apparently they are ok with the salary range).
HR called today to let me know he wants to hire me. I guess he realizes now what skill set low-balling will get him.

Sad thing is, I've been in this industry a long time and I know people in this role who were making $55k 10 years ago.
Wages are not keeping up with price increases everywhere else.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
35. You are in IT? When he seeks to hire a H-1B replacment, I hope that you have a contract with a
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 02:13 PM
Aug 2013

good severance clause.

Myrina

(12,296 posts)
39. I know, right?
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 02:51 PM
Aug 2013

I'm not a programmer/developer or Sys Admin, though ... more along the project/training side.
Apparently they still like natives for that.

Currently contracting at a huge student loan servicer (cough cough) and I'd say half the staff here are H-1B's.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
41. Whatever you do, always work towards getting a written employment contract with a clause
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 03:06 PM
Aug 2013

that provides a severance package. Do it with a friendly smile and say that it's just businesslike.

Also work to minimize any non-compete and nondisclosure provisions.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
53. And five years earlier they were earning $70K or more.
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 04:58 PM
Aug 2013

One of the hardest things about fighting this war is that so many of the people we fight for don't seem to understand that many of us are beyond the point where it matters to us. From a perspective of pure self interest, the best thing I could do would be to support the parasites and ignore the folks behind me. After all, I'm fine now and have the skills and understanding that ensure I will remain so for the rest of my life.

Someone here has a sig line that says, "Some days it's not even worth chewing through the restraints". That's the feeling that that steadily increases for us every day. Why bother? Our efforts are not appreciated and the idiocy just keeps on growing.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
33. Yes, this is the problem
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 02:09 PM
Aug 2013

It's fine to talk about a work ethic, but when you can't even get full-time work at minimum wage, what you wind up with is either a criminal ethic or a welfare ethic.

These jobs allow you to eat and not much else, and wages are going to have to rise because that's all the work people can get. As it is, taxpayers are just subsidizing all of these employers. This didn't happen back when it was teenagers filling these jobs, but it is happening now. Do we really want to pay Walmart's employees? What's in it for us?

I also think we should amend ACA to remove the incentive to force workers part-time. If you are employing some one 20 hours a week you should have to pay $1,000 instead of the $2,000 fine, etc.

Job training programs are not the solution when the jobs don't exist in the first place.

As for raising minimum wage, it should be done nationally and with a staggered implementation, so as not to shock the businesses with costs. Raising it gradually in increments allows everyone to adapt together, and in the long run, it will allow more people to shop at Walmart and eat at McDonald's, although it is true that these companies will have to raise prices.

aggiesal

(8,907 posts)
38. They won't HAVE to raise prices, they WANT to raise prices. . . .
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 02:46 PM
Aug 2013

Paying a living wage only dips into their profit.

They don't need or have to raise prices.
If they raise prices, it wouldn't be more then 5 cents.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
72. They most certainly will have to raise prices
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:30 PM
Aug 2013

Their revenue per employee is quite low:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=revenue+per+employee+amazon+walmart+safeway

Compare especially to Safeway. Much of Walmart's revenue derives from groceries, and there the profit margin is not good. If you look at Safeway's financials, page 20,
http://216.139.227.101/interactive/swy2012/
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=64607&p=irol-reportsannual

Compare to Walmart:
http://www.advfn.com/p.php?pid=financials&btn=annual_reports&mode=&symbol=NYSE%3AWMT
If you look at net income from total operations, their margin is 3.78%.
Safeway's is 2.19%.

You can see how little profit margin there really is in the grocery business.

However somewhat higher incomes for shoppers would mean more disposable income which would increase sales of items on which they have a better profit margin, so Walmart has a lot to gain from a higher national minimum wage.

Safeway is pretty much unionized, and they pay their employees better. Therefore their profit margins would be less affected by a minimum wage increase.

Anyway, using their cited revenue per employee ($213,800) and the margin I just calculated, their profit per employee is about $8,120.

If you raise the average employee wage and benefits cost $3 an hour, figuring 25 hours a week and 50 weeks in a year, it would cost $3,750 and cut their profit per employee to about $4,370. This is something of an underestimate, because I am assuming no full time employees. The cost of paying for medical benefits alone would eat up over 1/3rd of that, and Walmart's operating margin would drop to very close to Safeway's.

Walmart has higher facility overheads than stores like Safeway, so that is probably an unsafe operating margin. Walmart would have to raise its prices - but the effect would be somewhat offset by higher sales for higher margin items like clothing, toys, etc. However that only works for Walmart if the national minimum wage is increased.

aggiesal

(8,907 posts)
86. Currently . . .
Thu Aug 8, 2013, 04:47 PM
Aug 2013

Last edited Sat Aug 10, 2013, 12:35 PM - Edit history (2)

Walmart employs 2.2 million people.
http://www.hoovers.com/company-information/cs/company-profile.Wal-Mart_Stores_Inc.e82225a6f3c5e3bb.html

Worst case scenario, they pay only federal minimum wage of $7.25
and they have to increase to $12.50 living wage proposed in congress,
the payroll would increase $11,550,000 per hour.
Multiply $11,550,000 by 40 hour work week equals $462 MILLION.

In 2012, Walmart's gross profit was $119,950,000,000.
[Font color=RED]That's $119.95 BILLION[/font]
http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Wal-Mart_%28WMT%29/Data/Gross_Profit/2012

Subtracting $462 MILLION from $119.95 BILLION is only $119.488 BILLION

I think Walmart can survive with a gross profit of only [Font color=RED]$119.488 BILLION[/font]

This is worst case. Obviously, not all 2.2 MILLION make only minimum wage, and
they all don't work 40 hours, so the gross profit would only be higher then
the $119.488 BILLION

They don't need to raise prices.

Bake

(21,977 posts)
42. I fully support a living wage for fast food workers
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 03:18 PM
Aug 2013

If they'll just get my damn order right.

Bake

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
56. I know a guy who is a supervisor for an elevator company here in Vegas....
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 05:12 PM
Aug 2013

It's all Union. You have to get on a waiting list just to take a timed isolated test and that only gets you on another waiting list for there to be an opening (assuming you pass the test.) All in all he says it takes about two years to qualify as an apprentice.

Keep in mind that the job you do must pass inspectors who raise hell over the slightest squeak, shimmy or bump of a car on rails that could very possibly carry the President of the United States.

shenmue

(38,506 posts)
60. This is the source of so many problems
Wed Aug 7, 2013, 06:07 PM
Aug 2013

With higher wages, more people could afford food, health care and a roof over their heads.

sigmasix

(794 posts)
76. but then they wouldnt be desperate and scared
Thu Aug 8, 2013, 03:15 AM
Aug 2013

and everyone knows that the criminally wealthy prefer the lower classes to know their place. Without a desperate working class the criminal wealthy cannot force workers to do the job of 3 employees while accepting pay-cuts, denigration of labor rights and reduced or eliminated benefits.
.
.
Eating the rich would be unpleasant- couldn't we just cook 'em and keep the left-overs in the freezer? (not to be taken seriously as a threat to cook the rich)

Skeeter Barnes

(994 posts)
77. Workers need to stop waiting around for politicians to flick a crumb off their table.
Thu Aug 8, 2013, 04:30 AM
Aug 2013

$9 per hour?

Workers need to organize. A Union provides not only good pay but benefits, tolerable work rules and job security.


pasto76

(1,589 posts)
83. americans need to understand this duality
Thu Aug 8, 2013, 10:44 AM
Aug 2013

yes, wages are too low. every serious economist says that higher base wages helps everyone in society.

BUT - we need to EARN those higher wages too. I work my ass off at work for a few reasons, one of them being so that if our contractors refuse to a raise in the new contracts, and list lack of profits, production, and OSHA citations as the reason(which comes up in every negotiation like clockwork), then I know *I* am not the reason we are losing money. I know I am doing my part.

I wish the folks working at mcdonalds would make 15 an hour. I wish they had great conditions and good benefits.

I also wish that I would always get a straw with my order. In the morning, its always a crapshoot if I get butter with the hotcakes. Or when they delete the hashbrown from my order or something. Moments like that I understand why some people think we all 'want a handout'. But then I know the folks at my local mcDs probably arent trained that well, and just like on any job, there my be a culture of 'who cares' with nobody there to break that up. in other words they just don't know better or how they are affecting our conditions. Pride in your work, quality service and product. When the American working person gets that back into our ethos as a culture, then we will have real leverage again. Until then I advocate to our contractors every chance I get, I use peer pressure to get the slackers at work to perform up at my level.

n2doc

(47,953 posts)
84. Maybe if they were paid better, they would
Thu Aug 8, 2013, 10:51 AM
Aug 2013

Maybe if they got health insurance and didn't have to work sick, they would. Maybe if they weren't dead tired from having to work 2 jobs, they would.

Treat people like crap, and what do you expect? Why have 'pride' in your company when they screw you in every way they can?


Well run companies, like Costco, know that a happy worker is a productive one, and will more likely feel part of the Team and make sure things are done well.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
89. A low minimum wage would be okay if it was a starting point.
Fri Aug 9, 2013, 12:12 PM
Aug 2013

In many industries, it's the prevailing wage, not a starting point.

Raising the minimum wage is a good idea for this reason alone: it gives the working class more money to buy more stuff to create more jobs. More jobs means pressure on the labor market means higher wages.

The economy is gamed (by regulating interest rates, among other things) to prevent wage inflation as the worst, most horrible thing that could possibly happen and the result is that capital is valuable and labor is not.

The problem isn't that the minimum wage is too low, the problem is that people are stuck there.

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