Rep. John Lewis: "NO PRAISE FOR SNOWDEN-Reports about my interview with The Guardian are misleading"

[kpete]

Rep. John Lewis: No Praise for Snowden
Aug 8, 2013

“News reports about my interview with The Guardian are misleading, and they do not reflect my complete opinion. Let me be clear. I do not agree with what Mr. Snowden did. He has damaged American international relations and compromised our national security. He leaked classified information and may have jeopardized human lives. That must be condemned.

“ I never praised Mr. Snowden or said his actions rise to those of Mohandas Gandhi or other civil rights leaders. In fact, The Guardian itself agreed to retract the word “praise” from its headline.

“At the end of an interview about the 50th anniversary of the March on Washington, I was asked what I thought about Mr. Snowden’s actions. I said he has a right as an individual to act according to the dictates of his conscience, but he must be prepared to pay the price for taking that action. In the movement, we were arrested, we went to jail, we were prepared to pay the price, even lose our lives if necessary. I cannot say and I did not say that what Mr. Snowden did is right. Others will be the judge of that.”

http://johnlewis.house.gov/press-release/rep-john-lewis-no-praise-snowden



(Update 9:27 pst a.m.)

Reporter says otherwise:

Paul Lewis ‏@PaulLewis4m

@jayrosen_nyu His office told me they have no complaint about the article itself. I quoted everything he said on the subject, verbatim.

not good.

https://twitter.com/jayrosen_nyu/status/365499391303364609







update to add
hmmmmmmmmmmm

anybody?

kp

[geek tragedy]

1. rec'd to complete the record. nt

[millennialmax]

2. Shame on them for misrepresenting Mr. Lewis.

[kelliekat44]

55. I repeat: Spreading "disinformation" about or against President Obama is a core value for the

BHO haters on both the left and the right.

[baldguy]

80. They've misrepresented everything else, why is one more thing surprising?

The Snowden fans aren't any better than Tea Baggers at this point.

[MADem]

83. From this little contretemps, we have learned, decisively, that the GUARDIAN is a stenographer for

the Snowden/Greenwald POV. It will be interesting to learn if they have any hand in funding the documentary that is being prepared about Snowden--if so, then they're about as useful as RT in terms of bias.

[BeyondGeography]

3. Oh well

So much for that angle.

[bunnies]

4. Scoot over.

[AtomicKitten]

31. scooch over

I come bearing refreshments --->

[bunnies]

35. Sweet!

[Rex]

174. How did I miss this one?

The comments are next to priceless.

[riqster]

5. Rec for accuracy

[geek tragedy]

6. Objectively, it sounds like Lewis didn't put his own comments in context when speaking

to the Guardian--they quoted him accurately. Those comments may not have captured what he thought, but that's not the Guardian's fault.

[avaistheone1]

26. k&r

[Mojorabbit]

49. That is what it sounds like to me also nt

[hfojvt]

51. well dang

I was thinking Lewis walked it back after the NSA reminded him of some of the things in his file.

[geek tragedy]

59. You obviously don't know much about John Lewis then nt

[pnwmom]

57. It wouldn't be accurate if they left out qualifying sentences or put his sentences in a different

order when quoting him and thereby altered the meaning. Without a transcript we really can't say that they quoted him accurately.

[MADem]

84. Huh? Not the GUARDIAN's fault? Wasn't there a "reporter" in the room?

I can think of a bunch of "reporter-ish" questions that could have been asked!!!

So, Congressman, do you support what Snowden has done?

Do you think Snowden did the right thing, Representative Lewis?

Sir, do you think Snowden did damage to national security?

Do you believe Snowden was justified in taking that material and leaving the country?

I mean, come on--unless they sent over a tape recorder on a roller skate, that was some shitty reporting....OR it was cherry-picked. Or both.

It's what happens when they send over a cheerleader instead of an investigative reporter, I guess...!

[Cha]

97. "The Guardian" took "Praise out of the headline", today.. what does that

freaking tell us? right there? hmmm?

[Cha]

95. I blame the Guardian. I wondered yesterday about them having

John Lewis "nodding" when asked a question.

If JL says it was "misleading" about snowden today.. it's the Guardian's fault not who they were interviewing.

“News reports about my interview with The Guardian are misleading, and they do not reflect my complete opinion. Let me be clear. I do not agree with what Mr. Snowden did. He has damaged American international relations and compromised our national security. He leaked classified information and may have jeopardized human lives. That must be condemned.

“I never praised Mr. Snowden or said his actions rise to those of Mohandas Gandhi or other civil rights leaders. In fact, The Guardian itself agreed to retract the word “praise” from its headline.

They took "Praise" out of the headline. Who's fault was that?

[MADem]

100. Sounds to me like they asked him a question about the March on Washington, and then they asked

a question about Snowden, and they pretended both answers were about Snowden.

Gotta wonder if the Guardian reporter didn't do an internship at RT!

[freshwest]

162. That sounds exactly how it went down.

[MADem]

128. It sounds to me like they conflated.

The interview was about the March on Washington--not Snowden. The "Snowden question" came at the end of the interview.

The reporter mashed it up, the Guardian slapped a "praise" headline on it, the buried the March on Washington aspect (which is how the reporter got the interview in the first place), and then they EAGERLY tweeted that Snowden had a new li'l buddy!



Classic propagandizing. They really should be ashamed. Talk about shark jumping!

[freshwest]

163. +1,000. There it is, one percent media darling propaganda, well paid to do so, too.

[1StrongBlackMan]

141. For those that have followed …

Rep. Lewis and/or the Civil Rights movement, there was no need for him to place his words in context, his life has served as the context … you know, civilly disobey … get beat … go to jail … get beat in jail; but disobeying anyway, because you have the courage of your conviction that what you are doing is right and worthy, because what you are protesting is evil.

That is the legacy of the Civil Rights greats … that is the cross snowden refused to bear … that is point “snowden for civil rights saint” promoters, either don’t understand or choose to ignore.

[freshwest]

165. They think if you call 'em racist they know the pain of the oppressed and the yoke of slavery.

They use these terms often, trying to promote their sense of victimhood. I'm not buying it. There is a refining that Lewis and others have gone through that these cowards could never face. Lewis and the others didn't arm themselves to the teeth and threaten others. They had right on their side, moral example, and the craven ones who smear them have no morals at all. JMHO.

[randome]

7. OMG! The NSA is blackmailing John Lewis too???? Where will it end?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[ProSense]

8. Snowden fans at the Guardian

would never mislead.

Always ask for the transcript: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023422546#post7

Clues were in the editorialized lead-in to his comments.

[moondust]

9. Guardian has lost some credibility lately.

Trying to cover Greenwald's ass, and thus their own, they've wandered into the worst-case CT swamp at times IMO.

[1StrongBlackMan]

142. But …

They are making lots of money!

Wait a minute … I thought liberals frowned upon exploitation for profit.

[Capt. Obvious]

10. This is pure damage control

He read people on DU calling him deranged and figured he'd better put out the fire.

[geek tragedy]

16. And the first True Progressive throws John Lewis under the bus!

Note for the record that no "Obama apologists" threw Lewis under the bus.

[CakeGrrl]

52. The "under the bus" accusers are the first ones to actually DO so.

Not a surprise.

What a silly sandbox this has become.

[treestar]

70. I said his remark was deranged

Typical of emoprogs that there is no difference between

"Lewis' remark is deranged" and "Lewis is deranged."

Well it turns out he did not make a deranged remark after all.

At the end of the bridge, they were met by Alabama State Troopers who ordered them to disperse. When the marchers stopped to pray, the police discharged tear gas and mounted troopers charged the demonstrators, beating them with night sticks. Lewis's skull was fractured, but he escaped across the bridge, to a church in Selma. Before he could be taken to the hospital, John Lewis appeared before the television cameras calling on President Johnson to intervene in Alabama. On his head, Lewis bears scars that are still visible today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lewis_(U.S._politician)

Eddie doesn't have to put up with stuff like that! He should be in a nice place with lots of Russian girlfriends!! (Forget that it's a place where his rights are at the whim of a government that is probably really spying on him.)

[freshwest]

166. If they make him pay taxes in Russia, he'll scream he's being oppressed!

Who are we supposed to think funds these jaunts around the planet? The world's impoverished and disenfranchised? Or the 1% owners of media?

Who puts up the money for slick advertisements like this one:



http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10023295901

Ain't nothing to see here folks, don't think about that man behind the curtain, just move along, keep on following our newest media messiah to lead you to liberty!

[treestar]

167. Another good point

As a libertarian, he's going to a place where control of the economy by the government is no strange thing.

Though I did read somewhere that they have no enforcement mechanism, so it ends up that paying your taxes is voluntary. That's good, as hopefully the government won't have enough money for nukes or a military.

[freshwest]

186. Actually, it's just the opposite. I'll get back to you tomorrow.

[treestar]

188. I'm always ready to learn!

[Cha]

98. Obviously not. The only objections on DU and other Progressives sites

were.. JL wasn't saying that Ghandi was like Snowden because ol hacker/leaker hadn't paid the price.

It was obvious to more than a few.

[hrmjustin]

126. Have you also considered the possiblity he was misrepresented?

It possible you may be righ but you can also be wrong. I hope it gets cleared up soon. I tend to believe the representative.

[1StrongBlackMan]

143. Really? …

Rep. Lewis is back-tracking because some people on an anonymous message board “called him deranged”? Yeah … Okay.

First, I doubt Rep. Lewis has visited DU.

Secondly, (after going back to the original thread) the only ones mentioning that were the “snowden for civil rights saint” crowd, saying that that’s what the non-“snowden for civil rights saint” crowd would say.

But more to the point, those not pushing the “snowden for civil rights saint” (presumably, those “calling him deranged”) to a person were saying no such thing … we were saying exactly what Rep. Lewis has said in his clarification: The “pay the price” part kind of matters when seeking the civil rights saint mantle.

[former9thward]

11. Congressmen like to "revise and extend" their remarks.

They do that all the time in the Congressional record. That is what is he trying to do here for whatever reason. But he said what he said.

Asked in interview with the Guardian whether Snowden was engaged in an act of civil disobedience, Lewis nodded and replied: "In keeping with the philosophy and the discipline of non-violence, in keeping with the teaching of Henry David Thoreau and people like Gandhi and others, if you believe something that is not right, something is unjust, and you are willing to defy customs, traditions, bad laws, then you have a conscience. You have a right to defy those laws and be willing to pay the price."

"That is what we did," he added. "I got arrested 40 times during the sixties. Since I've been in Congress I've been arrested four times. Sometimes you have to act by the dictates of your conscience. You have to do it."

When it was pointed out to Lewis that many in Washington believed that Snowden was simply a criminal, he replied: "Some people say criminality or treason or whatever. He could say he was acting because he was appealing to a higher law. Many of us have some real, real, problems with how the government has been spying on people."

He added: "We had that problem during the height of the civil rights movement. People spied on, and got information on Martin Luther King junior, and tried to use it against him, on the movement, tried to plant people within different organisations – that probably led to the destruction of some of those groups."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/07/john-lewis-civil-rights-edward-snowden/print

[pnwmom]

54. Without seeing the transcript, we do not know what he said. We don't know what words might have

been omitted, or what sentences might have been re-ordered to alter his meaning.

[former9thward]

56. Well since he did not make those charges

I am going to assume what was printed was accurate.

[pnwmom]

58. It could be technically "accurate" and still leave out important context and qualifiers

that changed its meaning.

He said it did not reflect his complete opinion. If they left out negative things he said about Snowden it would not be a truly accurate report of his opinion.

[DevonRex]

99. The Reporter STUCK HIS QUESTION in the MIDDLE of what

Congressman Lewis was saying about the struggle for civil rights. That's obvious. Read it again.

I mean AFTER the fact. He didn't ask that question then. But he liked that section as the answer to the question. So for print, he stuck the question in there.

[Fumesucker]

12. Evidently Representative Lewis' Bus Position Index has now been revised to Not Under

[ProSense]

13. Will this get a brazillian recs?

[Fumesucker]

15. Predicting is hard

Especially about the future.

[geek tragedy]

14. No, he's now under the bus of the True Progressives.

Also, who threw him under the bus yesterday?

[Fumesucker]

17. So you say Rep Lewis Bus Position Status has not changed and he's under the bus?

But you're wondering who had him under the bus yesterday?

Would it be too much to ask that we make up our minds?

[geek tragedy]

19. He was under no bus yesterday.

Now he is under one.

Someone claimed with a straight face that this was damage control because of the (imaginary) flaming he got ... . wait for it . . . at Democratic Underground.

[Capt. Obvious]

25. Who the hell would do that?

[geek tragedy]

27. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3427982

[Capt. Obvious]

29. Link doesn't work

[BumRushDaShow]

32. Link works just fine. nt

[geek tragedy]

39. have yourself on ignore? nt

[Fumesucker]

43. You are needed in the Sanjay Gupta thread

Evidently someone belabored him about the head and shoulders with a clue by four and he now is aware of the blatantly obvious.

[Capt. Obvious]

45. I'm a fan of the obvious

[Fumesucker]

47. Obviously

[Fumesucker]

28. I'm responsible for my own words and that's it

I won't hold you to anyone's words but those you write too.

To be honest I'm finding this back and forth between the Obama True Believers and the Über Progressives more and more entertaining and that's fast becoming my focus more than any particular issue. I have my point of view but I can also see somewhat beyond and around it, I try not to let it blind me to any other perspective, sometimes more successfully than others.

It's long since become clear that there's rodent copulators on both sides, BetterBelieveIt was one graham4anything was another.

[geek tragedy]

37. I wonder if BBI and G4A were the same person nt

[Fumesucker]

46. BBI didn't tie my optic nerves in knots trying to decypher word sausage

So probably not.

[geek tragedy]

62. Unless BBI was the more accurate manifestation of the person's beliefs

whereas G4A was the "here's how I would act if I were an authoritarian hack" persona.

[Fumesucker]

66. Anything is possible of course, this is the internet

But that was some fairly different styles of communication there, by no means was I trying to draw a line between the two other than in their preferred sexual fetish.

[treestar]

71. BBI tended to post an article and that was all

The only comment was the subject line

So maybe when BBI writes his thoughts at long length, they are like G4s.

[kpete]

22. Daffy

is a god to me!



peace, kp

[BeyondGeography]

23. Here's an example why many of us would/should never do that in the first place

[DevonRex]

93. Nobody believed The Guardian yesterday, just like nobody believes

The Guardian/Greenwald on anything Snowden/Assange/etc.

[Fumesucker]

107. Exactly, those horrible liberals, warping everything to their viewpoint

They're worse than Fox.

If there's one thing Democrats and Republicans alike can reach bipartisan agreement on it is that they both loathe the left for its manifold sins, the very worst of which is being so often correct.

[DevonRex]

114. LOL.

I am one of the intelligent liberals who can see uber obvious bullshit in a headline. And I'm one of those on the left who is REALLY pissed off that The Guardian would dare use a Civil Rights hero, a living legend like Congressman John Lewis, to further their slimy agenda. How DARE that reporter misrepresent what he said, rearrange the interview so that it looked like he praised Snowden in that fashion?

Fuck them. As far as I am concerned that was a racist attack. They USED JOHN LEWIS BECAUSE OF HIS STATUS AS AN AFRICAN AMERICAN CIVIL RIGHTS ICON AND LIED ABOUT WHAT HE SAID.

To boost their little American traitor who defected to Russia - who jails, beats, tortures and murders dissenters, liberals, LGBTs.

THIS is what RUSSIA does to whistleblowers, liberals, dissenters, and probably LGBTs.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Magnitsky

Sergei Leonidovich Magnitsky (Russian: Сергей Леонидович Магнитский; 8 April 1972 – 16 November 2009) was a Russian accountant and auditor whose arrest and subsequent death in custody generated international media attention and triggered both official and unofficial inquiries into allegations of fraud, theft and human rights violations.[1] Magnitsky had alleged there had been a large-scale theft from the Russian state sanctioned and carried out by Russian officials. He was arrested and eventually died in prison seven days before the expiration of the one-year term during which he could be legally held without trial.[2] In total, Magnitsky served 358 days in Moscow's notorious Butyrka prison. He developed gall stones, pancreatitis and a blocked gall bladder and received inadequate medical care. A human rights council set up by the Kremlin found that he was beaten up just before he died.[3][4] His case has become an international cause célèbre[5] and led to the adoption of the Magnitsky bill by the US government at the end of 2012 by which those Russian officials believed to be involved in the lawyer’s death were barred from entering the United States or using its banking system. In response Russia blocked hundreds of foreign adoptions.[6] In early January 2013, the Financial Times editorialised that "the Magnitsky case is egregious, well documented and encapsulates the darker side of Putinism"[7] and endorsed the idea of imposing similar sanctions against the implicated Russian officials by the EU countries.[7]

In 2013 the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, a D.C-based nonprofit news organization, obtained records of companies and trusts created by two offshore companies which included information on at least 23 companies linked to an alleged $230 million tax fraud in Russia, a case that was being investigated by Sergei Magnitsky. The ICIJ investigation also revealed that the husband of one of the Russian tax officials deposited millions in a Swiss bank account set up by one of the offshore companies.[6]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/globalbusiness/8207690/Sergei-Magnitsky-European-Parliament-recommends-tough-sanctions-on-Russian-officials.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-drops-inquiry-into-death-of-sergei-magnitsky-8541205.htmlInvestigators have dropped an inquiry into the death in jail of Sergei Magnitsky, stating that the whistleblowing lawyer’s agonising death, which became an international scandal, was not the result of malpractice.

[Fumesucker]

122. You reply to a point I didn't make

But failed to reply to the point I did make.

It's hardly surprising that the Russians are corrupt, only slightly less so than finding out there is corruption in American government as well.

[BumRushDaShow]

18. Does this mean the Guardian... gulp... LIED?

Fabricated? Exaggerated?

[geek tragedy]

20. Put their partisan spin on it nt

[millennialmax]

33. What else is new? It's one step above The Daily Mail. eom

[FSogol]

21. K & R. n/t

[UTUSN]

24. R#13 & K for, nothing to hmmmmm about!1 n/t

[kpete]

30. but please, UTUSN

have some more

Paul Lewis ‏@PaulLewis 30m
@jayrosen_nyu His office told me they have no complaint about the article itself. I quoted everything he said on the subject, verbatim.

https://twitter.com/jayrosen_nyu/status/365499391303364609

[DevonRex]

145. Sure he did. Then he stuck that question in the middle for the article.

Sure, Rep. Lewis said all that. But not to that question. Seriously, you'd have to be on some serious chemicals to imagine Congressman John Lewis would compare Ed Snowden to Ghandi. Ghandi? Really??????

And coming from John Lewis, the ONLY surviving member of The Big Six, who were all about nonviolence. And he was one of the original 13 Freedom Riders. When Ed Snowden has, beyond doubt, endangered lives - which we know from Der Spiegel.

Just look at Lewis's wiki page. He was beaten, fire bombed. Thrown in jail so many times it is not funny. For peaceful demonstrations. He never ran. Never once. You do what you have to do and you have to be willing to pay the price.

[Life Long Dem]

34. Media spin is in full swing

Surprise surprise.

[djean111]

36. Why the hell is Snowden still a story?

It is mind-boggling.
Kudoes to the deflection specialists.

[geek tragedy]

38. Perhaps you missed the big "John Lewis proclaims Snowden our generation's Rosa Parks"

posts yesterday.

[djean111]

42. I saw them.

Didn't bother reading much. I don't care about Snowden much any more.
I am mystified at the continued bashing, and don't see why he is a story now.
The NSA is the story. Doesn't matter what his agenda is or was. Some of the stuff is just embarrassingly silly, like dragging out his opinions from years ago, when Obama, Hillary, and others have changed their views and/or did about-faces on things they campaigned on. In those cases, we are told oh, they evolved. Evidently evolving is not an option for any but the chosen ones or something.
Weird.

[geek tragedy]

44. Takes two to tango on it.

Discussion boards are notoriously personality-oriented, both pro and anti.

[Fumesucker]

53. A need for heroes and villains, archetypes I think Joseph Campbell calls them

We tell each other stories constantly and stories almost always involve characters, ourselves or someone else or a fabricated persona even.

[geek tragedy]

63. Policy is boring. Requires attention to details, putting things in context, and dealing in

abstractions.

Who ever made a movie about the EPA promulgating regulations?

[Peacetrain]

40. I saw a couple of threads yesterday.. and decided not to comment

because it too conveniently fit a narrative..Either the interpretations or actual words.. just fit too neatly in the box.. almost always has to be revisited...

[randome]

68. A good rule of thumb to use.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Cha]

92. Hey Peacetrain~ I commented several times that

John Lewis was not talking about snowden because he hadn't "paid the price" that Rep Lewis was talking about.

“News reports about my interview with The Guardian are misleading, and they do not reflect my complete opinion. Let me be clear. I do not agree with what Mr. Snowden did. He has damaged American international relations and compromised our national security. He leaked classified information and may have jeopardized human lives. That must be condemned.

“I never praised Mr. Snowden or said his actions rise to those of Mohandas Gandhi or other civil rights leaders. In fact, The Guardian itself agreed to retract the word “praise” from its headline.

I blame it on the guardian.. some of us we're wondering if JL "nodded" like they said he did in the article.

I was hoping John Lewis would see what that paper had done and he'd set the record straight today.. and here it is.

[Peacetrain]

144. Hi Cha.. The Guardian

in trying to defend itself seems to be drifting into the arena of "made up news to prove a point"

And those of us who have the utmost respect for the experiences that John Lewis has lived through.. it becomes painful to watch people type demeaning comments about him.

[Cha]

148. ..

[Blue State Bandit]

41. My sentiments exactly. Progressives take heed.

The best thing about being an American. You can do what you want, as long as you are willing to pay the price. In othe words, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

The two big problems I have with this over arching story is that (1) Snowden refused to live up to this adage, and by doing so, has (2) crippled our ability to make those in power (i.e. those who are abusing these programs) live up to this standard as well.

So to those who disagree with my point of view, I offer a compromise, Snowden and Gen. Alexander (and the many others involved in this flagrant breach of our 4th Amendment rights) should be cellmates.

[zeemike]

50. "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime."

Does not mean that you have to turn yourself in after doing the crime...frankly that would be stupid.
I cannot hold it against anyone who wants to avoid being put in jail and tortured for the rest of their life...only a crazy person or an idiot would do that.
Now if you had protection of the legal system that would be a different thing...then you would be principled...but that protection has been done away with and you don't stand a chance against the system if you squeal on them.

[Blue State Bandit]

69. It means if you choose to do the crime, you had better be prepared to do the time.

If you speed, don't bitch when u get a ticket.
If you illegally discharge your firearm, don't bitch when you lose the right to carry one.
If you breach a non-disclosure agreement at your top-secret job, don't act all surprised if someone tries to throw you in jail for it.

True patriots accept the possibility of prison when committing acts of civil-disobedience. This is the difference between the Freedom Riders and, say, the KKK.

[zeemike]

78. I don't think Snoweden was suprised by it.

That is why he fled the country...there is no point in subjecting yourself to torture and punishment if you don't have to.
Whole diferent thing with the freedom riders...going to jail was the only way they had to resist the unjust laws...They could not ride the bus in a foreign country.

[Blue State Bandit]

87. Are you saying they were barred from leaving the country?

Daniel Ellsberg sure had an opportunity to leave the country. He didn't. He walked right into the federal courthouse in Boston and defied them to take such actions.

[zeemike]

108. What you think the Freedom Riders rode the bus

And then could flee the country before the cops got there?
Or sit at the lunch counter and then hop on a plane to Moscow?

But that was a much different time...we had a legal system that worked and Elisburg was charged and released so he could defend himself...that would not be the case today...were Snowden to turn himself in he would be taken to jail and mistreated and we wold never see or hear from him again...and you know that.

Civil disobedience is not a suicide pact...

[Blue State Bandit]

170. Missing my point... on purpose?

I was comparing the actions of the Freedom Riders to their contemporary antagonists, the KKK in each of their attempts to shape public opinion.

And I could point you to some Tibetan Monks, American Founding Fathers, and even a Chinese man holding a grocery bag that would challenge that last assertion of yours.

"A man who was completely innocent, offered himself as a sacrifice for the good of others, including his enemies, and became the ransom of the world. It was a perfect act."

Mahatma Gandhi


Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mahatmagan150715.html#3ZyJrspsdbt6PbC7.99

[zeemike]

172. How was the KKK trying to shape public opinion?

By beating the crap out of people in clear violation of a just law?
And you compare that to the Freedom riders non violent disobedience of an unjust law?
Sorry but I don't think you can compare opposites.

And whether you accept it or not Snowden DID offer himself up as a sacrifice...but did not put himself in his enemies hands.
He gave up family and friends and a comfortable life...

For he that fights and runs away, may live to fight another day, but he, who is in battle slain, can never rise and fight again.
Goldsmith, Oliver

[Blue State Bandit]

175. You are completely misconstruing my argument. KKK and the Freedom Riders are Juxtaposed...

contemporaneous actors in the fight over civil rights. If you can not, or choose not to understand this line of comparison, that's on you.

So, for anyone else with a rudimentary understanding of history, and juxtaposed comparisons, I will leave it at this:

Snowden is to Ellsberg as KKK is to Freedom Riders.

And when it turns out that Snowden (The Paulite) was acting with the assistance of the same players involved with the Stratfor Global attempt to "Rat Fuck" Greenwald, and in turn, split the Democrats over this shit, I'll try not to say I told you so.

[zeemike]

177. "Snow den is to Ellsberg as KKK is to Freedom Riders"

Bull fucking shit...that is the most ridiculous hyperbole I have heard on this subject yet.
I know what the KKK stands for, and I find it insulting for you to compare them to Snowden...Snowden did not lynch anyone or kill anyone...he is guilty of blowing the whistle on people that do so regularly and have no regards for the civil rights of black or white people...they are the ones that can be compared to the KKK.

So we have nothing further to say to each other.

[Blue State Bandit]

179. Love how you misrepresent my argument in the title line...

The analogy is Ellsberg/FR stood up, and Snowden/KKK (and this is not a direct comparison between Snowden and KKK's ideology which is apparent if you bother to re-read in full, our sub-thread), sulk off in the hopes that their benefactors will shield them from answering for their actions.


The only hyporbole here is your use of said word.

[zeemike]

180. I misrepresented them by quoting you?

You said that and I did not change a word.

Funny how we cannot compare anyone to Hitler but you can compare Snowden to the KKK.

And there is nothing hyperbolic in what I said...but thanks for the example of projection.

[Blue State Bandit]

181. out of context.

n/t

[TheKentuckian]

182. Yeah, it is Snowden's fault the powerful aren't held to account.

What are we all like a few months old?

The demands for strict martyrdom from those who swallowed "looking forward" and "Impeachment is off the table" and "too big to prosecute" are literally disgusting.

OH, NOW there must be accountability. Now the losses involved like leaving a career, family, friends, culture, relationship, and all they have known is a nothing-burger because the state must be allowed to extract it's pound of flesh as it sees fit from one of the "small people" and they must lose all of those things still and die, be imprisoned, maybe some torture, maybe some of those "hilarious" prison rapes.

NOW.

It is this kat that must pay?

[Blue State Bandit]

183. But 2 months later, we are left squabbling over insufficient information...

because he wanted to horse-trade the leaks to give him a soft landing in China, and now Russia. All he had to do was outline the issue he had with the program, and offer a clear case-in-point of actual illegal actions.

He claims to have had the same type (technological leap not withstanding) of access as Sibel Edmonds' did in 2004, and they where spying on Congress. She spoke of conversations between elected officials in the act of illegal action. But he only puts out enough to guarantee disagreement on whether his story really is what it is.

And since I don't particularly trust Snowden, I'm, the one who said "Yum!" to that shit sandwich we were served when Obama let the Bush admin. off the hook? I think not.

We all know it's happening. That is not my point. Should he get to be my hero for reminding me? F no. Unless he's got something solid to contribute, and that is yet to happen.

[TheKentuckian]

187. So the not being able to hold the powerful accountable section can be nixed?

And really this is if you should think Snowden is a hero or not? Who cares? Label him anyway you'd like and let's get on with asserting our natural rights and frying clearly bigger fish.

Hell, I'm good with sticking with what the government admits they are doing which takes a pretty fucking creative and elastic interpretation of the constitution to even pretend it is okay.

[totodeinhere]

48. It looks like "they" got to him and forced him to walk back his comments.

Things like this happen all the time but usually it's the original comment that is genuine, not the retraction that they are forced to make later.

[pnwmom]

64. No, it looks like the Guardian is acting more and more like the other British tabloids.

Leaving out important context and qualifiers in order to juice up the story.

Why give an accurate report when the juiced up version is so much more exciting?

[OnyxCollie]

65. Considering that Lewis and everyone in his family may be under surveillance,

standing up against the surveillance state could result in prosecutions against those he cares about.

See: Conyers, Monica.

[geek tragedy]

73. What an utterly deranged comment. nt

[millennialmax]

74. It must hurt to be that paranoid. eom

[geek tragedy]

76. no brains, no headaches nt

[millennialmax]

77. LOL.

[OnyxCollie]

151. It hurts to reply to stupid people.

Ouch.

Time to put you on ignore and be pain-free.

[emulatorloo]

168. Take it to "Creative Speculation" if you don't want to be challenged.

[treestar]

75. prosecution for what?

[BumRushDaShow]

79. "Someone" made her plead guilty for taking bribes?

The NSA made her do it ya know!!11!!!1!

[geek tragedy]

86. These are the same idiots who think that John Lewis is easily intimidated nt

[zeemike]

82. I see the crew is out and about to call you crazy.

No they would never do that would they?...
Considering the NSA has all his data for who knows how long, I bet they can get him to say anything they want.
But the defenders of the survalence state pretend they would never do that...

[geek tragedy]

85. The claim that the Obama administration is threatening to put John Lewis's family

in jail over comments he made to a British newspaper is something only a crazy person would say.

Moreover, anyone who says this about John Lewis--

I bet they can get him to say anything they want.

is an ignoramus who needs to read up on John Lewis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lewis_(U.S._politician)

In 1964, Lewis coordinated SNCC's efforts for "Mississippi Freedom Summer," a campaign to register black voters across the South. The Freedom Summer was an attempt to expose college students from around the country to the perils of African American life in the South. Lewis traveled the country encouraging students to spend their summer break trying to help people in Mississippi, the most recalcitrant state in the union, to register and vote. Lewis became nationally known during his prominent role in the Selma to Montgomery marches. On March 7, 1965 – a day that would become known as "Bloody Sunday" – Lewis and fellow activist Hosea Williams led over 600 marchers across the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama. At the end of the bridge, they were met by Alabama State Troopers who ordered them to disperse. When the marchers stopped to pray, the police discharged tear gas and mounted troopers charged the demonstrators, beating them with night sticks. Lewis's skull was fractured, but he escaped across the bridge, to a church in Selma. Before he could be taken to the hospital, John Lewis appeared before the television cameras calling on President Johnson to intervene in Alabama. On his head, Lewis bears scars that are still visible today.

Historian Howard Zinn wrote: "At the great Washington March of 1963, the chairman of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC), John Lewis, speaking to the same enormous crowd that heard Martin Luther King’s I Have a Dream speech, was prepared to ask the right question: 'Which side is the federal government on?’ That sentence was eliminated from his speech by organizers of the March to avoid offending the Kennedy Administration. But Lewis and his fellow SNCC workers had experienced, again and again, the strange passivity of the national government in the face of Southern violence."[4]

"John Lewis and SNCC had reason to be angry. At 21 years old, John Lewis was the first of the Freedom Riders to be assaulted while in Rock Hill, South Carolina. He tried to enter a whites-only waiting room and two white men attacked him, injuring his face and kicking him in the ribs. Nevertheless, only two weeks later Lewis joined a Freedom Ride that was bound for Jackson. “We were determined not to let any act of violence keep us from our goal. We knew our lives could be threatened, but we had made up our minds not to turn back,” Lewis said recently in regard to his perseverance following the act of violence.[5]

In an interview with CNN during the 40th anniversary of the Freedom Rides, Lewis recounted the sheer amount of violence he and the 12 other original Freedom Riders endured. In Anniston, Alabama, the bus was fire-bombed after Ku Klux Klan members deflated its tires, forcing it to come to a stop. In Birmingham, the Riders were mercilessly beaten, and in Montgomery, an angry mob met the bus, and Lewis was hit in the head with a wooden crate. “It was very violent. I thought I was going to die. I was left lying at the Greyhound bus station in Montgomery unconscious,” said Lewis, remembering the incident.

[Cha]

106. It's Insulting to Congressman Lewis and shows(once again)

.. they don't have a fooking clue.

Thanks for the bio, gt.. "got to John Lewis" rofl.. sure, it must be that. because their hero is freaking "Ghandi", damn it.

[OnyxCollie]

152. Ah, the crew.

Taking time out from their circle jerk to attack me.

I'm flattered.

[backscatter712]

89. I'll bet that's true - the spooks got to him. n/t

[geek tragedy]

116. I'll bet only crazy people agree with you that John Lewis is lying because

he's being blackmailed by Obama.

[woo me with science]

96. That was my first thought, as well.

I think credibility here is clearly with the reporter. There's no logical reason for the reporter to have made up the quotes, particularly with his source available to dispute them.

By contrast, there's a very strong motive for the NSA to want to compel a retraction.

[woo me with science]

136. The immediate resort to namecalling

betrays the vacuity of the response.

[geek tragedy]

138. Heh, you question John Lewis's integrity and courage and then

whine about name calling.

[woo me with science]

150. Oh, my.

You start out with empty namecalling, and then when called out on that, attempt in desperation to put words in my mouth.

Are you honestly trying to smear me with something like the nasty Third Way allegations that Snowden is a coward because he won't submit to the authoritarian "security" state?

Thanks for demonstrating in these two posts both the reliance on empty nastiness *and* the absurdity of the Third Way rhetoric we are constantly fed.

Night, night now.

[Cha]

101. Oh yeah, more paranoid conspiracy theories from the snowden crowd.

It figures.

[woo me with science]

110. No, it's a matter of simple logic re: motives.

There is no logical reason whatsoever for a reporter to fabricate such strong comments out of wholecloth, particularly when the source is present to dispute them.

There is every logical reason to suspect that the NSA would demand comments like that to be walked back.

[DevonRex]

119. The MOTIVE is the slimy Guardian reporter USED an interview with

an African American civil rights icon to boost their little traitor. The fucking asshole reporter asked Congressman John Lewis, a hero, about civil rights, then later for print stuck in the Snowden question out of sequence.

It's a lie. The whole goddamned thing. The purpose of the interview was a lie. The Guardian has made a grave mistake. And what they did, using an African American civil rights hero for their own ends? That is racism. They drew a bright line and put themselves on the other side with the men with the fire hoses on that bridge.

I stand with John Lewis. I stand with John Lewis in his jail cell. You guys go on the run with Snowden. Ghandi ain't with Snowden on the run or in Russia. If you read what John Lewis said, he made that clear as a bell.

[MADem]

124. That slimeball reporter got in the door by saying he wanted to interview him about the fiftieth

anniversary of the March on Washington. Bastard!

Then he takes the quotes, and conflates the interview to make it appear that Lewis's remarks were all about Snowden.

Lewis's press release is an efficient smackdown of that game.

That reporter won't be able to get a No Comment from the Democratic caucus for a while, I'm betting. Fucking with someone like that, twisting their words, is just wrong.

[DevonRex]

127. GMTA. I just wrote a long post saying that.

I think it's racist as hell, using an African American struggle for that. Lying to him to get in the door.

Do you know what the Big Six is? Lewis is the only living member. He's a goddamned living hero. I am so angry I could spit. That reporter needs to leave the U.S.

[MADem]

129. Yep--they GAMED the guy, they lied about the purpose of the interview (March on Washington) and

then they had the brass to stuff that "praise" headline on the thing, and tweet that Snowden had a "New Best Friend:"



Talk about hot-breathed eagerness!

I love the way John Lewis bigfooted right back, though--no one, no way, is going to push that man around.

I know Big Six--I know Jesse would like to be six and a half (hee hee)! He just didn't quite get in on the ground floor!

I agree with your take--they're trying to use him, and they took advantage of his minority status and civil rights credentials to get that interview, and lied about what they wanted out of him. The quoted him out of context and were hoping he'd go along and get along. Well, as they say in the trenches, fuck that noise! I am so glad he stepped up and called them on their nonsense.

[geek tragedy]

120. Lewis is not claiming the quotes were fabricated. He's saying they were taken out of context

and misconstrued.

[DevonRex]

135. What's OOC is the QUESTION. The reporter stuck it in where it

doesn't belong. If he ever asked it to begin with. What John Lewis says flows just right without the question.

[burnodo]

103. I think the "they" here is Democrats

[geek tragedy]

118. Amazing how you people throw John Lewis under the bus, call him a liar, and then

top it off by blaming Obama and Democrats in some kind of nutjob theory that they've pushed him around.

John Lewis got the shit beat out of him, with skull fractures, during the Civil Rights Movement. he has more progressive instincts and more courage than Edwards Snowden and all of his fanpeople multiplied by 1000.

[burnodo]

147. So why did he walk back his comments?

I'm not calling him a liar. I'm asking you why he felt the need to make a different statement than the one he made to The Guardian? Or, are you implying the Guardian lied about what Lewis said to them?

[BumRushDaShow]

157. He didn't "walk back" a thing

He had to clarify what he meant after the bullshit headline that the Guardian published (and then RETRACTED) and the mashed-up placement of comments, spun his remarks so far out of context, that it succeeded in becoming the ultimate shit pile for the flies their reporter aimed to attract.

[ecstatic]

133. Under the bus Lewis goes?

You do realize you're insulting him, right?

[totodeinhere]

185. No, see reply #184 n/t

[hrmjustin]

134. Are you saying he is a liar?

[totodeinhere]

184. No this certainly does not rise to that level. He is a man of

integrity, not a liar. But all politicians walk back comments from time to time. That's just the nature of politics. Even President Obama has been forced to play that game.

Obama walks back comment about private economy 'doing fine'

http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/economy/231833-obama-walks-back-comment-about-private-economy-doing-fine#ixzz2baNcK5YR

But that doesn't make President Obama a liar either.

[sheshe2]

60. As The Guardian Spins~

So do The Days of Our Lives~

[Tarheel_Dem]

61. "The Guardian" and "misleading" in the same sentence? Quelle Surprise!

[SidDithers]

67. DU rec...nt

Sid

[Enrique]

72. i agree some of the news reports made him sound more supportive than he was

I don't remember the Guardian's headline, but the quotes in the article itself made it clear what Lewis was and wasn't saying.

[MADem]

81. Oh dear--I said this yesterday, and was personally insulted for comprehending the obvious.

Where are the people who were so rude to those of us who interpreted Congressman Lewis's statement the way he intended it to be interpreted? Will they ever apologize, I wonder? Will they withdraw their full-throated support of Lewis because his love for the leaker isn't as ardent as they assumed?


" ...I cannot say and I did not say that what Mr. Snowden did is right. Others will be the judge of that.”

His clarification came about as quick as I expected that it would--I was pretty certain he wouldn't allow that mischaracterization to stand.

[CakeGrrl]

105. You will largely hear crickets from the insulting, attack crowd.

That, or more conspiracy theorizing that someone must have "gotten to" poor Rep. Lewis. He can't possibly have wanted to correct statement saying that Snowden belongs up there with Gandhi, because, you know...he DOES!

[MADem]

112. Never mind that the "reporter" (I use quotes because that's debatable) wasn't interviewing Rep Lewis

about Snowden. He was interviewing him about the March on Washington.

At least that's how he managed to get in the door!

You'd never know that from the article that came out---that thing sounded like Lewis was "holding forth" on the Snowden subject, when, in actual fact, the Snowden thing was a single question at the END of the Anniversary of the March interview!

All that Ghandi stuff was said in the context of what happened in Washington fifty years ago. It had nothing to do with Fast Eddie.

Congressman Lewis made it pretty clear that he doesn't like being gamed; he laid it out quite clearly in his press release.

[Cha]

109. Hey move over..

I was too.. badge of honor

I went to bed last night wishing that JLewis would see what the guardian had done and have them retract it, asap. Got my wish!

[MADem]

111. I knew he was going to correct the record. I just didn't know how.

He was smart to issue his own press release--can't trust that paper to get it right!

I'll bet his aide burnt up the phone talking to those folks at that paper....and I think that reporter is going to have to wait a long-ass time before he gets any CBC interviews, or even any interviews from anyone in the Democratic caucus!

They just can't trust the GUARDIAN to be fair to them.

[Cha]

113. Thank goodness in a way that this has been

highlighted so well. the guardian screwed the pooch on this.

People have had their doubts about the paper of greenwald/snowden but when they interviewed Rep John Lewis and made him into a snowden groupie.. they went too far with the wrong person.

[geek tragedy]

117. These same morons are now claiming that Lewis is lying and that the reason

is that he's being bullied/blackmailed/intimidated by Obama.

psychotic

[MADem]

121. Anyone who has ever been in the presence of John Lewis knows that's a bullshit argument!

No one puts John Lewis in the corner. That man will not be intimidated, he will not be moved. He is a FORCE.

When people start saying that kind of foolishness, they've lost the bubble.

[geek tragedy]

123. Trolls, all of them. Seriously, anyone who talks that kind of shit about John Lewis is

a fucking troll, QED.

[MADem]

125. Certainly not walking the "progressive" walk, at a minimum...! nt

[Number23]

130. We've been chatting about this in the AA forum. I'm surprised you weren't there!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11874004

1StrongBlackMan was so disgusted by the deliberate and obvious mischaracterization of Lewis' point. And his post was HOURS before Lewis issued his press release. It was obvious to anyone with half a brain what the Guardan was trying to do.

But yesterday was Claim a Negro among some here. Between twisting John Lewis's words to make it seem like he was lapping at the Snowden trough or making it seem like Vance Jones kneed President Obama in the groin when all the man said was "we need to balance these surveillance programs" some folks around here CLEARLY showed their asses yesterday. And not one of them was a surprise.

[MADem]

131. I'll get over there--I said it yesterday; I knew Lewis wasn't jumping on the Yeah Eddie bandwagon.

Goes against everything he stands for--integrity, accountability, courage of convictions, stand and deliver. JL has all that, ES hasn't shown any of that to this point.

I'm still getting double-down noise around here, like the "reporter" has more credibility than a guy who survived some difficult days fifty years ago.

Mind blowing..!

[MADem]

131. Freaky--a double post--I rarely see those in DU3...happened all the time in DU2...

[msanthrope]

137. "Claim a Negro" is exactly right. I guess the "I have a Black friend" and the "Cornel West

said so" schtick wore thin.

[Number23]

146. Somebody tried to "invoke" Corny too! Thread sank like a damn stone.

He has been exposed way too many times as a bitter hater for anyone to take him seriously. Well, anyone except other said bitter haters.

[msanthrope]

149. The ODS of the emoprogs has never been shriller and funnier--I can only imagine the

bitter disappointment one must feel when one has spent hours, daily, trying to get the NSA to notice one, to no avail.

[blackspade]

88. Interesting.

[DevonRex]

90. It was The Guardian. Anyone with half a brain CELL knew Lewis

never said that.

[cthulu2016]

91. Never said what?

[ProSense]

94. Never said:

"Civil Rights Icon John Lewis: Snowden’s Actions In Line With Gandhi, Thoreau "

From the OP:

Rep. John Lewis: No Praise for Snowden
Aug 8, 2013

“News reports about my interview with The Guardian are misleading, and they do not reflect my complete opinion. Let me be clear. I do not agree with what Mr. Snowden did. He has damaged American international relations and compromised our national security. He leaked classified information and may have jeopardized human lives. That must be condemned.

“ I never praised Mr. Snowden or said his actions rise to those of Mohandas Gandhi or other civil rights leaders. In fact, The Guardian itself agreed to retract the word “praise” from its headline.

“At the end of an interview about the 50th anniversary of the March on Washington, I was asked what I thought about Mr. Snowden’s actions. I said he has a right as an individual to act according to the dictates of his conscience, but he must be prepared to pay the price for taking that action. In the movement, we were arrested, we went to jail, we were prepared to pay the price, even lose our lives if necessary. I cannot say and I did not say that what Mr. Snowden did is right. Others will be the judge of that.”

[hrmjustin]

102. Thank you for posting this.

[Oilwellian]

139. Let's see...

Asked in interview with the Guardian whether Snowden was engaged in an act of civil disobedience, Lewis nodded and replied:

"In keeping with the philosophy and the discipline of non-violence, in keeping with the teaching of Henry David Thoreau and people like Gandhi and others, if you believe something that is not right, something is unjust, and you are willing to defy customs, traditions, bad laws, then you have a conscience. You have a right to defy those laws and be willing to pay the price."

Lewis gave the quote above, and the Guardian reported it as Lewis drawing an analogy. Lewis responded that that analogy shouldn't be read to imply "rising to the level of" Gandhi or King, only to say that Gandhi and King grounded their actions in the same right that Snowden also grounds his actions in.

Now, back to the real issue at hand, I really like this John Lewis quote:

Many of us have some real, real, problems with how the government has been spying on people.

[1StrongBlackMan]

140. Don’t Ya Just Hate …

When that happens?

You co-opt the words of a respected Civil Rights leader to say, “See? Even a Civil Right icon thinks Snowden is a Civil Rights icon, on par with Ghandi, Thoreau and Dr. King” … you spend all day arguing about the utter irrelevance of the “pay the price” part … even arguing that snowden HAS paid a price because he “lost his country, his family, has good paying job and his comfortable life” … only to have the speaker of the words shoot you down?

But I know … I know … somebody got to him! It’s a conspiracy! They got to him!

[Cha]

156. Don't you just love it...

when you were right Yesterday about what Rep John Lewis was actually saying?

I actually wished before I went to bed last night that JL would see how the guardian wrote this and straighten it out today!

You can imagine how good it felt to read his words in the AJC this morning from his web page!?

[1StrongBlackMan]

161. It's becoming ...

almost comical watching that element of DU acting exactly like the rightwingers that we used to almost always laugh at:

A media story comes out the rightwing with great glee re-posts and "Yups" it far and wide ... The story turns out to be completely false or mostly false to the point of having to back of the story ... We (used to) Laugh at them ... A media story comes out the rightwing with great glee re-posts and "Yups" it far and wide ... The story turns out to be completely false or mostly false to the point of having to back of the story ... We (used to) Laugh at them ... A media story comes out the rightwing with great glee re-posts and "Yups" it far and wide ... The story turns out to be completely false or mostly false to the point of having to back of the story ... We (used to) Laugh at them.

We saw this from afar for the past 3 1/2, Now, with the sudden rise of "speaking truth to power-hold their feet to the fire-(and more recently)snowden for civil rights saint" posters, we get to see it in our living rooms.

[Capt. Obvious]

164. " It's becoming .. "

"It's becoming ...

almost comical watching that element of DU acting exactly like the rightwingers that we used to almost always laugh at"

Yep

[BlueCheese]

153. John Lewis is a hero of mine.

I read his book, Walking With The Wind, which described his journey from poverty to the civil rights movement to Congress.

The quotes in the Guardian sound a lot more like the John Lewis from that book than this press release. It's difficult to reconcile.

[JDPriestly]

154. I wonder who talked to him and what they said.

[Le Taz Hot]

155. Looks Like The Party

had a little conversation with Rep. Lewis.

[BumRushDaShow]

158. No. Looks like the Guardian engages in "yellow journalism" and gullible folks bought it. nt

[Le Taz Hot]

159. You're new to politics, aren't you?

[BumRushDaShow]

160. No and you're naive about propaganda. nt

[Le Taz Hot]

169. Quite the opposite.

Particularly the domestic type. But you go ahead and keep believing in the purity of the party and the president if it helps you.

[BumRushDaShow]

171. I don't subscribe to woo conspiracy theories or their purveyors. nt

[ProSense]

176. Some can't understand the difference between supporting reform and Snowden. n/t

[BumRushDaShow]

178. Exactly. nt

[Rex]

173. Well well well...

nt.