Right now, seven years after a car model is ended, the manufacturers can stop providing parts

[DainBramaged]

Key parts like engine, body and brake computers, done, NA, start searching Ebay and the junkyards, and reprogramming, not a chance. If you own a mid-90's Corvette and the ABS or suspension computer goes, you're shit out of luck.


Computers control EVERY part of our cars today since 2007, EVERY part. There are your engine and driveline computers, but body computers, radio/alarm computers, computers for the AC, emissions, navigation, I can keep going. And there's NOTHING we can do to stop our cars from being overrun with computers.


Try putting headers on a modern car, the exhaust goes lean and you NEED to reprogram your computers. God forbid you touch anything under the hood OR THE ATTENDANT DOESN'T TIGHTEN THE GAS CAP (or you don't) and the check engine light comes on.

Washington NEEDS to look into forcing ALL auto manufacturers that sell cars in the USA to extend the parts longevity for the current models, or 10 years from now (current average age of a vehicle in America is 11+ years) you are going to need a new car every ten years, period, or a newer used car.


Think about that.

PS

been in the industry since 1966. Back then the aftermarket took care of parts after discontinuance, but they can't today. The CAPA standard will not help you when a computer or critical sensor goes south a decade from now.

http://www.capacertified.org/

[Warren Stupidity]

1. why can't after market manufacturers pick up the slack?

seems like an opportunity. What is the barrier to entry preventing third parties from making replacement parts?

[dballance]

3. I'm going to guess two things.

First, the automakers are most assuredly copyrighting the code in those computers as trade secrets and patenting anything innovative. This puts a pretty high barrier out there for the after-market vendors. With no access to the code that runs those computers it's not any easy thing to reverse-engineer them. That brings me to my second thought. Economics. Even where reverse-engineering those computers and parts becomes practical from a technology standpoint will it be profitable? Will an after-market company be able to sell enough to cover the cost of reverse-engineering?

[bluestate10]

15. God, just design and build another computer. The brakes won't know the fucking

difference. Why do people have to make simple problems seem like they are impossible to solve? Aftermarket parts builders build a wide array of parts. If one part does not sell often, people wanting it simply pay more. A guy holding onto a old corvette should know and accept this fact. Why do people insist on making decisions, then demand that the rest of the world make it easy for them?

[bluestate10]

17. There are no barriers.

When automakers no longer see profits in making parts, there will ALWAYS be some enterprising business that does.

[snooper2]

2. LOL, and people will believe this

1993 CHEVROLET CORVETTE 5.7L V8 OHV : Brake/Wheel Hub : ABS Control Module

STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS Part # ABS1366 {#10098490, 10217761, 10224078, 10233624, 10241014} Reman ABS COMPUTER MODULE - Reman.
OE No. 10241014
$208.79 $54.00 $262.79

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php?carcode=1041332&parttype=1844&a=Search%2Bfor%2BAPWI&ck[ID]=0&ck[idlist]=0&ck[viewcurrency]=USD&ck[PHP_SESSION_ID]=krco4rmgjv9mn705v1hd5mq4u0


For everyone reading this thread, Rockauto.com kicks ass if you want to save money on buying parts-

[loli phabay]

10. yup good website, i am looking at dropping a diesel into toyota fj cruiser

And these guys helped source some suppliers for parts that are way aftermarket if they have not got it.

[rl6214]

77. What deisel are you putting in?

I've got a 76 FJ40 and I put in a Chevy 350 crate engine making 330hp and 350ft lbs of torque. With a Chevy 5spd truck tranny behind it I love it.

[loli phabay]

79. honestly i am not mechanically minded my buddy is the mech, he is doing it for me

I had a hard enough time fitting the snorkel.

[EOTE]

42. That's for C4 Vettes. C5 ABS control modules can be far more difficult to find.

And when they are available, they can be insanely expensive.

[bunnies]

4. My car is 22 years old.

Never had a problem finding parts.

[DainBramaged]

7. If you didn't notice, it's not about "your car"

but that doesn't meant it matters to you.....when you car dies and it's time for another, the next one may not make 22 years.


(bad keyboard, sorry)

[Go Vols]

5. I have a 1949 Ford truck

that I had to put a master cylinder on last year,I went to the parts store and they had it there the next day.I did have to go to more than one parts store to find it though.

[DainBramaged]

12. It's not about 1949 trucks

or do I not write in English?

[Go Vols]

19. It looked to be in English to me

been in the industry since 1966. Back then the aftermarket took care of parts after discontinuance, but they can't today.

It says aftermarket cant supply parts on old vehicles after the OEM quits making them anymore.

[DainBramaged]

26. Computers, it's clear as an azure sky in the OP

[former9thward]

6. A solution where there is no problem.

There is not a problem getting auto parts.

[DainBramaged]

8. You have no idea

none


My Corvette example is repeated daily around the nation for the earliest computer cars from 1987 on. The parts the aftermarket does not want to accept liability on (ABS, engine, emission) doom these cars to the scrapyard every day.

[snooper2]

57. you ignore me at your own cost LOL

http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1986/dodge/daytona/fuel_injection/electronic_control_unit.html

86 1986 Dodge Daytona Electronic Control Unit 2.2L 4 Cyl Turbocharged A1 Cardone

Product SKU: 79-7538
Product Note: Engine Control Computer -- Units are pre-programmed at the factory.; Logic Module; with California Emissions
Inventory: In Stock


Shipping Options:
Ground

[Generic Other]

70. You end up calling junkyards south of town

to replace stuff because the prices quoted are so high for new. My old car was that way. And I kept having to replace a rear side window after repeated break-ins and deductibles. It really does suck that new cars cost so much and have so little value. The people upthread who talk of 1949 models, etc. We know from the Cuban examples that those cars if well-maintained run forever. It is too bad because most of us can't afford any kind of new car. Guess we all need to get vespas.

[jmowreader]

33. Tell my neighbor that

He's got an old Dodge pickup that needs a new ignition box. The obvious solution is to just stick an MSD in it and head down the road but wait! Chrysler in its infinite wisdom decided to put the ignition and transmission computers in the same box.

Anyone know why the transmission in a car so old it's got a factory two-barrel carb needs to be computerized?

[former9thward]

34. How old is the "old Dodge pickup"?

Are car manufacturers obligated to build car parts forever? Wasn't Chrysler gong into bankruptcy twice enough?

[DainBramaged]

36. You don't see it do you?

the average age of an American car (domestic and imported) is 11.5 years, oldest in history.



You think the automakers WANT them to last that long??

[former9thward]

40. I think I see it.

I have a F-150 which is 10 years old and has run without any major problems. I would be happy to keep it another 10. I just don't think car makers should have to make parts forever. I do agree the transition to the 'all computer' car will create problems. On the one hand I don't like the computers. I used to be able to fix cars. Now I can't. On the other hand I don't need to fix anything like I did before. They run much better.

[DainBramaged]

43. Very true

across the board.


Thanks

[jmowreader]

50. It's pre-second-bankruptcy

What we really need is a car version of Univair, a company that makes parts for out-of-production airplanes.

[Tikki]

9. Big trucks are not as popular out here in my part of the CA Central Coast as they...

are elsewhere...but, high mileage and wrecked models of the discontinued Rangers and S10s are being sold off
and piece by piece for parts at a fast pace.

We've had various offers on the two in our drive way...mostly hoping we'll part them out.


The Tikkis

[DainBramaged]

16. Critical parts that aren't new or manufacturers refurbished can't be put on a car in some states

In NJ, you can't put a used ABS component on any car, or a used airbag because of liability (many shops do unfortunately). If a car dealer does work on the ABS or airbag, by Federal law, they have to keep the details/RO for perpetuity.The day will come when those parts are gone, and it's coming soon.

[Tikki]

25. The requests we are hearing ,for parts from our Rangers, is for seats and tail gates and...

interior bits and mechanisms.

Some parts are very expensive bought from manufactures and most use their Rangers as work trucks
and not their status vehicle.

Tikki

[DainBramaged]

31. Window regulators, handles for some, seat tracks, all hard to find or way to expensive as a repo

[bluestate10]

11. There an after market and alternative market for everything under the sun.

The internet has made finding what one wants even easier.

[DainBramaged]

13. Find me a suspension computer for a '94 Corvette for under $1000 if at all

Took a year and I bought on on Ebay from a wreck with no guarantee for $999. It worked two weeks.



The car now sits in a garage because the suspension flatlined and it's too costly to convert it.


Of course when you aren't sitting at my desk it's easy.

[One_Life_To_Give]

38. Did you contact Bilstein?

Looks like they made it so if they don't have the exact part they may have a recommended repair house or current part that will work.

[DainBramaged]

39. Actually, we did , which is why the owner parked the car, we tried to help every way

Trying to gather all the non-computer suspension parts and then replacing with new where possible would make it impossibly expensive as opposed to buying a used one without the suspension.


But, some people get attached and logic fails them...

[Mnpaul]

44. Try car-part.com

You can select by area, price etc. Most yards stand behind their parts.

[Glassunion]

46. It may not be the computer.

When you say it flatlined, what do you mean? Did the suspension drop or did you get the SRC service light on the dash?

[DainBramaged]

47. Don't remember which came first

He asked us too late to help him, way too late, tried to 'fix' it himself originally.

. One of our guys has a pristine '74 Convertible Vette, restored about a dozen years ago.


Sadly, he'll never get a 1/5 of what he spent, since one nicer went for less than 10K on Barrett Jackson last year (I think, may have been this year).


No matter how much you discount labor, in the end, if it isn't a classic worth working on, it isn'y.

[Glassunion]

49. The problem with that car is two-fold.

1. The Corvette is an expensive toy, not matter how you look at it. The base price (cheapest model) of that car is worth about $57k in today's dollars. The options on that car for the suspension setup would go for about $5.8k in today's dollars. So trying to repair that suspension issue for under $1k I think is not even remotely realistic.

2. Its age is not ideal. There is an after market for every niche car out there, but when you are talking a car that is almost 20 years old, you are going to have a hard time finding OEM parts.

Hindsight being 20/20 and all, an aftermarket suspension would have been the way to go, but one should not expect it to be cheap. If the OEM would run you $5.8 in today's money, and you could get away with having a new automatic motosport suspension that exceeds the OEM's capabilities for about 4k, I'd say that would be the way to go. Or for about $2.3k he could have purchased a double-adjustable (manual) setup. Or lastly, for about $350 just by a set of non-adjustable shocks.

My personal feeling is that the computer is not the problem, but the shock system itself, in one of the following areas: One or more bad shocks ($225)- either leaking, worn, or damaged or a damaged gear on the top of the shock, requires new shock ($225) or a failed actuator ($200). I feel this way because, if the computer self test fails, the SRC light will come on and the shocks are commanded to the 30 degree position (a hair firmer than sport bypass starting point), and the vehicle is fine to drive. If the vehicle cannot be driven it is not an issue with the computer, but somewhere in the mechanical suspension.

[rl6214]

78. That's the mistake right there, buying a 94 Corvette

Just kidding, while not as highly sought after as other corvettes, I'd still love to have one.

[MicaelS]

14. This happened to me.

My last car was a 1999 Malibu. Back in late 2010, the BCM crapped out. The local Chevy dealer said then that they could NOT get a replacement BCM from Chevy, since Chevy no longer stocked it. My only choice was a remanufactured part from a third party. But, the dealer would NOT guarantee the part, the labor, or even the fact that the BCM was really the problem. The costs to repair it would have exceeded the book value of the car. So I had no choice but to trade it in for another car. I didn't want to, the Malibu was paid off.

[DainBramaged]

18. And the car went to the scrapyard because the auction houses won't take them

Sorry, but the liability issue popped it's ugly head up and you got tagged.

PS


They were good cars, LOTS still out there. Body control Modules are WAY WAY more complex today. Imagine in 2023 what's going to happen?

[loli phabay]

20. jetpacks and hovervans.

[Quiet_Dem_Mom]

21. Main computer on a 2003 Dodge...3 available nation-wide.

The truck "check engine" light kept coming on even after the initial problem was repaired. The diagnostic was showing the same error code that caused the repair in the first place. The mechanic ran another diagnostic on it and the computer was "freezing" on the same error code over and over again...an indication that the main computer module was starting to quit. If the computer goes, it could kill the vehicle at any moment.

So, after a nation-wide search which netted a whole 3 units to choose from that were compatible with the make/year, he had it express shipped and installed. And, icing on the cake, we were told there'd be no guarantees that the part wasn't refurbished vs. being brand new out of a box.

Yeah, I can believe it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. What's a "refurbished" computer module?

How would one refurbish such a device?

New decals, I suppose.

[DainBramaged]

27. Glass cleaner.....

[Quiet_Dem_Mom]

29. Good question--no idea!

I was too busy trying to rob Peter to pay Paul so I could write a check for the repairs...have to ask the husband if he remembers the distinction. Can you refurbish a vehicle computer the same way you refurbish an iPod or a laptop??? I honestly wouldn't be surprised if glass cleaner was involved!

[MicaelS]

30. The mechanic told me

That is has to be hooked up to a specialist computer / device. The specialist device costs several thousand dollars, and it isn't a PC. Then the unit has to thoroughly tested, electronically and electrically, then wiped, (since it has the data from the car it came from still programmed in it), and then set to where it can be reprogrammed when it is installed the car it is going into.

Note that final programming can't be done until it is actually installed in the car, and synched to the ignition, ABS and other components. And that final programming requires every dealer, or repair shop has one of those specialist computers to do the programming.

[MineralMan]

58. Actually, there are some things that can be done.

There are some discrete components in those modules that can fail, and that can be replaced in a rebuilding process. Other stuff can't be fixed. An example I can think of was the ignition module in some older outboard motors sold by sears. They were great little 9.9 and 15 hp outboards, but the ignition modules failed with some frequency. The problem was a capacitor failing inside the potting material. There was a guy who rebuilt them by digging out the potting material, replacing the capacitor and filling the hole with resin. Eventually, most of those outboards went to the junkyard, and the guy's not doing that any longer. No demand.

I had one that had a failed ignition module. But it was after the guy went out of business. Off to the junkyard it went. Too bad. When it was running, it was a great little outboard motor.

[hunter]

73. The computer in one of our cars is notorious for bad solder joints.

Most people guess the manufacturer was just switching to solders or methods that were less toxic to workers.

Our car worked, but it wouldn't pass smog. In California the state's smog test computers talk to the shop's smog test computer which talks to the car computer. Repair places just wanted to replace the entire module which is a $600 to $800 part.

I found out about the solder issue on the internet, took the thing apart, reflowed the solder on all the suspect joints, and that fixed it.

But it was hours of internet research and labor I'd gladly avoided if I'd had $800 handy.

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. mandate open source ECM's. n/t

[sofa king]

23. DainBramaged, the solution is already among us!

Soon, and I mean much, MUCH sooner than anyone has publicly anticipated, you'll be able to take a thumb-drive into your local 3D printer shop and have your part made for you. I'm talking within five years, maybe ten at most.

If the automakers try to drop the hammer on that practice, you'll still be able to do it by going to the kid in your neighborhood who has his own operation set up in his parents' garage. The machines will proliferate so much faster than law enforcement can stop them that stopping the practice will be as futile as inhibiting the production of crack cocaine is today (crack is limited only by public demand, and that's it).

But by then you're not going to want to do either of those things, because you will be much more inclined to gut your car, smelt the raw materials into ingots, and completely replace its poorly designed engine and drivetrain with better, cheaper, open-source designs that will provide more power, get better mileage, have lower emissions, and be fuel-flexible for a fraction of the cost of one of today's cars.

Additive manufacturing is already only a stone's throw away from perfecting designs that can reproduce virtually all of their own replacement parts, and as soon as that happens the machines will multiply like bacteria in a petri dish, exponentially and totally beyond the control of any government to stop.

The mathematics behind that is, I believe, unassailable, and it's going to change the world virtually overnight, because when the people control the means of production.... of fucking tanks, if they want them... then all bets are off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printing

[DainBramaged]

28. 3D print a memory chip or integrated circuit?

[sofa king]

32. I think so!

Initial designs might be rather silly in application; under the roof and hood of your old Datsun there might be an array of PCBs that would have looked archaic in the 1970s. But even though they take up square meters of space rather than square millimeters at first, they will manage your engine just as well as the circuits that manage your car today.

It's gonna happen. It's going to happen because I have yet to meet an engineer who does not want more and better control over his or her own designs. They will work collectively to realize their individual dreams. This is not a universally good thing, of course, but I am convinced it is inevitable.

[DainBramaged]

35. Not in the remainder of my lifetime

reproducing out of stock electronic car parts, really? At what possible cost to be made of the same heat and RFI resistant materials in today's cars, really? Metal and platinum and copper and silver and gold, really?


(shakes head).

[sofa king]

37. I guess we'll see.

But once it happens, there will be no denying it.

[oldhippie]

45. "But once it happens, there will be no denying it."

Sure there will. This is DU!

[Fumesucker]

48. Tea, Earl Gray, hot

Make it so.

[Heywood J]

52. Probably not as necessary.

Something like an FPGA might be usable.

[MindPilot]

41. Remember that early 80s Chrysler Imperial "hydraulic platform" fuel injection?

All the electronics for the FI mounted IN the air cleaner housing. Real high fail rate (obviously!) No replacements available; you had to pull the unit and send it back to the vendor for repair. That took six to eight weeks while the car sat...waiting.

[jberryhill]

51. Gee, I'm lucky I didn't buy that mid 90's Corvette then

Corvette owners complaining about the price of parts.

No Justice! No Peace!

This, THIS is what is going to shake people out of complacency and into the streets demanding REAL leadership and REAL government BY and FOR the PEOPLE because, godammit, the display drive cable connections in the information unit of the 1999-2002 Saab 900 were not based on a reliable technology, most of the quick fixes only work temporarily, and there is only one god-damned guy in the country with a rig that will sinter those things back on. That's not the HOPE and CHANGE I voted for.

[Glassunion]

53. +1

[lumberjack_jeff]

60. Okay, that there's funny, I don't care who you are. n/t

[MineralMan]

54. The problem is technology, really. Today's cars

are essentially disposable. The various computers and modules, etc., are designed and manufactured for specific models. Obsolete with the next model change, they are the weak points in most cars. Fortunately, they're very reliable, mostly, and the cars manage 200K miles or so without failures of the modules. By that time, the cost of manufacturing new ones on the small production levels that would be required makes it impossible for the auto manufacturers to supply new ones, once the existing old stock is gone. There will never be another module made for the old modules, due to the cost of manufacturing them.

For the engineers, it's another problem. New capabilities and new options for computerization appear constantly, so the modules can't really be designed to serve for several years of models. Nobody knows what new stuff will be in cars five years down the road, and that new stuff will require new modules and computers.

Cars are made for recycling after their planned life cycle. Seven years...ten years...whatever. The manufacturers order enough spares for the computers and modules to cover anticipated demand for some fixed period of time. Once those are gone, that's it. They don't continue making the parts. They order the manufacture of enough of them to meet the estimated demand for whatever life cycle they determine is likely.

And that stuff is expensive. There's a lot of technology in every car now. At some point, the cost of replacing some failed module or another exceeds the value of the vehicle. There aren't many cars any more that will survive as classics, for that very reason. There will not be parts for the techno features in those cars by the time they reach classic status.

That's not a problem for pre-computer cars. The components can be manufactured by aftermarket suppliers easily, since they are mechanical parts, not high-tech electronics. So, you can easily buy parts for high demand classic cars today. You can build a new Model T Ford from scratch, if you want and you can afford all the crap you need. It's all easy to manufacture again, so if there's a demand, it's available.

A 22 year old 'Vette might be a cool car, but if one of its computers dies, there's not enough demand out there for such things to induce an aftermarket company to re-engineer and make another one. Unless the owner can source an NOS one or salvage one, the owner is SOL. GM's not going to make any more of that part. In fact, they made the last one not long after that model was built. When their replacement parts stock is gone, that's it.

Too bad for the owner, but nothing is going to change in how high-tech parts are managed by auto manufacturers. There's nothing in it for them.

[DainBramaged]

55. Well said

thanks!

[MineralMan]

56. My pleasure.

[Lurker Deluxe]

63. Actually, no

You can not build a Model T Ford from scratch, you can build a repilca Model T. And the replica is not worth what the original is.

The same thing can be said for many cars, one well know example is the Shelby Cobra. There are real ones ... and then there are the rest.

Unless you are attempting to maintain the value of a vehicle by keeping it original there is very little reason to do so. You like the way that '94 vette looks? K, put it on a newer frame ... or older one, depending on your skill set or what you would rather have.

There is a guy here at work that is putting a supercharger on a vette of approximently that same year ... crazy task, but that is what he wants to do.

However you would like to accomplish the task is up to you, but doing anything to a 20 year old car is generally not OEM off the shelf.

[Fla Dem]

59. Planned obsolescence. One way to keep the auto factories humming. n/t

[Phentex]

65. Yep, that's how I see it...

hardly anything is made to last anymore. On purpose!

[DainBramaged]

66. TV repair shops, gone, VCR repair, history, computer repair, few and far between

how many gas stations fix cars anymore?

[Phentex]

67. I called a shop about an old camcorder once and

they basically said it would cost more to look at it than the camera was worth.

Printer? forget about it!

[DainBramaged]

68. I forgot camera stores

where I work, there was a camera store that had been in town for 20+ years. GREAT people, always helpful. A few years ago, they decided to try and retire, so they put the building and business up for sale.


One year, no takers, not even a single phone call from a broker from anyone interested in buying the business, just people looking if they were getting rid of old cameras for displays.


A smoothie shop resides there now.


With technology comes obsolescence.

[Glassunion]

61. Question

How long should a manufacturer supply parts after production of a model has stopped? From my understanding, they generally will produce/purchase the spare components during the model run.

[DainBramaged]

64. Personally, critical components should be produced by their suppliers (who make the components)

for at least 7 years after the models are discontinued. Unlike electronic, wher replacement parts for your TV or audio system are a dead issue, a vehicle with critical computers/sensors needs an extended parts lifecycle.


On edit (the joys of work) the manufacturers are required to keep parts they've manufactured for seven after discontinuance, but on the 1st day of the eighth year they can scrap them or wholesale the lot, which happens all the time. But they've depreciated them long before.

[RedRocco]

62. you can replace the ignition and fuel injection computer with one of these

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaSquirt

[MineralMan]

69. Don't try using that in California. First smog inspection

and the car is toast.

[DainBramaged]

71. Absolutely

if it didn't pass CARB, crush the car.


And who pray tell is going to install one anywhere else. I'd never heard of that and I've been in the car business/racer/hot rodder since a teenager.

[MineralMan]

72. That was the first I'd heard of it, too.

I can see using it for engine swaps into older vehicles, I suppose.

When I moved to Minnesota in 2004, from California, I was surprised to learn that MN has no smog checks on older cars. I thought that was everywhere. Back in California, I lost several cars to those smog checks when the costs to make them pass were way beyond the value of the car. I finally went back to cars that were old enough to be exempt. Once we moved to Minnesota, though, I moved to newer cars, which made life simpler, in a way.

Now, we have a nice new car, so, for our second car, I'm looking for something pre-computer for the second car. I'm not in any hurry, and I'll find something interesting before long that has antiquated things like carburetors, a distributor with points and condenser, and crank-up windows. I've spotted a few mid-60s MG Midgets that look interesting, and I know that engine so well that I could almost certainly disassemble one blindfolded, literally. They're not as pricey as some other cars of that vintage, but I've had a couple of Spridgets, including a '59 bugeye Sprite. Can't afford one of those, though.

Just for a second car, used when there's no snow on the ground for errand-running. Yup...that's where I'm headed. The new car has a warranty, and I'm not buying any more cars without one that have CPUs in them. Never again. I lost two of those last year.

[DainBramaged]

74. This

http://uncrate.com/stuff/morgan-threewheeler/

[MineralMan]

75. That'd be cool, for sure, but way beyond my price range.

The other car I lust after is one I've owned two of: A Volvo 544 sedan. Any year would be fine, but post 1963 would have the B18 engine, which I'd prefer over the B16. I've had a 1959 and a 1960.

[lumberjack_jeff]

81. I'd love to have a 122s

One of the best looking cars ever.

Specifically, I want this one.

[MineralMan]

82. I had one. The rare two-door version.

Great little car, until some guy towing a car on a rope totalled it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

80. No smog test in many (most?) counties in Washington. n/t

[rl6214]

76. I own TWO Pontiacs, try finding parts for a company that is no longer in business

Before long it will be like I'm driving an Edsel.