Ezra Klein: President Obama’s news conference today was … weird. (and Snowden is a patriot)

[Luminous Animal]

Binyamin Appelbaum, an economics reporter for the New York Times, summed it up sharply on Twitter: “Obama is really mad at Edward Snowden for forcing us patriots to have this critically important conversation.”

Obama began the news conference by announcing a series of reforms meant to increase the transparency of, and the constraints on, the National Security Agency’s surveillance programs. They included reforms to Section 215 of the Patriot Act, which enables the collection of telephone metadata; changes to the powerful surveillance courts to ensure ”that the government’s position is challenged by an adversary”; declassification of key NSA documents; and the formation of “a high-level group of outside experts to review our entire intelligence and communications technologies.”

“What makes us different from other countries is not simply our ability to secure our nation,” Obama said. “It’s the way we do it, with open debate and democratic process.”

If that’s so, then Edward Snowden should be hailed as a hero. There’s simply no doubt that his leaks led to more open debate and more democratic process than would’ve existed otherwise.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/08/09/edward-snowden-patriot/

[ProSense]

1. "If that’s so, then Edward Snowden should be hailed as a hero."

No, and Ezra Klein clearly doesn't understand the charges against Snowden.

[sulphurdunn]

24. I believe Snowden

has been charged with several violations of Title 18 of the United States Code. Klein certainly knows that. Since the de facto suspension of habeas corpus and the Bill of Rights, Title 18 is not really the primary issue.

[George II]

34. "...the de facto suspension of habeas corpus and the Bill of Rights..."

In what way?

[sabrina 1]

48. Have you ever heard of Guantanamo Bay? Extra-judicial assassinations

of American citizens? Secret warrants, secret courts, secret kill lists?

[George II]

57. Give me a F-ing break!

[sabrina 1]

61. I'd rather give the victims of all these abuses a break, that's what we've

been working for over a decade now.

You asked a question, I answered it, if you disagree with anything I said, I didn't see you do so.

Hard to deny the undeniable.

[Enthusiast]

62. You win.................nt

[George II]

89. Okay......

Yes, I've heard of Guantanamo Bay - how many Americans are imprisoned there?
Yes, I've heard of ONE "extra-judicial assassination of ONE American citizen" - not in the US though, and he was working with al Qaeda to plot another attack on this country
No, I haven't heard of any "secret warrants, secret courts, secret kill lists"

There, happy?

So back to my post to which you responded above. Habeus Corpus and the Bill of Rights? I repeat, in what way?

[sabrina 1]

91. Habeas Corpus? Where have you been? And what on earth difference does it make

when a country kidnaps people, whether they are Americans or Brits, Canadians, Afghans, French and hides them away in a gulag, denies them Habeas Corpus, denies them trials, even CHARGES. For YEARS. Tortures them, refuse to allow them to talk to their attorneys, to see their or contact their families, refuses to let them go even AFTER admitting they did nothing wrong.

If that's YOUR kind of country, I can give you a list, but this isn't supposed to be one of them.

Two US citizens, one a 16 year old child. If that's okay with you, I can't even think of a country I can refer you to.

What were the charges against Al Awlaki? I have asked this question over and over again and all I get is 'he was planning this or that'. Really? Got anything to prove these assertions? We just skip due process now and to right to the Death Penalty? And 'they were not here in the US'. Are you SERIOUS?

Obama has stated that he has a 'secret kill list'. You missed that also?

I don't recognize this country. We elected Democrats to end all of this. Did you??

[sulphurdunn]

95. "One extra-judicial assasination

of one American citizen." You have answered your own question.

[sulphurdunn]

66. The Supreme Court

struck down section 7 of the Military Commissions Act (MCA) in 2008, essentially restoring the right of Habeas Corpus. The National Authorization Defense Act of 2012 (NADC) restores indefinite detention using a different argument.

http://www.salon.com/2008/06/12/boumediene/

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-suspension-of-habeas-corpus-in-america/5311701

http://www.aclu.org/indefinite-detention-endless-worldwide-war-and-2012-national-defense-authorization-act

Suspension of habeas corpus makes enforcement of Amendments V, VI and VIII unenforceable. Unrestricted surveillance of Americans negates Amendment IV, and the use of police power to crush peaceful demonstrations, imprison whistle blowers and journalists shreds Amendment I.

Nothing in the Constitution authorizes Congress or the President to amend the Bill of Rights other than by the procedures set forth in Article V.

[George II]

90. Okay, so how specifically has the Obama administration amended the Bill of Rights, or violated it?

[RetroLounge]

51. Oh, poor Ezra, stuffed under the bus with so many others

Luckily you are here to set us all straight.



RL

[leftstreet]

2. Next time Obama - lead, don't follow

If Obama believes the 'conversation' and changes would have happened absent Snowden, then he should have gotten it done

DURec

[Luminous Animal]

3. Yep.

[HardTimes99]

64. Obama is too busy looking forward, not backward, to bother his magnificent mind

with such petty matters.

(in case it's needed)

[reformist2]

67. In 2008, candidate Obama would be talking about dismantling the domestic spying program!

The 2013 version has been coopted, sadly. So much for his constitutional law background.

[Safetykitten]

4. He really is in some other world/dimension that most of us never see...

“What makes us different from other countries is not simply our ability to secure our nation,” Obama said. “It’s the way we do it, with open debate and democratic process.”

[SomethingFishy]

6. So when we "accidentally" drop some open debate

and democratic process on some brown people don't complain, because that's the way we roll!

[Marr]

26. "So like, I'm going to throw this latest whistleblower in prison, and

you guys can talk about it."

FREEDUMB!

[sabrina 1]

49. Has he ever spoken to Ron Wyden I wonder? 'open debate and

democratic process'. I don't know how he can say that with a straight face. We have secret courts issuing secret warrants. We have secret 'kill lists' and a secret drone war in several countries going on.

We have Members of Congress demanding to know what the NSA and their satelllites, the hundreds of Multi-Million Dollar Private Security Corps, are up to.

Even Members of Congress cannot find out what is going on, and those who do and want to be able to talk about, will not be allowed to do so.

[Enrique]

5. there's no way around that contradiction

i haven't seen the news conference yet, is it the kind of news conference where reporters ask questions? If so, did anyone ask the President about that contradiction?

[KoKo]

69. Full Transcript and Video's of POB's Presser Yesterday...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/transcript-president-obamas-august-9-2013-news-conference-at-the-white-house/2013/08/09/5a6c21e8-011c-11e3-9a3e-916de805f65d_story_1.html

ALERT: Don't watch the videos or read if you are depressed...

[Egnever]

7. "forcing us patriots"

Just fuck you is all I can think when I hear this kind of crap after the years we put up with the same BS when bush was in office.

Yes everyone who disagrees with your opinion is a traitor...

FU

[randome]

17. That was quite a self-serving phrase, wasn't it?

And these are changes Obama put into motion in May, before the world heard of Snowden.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Californeeway]

81. Absolutism is for idiots

what bothers me most about this whole thing is the idea that we have now no choice but to adopt wholesale Glen Greenwald's Libertarian vision for America and reject Obama on every other issue no matter how unrelated to the NSA it may be. And any questioning of that makes you an "authoritarian." I mean, how long is it going to take for these people to figure out they are being rat-fucked?

[msongs]

8. nixon also had to be forced to come clean while he used spin to try and bury his actions deeper nt

[Egnever]

10. So Ironic

as it was Nixons actions that resulted in FISA being created in the first place.

[Egnever]

9. "There’s simply no doubt that his leaks led to more open debate"

Right cause all the leaks that came before it fell on deaf ears. What is the difference now from all the other times the info was leaked?

Couldn't be a black democrat holding the office could it?

[Maedhros]

13. The important thing is that the unconstitutional NSA programs are now being looked at very closely.

But, to you, the only important thing is that doing so makes the President look bad. As if we should continue to ignore the problem just because Obama is President.

Ignoring problems didn't help much with the last Administration, and it's not helping much now. Preserving our collective civil liberties are more important than shielding a politician from criticism.

[Egnever]

39. apparently the important thing is to spew stuff as fact

I have yet to see anything stating that it is unconstitutional. The best I have seen is accusations claiming it is, based on speculation.

I am all for a discussion of what is and isn't going on at the NSA but that's not what we are getting at all.

Again snowdens info is not new I can link to lots of articles starting as early as 2002 all discussing the same stuff. What all of a sudden makes this a big story?

I agree there needs to be discussion of what is appropriate oversight for these programs but I have yet to see any proof that appropriate oversight is not in place. When it was being done without warrants I was much more concerned about it.

I have no problem with even more oversight than there is currently. But pretending what is going on currently is unconstitutional in the face of the history of court rulings on the subject I find to be either grossly misinformed or purposely belligerent.

Feel free to rant and rave now about how I lick Obama's boots or other such drivel

[Maedhros]

41. "What all of a sudden makes this a big story?"

Who cares?

Yes, it should have been a big issue in 2002. Many, including myself, were pissed off about it then. And I am even more pissed off about it NOW.

Just because something bad has been in place for ten years doesn't mean we should shrug our shoulders and just accept it. If people took 10+ years to get outraged about NSA surveillance, as Progressives we should celebrate that we've finally been able to mobilize opposition to fascistic policies.

Why try and nay-say opposition to NSA surveillance? If we are all Democrats, then we should all be opposed to this program. At least, Democrats have historically been against such things. Maybe that is changing?

[Egnever]

43. Considering Ted Kenedy and Jimmy Carter put the NSA in place in the first place.

I would have to say the idea that democrats have historically been against it is on its face false.

Quite honestly the more I have learned about the NSA and its history, mostly because of this debate, the less and less concerned I have become.

Mostly I care because of the amount of outright fabrication that has swirled around this story. I thought Democrats were supposed to be the reality based party...What I see is a lot of hair on fire reactionary garbage drowning out any real discussion of the facts.

[Maedhros]

46. Try again.

The NSA was created in 1952 by Harry Truman.

The predecessor of the National Security Agency was the Armed Forces Security Agency (AFSA), created on May 20, 1949.[16] This organization was originally established within the U.S. Department of Defense under the command of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.[16] The AFSA was to direct Department of Defense communications and electronic intelligence activities, except those of U.S. military intelligence units.[16] AFSA failed to achieve a centralized communications intelligence mechanism, and failed to coordinate with civilian agencies that shared its interests (the Department of State, CIA, and FBI).[16]

In December 1951, President Harry S. Truman ordered a study to correct AFSA's failures. Six months later, the four members finished and issued the Brownell Report, which criticized AFSA, strengthened it and resulted in its redesignation as the National Security Agency.[17] The agency was formally established by Truman in a memorandum of October 24, 1952, that revised National Security Council Intelligence Directive (NSCID) 9.[18] Truman's memo was later declassified.[18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency

So why should I pay attention to anything you say in your post?

The evidence showing that the intelligence agencies in America are out-of-control is, at this point, overwhelming. Your feeble attempts to try and trick people into pretending otherwise are nothing more than bald-faced propaganda.

Welcome to the ignore list!

[Egnever]

47. You are right My acronyms were misplaced.

It was FISA, which of course is what all of this is about, that was put in place by Kenedy and Carter. Not the NSA my mistake.

But when you resort to the bald faced propaganda line you are exactly the problem I am talking about. No discussion just hair on fire reactionary BS.

[blackspade]

58. This is one of the most tired retread statements that I have seen at DU lately

I thought Democrats were supposed to be the reality based party...What I see is a lot of hair on fire reactionary garbage drowning out any real discussion of the facts.

This is just another attempt to stifle discussion by bullying.

[blackspade]

55. +1000

[questionseverything]

73. klein hosted on msnbc last night

a debate between robert gibbs and a reporter ...he let every1 speak and gibbs did as good a job as possible defending this program BUT
it is the collection of the "haystack" that is illegal and unconstitutional

as i watch my 4 year old granddaughter playing dora games on the computer i think...well is this where her "haystack "starts and i know in my heart if every electronic communication she every writes is "collected" then she is not a free person

[Californeeway]

82. from some perspectives

ensuring that the Obama presidency is successful and thus is able to act as a spring board for another hopefully more Liberal Democratic president after him and another after that is on the same level of importance as limiting the surveillance programs if not more important. This is because the NSA is not the only issue that matters, no matter how much certain DUers want to convince us otherwise. Given the fact that Obama just gave a speech throwing his support behind the safeguards people are asking for, the virulent anti-Obama vibe actually becomes a hindrance rather than a means to the goal Snowden followers say they seek. Keep in mind that none of this has to do with Obama the man, but Obama the place-holder and symbol, but the ramifications of tearing down this presidency the way so many self-proclaimed Liberals say they want to do, would actually be an incredible blow to the advancement of Liberalism in general for decades to come whether they want to see that or not.

[Maedhros]

83. I can see that argument, but for one thing:

The trend has been that Democratic Presidents have become less and less liberal.

For example, Obama points to the Reagan Presidency as a great step forward:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/16/obama-compares-himself-to_n_81835.html

"I don't want to present myself as some sort of singular figure. I think part of what is different is the times. I do think that, for example, the 1980 election was different. I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it. They felt like with all the excesses of the 60s and the 70s and government had grown and grown but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating. I think he tapped into what people were already feeling. Which is we want clarity, we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing."

I don't post it here to imply that Obama is indistinguishable from Reagan, but it is disquieting to see a purportedly "Liberal" President holding up Reagan as a transformative figure.

[Californeeway]

85. you've got a good point

but to be fair, I always thought Obama said that to rile Bill Clinton and trick him into saying stupid shit to hurt Hillary (It worked by the way). Remember, Obama and Hillary were in a death match at that point.

[Maedhros]

86. Maybe.

But the trend in the White House is mirrored in the Congress/Senate. Case in point: the number of Democrats that voted for the war in Iraq and renewing the Patriot Act.

[Californeeway]

87. I see what you are saying

It bothers me too.

I consider Obama a centrist, It's what I expected from the beginning but he will be labeled as a Liberal by most if only because of the ACA. If he leaves office looking like a success, that success will reflect on all Liberals and advance Liberal causes across the spectrum. At least this is what I hope for.

[Maedhros]

88. I see the possibility of a whole raft of "Obama Republicans' switching sides

much like the "Reagan Democrats" in the early 80s. This may ensure the Democratic Party the upper hand in Congress, but the policies will still be center-right and ultimately harmful to the poor, working and middle classes.

[rury]

28. Yes, the attacks are being leveled against President Obama

BECAUSE he is a black Democrat holding the office.
No other reason.
I am so glad to see President Obama say that Snowden is not a patriot.
Damn right he is no patriot.
He leaked classified information and then tucked his tail between his legs and fled like the racist coward that he is.
Now he is holed up after bring granted "asylum" in a country that is far more repressive than ours.
He is a scurrilous traitor.
President Obama is the patriot here!!

[Maedhros]

42. But I'm not attacking the President.

I'm attacking the policy.

[Egnever]

45. What is it about the policy that upsets you?

[rhett o rick]

50. Oh plez. My problem is with Gen Clapper and he isnt black. Your over use of the

race card disqualifies you for further discussion.

“What makes us different from other countries is not simply our ability to secure our nation,” Obama said. “It’s the way we do it, with open debate and democratic process.” So is this a lie or simply rhetoric? What "open debate"? There was no debate, no discussion before Snowden. Can you spell disingenuous?

[blackspade]

59. Simplistic drivel

BECAUSE he is a black Democrat holding the office.
No other reason.

There is no evidence of this at DU.
So, give it a rest.

[totodeinhere]

76. Oh come on. Every president is attacked. That comes with the job.

And President Obama I'm sure realized that before he took office. Look at the plethora of vicious attacks leveled at President Clinton. You can't just trot out the race card every time that the president gets attacked or criticized. Look at the substance of the criticism. Don't just have a knee jerk reaction that it must be racism. There are plenty of long time posters at this site who don't have a racist bone in their bodies who have criticized the president over some issue from time to time.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

78. Didn't take long.

But there it is folks.

[Th1onein]

56. You might be absolutely correct. BUT.

It is what it is. And Obama should have taken care of this, AS HE PROMISED. We shouldn't have to be having this conversation right now, if he had done AS HE PROMISED.

[CakeGrrl]

11. What Klein

and others really want is to try to elevate Snowden's status as the one who "bested" the President.

Cue the "patriot" scorecard. Now that POTUS has stated his opinion that Snowden is NOT, watch the mad scramble here to pile up the opinions that he IS, for the main purpose of, once again, doing an in-your-face to the President.

Leaker who cuts and runs to Russia > NOT "patriot".

[DisgustipatedinCA]

14. Ezra Klein has long been in favor of Obama

Just like many of us here. Now you're telling me that what he wants is to elevate Snowden's status in order to make the President look bad. If you wish to be taken as a serious person, you may want to try to bridge that quantum leap of logic that you've made and explain why you think it is that Mr. Klein has done a 180 in terms of the President.

[KoKo]

25. Yes...it was interesting to see Ezra Questioning..

Lots of them knowing their communications were "TAPPED" for years...tended to "tow the line" to not make waves. They have to feed kids or parents along with feeding themselves.

But, one by one...I start to see Reports NOW coming out in support of the Information that Snowden Revealed...which they all probably knew about...but, really couldn't report on because it would jeopardize their standing and hurt their income..thereby hurting their families.

I think Snowden "UNLOCKED THE LOCK BOX" and it's freed those who've had "inner conflicts" but could NOT reveal the info they were given because they knew they were being Surveilled.

Let's hope that More come out!

[zeemike]

15. "cuts and runs "

A right wing meme that goes back to the Viet Nam war.

And yes there is a conspericy to bring down the president...and all of this is just lies to get in his face...

[CakeGrrl]

19. Oh good grief

So that you don't have a freakout over memes just to deflect from Snowden criticism, let's just go with "fugitive lawbreaker who fled to Russia". That works.

[ProSense]

22. Ezra's response is what's weird

Did anyone really believe the President was going to hail Snowden as a "hero"?

Also, the President addressed Snowden, but the press conference was about NSA reforms. Ezra decides the press conference was "weird" because he didn't get the reaction to Snowden he was expecting.

It's hilarious.

[HardTimes99]

65. Obama threw his pastor (Rev. Wright) under the bus, for God's sake. There was no way he would hail

Snowden as a 'hero.' It's been many, many years since Obama has had any personal acquaintance with anyone justly holding that title.

[xocet]

30. You are being inaccurate in your statement....

Your use of "fled to Russia" is unjustified. Unless Snowden's passport is reinstated, Russia is just the current endpoint of his present travels.

[deurbano]

27. Why would Klein want to do that? I haven't read much Klein, but always got the impression that

he was considered a supporter and defender of President Obama. Maybe Klein just disagrees with the president on this.

[AppleBottom]

94. Yeah I'm getting sick of that willful ignorance on how Snowden

Wound up stuck in Russia, it completely dishonest. Decent human beings should feel shame when they tell such lies.

[grasswire]

29. this is sounding way too CT

Klein wants to elevate someone to "best" Obama?

Come on. This is La La Land stuff. Seriously. It sounds just like what the Freepers used to say about the "liberal media" in the Bush years.

[Californeeway]

84. I get the feeling that for most people this is about

making Obama look stupid. Their motivations are certainly for a myriad of reasons, but I think most of it is misguided Liberals who think mistakenly that tearing down Obama for not being a good enough Liberal somehow advances Liberalism. I think it does just the opposite. Luckily I think they will ultimately fail.

[silvershadow]

12. That's the understatement of the year. nt

[WillyT]

16. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[pnwmom]

18. I'm not going to hail him as a hero because he didn't limit himself to leaking about US

internal surveillance.

He went on to leak about US spying on China and Russia, and he leaked -- by his account -- thousands of unknown documents to Greenwald and nobody-knows-who-else. Bad form.

[CakeGrrl]

20. To paraphrase an excellent rebuttal,

he's as much a 'hero' as the thief who forces a homeowner to upgrade their security system.

[forestpath]

21. K&R

[arely staircase]

23. snowden gave intel to the chinese that had nothing to do with US domestic activities

snowden is under the protection of the KGB

snowden is a traitor

[DirkGently]

31. I don't think "patriot" and "traitor" mean what Obama thinks they mean. n/t

[mc51tc]

32. From Michael Moore`s Website - a little sarcasm

regarding today`s press conference.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/

'We'd Have Had an Awesome
Debate on the NSA if It Weren't
For That Meddling Snowden!'

"Barack 'Grumpy-Face' Obama explains to us in irritated voice that he
definitely wanted to have a great public discussion about the NSA
before Edward Snowden went and ruined everything"

[Luminous Animal]

35. +1

[rhett o rick]

53. What's worse than a lying Republican? A lying Democrat. Just sayin. nm

[Enthusiast]

63. That's funny! n/t

[otohara]

33. Always Includes An Insult

Towards POTUS.

Can't write an article without one.

[Luminous Animal]

36. Klein is solidly pro-Obama. This column has taken a lot of his readers by surprise.

[nashville_brook]

37. it sucks when you have to address the nation with bad facts,

and still try to paint a happy face on it. "oh yeah, we're all democratically patriotic and stuff...but this snowden guy, he's the wrong kind of patriot." and "we would have 'had this conversation anyway,' except for the part about not having that conversation anyway, b/c it's all secret."

[Spider Jerusalem]

38. "what makes us different from other countries"...

is our ability to believe we're awesomely special and unique and swallow lots of bullshit that says so, apparently. Three cheers for ugly Americanism and American exceptionalism, I guess.

[burnodo]

40. "with open debate and democratic process"

Ya. Like single-payer healthcare.

[morningfog]

44. Some sly double-speak there.

[rhett o rick]

52. You mean like this? “What makes us different from other countries is not simply our ability to

secure our nation,” Obama said. “It’s the way we do it, with open debate and democratic process.”

There were no "open debate and democratic process" before Snowden. And if Obama has his way, Snowden would have been stifled and we never would be talking about fucking "open debate and democratic process."

Once Obama said he wanted the Patriot Act repealed.

[blackspade]

54. Ouch.

That is not an opinion that some here at DU are going to like.

[markpkessinger]

68. When EZRA KLEIN, of all people, calls the President out for trying to have it both ways . . .

. . . then you KNOW the President's got a problem.

[kelliekat44]

72. No, then you know who Ezra Klein really is. nt

[frylock]

77. he never really loved him

[pscot]

70. K&R

[mick063]

71. I'm for an open debate

To repeal the Patriot Act.

The last campaign, I was led to believe that Al Qaeda was decimated and on the run, yet the infrastructure to combat terrorism continues to grow.

This infrastructure will not willfully remain idle. Indeed, it must continuously create justification for existence and growth.

The future is predictable. The definition of terrorist will change. The definition of security will change. The definition of surveillance will change. The interpretation of the Constitution will change. The political talking points will change.

All done to justify the existence of a surveillance state. All done to funnel money into a means to control citizenship.

People that defend the current structure argue in defense of what it is now. People that dissent from the current structure argue against how it will predictably evolve.


Take a look at how the architects of the Patriot Act are saying that the law is not being implemented as intended to see what a mere decade can do. Now imagine a century worth of evolution.

[dreamnightwind]

80. Exactly right

It's apparently difficult for some people to see down the road.

Shocking to me to see people here defending this as an extension of their defense of anything Obama. That's some small thinking IMHO.

I honestly think it's much bigger than Obama, and that he doesn't want the problems he'll get by scrutinizing these forces. It's no excuse, he campaigned hard for the job of POTUS, including saying many things about the surveillance state that he has reversed himself on, so he deserves little sympathy, but I can at least understand being afraid of the consequences.

Seeing people like Clapper, Comey, Petraeus, and Gates, to name a few, in positions of power under Obama makes me think the security establishment is running the show, and they tolerate some functions of government being run by POTUS and Congress. But the "important" things, like foreign policy and domestic control, seem to controlled by forces that don't change much under Democrats and Republicans, ad that's a huge problem.

I remember back when Sy Hersch came out with a seemingly bizarre accusation that a secret cabal of people (he said they were dominionists) working at the JCOS was running things. I don't know if he was exactly right, still much we don't know, but his allegations have more context now, and I suspect he was at least partially correct.

[cantbeserious]

74. Leading From Behind - A Predictable Pattern - Now, Maybe The Follow Through

eom

[DeSwiss]

75. I find it quite bizarre......

...Obama (or anyone else for that matter), suggesting that we calmly discuss and come to some understanding about the death blows he and the prior administration have delivered to constitutional government.

- It's as if he's saying: ''He's sure that in our ''democracy'' we can come to some agreement on our partial enslavement and loss of rights which everyone can agree on......''

K&R

[chervilant]

79. Interesting,

and gifted use of language to proffer a vague, but noble sounding tenet.

“What makes us different from other countries is not simply our ability to secure our nation,” Obama said. “It’s the way we do it, with open debate and democratic process.”

It is precisely because we're learning the actual extent of our nation's surveillance on its citizenry that warrants Mr. Snowden's whistleblowing. I find it grimly astonishing that Snowden's intent, his alleged character defects, his consequences, and his patriotism are fuel for the sanctimonious assertions re: his cowardice that proliferate on a Democratic website.

[DirkGently]

92. Ezra nailed this. His panel discussion subbing for Hayes was on fire last night.

It was hilarious watching Gibbs sputter and try to run the strawman about "They're listening to everyone's phone calls" up the flagpole so he could shoot it down. They called him on it instantly.

"I think you're responding to a meme, Robert."

[moondust]

93. Guest on AllIn w/Ezra: "Have these powers been abused? I don't think we really know."

Elizabeth Goitein from the Brennan Center for Justice

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/all-in-/52718831

Starting around 8:00.