Snowden findings corroborated by second whistleblower

[kpete]

FRI AUG 09, 2013 AT 11:25 AM PDT
Snowden findings corroborated by second whistleblower
bysmartalexFollow

This is a short diary responding to the idea that Snowden's allegations of easy NSA wiretapping of public officials is made up in his own mind.

In fact, for those who have been watching this closely, a second NSA whistleblower has corroborated the allegation, and provided more, but nobody's mentioning him in the discussions today. His name is Russell Tice.

Tice is a former NSA analyst who blew the whistle on massive FISA violations...in 2005. After Snowden went public, he gave an interview to Sibel Edmonds (an FBI whistleblower turned journalist), including the following quotes:
http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/06/19/podcast-show-112-nsa-whistleblower-goes-on-record-reveals-new-information-names-culprits/

In the summer of 2004, one of the papers that I held in my hand was to wiretap a bunch of numbers associated with a 40-something-year-old wannabe senator for Illinois. You wouldn't happen to know where that guy lives right now would you? It's a big white house in Washington, D.C. That's who they went after, and that's the president of the United States now.

....................

"Okay. They went after members of Congress, both Senate and the House, especially on the intelligence committees and on the armed services committees and judicial. But they went after other ones, too. They went after heaps of lawyers and law firms. They went after judges. One of the judges is now sitting on the Supreme Court that I had his wiretap information in my hand. Two are former FISA court judges. They went after State Department officials. They went after people in the White House–their own people. They went after antiwar groups. They went after U.S. companies that that do business around the world. They went after U.S. banking firms and financial firms that do international business. They went after NGOs like the Red Cross that that go overseas and do humanitarian work. They went after a few antiwar civil rights groups.

So, you know, don’t tell me that there’s no abuse, because I’ve had this stuff in my hand and looked at it."

..........................


[font color=red]What Snowden provided was not new allegations, but proof from top secret internal documents of allegations already out there.[/font]



more:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/09/1230112/-Snowden-findings-corroborated-by-second-whistleblower

[Mojorabbit]

1. Great article. Thanks! nt

[rhett o rick]

2. k&r thanks for posting. nm

[cascadiance]

3. Look at this episode of Democracy Now from January 3, 2006 that has an interview with Tice...

It's kind of scary to watch this whole episode with so many similarities to the concerns that are being voiced today about the actions of the NSA and other security agencies. It's not hard to see how Tice would agree with Snowden, when he was basically saying the same thing (minus the documents that Snowden released) back then.

http://www.democracynow.org/2006/1/3/exclusive_national_security_agency_whistleblower_warns

Amy Goodman's interview with Tice starts about the 17 minute mark.

[snappyturtle]

14. Excellent video. Thankyou. nt

[Recursion]

4. The entire legal structure changed between Tice and Snowden

How is what happened in 2005, the stuff that prompted the 2008 FISA amendment, important?

[randome]

5. Mr. Tice last worked for the NSA in 2005. During the Bush Jr. Era.

And each year he comes out with more 'revelations'. I don't find him credible any longer. Anyone can talk just as anyone can type something up on a public message forum.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[kardonb]

7. tice

just a copy-cat publicity hound .

[randome]

10. I don't know, maybe he THINKS he knows stuff but he doesn't come across very well to me.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[chimpymustgo]

59. And what do YOU know? You seem to only believe the lies Obama tells you. Volumes of reporting,

analysis, internal documents, you name it.

You hold fast to your "gut theories".

Wow. It is baffling.

[leveymg]

101. Russ Tice knows what he did, himself, personally - listen 2 calls of prominent politicians, judges,

generals, etc., after hours. He was told by higher-ups at NSA that it was Cheney who ordered it. I don't think Tice is making that stuff up.

Russ has a serious case of stage fright and is intensely uncomfortable in front of the camera. He's much more articulate when you talk to him one-on-one with no microphones. Ironic, that, for someone who was in the surveillance business.

[another_liberal]

15. Oh sure.

"Nothing to see here folks. Just move along now. Nothing to see here."

[KoKo]

17. Really? Can your verify Your Access to NSA? Do you work for the Government?

If you can't verify what you say without a LINK or any independent Opinion to back you up...then DUH?

[randome]

34. So why would Tice be coming out with this now, eight years later?

That sets a tiny alarm bell ringing in the back of my head.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Octafish]

63. DU was talking about TICE and NSA spying back then.

Last edited Sat Aug 10, 2013, 09:27 AM - Edit history (1)

4 t 4:

Russell Tice

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4883922


1776 Forever:

Raw Story - Whistleblower: NSA spied on everyone, targeted journalists

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x418731


Robert Paulsen:

Are you one of the 8 million Americans listed in Main Core? This is the 21st century Rex 84!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3310871

[randome]

70. His eight-year-old assertions corroborate nothing, however.

The changes made to the Patriot Act were to specifically prevent the kind of abuse he spoke about back then.

So why are some bringing this old video out now if not to try and discredit the President?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Octafish]

76. Other than Snowden?

Which is why I posted the links. As for President Obama, I think he is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.

[Rex]

88. LOL!

It is like knocking balls out of the park in a game of T-ball! Have you ever seen such sloppy CYA?

[sabrina 1]

25. And nothing changed, in fact it looks like, as anyone with a brain would

expect since no one was ever held accountable, it is worse today.

I assume you are not saying that what Tice stated is okay because 'it's old news'???

Obviously there are people other than Snowden and Tice who are extremely concerned, people who have some idea of what is still going on. People like Ron Wyden who has been trying to warn the American people for a very long time.

And finally, after all the warnings we have been getting, from other Whistle Blowers, from members of Congress, with nothing being done, at least now it is out in the open again and it is clear that something must be done about it.

The President appears to understand that now. But words won't be enough anymore. He knows that Congress is going ahead with bills to begin to address these egregious abuses put in place by Bush and I hope he is not hoping that his statements today will stall those bills. They should NOT and he should join those members of Congress in finally getting started to begin to dismantle this enormous threat to this democracy.

[randome]

35. The egregious abuses were stopped by Obama in case you have forgotten.

Snowden and Greenwald and Tice can all talk a nice game but not one of them has evidence. Until I see evidence, it's all just talk to me.

Anyone can talk. Anyone can post on a public forum.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[sabrina 1]

36. I saw the evidence, and so did members of Congress. And today,

Obama has acknowledged that the 'leaks sped things up' meaning things that needed to be addressed.

So take it up with Members of Congress, the President and the millions of other people who saw SOME of the evidence so far, and hope to see more, that you somehow missed.

As I told you so many times before, you need to change your sources.

[alc]

66. what if the evidence you want arrives in the form of "President Palin"?

It may be better to ensure the NSA doesn't have access to data on all candidates, donors, election supervisors and more before they "help" select a president who will encourage them to go wild and a congress that will look the other way.

I'm not ok saying that "I don't believe they'll misuse the data so it's ok". I don't even want them to have the data that could be misused. And I think anyone who believes they don't have the data either has their head in the sand or up their ass.

[randome]

69. What is your solution, then? No spying ever?

Nothing prevents law enforcement from abusing their positions of authority. No law, no rule will stop people from doing whatever they want.

The only thing we have is laws and regulations to make it more difficult. Even Carl Bernstein said it looked to him as if the NSA procedures are pretty secure and I agree with that. They have 4 levels of approval necessary before data can be viewed.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[appal_jack]

77. My (wait, no, OUR) solutions are the 4th, 5th, & 6th Amendments.

My (wait, no, OUR) solutions are the 4th, 5th, & 6th Amendments.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

It's not up to me (or any American) to devise solutions above and beyond this. The Constitution is already the Supreme Law of the Land. It's up to our government to abide by and uphold these laws. People who do otherwise are the real traitors.

-app

[randome]

80. Metadata phone records are not part of your personal effects.

So 4th Amendment protections do not apply. You want to change that? I'm fine with it.

But as the law stands currently, it is not illegal for the government to store copies of these records.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[appal_jack]

105. Metadata collection is not 1/10 of the problem, and you should know this.

Metadata collection is not 1/10 of the problem, and you should know this. The NSA is sharing more than metadata with the DEA, otherwise the "parallel construction" of prosecutorial evidence would hardly be necessary.

Furthermore, if we could resurrect the Founders I am sure, once we brought them up to speed on cyberspace and modern IT, they would agree that metadata is certainly part of our papers & effects. The fact that unconstitutional laws and policies have evolved over the past twenty+ years is not evidence that they are right, proper, or conforming with the Constitution.

-app

[JDPriestly]

37. That video is from 2006. So what he said there, he knew in 2005.

He didn't really say a lot but let it be known that he knew much more than he said in that interview.

[randome]

56. Oh. Well, that has even less to do with the changes made since then.

Why is this being trotted out now if not to try and damage the President?

More misleading phrasing. 'Corroboration' comes after an event, not eight years prior.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[questionseverything]

85. Why is this being trotted out now if not to try and damage the President?

IT DOES NOT HAVE TO DAMAGE CURRENT ADMIN...IF he stops this illegal collection" the haystack" he will be remembered as a hero for generations to come

[randome]

92. He says there is no illegal collection being done.How can he stop something that doesn't occur?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[DisgustipatedinCA]

40. Your agenda won't permit you to find him credible any longer

This is the way things work, so much so that your words were entirely predictable. You need to believe what you need to believe. And you will.

[randome]

55. I need to see evidence, that's all.

I have changed my position on Senator Warren's electability. I have changed my position on nuclear power.

I will change my position on the NSA if anyone provides evidence instead of vague claims.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[morningfog]

64. Well, if you don't find him credible any longer,

He is probably spot on.

[Coyotl]

72. Good thing we have a whistleblower from back then too, to hang this program on the Bush Junta

A former NSA employee and whistleblower on Bush's illegal spying is not an "anyone" typing away on the internet! Logic fails you there

[Progressive dog]

79. ^^K&R^^nt

[niyad]

6. k and r and thank you for the reminder

[freedom fighter jh]

8. "They went after"

To "go after" someone could mean to threaten them with either (a) something from their file or (b) something that could be in their file but isn't; since we hold all the info no one will know if we make it up. Or it could mean to threaten their welfare or the welfare of someone close to them because, well, we can; we control that much information.

That's blackmail and threats. With those tools we can control people.

Great find, kpete. What Tice adds to the conversation is the blackmail aspect, which ties it all together. This is why they gather so much data: so they can blackmail and threaten everyone.

[sabrina 1]

26. Exactly, this could be blackmail, and we have to wonder how many

HAVE been blackmailed and simply decided that running for office was not worth it.

What I hope is, that if this did happen, they come forward. Unless they murdered someone or robbed a bank at gunpoint, nothing they've been worried about being used against them could top the crime of using material obtained in this abusive way to interfere with the democratic process in this country.

[WillyT]

9. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[Cleita]

11. K&R

[cantbeserious]

12. K&R

eom

[Michigan-Arizona]

13. K&R n/t

[DevonRex]

16. Tice has been out there a long time. You're just now finding him?

Weird. Like PRISM has been known a long time and the 702 authority. And Wyden's and Udall's objections.

But y'all are just now paying attention. Makes me go hmmm. So, why didn't YOU pay attention in December, KPete? When Wyden and Udall both talked a long time on the Senate floor and amendments were offered?

Where were you? Same issues. Exactly the same.

Did it take a traitor to make you pay attention? That's pretty sad. But NOW, you say the Obama Admin is lying, etc. When it was all out there and you could have made a difference before the extension, you had better things to do. So did everybody else who's screaming hjere now. Where the fuck were THEY?

But now that everybody can use it as a cudgel every 10 minutes to beat Obama with you just LOVE the subject. Makes me go hmm. That's all. I'm not saying I know what's up. What anybody's motives are. Just interesting that it took a goddamned hacker to wake everybody the fuck up to something you could have been participating in as a regular part of government - what you do and don't want NSA to do.

Which is it? Do you want to participate in government and make a difference or do you just want to use stuff like this as an excuse to beat the man and the Party down. If you want to make a difference, then PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT BILLS ARE BEING DEBATED IN BOTH HOUSES. There were months between when the House passed the FISA extension and when the Senate passed it in December. Surely, if it were such a hot button issue at least a FEW of you guys would have brought it up.

Show me the DU debate about it. Show me.

[burnodo]

18. now kpete gets thrown under the bus?!?

You people are a PIP!

[DevonRex]

23. Where was EVERYONE before the extension was passed in December?

WHERE? Where were YOU? Wyden and Udall spoke out then. Why did it take a traitor to make YOU listen?

[joshcryer]

45. Here's a really huge discussion on the issue in May:

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/10022823119

(Note: sarcasm.)

Like I said in my other reply to you, these discussions sink like a brick. It sucks. I remember when a post like that would've garnered 100 replies and a long discussion. Sadly that hasn't been DU for a long time.

[Grateful for Hope]

78. Excellent question

[DirkGently]

19. The question is not where kpete was. The question is

where was this administration and this President? He's been talking about making FISA rulings available since before he was elected.

He has done not one single thing about it.

So, yes, apparently it took something more dramatic to bring the issue sharply to *the President's* attention.

[DevonRex]

24. Where were YOU when Wyden tried to amend FISA in December?

Where were YOU when the House passed the extension months before the Senate did? Don't deflect this onto the President. We ALL had Senators to listen to THEN who were unhappy and tried to amend it.

I guess it's easier to do nothing and then just use it to bludgeon the President with afterwards.

[DirkGently]

31. I don't follow. DUers, not the President, make policy?

It's not a "deflection" to hold the Executive and Legislative branches of government accountable for carrying out the executive and legislative functions of government.

I'm confident everyone critical of the grotesque overreach of the domestic spying program made their opinions known, and voted for people who said they shared those views.

People like President Obama.

Pretty wacky for you to try to invert the relationship between voters and elected officials. We make our voices heard. They make policy. Not the other way around.

[DevonRex]

41. The very loud and very PUBLIC debate you guys ignored for MONTHS

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/index.html

Congressional Debate on Secrecy and Security - 2012

House Approves FY2013 Intelligence Authorization Act, December 31
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/h-intelauth.html

Report on the Terrorist Attack at Benghazi, remarks by Sen. Lieberman, December 30
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/benghazi.html

Senate Approves FY2013 Intelligence Authorization Act, December 28
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/intelauth.htmlSenate Approves Reauthorization of FISA Amendments Act, December 28

Senate Rejects Amendments to FISA Amendments Act, December 27
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/faa-amend.html

Sen. Wyden Comments on Removal of Most Anti-Leak Provisions from 2013 Intel Authorization Bill, December 21
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/wyden-leaks.html

Managers' Amendment to 2013 Intelligence Authorization Bill Removing Most Anti-Leak Provisions, December 21
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/s3454-amnd.pdf

Provision to Prohibit Military Detention of Americans Removed from 2013 NDAA, December 21
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/ndaa-detention.html

Tribute to Kathleen Turner by Sen. Feinstein, December 21
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/turner.html

Senators Criticize Presentation of Coercive Interrogation in "Zero Dark Thirty" Film, December 19
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/zdt-letter.pdf

Consideration of Amendments to FISA Amendments Act Blocked in Senate, December 18
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/faa-block.html

Senate NDAA Puts Brakes on Defense Clandestine Service, December 5
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/ndaa-dcs.html

Senate NDAA Presses Interagency Cooperation on UAS Integration into National Airspace, December 5
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/ndaa-uas.html

Rep. Kucinich Seeks to Compel Release of Legal Justification for Drone Strikes, December 4
Sen. Leahy on Feinstein Amendment to Bar Indefinite Detention of Americans, November 30
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/feinstein-leahy.html

Senate Approves Feinstein-Paul Amendment Barring Indefinite Detention of Citizens, November 29
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/feinstein-lee.html

Feinstein-Paul Amendment to Bar Indefinite Detention of Americans, November 28
Rep. Dana Rohrabacher on "Classified Margaritas", November 15
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/margaritas.html

Tribute to former SSCI staff director Taylor Lawrence by Sen. Shelby, November 15

Sen. Wyden on His Objections to FY2013 Intelligence Authorization Bill, November 14
Rep. Ron Paul Bids Farewell to Congress, November 14
Senators McCain, Graham and Ayotte Request Declassification of Benghazi Surveillance Video, October 26
House Passes Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act, September 28
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/wpea.html

Rep. DeFazio Blasts Secret Trans-Pacific Partnership Negotiations, September 13
House Votes to Reauthorize FISA Amendments Act, September 12
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/faa_house.html

Tribute to CRS Specialist Richard F. Grimmett by Sen. Lugar, September 10
Senate Appropriators Withhold Funds from Poorly Justified Classified Missile Defense Agency Programs, August 2
Sen. McCain on National Security Leaks, August 1
SSCI Markup of FY2013 Intelligence Authorization Act (S.3454), July 30
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/s3454.pdf

Senators Question Impact of FISA Amendments Act, letter to DNI Clapper, July 26
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/faa072612.pdf
Sen. Leahy on Extension of the FISA Amendments Act, July 26
Preventing Unauthorized Disclosures of Classified Information, Title V of the Senate version of the FY2013 intelligence authorization act, July 25
House Names Post Office Facility After CIA Officer David Wenzel, July 23
House Measure to Require Domestic UAVs to Comply with Fourth Amendment, July 18
Sen. Whitehouse on Cybersecurity, July 11
A bill to deter disclosures of covert actions (S. 3367), by Sen. Burr, July 10
Sen. Judiciary Committee Requests Sequential Referral of FISA Amendments Act Extension bill, June 29
Amendment to Bar Domestic Armed Drones Ruled Out of Order in House, June 27
Rep. Paul Introduces the Syria Non-Intervention Act of 2012 (HR 5993), June 21
Sen. Chambliss Renews Call for Special Counsel on Leaks, June 20
Senate Measure to Authorize Funds for an Intelligence Activity, June 19
Sen. McCain on Leaks, June 19
A Bill to Provide Standards for Resolving Claims of State Secrets Privilege (HR 5956), by Rep. Nadler, et al, June 18
Senate Debate on Leaks of Classified Information, June 12
Draft Senate Resolution on Appointment of Special Counsel to Investigate Leaks of Classified Information (S.Res.489), June 12
Tribute to Andrew Liepman of NCTC by Sen. Feinstein, June 12
A Bill to Protect Privacy from Intrusion by Drones (S.3287), by Sen. Paul, June 12
Sen. Wyden on Extending FISA Amendments Act, June 11
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/wyden-fisa.html

A Bill to Protect Privacy from Intrusion by Drones (HR 5925), by Rep. Austin Scott, June 7
House Adopts Measure to Bar Armed Drones for Homeland Security, June 7
Feinstein, Chambliss, Rogers, Ruppersberger Deplore Leaks of Classified National Security Information, June 6
Sen. McCain Blasts Leaks of Classified Information, June 5
Sen. Feinstein Statement on Leaks of Classified Information, June 5
Sen. McCain on Offensive Cyber Warfare, excerpt from SASC report on FY2013 NDAA, June 4
Senate Armed Services Comm: Interagency Collaboration on Unmanned Aerial Systems, excerpt from SASC report on FY2013 NDAA, June 4
Senate Armed Services Comm on Defense Clandestine Service, excerpt from SASC report on FY2013 NDAA, June 4
House Debate on FY2013 Intelligence Authorization Act, May 31
House Adopts WMD Intelligence and Information Sharing Act (HR 2764), May 30
Sen. Wyden on Cybersecurity Legislation, May 21
House Votes for Leak Investigation Regarding Sensitive US and Israeli Information by Rep. Price, May 18
Proposed Intelligence Authorization Fiscal Year 2013, transmitted to Congress, May 3
Joint statement by Senator Dianne Feinstein and Senator Carl Levin on Jose Rodriguez Interrogation Claims, April 27
House Debate on the Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act, April 26
Reps. Markey and Barton Request Privacy Assessment for Drones, letter to FAA, April 19
Sen. Whitehouse on Cybersecurity, April 18
Sens. Wyden and Udall Object to Secret Interpretations of PATRIOT Act, letter to the Attorney General, March 15
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/wyden031512.pdf
Honoring the Life of Archive Savage, Jr. by Rep. Murphy, February 15
Introduction of the Cybersecurity Act (S.2105), by Sens. Lieberman, Collins, et al, February 14
Sen. Feinstein on Cybersecurity Information Sharing Act (S.2102), February 13
Wyden Asks Justice Department to Explain the Extent of its Authority to Kill Americans, letter to AG Holder, February 8
Honoring NSA Official Charles T. "Chuck" Kennedy by Rep. Ruppersberger, January 17

*Copyright and Use

In general, text, images, and documents found on FAS websites and blogs can be used freely with attribution (e.g. "Source: Federation of American Scientists" or "Source: FAS.org&quot unless labeled otherwise. We do appreciate hearing about use of FAS work, but it's not necessary. If you have any questions about this policy or a specific work, contact us at [e-mail]

[joshcryer]

44. Well, that's a pretty thorough smack down.

Damn!

[DevonRex]

46. But it will be ignored just as the debates were through 2012.

I monitor several sites like FAS because I used to work in the intelligence field. I have concerns of my own. Some are on the privacy side and some are on the security side.

Bugged Planet and Global Security are two others for information. Bugged Planet is an eye opener for those who believe the U.S. is the evil guy behind the curtain. There are many evil guys behind curtains and most target us.

That fact doesn't do away with my concerns about overreach. But my worry isn't nearly as much about personal privacy of ordinary people as it is about NSA being used for political intrigue to sabotage ops/presidents/cabinet members/programs.

[Eleanors38]

51. Well, there was a lot of stuff re Sandy Hook & gun politics then

[DevonRex]

89. The debate started in March. Go down the list. These are transcripts

of the debates.

[Eleanors38]

97. I understand. But the debate started days after Sandy Hook, Dec. 2012...

...and filled these pages, courtesy of the Ads. change in discussion topics (note "exception&quot .

[DirkGently]

53. Wow, those links are all random gibberish.

[Congressional Record Volume 158, Number 166 (Friday, December 21, 2012)]
[Senate]


TRIBUTE TO KATHLEEN TURNER

Mrs. FEINSTEIN. Mr. President, this month marks the retirement
of Ms. Kathleen Turner after nearly 32 years in government service,
specifically working in various capacities in the intelligence
community. I commend her for her service to the Nation and wish her the
very best in her retirement.
Ms. Turner has had a varied and distinguished career, having worked
in different positions and capacities within the intelligence
community. For most of that time, Kathleen worked where efforts and
successes are not always rewarded publicly. I am glad we can do so here
today.
I have known Kathleen mostly in her capacity as the director of the
Office of Legislative Affairs for the Office of the Director of
National Intelligence, a position she assumed in the summer of 2006.
For the last 6 years, Ms. Turner has had the sometimes unenviable job
of representing the intelligence community on Capitol Hill and
representing Capitol Hill to the intelligence community.

You just took random parts of the Congressional Record with the word "intelligence" in them.

That's pretty silly. And it has nothing to do with the Snowden leaks forcing the President to do his job.

[DevonRex]

86. It is a chronological list of every single thing both houses said or did re intel

The list leaves nothing out - even tributes to those who worked in intel their entire careers. But YOU had to spend quite a bit of effort IGNORING important debates to cherry pick something to minimize the huge amount of discussion.

The list isn't mine. It is FAS's. FAS is a liberal group who happens to agree with those who want NSA to be reined in. If you bother to do some research on the subject which you CLAIM to care so much about, they would actually help your cause. I've been with them for a long time. I suggest you do some original research instead of being led around by people making money off this story. FAS is a great place to start.

[DirkGently]

93. So you didn't read your own links? The ones you contend prove ... something?

Help me out here. You splatted a heap of gibberish links in this thread, some of which you now admit bear no relevance to any topic, as support for condescending attacks on other DUers who are noting the significance of the Snowden leaks, which quite clearly motivated the President to finally, for the first time in his presidential career, announce plans for some of the reforms he implied he would support during his campaign.

And your argument is that if others hadn't followed all of these intelligence hearings (which again, you did not look at yourself) they ... have no "right" to show interest now? Or ... what? What exactly is your demand here? Were there supposed to be OPs about the employee awards and other hearings in your list of links? You say you support reform as well -- did you post them earlier?

How does that even track? We know now that the NSA has hidden, obfuscated, and lied about its own procedures, even to Congress. So even the links you provided that aren't about intelligence service employee awards do not contain the information we are currently working with.

This makes about as much sense as your earlier theory that Snowden was a Bush family / Chinese plant working on behalf of Booz Allen (the company making money from the surveillance here) or whatever it was. Because of course Booz Allen wants to be the subject of international suspicion and ridicule and trigger possible reforms to the programs under which it is paid.

Is that still part of your argument, by the way?

[great white snark]

62. Thank you.

Policy shmolicy.

[Pholus]

60. Ummm reading about vague unsubtantiated warnings?

Trying not to wear a tinfoil hat?

Trusting my government to do the right thing?

Thinking the Government had my best interests at heart?

I guess I will stop there.

[DevonRex]

87. So you ignored Senators who sounded the alarm for MONTHS?????

Senators. You ignored Senators, part of the government who you were thinking "had your best interests at heart, etc, yada, etc."

Your government DID have your best interests at heart. Your government had fierce, prolonged debate over this very issue and you ignored it. Maybe if you had done YOUR part, gotten involved, talked to your representative and senators, emailed, joined a group like FAS, the votes could have gone the other way.

But some asshole 20-something, wet-behind-the-ears traitor steals TS/SCI info, defects to Russia after a visit with the Chinese, and now you think it's the most important issue in the whole fucking world.

Own it - you weren't interested in policy until some brat made it a hair-on-fire, everybody chant Obama-is-Satan moment. All that's missing is the pitchforks.

[DirkGently]

98. Apparently it took Snowden to get Obama's attention, eh?

Do you have a link pointing to HIS previous announcements of pending surveillance reform? Post-election, I mean.

Do you contend the recent proposals by Grayson and Amash had traction before the leaks?

Have you been responsibly informing the DU membership of your support for this kind of reform? Got a link?


Because otherwise, it kinda looks like you're just angry the administration was embarrassed here.

Newsflash: That's not the public's fault.

[DevonRex]

102. Obama Admin had 22 briefings w/members of Congress in 14 months on FISA.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/10/prism-program-obama_n_3416973.html

Sam Stein:
PRISM Program: Obama Administration Held 22 Briefings For Congress On Key FISA Law"

10/19/11: Meeting with Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Staff
1/10/12: House Judiciary Committee Staff Briefings (majority and minority separately briefed)
1/11/12: Senate Judiciary Committee Staff Briefings (majority and minority separately briefed)
3/5/12: Meeting with Nancy Pelosi Staff
3/8/12: Meeting with Harry Reid Staff
3/15/12: Law Briefing for Senate Judiciary Committee staff
3/15/12: Briefing for Senate Leadership Staff
3/21/12: Meeting with Mitch McConnell Staff
3/23/12: Senate Judiciary Committee Staff Briefing at NSA
3/27/12: Meeting with Jim Langevin
3/28/12: Meeting with Jan Schakowsky
3/29/12: Thompson Meeting*
3/29/12: Sens. Ron Wyden and Mark Udall Meeting
4/10/12: Senate Judiciary Committee Staff Briefing (in Virginia)
4/20/12: Senate Judiciary Committee Staff Briefing at FBI
5/4/12: Senate Judiciary Committee Staff Briefing
5/31/12: House Judiciary Committee FAA Hearing (unclassified)
6/7/12: House Judiciary Committee MEMBER Briefing (classified)
6/11/12: Meeting with Patrick Leahy Staff
6/21/12: House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence Hearing (classified)
7/18/12: Sens. Sheldon Whitehouse/Richard Blumenthal Meeting
12/10/12: Akaka Meeting
* The Washington Post reported the meeting as with Rep. Mike Thompson (D-Calif.).

[DirkGently]

103. Super. What policy changes in favor of transparency were proposed?

[Pholus]

106. What a particularly precious rant!

Look like all you securocrats were telling me -- there was no proof prior to this. Just vague warnings from a few people and a "secret" debate. The rubes weren't meant to know the whole story. We STILL don't even know what the law is. See, it's SECRET!

I definitely REFRAINED from saying this, but JUST cause it is obvious this will piss you off I will say it now: President Obama screwed up on this one. He doesn't screw up often, but this one was a doozy.

This issue wasn't his to "own" at the start but he was apparently surrounded by more more than enough fucking idiots and personality cultists who were more worried about looking bad (or being perceived as "Satan" apparently) than the actual process of governance. Through June and July they created this massive shitstorm as they said whatever stoopid shit they could think up desperately trying to make the issue go away, stuff that looked ignorant within a day. Most of it focused on Snowden's personality, as you do, and not the surveillance itself. But as the sunlight crept in bit by bit and more and more stuff came out and in the end the apologists all look like the pathetic Heathers they always were, covering up a massive problem with tabloid talk. Style over substance seems to be how they work.

Then again, they approached the disclosures the same way -- JUST LIKE YOU DO. It's not about our democracy, it's about some "asshole 20-something, wet-behind-the-ears traitor." Next time try to be a bit more creative in your name calling, it was hardly the best I've seen and I'd hate to think it's all you got.

It's pretty much why I don't take what you say seriously. You are basically approaching life like you live in a tabloid and focusing on personality rather than the substance of the issues. Style over substance is what YOU own.

Even the President has realized more than these dolts that something HAS to be done rather than worrying about Snowden's pole dancing girlfriend. You should take a clue from him.

[DevonRex]

107. Secret debate??? The fucking TRANSCRIPTS ARE RIGHT THERE!!!!!!!!!

And YOU could have paid attention THEN!!!!

[Pholus]

108. Oh FFS! Transcripts full of "Least Untruthful" statements you mean...

But by all means lets continue with the Heather fantasy that this all happened in the open.

Quantity does not make quality, as was amply demonstrated by your post 41.

I wasted my time perusing your mini blue linky paradise of largely irrelevant material. The original FAS one, not your hack job cut and paste. Helpful hint: next time, throw out the crap and present only the relevant links. Oh yeah, you won't because it looks a hell of a lot less supportive of your assertion.

Your list boils down to five transcripts actually containing ANY discussions relevant to dragnet surveillance (Wyden's amendment to the FISA reauthorization) where basically you have Wyden and Udall's vague warnings that the NSA is not possibly telling the entire truth about minimization. That is immediately followed by a similarly vague smackdown from DiFi about endangering an "effective intelligence program" and the defeat of the amendment. There is a similar discussion in the House version, but neither discussion makes any actual sense until you interpret the words in light of the Guardian UK's revelations. You know, the ones from your "20 year old asshole traitor." Guess you did manage to illustrate the public service he performed at least. Thanks for that!

But maybe you'd like to argue how it is all laid out in there. I'd love to see you try to make a credible argument but let's face it: There is no way you can actually put enough lipstick on that particular pig.

So open debate my ASS! But pretend harder and maybe you can convince some other rubes. Personally, I'm on to you.

[sabrina 1]

30. What are you talking about??? Do you really not understand what has

been going on, or are you actually serious that you think the people who were outraged back then were outraged when NO ONE was held accountable? THAT is why these abuses have continued, and gotten worse.

It seems to me you have no clue what has been revealed or you could not have posted this comment.

Ron Wyden, you think he did not know about Tice, and Binney and Drake and Udall and Grayson??

You want to know why no one here was complaining?? You missed Drake's prosecution did you??

Unbelievable.

Are you aware that back then Congress PROTECTED the crimes Tice revealed??? THAT is why people here keep claiming it is 'legal'. It was an outrage. What did you want people to do, to continue the level of outrage they expressed over this right up to the 2008 election?? We DID and have done, as have every Civil Liberties Org since then.

We had to deal with the TSA, did you miss that also?

[DevonRex]

48. LOL, Sabrina. You're the one who missed it all. See post #41.

And don't you tell me I don't understand. You're the one who just showed up to complain now that Snowden crawled out from under a rock.

Try getting involved when it might make a difference, why don't you? For a change.

[DirkGently]

54. Post #41 is a collection of random gibberish.

Seriously, do you think you're fooling someone?

We can actually see what you posted, you know.

Why not make an argument, if you have one?

[bahrbearian]

67. Baby Blue links.

[Bonobo]

68. Oh shit, that was funny.

It's like internet 1.0.

Links are pretty impressive --assuming that is, that no one actually looks at them to see what a collection of BS it was.

Sometimes the whole is less than the sum of its parts.

[DevonRex]

94. The Federation Of American Scientists listed and linked to the transcripts

Of every single floor debate in both houses that had to do with security. They left nothing out. Even tributes. The list contains transcripts of every single time Senators Wyden, Udall, Leahy, etc. spoke against something about intelligence gathering methods or the laws which allow them.

So sorry you aren't interested in what your government has done or is doing. But that has been obvious, which is my larger point. Nobody wants to actually DO anything. That's hard. Reading transcripts? That's for grownups. People would rather just follow a dipshit hacker who stole, leaked, defected, and actually has given names of real people working in the field, thus putting their lives in danger. Because all you have to do is make noise.

That's OK. The rest of us keep up with Congress.

[DevonRex]

90. The top link is to FAS. Go there. This is their list of transcripts of floor debate

in both houses of Congress. You can read everything said by Wyden, Udall, Leahy and others.

Of course, since you refuse to own the fact that you really never gave a shit about this before now, and didn't keep up, never knew that this was debated often and loudly, you'll just try to divert attention from the facts.

Poor thing. Hopefully people would rather get the facts than be led away from them by you. You certainly haven't added anything of substance to this discussion, but, bless your heart, I guess you can't.

[DirkGently]

96. By all means, enlighten us with your command of the facts.

Ordering people to read Congressional transcripts and therefore agree with (whatever it is you're trying to say) is a fairly transparent dodge.

Your weirdly haughty suggestion that no one "gave a shit" about NSA spying prior to now is laughable. It's been a topic of discussion on DU for years. Many assumed Obama would pursue the transparency he discussed in his campaign speeches, which he apparently has decided to act on based on the recent leaks, not on the wads of links you are tossing behind you like ink squirts from a retreating squid.

If you have "facts" to share you think bears on the issue of NSA reforms, why don't you just state them?

[blackspade]

33. I've been outraged for years!

This has nothing to fucking do with who is in the fucking Whitehouse.
This has always been about civil liberties and the violations of our Constitutional rights.
It was under the Pretzeldent and still is under Obama.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

42. You can wallow in the "I told you so's" all you want, but keep our sideshow to the side

There are important abuses afoot today, now. I can't think of much that's more useless than stamping your feet because you perceive that people didn't get angry enough about this years ago (so they somehow have no right to be angry now).

Also, your veiled accusation, immediately followed by your disowning of your statement, was not effective or opaque.

Thanks for the sermon. Have a great weekend.

[joshcryer]

43. Policy posts don't get attention / discussion.

They sink like a fucking brick.

If you want lots of recs and a lot of people replying you have to make an outrage post.

[DevonRex]

49. I finally did. And they don't much like it.

Oh well. I held it in as long as I could. I really did.

[DirkGently]

57. You held in a collection of random gibberish?

Couldn't have been too hard.

TRIBUTE TO KATHLEEN TURNER

Mrs. FEINSTEIN. Mr. President, this month marks the retirement
of Ms. Kathleen Turner after nearly 32 years in government service,
specifically working in various capacities in the intelligence
community. I commend her for her service to the Nation and wish her the
very best in her retirement.
Ms. Turner has had a varied and distinguished career, having worked
in different positions and capacities within the intelligence
community. For most of that time, Kathleen worked where efforts and
successes are not always rewarded publicly. I am glad we can do so here
today.
I have known Kathleen mostly in her capacity as the director of the
Office of Legislative Affairs for the Office of the Director of
National Intelligence, a position she assumed in the summer of 2006.
For the last 6 years, Ms. Turner has had the sometimes unenviable job
of representing the intelligence community on Capitol Hill and
representing Capitol Hill to the intelligence community.

So your argument is that people should have weighed on Congressional comments on past colleagues? Or something?

This is stranger than that "Snowden is a Chinese plant" story.

[Enthusiast]

61. This is unfuckingbelievable.

Seriously.

[DirkGently]

82. They're panicking in the face of reality, it seems.

This did NOT go according to plan. Playground insults and dead-end link heaps are apparently near the bottom of the disruption barrel.

[Enthusiast]

83. We can see it!

It's panic time.

[DevonRex]

91. You think Federation Of American Scientists' list is gibberish?

Bless your heart, I guess you just don't know any better.

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/index.html

FAS | Intelligence | Documents | Congress | Search | Join FAS

Intelligence Resource Program
2013 Congressional Debate
2012 Congressional Debate

House Approves FY2013 Intelligence Authorization Act, December 31
Report on the Terrorist Attack at Benghazi, remarks by Sen. Lieberman, December 30
Senate Approves FY2013 Intelligence Authorization Act, December 28
Senate Approves Reauthorization of FISA Amendments Act, December 28
Senate Rejects Amendments to FISA Amendments Act, December 27
Sen. Wyden Comments on Removal of Most Anti-Leak Provisions from 2013 Intel Authorization Bill, December 21
Managers' Amendment to 2013 Intelligence Authorization Bill Removing Most Anti-Leak Provisions, December 21
Provision to Prohibit Military Detention of Americans Removed from 2013 NDAA, December 21
Tribute to Kathleen Turner by Sen. Feinstein, December 21
Senators Criticize Presentation of Coercive Interrogation in "Zero Dark Thirty" Film, December 19
Consideration of Amendments to FISA Amendments Act Blocked in Senate, December 18
Senate NDAA Puts Brakes on Defense Clandestine Service, December 5
Senate NDAA Presses Interagency Cooperation on UAS Integration into National Airspace, December 5
Rep. Kucinich Seeks to Compel Release of Legal Justification for Drone Strikes, December 4
Sen. Leahy on Feinstein Amendment to Bar Indefinite Detention of Americans, November 30
Senate Approves Feinstein-Paul Amendment Barring Indefinite Detention of Citizens, November 29
Feinstein-Paul Amendment to Bar Indefinite Detention of Americans, November 28
Rep. Dana Rohrabacher on "Classified Margaritas", November 15
Tribute to former SSCI staff director Taylor Lawrence by Sen. Shelby, November 15
Sen. Wyden on His Objections to FY2013 Intelligence Authorization Bill, November 14
Rep. Ron Paul Bids Farewell to Congress, November 14
Senators McCain, Graham and Ayotte Request Declassification of Benghazi Surveillance Video, October 26
House Passes Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act, September 28
Rep. DeFazio Blasts Secret Trans-Pacific Partnership Negotiations, September 13
House Votes to Reauthorize FISA Amendments Act, September 12
Tribute to CRS Specialist Richard F. Grimmett by Sen. Lugar, September 10
Senate Appropriators Withhold Funds from Poorly Justified Classified Missile Defense Agency Programs, August 2
Sen. McCain on National Security Leaks, August 1
SSCI Markup of FY2013 Intelligence Authorization Act (S.3454), July 30
Senators Question Impact of FISA Amendments Act, letter to DNI Clapper, July 26
Sen. Leahy on Extension of the FISA Amendments Act, July 26
Preventing Unauthorized Disclosures of Classified Information, Title V of the Senate version of the FY2013 intelligence authorization act, July 25
House Names Post Office Facility After CIA Officer David Wenzel, July 23
House Measure to Require Domestic UAVs to Comply with Fourth Amendment, July 18
Sen. Whitehouse on Cybersecurity, July 11
A bill to deter disclosures of covert actions (S. 3367), by Sen. Burr, July 10
Sen. Judiciary Committee Requests Sequential Referral of FISA Amendments Act Extension bill, June 29
Amendment to Bar Domestic Armed Drones Ruled Out of Order in House, June 27
Rep. Paul Introduces the Syria Non-Intervention Act of 2012 (HR 5993), June 21
Sen. Chambliss Renews Call for Special Counsel on Leaks, June 20
Senate Measure to Authorize Funds for an Intelligence Activity, June 19
Sen. McCain on Leaks, June 19
A Bill to Provide Standards for Resolving Claims of State Secrets Privilege (HR 5956), by Rep. Nadler, et al, June 18
Senate Debate on Leaks of Classified Information, June 12
Draft Senate Resolution on Appointment of Special Counsel to Investigate Leaks of Classified Information (S.Res.489), June 12
Tribute to Andrew Liepman of NCTC by Sen. Feinstein, June 12
A Bill to Protect Privacy from Intrusion by Drones (S.3287), by Sen. Paul, June 12
Sen. Wyden on Extending FISA Amendments Act, June 11
A Bill to Protect Privacy from Intrusion by Drones (HR 5925), by Rep. Austin Scott, June 7
House Adopts Measure to Bar Armed Drones for Homeland Security, June 7
Feinstein, Chambliss, Rogers, Ruppersberger Deplore Leaks of Classified National Security Information, June 6
Sen. McCain Blasts Leaks of Classified Information, June 5
Sen. Feinstein Statement on Leaks of Classified Information, June 5
Sen. McCain on Offensive Cyber Warfare, excerpt from SASC report on FY2013 NDAA, June 4
Senate Armed Services Comm: Interagency Collaboration on Unmanned Aerial Systems, excerpt from SASC report on FY2013 NDAA, June 4
Senate Armed Services Comm on Defense Clandestine Service, excerpt from SASC report on FY2013 NDAA, June 4
House Debate on FY2013 Intelligence Authorization Act, May 31
House Adopts WMD Intelligence and Information Sharing Act (HR 2764), May 30
Sen. Wyden on Cybersecurity Legislation, May 21
House Votes for Leak Investigation Regarding Sensitive US and Israeli Information by Rep. Price, May 18
Proposed Intelligence Authorization Fiscal Year 2013, transmitted to Congress, May 3
Joint statement by Senator Dianne Feinstein and Senator Carl Levin on Jose Rodriguez Interrogation Claims, April 27
House Debate on the Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act, April 26
Reps. Markey and Barton Request Privacy Assessment for Drones, letter to FAA, April 19
Sen. Whitehouse on Cybersecurity, April 18
Sens. Wyden and Udall Object to Secret Interpretations of PATRIOT Act, letter to the Attorney General, March 15
Honoring the Life of Archive Savage, Jr. by Rep. Murphy, February 15
Introduction of the Cybersecurity Act (S.2105), by Sens. Lieberman, Collins, et al, February 14
Sen. Feinstein on Cybersecurity Information Sharing Act (S.2102), February 13
Wyden Asks Justice Department to Explain the Extent of its Authority to Kill Americans, letter to AG Holder, February 8
Honoring NSA Official Charles T. "Chuck" Kennedy by Rep. Ruppersberger, January 17
2011 Congressional Debate

FAS | Intelligence | Documents | Congress | Search | Join FAS

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2012_cr/index.html
Maintained by Steven Aftergood
Updated January 3, 2013

Copyright and Use

In general, text, images, and documents found on FAS websites and blogs can be used freely with attribution (e.g. "Source: Federation of American Scientists" or "Source: FAS.org&quot unless labeled otherwise. We do appreciate hearing about use of FAS work, but it's not necessary. If you have any questions about this policy or a specific work, contact us at [e-mail]

[DirkGently]

95. And you contend this hearty copypasta portends what, exactly?

Please explain what relevance you contend this information has to the OP.

[ZombieHorde]

52. I don't it took a hacker to bring this situation to the forefront of people's minds.

I think it took the media covering a hacker to bring this situation to the forefront of people's minds.

(I'm on pain pills, so sorry if that makes no sense.)

[populistdriven]

58. well i occasionally watch fox news so

I rarely make sense.

[Coyotl]

73. New rule: No talking about the past.

[PragmaticLiberal]

20. Is this the guy who claimed the NSA was blackmailing President Obama?

[JDPriestly]

38. Do you believe that they aren't?

Why do you think that Obama is so compliant with their activities? I have been speculating that the NSA may actually be blackmailing the President. They may have done it to some past presidents too.

I would not put anything past them.

I have wondered why Obama appointed so many Republicans in his administration.

Who knows? We don't know either way.

And, what Tice claimed was that he held the papers that authorized reviewing the records of Obama's calls and phone numbers, etc. not that Obama was being blackmailed.

[Coyotl]

74. This the guy who knows the NSA was tracking Mr. Obama, an up and coming Democrat.

And who reported that fact.

[Babel_17]

21. So, puzzle pieces have been out there but now with Snowden they can be tied together?

Is that the gist of it?

Well, the more that the citizenry takes an interest in our government, the better.

[Amonester]

27. Well, it would be so much better if the *constatly distracted* citizenry would take an interest

for other very important issues too.

[DirkGently]

99. This is what leakers & journalists DO.

Policy reform occurs when people take notice. When government operates in the dark as with the NSA, working with secret interpretations of secret rulings from secret courts, the public doesn't have any meaningful opportunity to react.

It takes noise. Disruption. Agitation. Particularly in this area designated "national security" which goes on largely in secret.

We forget that, because so much journalism has been replaced by mutual backscratching between insiders and media organizations. "He said / she said" has replaced analysis so that easy sources don't get ruffled. The gears churn, but nothing is produced.

And look now. Congress is actually moving. The President has announced a newfound interest in reforms he had suggested as a candidate, but not managed to pursue until now.

This IS what democracy looks like.

[sarcasmo]

22. Kick!

[jazzimov]

28. Tice is a former NSA analyst who blew the whistle on massive FISA violations...in 2005

in 2005????????

'nuff said.

[Historic NY]

29. He needs to produce the evidence.....

but he actually sounds like he is from the page of WND.

[JDPriestly]

39. Snowden has produced the evidence, but then he is discredited for other reasons.

People don't want to shake off their complacency long enough to think. The truth is just too scary.

[Historic NY]

65. Did he, its not been tested in a court of law or any other hearing...

remember he fled the country with a files an made a lot of accusations.

[Recursion]

75. Where? All I've seen is powerpoint slides that contradict what he says

Did he produce evidence that the safeguards are actually being ignored?

[blackspade]

32. This is getting problematic for the NSA programs....

If things have changed, proof needs to be provided.
That means transparency needs to start pronto.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

47. And there are more whistleblowers, too

Which is the ONLY legit part of the tired canard that what snowden blew the whistle on was "old news" because many others have told us about the illegal piracy being done by the totalitarians, while at the same time claiming they haven't seen any evidence of the piracy (classic cognitive dissonance) even while the unprecedented aspect of Snowden's whistleblowing is the presentation of documentary evidence of their massive crimes.

Which is why they must now lower themselves even further by resorting to personal attacks and name calling.

Which is not only demeaning to themselves personally, but what I take offense to, is it is highly demeaning to DU, too.

[AppleBottom]

50. good stuff, nt

[Coyotl]

71. Exactly what we have been saying all along,"Bush spied on the Democrats."

And the people put in place to do that work are still there doing the exact same thing. That is the problem, abuses that can alter the course of democracy.

[DeSwiss]

81. So what do they have on President Obama?

What threat(s) are they holding over him and others? Right. Now.

Scares you to think about it, doesn't it? Even though you know it's true.

Ike told us. He was too big for them to shut up. But it was already too late by then.

Whatever it is, it's sufficient for Obama to have abandoned everything he claimed to stand for, before becoming President.

These are the people who are running this country:
NSA to Can 90% of Admins to 'Purge Potential Whistleblowers'

- And here's the irony, it only begins to dissolve when we stop supporting it......

K&R

[OnyxCollie]

84. The warning came in February, 2008.

Police concerned about order to stop screening

Posted on Thu, Feb. 21, 2008
By JACK DOUGLAS Jr.
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

DALLAS -- Security details at Barack Obama's rally Wednesday stopped screening people for weapons at the front gates more than an hour before the Democratic presidential candidate took the stage at Reunion Arena. The order to put down the metal detectors and stop checking purses and laptop bags came as a surprise to several Dallas police officers who said they believed it was a lapse in security.

Dallas Deputy Police Chief T.W. Lawrence, head of the Police Department's homeland security and special operations divisions, said the order -- apparently made by the U.S. Secret Service -- was meant to speed up the long lines outside and fill the arena's vacant seats before Obama came on.

~snip~

Doors opened to the public at 10 a.m., and for the first hour security officers scanned each person who came in and checked their belongings in a process that kept movement of the long lines at a crawl. Then, about 11 a.m., an order came down to allow the people in without being checked.

Several Dallas police officers said it worried them that the arena was packed with people who got in without even a cursory inspection.

[DeSwiss]

100. Dallas

- The Praetorian guard, the business end.

[Octafish]

104. Doug Horne of the ARRB might concur...

... I know I do:

JFK’S WAR AGAINST THE NATIONAL SECURITY ESTABLISHMENT: WHY KENNEDY WAS ASSASSINATED, PART 1

http://fff.org/explore-freedom/article/jfks-war-against-the-national-security-establishment/

It's vital history that explains why things never really change for the War Party.

[woo me with science]

109. K&R