dKos: The NSA, Greenwald, Snowden, and the incredible lack of skepticism on both sides.

[Coyotl]

Dueling viewpoints on dKos. Sound familiar?

Fri Aug 09, 2013 - http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/08/10/1230233/-The-NSA-Greenwald-Snowden-and-the-incredible-lack-of-skepticism-on-both-sides

The NSA, Greenwald, Snowden, and the incredible lack of skepticism on both sides.
by StellaRay

Wow. What a rodeo it's been. For weeks and weeks. Dueling diaries, HR extravaganzas, accusations of roving gangs, and predictions this site is going to hell in a hand basket.

I can honestly say that on this topic, I've read much more than I've commented. Far more. And still, as much as I try to straighten it out in my mind, I remain HIGHLY skeptical of arguments on both sides. And by skeptical I mean neither side has convinced me, which is not to say both sides haven't made points that make me think. I know I'm not the only one here who feels this way ....

Those that claim Greenwald and Snowden are liars and the equivalent of carnival barkers and cowards are choosing to believe that the freaking huge NSA complex, that has grown and multiplied w/the aide of the Patriot act---which I think is a total travesty, (and which I HATE the name of just to being with, my God, sounds like a bad country western song to me, you know like that one about "I'm proud to be an American, chest pound etc,) is nothing to worry about. I think it's A LOT to worry about.

OTOH, those that take Greenwald and Snowden at face value, and assume righteousness on their parts, without distancing themselves enough to question, without the patience and objectivity it takes to evaluate the motherlode of events, flying commentary, conflicting testimony and sheer complexity of the issues at hand, don't win me over either.

I find this VERY complicated ..........

[cantbeserious]

1. Given The Duplicity Demonstrated By The Obama Administration - One Suspects The Worst

eom

[randome]

2. Given the duplicity of S&G, one learns to react with skepticism to both sides.

As the writer of this article points out.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[cantbeserious]

3. Obama Campaigned Against The Surveillance State - Case Closed

[forestpath]

4. +1000

[Coyotl]

5. Can you please name names

"The Obama Administration" is not duplicitous since duplicity is an 'action' by a person, human agency to employ an anthropology term, not institutional rules and norms (albeit arguably).

[cantbeserious]

7. The Obama Administration = The Man At The Head Of The Administration

eom

[msanthrope]

6. Can you demostrate this 'duplicity' using names and examples? nt

[cantbeserious]

8. The Obama Administration = The Man At The Head Of The Administration

[grasswire]

9. Clapper. nt

[msanthrope]

10. One person? nt

[grasswire]

11. you can do better than that, counselor

with all due respect.

[msanthrope]

12. Again--one person? If Mr. Clapper was truly lying to Congress, as delineated by

statute, then I expect Congress to pursue an investigation and refer it to the Justice Department.

[Autumn]

13. I expect Congress to do a lot of things.

[msanthrope]

14. Me, too. But if those clowns are being lied to, and they allow it, they have no one to blame but

themselves. It's called Checks and Balances.

[Autumn]

15. Does it seem like there is a system of Checks and Balances to you?

I haven't seen that in a long time. I think they know that they are being lied to and in turn they lie to us. IMO they don't represent the American People, they represent themselves. Except for a very small handful. Everything else they do is window dressing, CYA and what's in it for me and my campaign.

[ljm2002]

16. And if those clowns are being lied to...

...and they allow it, then who is to blame is irrelevant since the end result is to erode our system of Checks and Balances, damaging our government and its ability to respond to the needs of its citizens. Not to mention giving even greater power to the secret agencies.

Congress is there to serve us. If they are allowing themselves to be lied to, to the point where they cannot do their jobs, then we as citizens have the right to demand more of them. Which we could not do if we did not know about this BS in the first place.

[msanthrope]

17. All the more reason to put in a 2014 Congress that is more responsive. nt

[ljm2002]

18. Because that's what this whole discussion has been about...

...not.

We already know that both parties are up to their eyeballs in this stuff. You can bet that I'll vote for Democrats in 2014, so I'll do my part on that score. But to believe that voting by itself will have much effect on the security state flies in the face of everything we know so far.

I am not a single issue voter, but even if I were a single issue voter, it is doubtful I could find candidates to vote for who share my views on the security state. Yes the Democrats will appear to be more responsive but the response will be chipping around the edges while leaving the bulk surveillance intact.

We need to continue to apply pressure, and we need to be willing to ally with people who are on the other side of most issues in order to be effective in this area. It's kind of like a throwback to old style politics, where people from wildly different mindsets were able to make common cause. And we should remember when considering this, that the elites already make common cause from different sides of the aisle, as evidenced by the security state apparatus, the military industrial complex, the charter school movement, etc. Yet many rank and file Democrats continue to adhere to the purist approach that says you can never, ever make common cause with those whom you consider to be political enemies on most issues.

It's another way the elites keep us divided and conquered.

One day the Little People on the right, left and center will figure out who our real enemies are. Hint: .01%.