General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'd rather restore constitutional law and give up my healthcare. Just thought I'd throw that out
there, since there seems to be a trend right now to parade the healthcare here. In other words, no amount of rah-rah about the healthcare, no matter how good it truly is for folks, will negate the loss of constitutional law, nor will it deflect my attention. Keep your eye on the ball (for those able to see it).
Oakenshield
(614 posts)That likely wasn't you intent, but you OP really does read like something they'd preach. Better to say "expanding healthcare is all well and good, but let's not forget the President and his administration should also be held responsible for their attacks on our civil liberties."
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)Of course, political views haven't changed in 40 years, so instead of being extreme left, I used to be considered middle of the road, ordinary average Democrat. But, I hear you.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)And there's no way I'll support a rollback of the ACA under any circumstances. The only change I'll support will be ones that will move it closer to single-payer.
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)toward single payer. Still, I'd give it up at this point, just to get back to reality.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)silvershadow
(10,336 posts)much that I would gladly give up my healthcare at this point if that's what it took to restore law. (Not that it would, but still, I would if it would).
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(49,001 posts)The real choice is four way and the choices are independent:
A & B
A & not B
not A & B
not A & not B
dothemath
(345 posts)I would guess you have SS, Medicare and receive care - free - from the VA. Maybe retired from a job that affords a pension AND free healthcare for life for you and your family. Time for some enlightment about your situation, sir, along the lines of exactly what you would be giving up. Or did you win the lottery? (by the way, that would be a gift that cost you a couple of bucks but doesn't make you the "sharpest knife in the drawer" by a long shot).
How about it? 50 million people without healthcare coverage except for emergency room service would like to know. Another by the way, care from an emergency room is provided because a LAW was passed. Might as well get rid of that, too.
djean111
(14,255 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)djean111
(14,255 posts)JI7
(89,248 posts)"restore the constitution" while complaining about socialism.
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)stating that, at this point, after 2 GWB mal-administrations, and since, this country has been adrift....And I couldn't be more disappointed with President Obama if I tried. That press conference yesterday was pathetic.
MADem
(135,425 posts)TexasTowelie
(112,150 posts)whether you had too much to drink tonight, too much to smoke tonight or if you've forgotten that you are on DU.
There are flaws in the ACA and single-payer is preferable, but I would prefer to fix those problems than abandon ACA before it is fully implemented and given the opportunity to work.
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)that the NSA spying thing is so important to me, that at this point I'd gladly give up my healthcare in order to return to constitutional law.
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)silvershadow
(10,336 posts)Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)We can have our constitution within a capitalist republic system, which is essentially what we have. The veil of democracy, I have never really bought into it. It is clear that corporations and the rich run the show and have since the early days of the republic. So restoring is not really the question since imo, current conditions have been status quo since day 1.
Now as far as the domestic spying issues, I agree, these are egregious infringements on the constitution. How to stop it? Hmm. How do we even know what the extent of the spying is and how do we determine if it has been stopped? Do you think the government agencies are even going to come clean with congress? Much less the American public?
They are spooks. Shadows. Working in the dark and never to be revealed. I am not sure how we get a handle on them. I truly believe that congress cannot even reign them in at this point. De-funding them through congress will have no affect - there will always be super rich corpo interests to provide the money.
In any event, the constitution in rapidly becoming a relic with no modern relevance - not that I agree that it should be so, or think it is a good thing in any way. The constitution is being ignored, trampled and "interpreted" in ways that are so far fetched as to be laughable. There is no commitment to it anymore. Contemporary politicians care more about finding ways to circumvent the constitution with legal loophole jumping than adhering to it's core principles.
How do restore it? Better to ask how do regain control from the corporate megaliths that run our country for their own benefit.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)nicely stated.
Demit
(11,238 posts)Why do you consider that attention to one important issue deflects attention from another important issue?
If you got your wish, how would that work? The president would declare the restoration of constitutional law (what are the specifics of what you mean by that, anyway?) but in exchange, he would have to abolish "the healthcare" because...why, exactly?
reformist2
(9,841 posts)Demit
(11,238 posts)Californeeway
(97 posts)and the callousness to assume that my kid or a million other innocent kids goes without healthcare so you can wax righteous about potential abuses is pretty damn mean-spirited
The Snowden clan has had a lot of mean-spirited and trollish things to say lately,
and they wonder why people naturally resist it...
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Exercise is a great example.
Californeeway
(97 posts)but that does not prove you are correct on this particular point.
No one is saying they don't want the NSA and over surveillance programs reformed drastically. I thought that was the point of Obama's speech in May. I got it then, it's not something people pulled out of their ass just now, we are talking about ending the war on terror and overhauling the whole security apparatus. I'm done with the fascination over Snowden is soooo awesome, Obama's such a dick. It's old hat and smells like rat-fucking. People are talking about how they want the reforms done now. I think a lot of us are starting to get tired of being to told to spend the next year lionizing the guy who ratted us out to the Chinese and Russians and what do we get out of kneecapping the leader of the party going into an election cycle? Like a Republican Senate is going to make it easier to end the War on Terror?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)You might want to look around here before making claims about what people are saying, there are plenty of posters who think the NSA is just fine exactly the way it is and will defend it to their last breath thank you very much.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)but conservative society that did not have an all encompassing surveillance state - than live in an authoritarian socialist society that did have an all encompassing surveillance state.
However, I don't think it is necessary to have give up both social democracy and freedom - But if I was forced to choose - I would choose to keep freedom - After all what was Communism but authoritarian socialism? And what was Fascism but an authoritarian version of social-democracy - with lots of the social and none of the democracy. And what did both Fascism and Communism both have in common but an all encompassing surveillance state?
reformist2
(9,841 posts)Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Cha
(297,187 posts)paranoid much. There are many things happening at once and we're quite capable of getting everything we want.
djean111
(14,255 posts)anything - as if it is only possible to do one good or right thing at a time or in a term or whatever. So much for all those people on the payroll at 1600.
Hate the drones and torture? But what about the ACA!
Hate the trampling of the Constitution? DOMA!!!!!!!!!!
The OP is not suggesting ACA be rolled back. It is suggesting that the ACA does not excuse anything else.
I fully expect the TPP to be so disgusting that it will take the cheerleaders a few days to come up with rationalizations and spin (unless that is being worked on now) and to be told ACA!!!!!! DOMA!!!!! as if things like that excuse other things that are just wrong.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)dothemath
(345 posts)The ACA was passed and became LAW exactly as prescribed in the consitution, repeat exactly. How in blazes do you conflate that with "restore constitutional law"?
Another neocon wingnut paraphrasing a right wing talking point and screwing it up. Typical. Nothing to see here, folks, move along.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)It's good that you have come here to share your expertise with those of us who are incapable of recognizing neocon wingnut talking points.
Demit
(11,238 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)watoos
(7,142 posts)are being subsidized by the rest of the majority of us who are responsible and carry health care. I'm tired of paying extra for dead beats who hide behind the Constitution so they can run to the emergency room and get me to cover their bills.
Do you also feel the same about being forced to get a drivers license. Isn't that also an infringement on our freedoms?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)There's a good chance you won't be able to afford the actual care anyway after you make the premiums and have to cough up the copays and the deductible.
The strict choice would be between health *insurance* and constitutional law.
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)because I'd rather you die than I might have been spied on.The possibility of my e-mails being read trumps your life.
struggle4progress
(118,282 posts)Skidmore
(37,364 posts)steaming binary magical thinking poured over a huge lump of straw in the morning.
We can change laws and do both. Elect a Do Something Congress in 2014. All arguments like the one you just presented will continue to be met with scorn by me because they tend to present nihilistic open-ended doom and gloom without a path toward solutions. Step forward with constructive solutions and you will get my attention. Ignoring the role of Congress in crafting bad laws and shunning its oversight responsibilities is a good place to begin examining your outrage.
rurallib
(62,411 posts)like it says in the constitution
malaise
(268,967 posts)FFS!
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Either, or?
Neither is dependent on the other.
Ridiculous false dichotomy, is ridiculous.
Nope, I DEMAND both.
tridim
(45,358 posts)for the first time in their lives.
Do you think maybe your priorities are a completely out of whack?
MisterP
(23,730 posts)silvershadow
(10,336 posts)plenty of other things that are the law of the land that seem to be ignored or missing.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)silvershadow
(10,336 posts)DevonRex
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bowens43
(16,064 posts)and yes without health care the Constitution isn't worth a flying fuck to most people.
BTW , the founders put a lot of fucked up shit in that document and it should be trashed. We should start over.