Why is that billboard smiling at you? Because it tracks your smartphone MAC address to advertise

[Catherina]

Last edited Mon Aug 12, 2013, 09:39 AM - Edit history (1)

Why is that billboard smiling at you? Because it tracks your smartphone MAC address to advertise to you

http://vimeo.com/66074106
Presence ORB - Renew Technologies (R&D)



Edit: Same company now told they must stop tracking people with trash cans

[Egnever]

1. Why do you find this scary?

[Rex]

2. Maybe he doesn't want the sign knowing his phones MAC address.

Something wrong with that?

[Egnever]

4. Then he should get rid of the phone

Cause they broadcast that for all the world to see.

So yea lots wrong with that. You cant rework the foundation of technology for the sake of paranoia.

[Rex]

5. Oh sure get rid of the phone, guilty of driving in public.

Nice response.

[Egnever]

8. Not even sure what that means

Its real simple phones have to broadcast their mac address for calls to routed to them correctly. If you don't like it get rid of the phone.

[Rex]

10. A joke, pretty bad one at that.

Better yet, turn off your phone. Otherwise it will get expensive tossing your phone out the window when you see a smart billboards.

[Egnever]

15. Turning off the phone works as well

Seems pretty silly to me to be bothered by it at all.

[Rex]

21. It might to you.

What is silly to some is serious to others.

[Egnever]

24. The solution is simple

Pull the plugs.

[WinkyDink]

12. Did you even read the part about BILLBOARDS?

[Egnever]

14. Yup

So what?

I don't find it terrible that I should see adds that relate to things I am interested in as opposed to crap I couldn't care less about.

In fact I find it helpful.

What is your problem with it?

Are you mad the grocery store sends you coupons you can use based on your buying patterns? How is this different?

[HiPointDem]

40. i don't want a store to send me coupons based on my buying patterns, or billboards to target

me for ads, or the internet to target me for ads.

i don't want any of that crap. i don't find it helpful at all, i find it intrusive and sickening.

[Egnever]

45. Then dont use those things

Or take the steps you need to to ensure you are not being tracked. Cause it is not currently against the law to do so and people are doing it.


I personally think you are overlooking many benefits this stuff allows.

[HiPointDem]

49. that would be great advice except for the fact that the range of freedom one has to do that

is ever-tightening.

and at some point it will basically require withdrawal from society to exercise such 'freedoms'. if withdrawal from society is even possible at that point.

[Egnever]

51. Well

I am sorry you feel threatened.

[HiPointDem]

52. what a stupid & condescending reply.

[MADem]

29. I have a dumb phone and I like it just fine.

I can text, take pictures, make phone calls, and it wakes me up in the morning.

I can't play on the internet (though I can access the internet to do a quick search) or do that "Let me look at your face while I am talking on the phone" thing, but it is sufficient for my purposes.

And it's cheap, too.

[Rex]

30. I have a company phone and it bothers me a lot.

It does have a good wake up alarm. I have about 3 throw away phones sitting in a drawer I haven't used in years.

[WinkyDink]

11. "paranoia"? Look up the definition.

[Egnever]

16. ok

2. baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others.


Seems to fit pretty well.

[napoleon_in_rags]

7. Its more comedy movie than horror movie, but its bad.

Scene: Kyle and Laura are hitting it off on their date, driving down the road but Kyle keeps trying to attract Laura's attention away from something...

Laura: I'm really enjoying myself, Kyle.
Kyle: Me too. I've been on my own a long time, and I didn't think I'd meet anyone like you. OH, look over there!
Laura: What is it?
Kyle: Oh that field just looked ....uh pretty.
Laura: (suspiciously) okaaay.
Kyle: Oh! Look over there again!
This time Laura doesn't look, and an electronic billboard catches her eye.
Laura: Hey, what's that say? Look that billboard has your name on it! It says "Kyle, we know you enjoyed your recently purchased masturbation aid, but have you tried it with new AstroGlide Space Platinum Slide? The pleasure is out of this world!"
Kyle: Uh, yeah. Custom advertising billboards. Must have me mixed up with a , uh, different Kyle.

LOL!

Its all. about. power. This system will be abused too.

[Egnever]

9. Abused to do what?

The level of paranoia on this board is reaching frightening proportions.

Get rid of the cell phone if it scares you. WTF?

[napoleon_in_rags]

17. You're asking to have giant screens over public places broadcasting data from personal lives.

It just. doesn't. get. more. dystopian.

[Egnever]

18. LOL

turn your damn phone off.

Good lord an add for a ford is now broadcasting your private data.

You would be best off to just pull all your plugs you clearly are not prepared for the digital world.

[napoleon_in_rags]

22. Oh, it'll go there.

If having a cell phone means having "need a bankruptcy attorney" broadcast on a giant screen whenever someone in hard times walks into a room. It will go there. I just hope the cell phone companies, the NSA, and everyone else who are invested are smart enough to see it. I do like my cell phone.

[JimDandy]

25. No. I own a private phone for MY convenience to get

MY work done and for the people I choose to be able to reach me. I need it to be on for MY use, not for a company to be accessing data because my phone is required to leak it for ME to be able to use it.

Perhaps its time for someone like Elon Musk to use their billions to create technological devices that work on a new kind of privacy protecting network where all data is encrypted, no identifiable info is leaked out, and therefore everyone who hasn't opted in to be tracked is unable to be tracked.

You would be best off if YOU just stay with the current tracking and privacy denying digital technologies, though, since you just love being tracked.

[Egnever]

27. Because you are ignorant of the way the phone works

Does not magically make it private.

And in your fairyland where data is delivered without a discoverable address I would like my flying car delivered to my private Island.

[JimDandy]

31. Don't you read?

Because I don't LIKE the way current phones and their networks work doesn't mean I'm ignorant of how they work.

People worldwide are getting fed up with being spied on and their movements tracked, so there is going to be a huge market out there for completely redesigned communication networks and devices that protect their privacy. Give the people what they want...that's Capitalism baby!

Start working on designing a flying car yourself and maybe you'll be able to buy that private island you want.

[Egnever]

33. People want lots of things

Doesnt mean they get them. I have wanted my flying car for over 40 years now....capitalism has yet to deliver.

I do think we need better legislation on digital data collection and use. Till that happens you need to be aware of the fact that anything you do on the net or anything you do on your cell phone can be intercepted and tracked. It is reality.

Accept it and act accordingly.

If you dont want anyone to know about something dont put it on the net and dont do it on your cell phone. Even without the government being involved there are plenty of folks out there that can access that data if they work at it. BE AWARE of it!

Having said all that there are plenty of legitimate and beneficial uses to the tracking these devices allow. For instance my phone knows my route to work because it tracks me. It will tell me when my usual route is congested and suggest alternate routes. That is incredibly helpfull. There are thousands of legitimate uses for the tech that are beneficial to society in many ways. Cab drivers here in vegas have been saved after being abducted because they tacked the drivers cell phone. I am quite sure that driver is damn glad they were able to do that.

Its a balancing act.

I get peoples concerns about their privacy what I don't get is the hair on fire all of it must go BS that is being spewed here.

With any system there is potential for abuse the goal should be to try to limit the abuse not throw out the system just because it can be abused.

The idea that I should be afraid of a billboard showing me adds relevant to my interests is absurd. When the trojan man starts appearing all around me every where I go my attitude may change but I doubt it.

[HiPointDem]

42. gee, i thought capitalism was all about giving the *customer* what he wants, not 'this is all

you can get, if you don't like having to kill your firstborn, just don't take it'

[Egnever]

46. Well then you are foolish

Capitalism is about profit and Adds are profit, Capitalism only cares about delivering as little to their customers as they can while making as much as they can off them.

Thats a discussion for another thread though.

[HiPointDem]

48. yes, that's what *i* thought. add "increasing their own power" to the mix & you've got it.

by any means possible, including spying & murder.

which is why 'just don't buy a phone' is such a lame response to what's going on.

[JimDandy]

53. Not willing to accept it anymore.

I'll be doing everything I can to bring about a new paradigm in communication networks and the laws necessary to enable them, and to disable the government's wholesale spying on us.

The people want private secure networks and we will get them.

Goodnight.

[Egnever]

54. Best of luck in your endevaors

I mean that seriously. I think there's a market for it to be sure. I doubt its a majority of the market as people tend to like convenience. There is certainly money to be made there though.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

32. I wait for know-it-all's just like you to start making noise

Do tell me, which part of the 48-bit MAC address stores information about what kinds of cars Jack likes to search for on his phone's browser? I've heard that the first 24 significant bits are referred to as the SUI, or Shopping Unit Identifier. Or did I get that wrong?

As soon as you're able to explain how a burned-in hardware address conveys private browsing history all on its own, without hacking, sniffing, or collusion with the ad company on the part of the carrier, we will have something to talk about. Until then, I'll sit back and watch your self-styled expertise with amusement.

[Egnever]

34. Sounds to me like you have a problem with the OP and not me

I am not the one that claimed they could do what the OP is proposing based on a mac address. My point is that mac addresses being broadcast is not going away.


"Collusion with the ad company on the part of the carrier" is exactly how it will happen. You sign off on that crap when you sign the contract.

Don't like it?

Dont sign the contract. I dont get whats so hard to understand here.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

36. No. Your point is that if you can see my street address from the curb...

...I shouldn't have a problem with you, advertisers, or whomever else seeing my checkbook ledger or my television viewing habits.

If I can see your phone's MAC address, I should be able to see everything you do on that phone, right?

[Egnever]

37. Should and can are two different things

Yes if you know the mac address of my phone and have the hacking skills or company installed software to do so you can absolutely see everything I do on my phone.


Do you doubt thats possible?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

38. Did I say that hacking phones wasn't possible?

Of course cell phones are hackable. Now you go write up a business plan that has cell phone hacking as Step 1 of the business foundation. Then run off and get angel funding for the venture and let me know how far you get.

You're right about should and can being very different things, which makes it all the more curious that you're in favor of something because its technically possible, but also ethically wrong. It's difficult to have a discussion with someone playing both sides of the fence.

[Egnever]

44. I would love to discuss.

That doesnt seem to be your intent though.

It doesnt require hacking your phone to deliver adds. It requires an add agreement between say Facebbook or Google and the phone company. Facebook and google already know what you like they tie that to your phone account and viola bilboards that show stuff you are interested in when you pass them.

No real mystery tech here.

My problem is the hair on fire you should be scared stuff.

This new tech its like the wild frontier all over. There is very little legislation governing this stuff so pretty much anything is a "can be done" (should has little relevance).

People should take that into account when they use tech.

We need to decide what is and isnt acceptable and try to create laws to protect peoples privacy but it is a balancing act as this thread shows.

There are plenty of beneficial uses for the same tech used for the billboard idea in the OP. Are you suggesting we should throw all that away?

I am not sure what your issue is here.

Do bilboard adds tailored to your interests bother you more than banner adds on DU?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

47. My original problem wasn't the ads, although I don't like them

My original problem was that you were trying to lord tech knowledge over someone else as a way to cudgel them into seeing your point of view, which missed the technical mark. As I insinuated in my first reply to you, the MAC alone will not get you John's browsing history. I said it would require hacking (we've covered that) or collusion on the part of the carrier (or manufacturer, but I didn't mention that on the first go). The 48-bit identifier that is the MAC address isn't where the problem lies. The problem lies with carriers willing to sell your privacy. The technologies used in cellular data will work just fine without having to expose data to advertisers as an unfortunate side effect. So you can't really accuse those who don't like this of being Luddites when the central question is not technological in nature, but is instead centered on profit versus privacy. Its detractors do have valid points.

[Egnever]

50. Still not finding the problem

And not sure how I am lording my knowledge over anyone.

I am stating was is possible. And making an argument for why you shouldn't be running around in a panic over it.

We need a rational discussion on this subject not panic over billboards with tailored advertising.

I want my phone to move forward with tech.

It wont be many more years before displays will be everywhere. I want to be able to access my information from any screen I am near based on my phones presence. I can think of thousands of beneficial things that can be done with the same tech we are talking about in the billboards.

My point in this whole thread I guess is these things are going on already. The billboard is just another iteration.

The billboard isn't spying on you, you are giving that information up in one way or another willingly. If you dont like that, right now there's only two ways to stop it. Pull the plug or get legislation passed.

[Incitatus]

3. So could you just turn off your phone's wifi while in public to prevent this?

[Egnever]

6. No

The mac address is used to route the signals to your phone from the towers. Your phones mac is broadcast regardless of wifi.

A mac address is a unique identifier for your phone and is used to ensure traffic is routed correctly.

[Generic Other]

13. I generally pick up and discard stuff throughout the store

I don't know what I want to buy. Good luck figuring out what I might like. And since all my devices have adblock, I will add an ap that blocks billboards maybe with a cool laser sound. And again, if these don't work, there's always the accidental disabling method. I once sent a huge rock through a church window with a lawn mower. Klutzes will be klutzes.

[Silent3]

19. Cell phones are inherently tracking devices

They need to have unique IDs in order to function properly, and to broadcast those unique IDs to the world around them.

If you don't want to facilitate your own tracking, I'm afraid cell phones aren't for you.

The question is, do you find that basic capability scary in and of itself, or only particular exploitations of that technology?

Under a much better system of laws than we have now, I'd want commercial exploitation of this capability strongly restricted to clear opt-in uses with tough limits on B2B sharing of consumer data, and government surveillance exploitation to be limited to duly warranted investigations approved by non-rubber stamping judges.

As a practical matter, however, I'm not personally scared by any of this, just mildly annoyed. It's more a matter of the principle of the thing that bothers me, and a more intellectual than emotional concern for potential abuse.

[Egnever]

23. Well said.

I think that there needs to be a lot of thought put into digital regulation. My biggest problem with that is the people that write the laws for the most part have 0 understanding of the tech they would be writing laws for.

Going forward will will have to work our way through these issues to be sure.

Having said that Add sense is not something that worries me in the least.

[MineralMan]

20. I turn my cell phone off when I drive.

My voice mail works just fine.

[hobbit709]

26. Have dumbphone. It's turned off 90% of the time.

[babylonsister]

28. I have a flip phone, old school.

I figure I'm on radar somewhere, but only because I post on the internetz.

But let's ramp it up.

[giftedgirl77]

35. Weird, but not something I'm going to lose

sleep over. On a side note we did find out just how extremely efficient the perk cards for stores are the other day. 2 weeks ago we got a new puppy as such we bought puppy food from petsmart. Less than 2 weeks later they called me to see if I wanted to add him to our pet insurance. At the time I was like that's really convenient, oddly enough I did just get a new pet. A few hours later it him me.

[Egnever]

39. Exactly!

Now is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Last week the grocery store sent me coupons, Amazingly every one of them was things I buy often....Did they just save a tree?

[giftedgirl77]

43. I think it works out well.

It's not like it is a mandatory program & if they are going to taylor my savings to me why would I argue. I also have a couple of stores setup on automatic text messaging, they can tell when I'm in the store & they send me deals. I say it's a win win.

I have the security set very high on my phone so my gps & data can't just be accessed by anyone. I have to grant permission for outside sources. People are letting things freak them out wayyyy to much.

[GreenStormCloud]

41. With maybe 30 cars in the viewing area, how will the billboard decide who to direct the ad to? N/T

[Catherina]

55. Authorities demand company (Renew) stop tracking Londoners with high-tech trash cans

UK: Firm must stop tracking people with trash cans

Aug. 12 8:43 AM EDT

LONDON (AP) — Officials say that an advertising firm must immediately stop using its network of high-tech trash cans to track people walking through London's financial district.

The City of London Corporation says it has demanded Renew pull the plug on the program, which measures the Wi-Fi signals emitted by smartphones to follow commuters as they pass the garbage cans.

In one interview, Renew chief executive Kaveh Memari said he would sell the data to "anyone."

...

The City of London Corporation is responsible for the city's historic "square mile," home to financial institutions, law firms and tourist landmarks.

...

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/uk-firm-must-stop-tracking-people-trash-cans

[suffragette]

56. Opting in, opting out and data privacy laws

I think a key difference here is that, in general, data privacy laws tend to be stronger in Europe than in the U.S. and there are organizations there that actually enforce these.
Also, they tend more toward opt in (favorable to citizens) where we tend more toward opt out (favorable to corporations).

It does get tricky when technology comes along and the lines are blurred.
Where is the line on anonymized and/or aggregate data?
Do old definitions encompass new technologies and uses?

Interesting article about the opt in/opt out issue. Also has linked to EU laws and guidance on data privacy.
http://gigaom.com/2013/08/09/when-youre-being-tracked-by-a-smart-trashcan-shouldnt-you-have-to-opt-in-first/

There's also some info in the comments section about connections to Presence Orb, Raptor and Cisco. Not sure what to make of that.