Snowden, "famously paranoid"

[ProSense]

How Laura Poitras Helped Snowden Spill His Secrets

By PETER MAASS

<...>

In May, he sent encrypted messages telling the two of them to go to Hong Kong. Greenwald flew to New York from Rio, and Poitras joined him for meetings with the editor of The Guardian’s American edition. With the paper’s reputation on the line, the editor asked them to bring along a veteran Guardian reporter, Ewen MacAskill, and on June 1, the trio boarded a 16-hour flight from J.F.K. to Hong Kong.

<...>

Snowden had instructed them that once they were in Hong Kong, they were to go at an appointed time to the Kowloon district and stand outside a restaurant that was in a mall connected to the Mira Hotel. There, they were to wait until they saw a man carrying a Rubik’s Cube, then ask him when the restaurant would open. The man would answer their question, but then warn that the food was bad. When the man with the Rubik’s Cube arrived, it was Edward Snowden, who was 29 at the time but looked even younger.

<...>

For the next week, their preparations followed a similar pattern — when they entered Snowden’s room, they would remove their cellphone batteries and place them in the refrigerator of Snowden’s minibar. They lined pillows against the door, to discourage eavesdropping from outside, then Poitras set up her camera and filmed. It was important to Snowden to explain to them how the government’s intelligence machinery worked because he feared that he could be arrested at any time.

<...>

Greenwald’s first articles — including the initial one detailing the Verizon order he read about on the flight to Hong Kong — appeared while they were still in the process of interviewing Snowden. It made for a strange experience, creating the news together, then watching it spread. “We could see it being covered,” Poitras said. “We were all surprised at how much attention it was getting....Snowden told them before they arrived in Hong Kong that he wanted to go public. He wanted to take responsibility for what he was doing, Poitras said, and he didn’t want others to be unfairly targeted, and he assumed he would be identified at some point. She made a 12½-minute video of him that was posted online June 9, a few days after Greenwald’s first articles. It triggered a media circus in Hong Kong, as reporters scrambled to learn their whereabouts.

- more -

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/magazine/laura-poitras-snowden.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

E.S.: We came to a point in the verification and vetting process where I discovered Laura was more suspicious of me than I was of her, and I’m famously paranoid. The combination of her experience and her exacting focus on detail and process gave her a natural talent for security, and that’s a refreshing trait to discover in someone who is likely to come under intense scrutiny in the future, as normally one would have to work very hard to get them to take the risks seriously.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/magazine/snowden-maass-transcript.html?_r=0

I mean, this sort of explains a lot of the wild, unproven claims, and the bizarre focus on foreign surveillance.

E.S.: Yes and no. I know journalists are busy and had assumed being taken seriously would be a challenge, especially given the paucity of detail I could initially offer. At the same time, this is 2013, and a journalist who regularly reported on the concentration and excess of state power. I was surprised to realize that there were people in news organizations who didn’t recognize any unencrypted message sent over the Internet is being delivered to every intelligence service in the world. In the wake of this year’s disclosures, it should be clear that unencrypted journalist-source communication is unforgivably reckless.

Which reminds me of this:

Yes, I stand by it. US Persons do enjoy limited policy protections (and again, it's important to understand that policy protection is no protection - policy is a one-way ratchet that only loosens) and one very weak technical protection - a near-the-front-end filter at our ingestion points. The filter is constantly out of date, is set at what is euphemistically referred to as the "widest allowable aperture," and can be stripped out at any time. Even with the filter, US comms get ingested, and even more so as soon as they leave the border. Your protected communications shouldn't stop being protected communications just because of the IP they're tagged with.

More fundamentally, the "US Persons" protection in general is a distraction from the power and danger of this system. Suspicionless surveillance does not become okay simply because it's only victimizing 95% of the world instead of 100%. Our founders did not write that "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all US Persons are created equal."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/17/edward-snowden-nsa-files-whistleblower

Between the chats, interviews and PR events, the "media circus" hasn't ended.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

1. It's the regime that's acting paranoid. Pursuing scary whistle blowers and threatening them.

[villager]

2. Yes, that typically character-assassinating headline was hilarious from an "irony"

...perspective.

But then again, projection is always a good trick for defending the powerful.

[ProSense]

4. His words. Are you suggesting he's not helping his case? n/t

[villager]

6. ...taken entirely out of context, by you. As usual.

Are you suggesting that isn't usually the case?

[ProSense]

10. What context is needed for "famously paranoid"?

That's like claiming there needs to be a context for a descriptive headline: Snowden, "hero" or Snowden, "whistleblower."

Snowden described himself as such. The OP is showing that he is likely right about that.

[villager]

18. Your OP falsely insinuates it's some kind of third-party diagnosis.

It's simply Snowden talking about measures of self-protection.

But you knew that, and are being typically disingenuous.

[ProSense]

27. What the hell are you talking about? They're his words. n/t

[villager]

29. "What the hell are you talking about?" Indeed.

n/t

[MrMickeysMom]

176. The usual, villager...

The usual...

[msongs]

57. yet Obama's words vs actions get a free pass from the promoters lol nt

[Mojorabbit]

117. Totally taken out of context. This is scraping the bottom of the barrel. nt

[Just Saying]

131. Please explain

How putting Snowden's own words in quotes, posting the paragraph of his full answer AND a link to the article is taking something out of context?

I read the article and he said this to show just how suspicious Laura was of him. He was saying that as admittedly paranoid as he is, she was even more suspicious of him.

In what way is the OP taking him out of context?

[Mojorabbit]

140. picking those two words out of the entire article and using it as a headline

when it was a passing comment in a conversation reducing a complex article to a cartoon.

[Just Saying]

149. What's wrong with taking an interesting quote from the article posted?

Only so much will fit on a title line and most people try to grab attention.

I don't see that as a passing comment, but as an interesting revelation into what Snowden has to say about himself. The title wasn't misleading or wrong-he said exactly that. Perhaps it would have been out of context if he or she didn't post the entire quote and link, but it's all there.

It seems like the objections have more to do with the poster than the post.

[Mojorabbit]

150. Nah

Take a complex multifaceted article,post a derogatory headline, and then comment, "I mean, this sort of explains a lot of the wild, unproven claims, and the bizarre focus on foreign surveillance. "

which I am guessing from the poster's history is supposed to serve as a reason to blow off the rest of the article which really has little to do with paranoia. Par for the course.

[NuclearDem]

151. I don't even know what this OP is supposed to be about.

Because apparently, it isn't about paranoia, according to the OP's author downthread.

[Just Saying]

156. And perhaps your history has you reading more into it than is there.

So many complain about character assassination while doing just that in their posts. To quote you, par for the course.

It seems illogical that he or she would post the links hoping you wouldn't read the articles. For the record, I read them all.

I'm not sure how derogatory it is considering Snowden said it out loud to a reporter. A lot of people are paranoid and admit it and this guy was contracting for the NSA and then taking classified info. Whether you believe him a whistleblower, traitor or anything in between, it seems he had reason to be paranoid.

And as far as the "I mean" quote it's called an opinion. We all have them and come here to express them. I thought that was the whole point.

[NuclearDem]

164. Except there's a difference between the colloquial definition of paranoid and the clinical

The OP seems to conflate the two, suggesting Snowden is suffering from paranoid personality disorder in order to fit her perception of him, when in fact it seems to just be a passing comment and phrasing used for rhetorical effect in the interview.

[bigtree]

13. what's to worry?

[davidpdx]

195. Thanks for posting this

My reaction is "no shit". What happened to all the love for Putin and Russia? Oh wait, it turns out they passed laws condemning LGBT right in time for them hosting the Olympics. Russia isn't perfect after all.

Ha, it's time DUers remove their lips from Putin's ass.

[pnwmom]

34. Pursuing people entrusted with classified documents who steal thousands of them,

leak some of them, brag about having had access to the names of US agents all over the world, share information about our spying on China with a Chinese newspaper, have their mouthpiece threaten to release documents far more damaging, and then hide out in Russia.

"Whistle blowers" like that deserve to be pursued.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

58. Wow! A whole list of scary bogeymem. So, who's paranoid?

Beware the Jabberwock, my son, the jaws that bit the claws that catch...

[pnwmom]

61. Well, we know Snowden is paranoid, because he said he was famous for being paranoid . . .

before he ever went public.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

72. So, you and he agree that the world is very dangerous and we should all duck?

[Igel]

96. Not duck.

Bob and weave. Constantly. Esp. in public places like restaurants and when in meetings with our boss.

And if they ask why, your answer is, "To keep all the parabolic microphones from focusing on me too closely."

[BumRushDaShow]

3. It's like a movie-of-the-week in progress. nt

[Arctic Dave]

5. Obama, "famously ineffective".

Except if you are the 1%.


Why does Obama hate the constitution and the rule of law?

[ProSense]

7. Got a link to Obama saying that?

You do know the words in the OP are self-decriptive, don't you?

Judging from your response, probably not.

[villager]

20. He has as much context as you do, for your fake headline

n/t

[ProSense]

26. Clearly, the OP is upsetting to you, but that's not my problem.

It's based on Snowden's own description of himself, and find the faux outrage highly hyprocritical.

I mean, want me to show where one- or two-word self-descriptors by President Obama have spawned dozens of threads?

[villager]

31. Clearly, the responses are upsetting you, but that's not my problem.

You took Snowden's self-description entirely out of context, as you know -- part of your track record of dodging the larger implications of an unchecked MIC in order to indulge in character assassination.

I find your faux outrage highly hypocritical.

[ProSense]

36. LOL!

Clearly, the responses are upsetting you, but that's not my problem.

You took Snowden's self-description entirely out of context, as you know -- part of your track record of dodging the larger implications of an unchecked MIC in order to indulge in character assassination.

I find your faux outrage highly hypocritical.

Seems like you're the one upset. I mean, you seem highly upset to the point you're admitting a bizarre focus on what you believe is my "track record."

[villager]

37. I agree the thread is rapidly become bizarre, ProSense

But not for the reasons you're so desperately proclaiming.



"LOL," etc.

[ProSense]

40. Abandoning all pretense now that you've admitted to focusing on my "track record"?

That's what's bizarre.

Still, nice attempt to deflect from that reality.

[villager]

42. Ah yes, and now the lapse into the psychoanalysis of the responses...

...rather than actual responses, the claim that only you have a purchase on "reality," etc.

All quite predictable, all of it seen before.

Carry on!

[ProSense]

44. Wait,

"Ah yes, and now the lapse into the psychoanalysis of the responses....rather than actual responses, the claim that only you have a purchase on 'reality,' etc."

...you're claiming my response is "psychoanalysis": http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023456236#post31

Next time focus on the topic, and not me.

[villager]

59. "Next time focus on the topic, and not me"

Indeed.

Indeed.

[Arctic Dave]

49. Sure I got a link where it says that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023456236

[xocet]

8. The talking points have arrived: all operatives should concentrate on possible mental illness.

Can you please send me an indexed set of blue links to all the smears that you have used? It would be quite helpful.

[L0oniX]

12. ^^^this^^^

[ProSense]

15. Delivered by Snowden?

Thanks Snowden.

[Mojorabbit]

152. I know right!!! It is just pitiful. "But he said he was paranoid!!11!!" LOL nt

[mike_c]

9. Prosense-- it's come to this....

Although we've often disagreed I've always found your posts civil and persuasive, even when they don't persuade me. They're obviously driven by your pro-Obama, pro-authoritarian agenda, but that's alright. Insight into how others view events differently than ourselves is almost always useful.

But your relentless efforts to discredit and demonize Ed Snowden these last weeks has undermined your credibility. Your agenda is growing threadbare. You stretch your points way beyond their shelf life, and your posts are no longer insightful, but rather desperate souinding instruments of character assassination.

I'm sorry to say that I'm adding you to my ignore list. It's a short list, and most DUers I put on it are ultimately tombstoned for their excesses. I doubt that will happen to you-- you're not the histrionic sort, I don't think. Still, your posts have become so OBVIOUSLY driven by your personal agenda that they contribute little of value to the larger discussion on DU. They're utterly predictable, and shrill. I'm done reading them.

[L0oniX]

14. ^this too^

[villager]

23. Indeed.

n/t

[ProSense]

22. LOL! Thanks for your opinion. I guess by now

you know that I never trusted Snowden and believe his actions were cowardly and misguided.

Is there a reason you think I would change my opinion of him?

"I'm sorry to say that I'm adding you to my ignore list. It's a short list, and most DUers I put on it are ultimately tombstoned for their excesses. I doubt that will happen to you-- you're not the histrionic sort, I don't think. Still, your posts have become so OBVIOUSLY driven by your personal agenda that they contribute little of value to the larger discussion on DU. They're utterly predictable, and shrill. I'm done reading them."

Oooh, grandstanding!

[truebrit71]

24. For me it's been the constant drumbeat of "Obama can do no wrong"...

...even if it's doing the same thing Bush did but with fancier words....

[Summer Hathaway]

186. As opposed to the drumbeat of

Snowden/Greenwald can do no wrong?

For many here, it doesn't matter if you're an Iraq War supporter, or someone who thinks that SS recipients are moochers and leakers should be shot in the balls, as long as you have an (S) or a (G) behind your name.

[markiv]

28. 'driven by your personal agenda'

i think this poster is an administrative assistent

i dont think it's their own agenda

[ProSense]

30. "i think this poster is an administrative assistent"

I think you're upset because I'm criticizing Snowden.

[markiv]

32. ok, you got me

that's what it really is

[ProSense]

33. Yes, "that's what it really is"

Why else would you have posted this nonsense: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023456236#post28

[markiv]

35. indeed, that's what it is nt

[Cali_Democrat]

63. LOL. I always find it amusing how people announce they're putting someone on ignore

As if the person even cares.

[Logical]

114. I always find it amusing when people whine about them announcing it. n-t

[Summer Hathaway]

192. Saying that one finds something 'amusing'

is now equivalent to 'whining'?

Admittedly, that makes about as much sense as the rest of the crap I see posted here.

I guess it's part of the ever-changing "DU reality" - it's hard to keep up.

[Bonobo]

136. New rule: People that claim to be amused on the internet never are.

They are actually irritated and embittered and want to feign amusement.

[Cali_Democrat]

205. So I'm actually irritated and embittered that mike_c put ProSense on ignore?

That makes about as much sense as your insistence that posting pictures of Evo Morales smiling is actually racist.

[Cha]

216. What do you mean?!! It's a huge "Good bye cruel world" to ProSense..

Very serious

[Logical]

112. + 1000! She is beyond understanding now. n-t

[Cha]

215. LOL!

[Vinnie From Indy]

11. I think he was also paranoid about the boxes in his garage!

Have you found anything more about the boxes? It is vital that we know more about the boxes!!!!!

[Incitatus]

21. boxes?

[Summer Hathaway]

70. Have you noticed

that the only posters who ever raise the topics of "boxes in his garage", "pole-dancing girlfriend", etc. are all Snowden supporters?

They persist in repeating those memes in order to promote the idea that it is the Snowden naysayers who are obsessed with this trivia - but the only people who post this nonsense repeatedly are the Snowden worshippers themselves.

The rest of us so obviously don't give a shit about it - which renders the constant posting of these memes rather laughable.

[Vinnie From Indy]

73. The issue here is not whether we made fun of the people who

are obsessed with smearing Edward Snowden by highlighting the trivial nature of so many of the attacks - we have!

But you can't hold a whole online forum responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole online forum system? And if the whole online forum system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our American Internet institutions in general?

I put it to you, Summer - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!

[Summer Hathaway]

75. You miss the point.

"The issue here is not whether we made fun of the people who are obsessed with smearing Edward Snowden by highlighting the trivial nature of so many of the attacks - we have!"

The point is that there are no Snowden non-supporters to be 'made fun of' for posting about boxes in garages or pole-dancing girlfriends - because they're not posting about that BS at all.

Those things are being posted by the Snowden supporters themselves, over and over, in a pathetic attempt to convince people that it is the non-supporters who are obsessed with these trivial topics.

Peruse the threads about Snowden - and take note of who brings up these topics. In the thread we're both posting in, who is the only person (as of this writing) who has mentioned "boxes in the garage"?

Hint: It's not a Snowden non-supporter.

[ProSense]

95. Deliberately, like everything else related to the attempted deflections.

The problem the critics have with the OP is likely not "famously paranoid" in the title, but the content of the OP. I mean, look the facts:

The NYT piece shows a person playing spy games, and the snip ends with the "media circus" point. The "every intelligence service in the world" statement is strange. He accuses journalist of being "unforgivably reckless" for using "unencrypted journalist-source communication."

Although the "founders" point is highlighted, the rest of the comment, made during his online chat, highlights a particular problem with the information leaked:

"US Persons do enjoy limited policy protections (and again, it's important to understand that policy protection is no protection - policy is a one-way ratchet that only loosens) and one very weak technical protection - a near-the-front-end filter at our ingestion points. "

He has no evidence of wrongdoing, it's all about technical capabilities (despite his other claim of "criminality&quot . It was that comment that gave rise to the suspicion that he hacked the system. Then came the revelation that he took the information on a thumb drive.

Which is why I say that I still haven't seen any evidence of the NSA spying on Americans.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023423551

[Mojorabbit]

161. Oh dear, it would take me thirty seconds to fill up a page of blue links

of these exact posts by you and other Snowden detractors. Anyone could do it and come up with dozens and more. The fact that they were even posted about in the first place was so juvenile, it almost demands being brought up again and again to show how ridiculous they were.

[ProSense]

174. Oh my

"Oh dear, it would take me thirty seconds to fill up a page of blue links of these exact posts by you and other Snowden detractors."

..."blue links" is permanent in the lexicon of those who seeks to a utopic forum free of Snowden criticism.

[Mojorabbit]

181. It is a permanent DU phrase thanks to you! :)

I hope the pole dancer, boxes in the garage, ballerina, and more remain in DU lore as an over the top mess just as olive garden, pitt bulls, and a certain type of fried chicken is.

[ProSense]

204. LOL!

Don't blame me for creating a silly focus of the color of links.

I had nothing to do with it.

[Summer Hathaway]

184. See my post at Reply #183

Being as it will only take you thirty seconds to do so, why don't you go ahead and post "that full page of blue links of these exact posts" by myself and other Snowden detractors?

You certainly won't find any by me - and I doubt you'll find many, if any at all, posted by anyone other than your fellow Snowdenites.

[Cha]

217. Yeah, I've noticed a Lot of snowden's "boxes in garage" references in a mocking

tone and wondered wth they were talking about?

Evidently he had boxes in his garage.. so what?

[CJCRANE]

120. You've done it this time, Vinnie!

No more DU! I'm calling the national office! I'm going to revoke your charter! And if you wiseguys do one more thing, one more, I'm going to kick you out of this forum! NO MORE FUN OF ANY KIND!!

[Vinnie From Indy]

122. lol!

Cheers!

[hootinholler]

209. !

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

[Just Saying]

79. Exactly Summer!

The only reason I even know what his gf (ex?) did for a living is the Snowden Fan Club and I have no idea what "boxes in his garage" is in reference to.

And I don't care either.

[Mojorabbit]

159. Then you missed the beginning of the character smears when

the Snowden detractors en mass used these ridiculous claims which were hilarious then and are still rightly made fun of.

[Summer Hathaway]

183. The "boxes in garage" et al nonsense

originated with a Politico piece, entitled "Snowden - Ten Things to Know".

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/10-things-to-know-about-edward-snowden-92491.html

which someone posted in an OP on DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022983957

As you can clearly see from the replies to that OP, the Snowden "non fans" (to use a neutral term) focused on three points: the fact that his resume didn't match the known facts, the fact that he had attained a high-tech position without having a HS diploma, and the fact that he was a Ron Paul donor/supporter.

As you can also clearly see, it was only the Snowden supporters who kept reiterating the minutia contained in the Politico piece re "boxes in his garage", "not a friendly neighbor". etc, while the Snowden non-fans only discussed the three points I've cited above.

Ergo, the "Snowden detractors" never made these "ridiculous claims", en mass or otherwise, nor did the Snowden detractors ever raise such trivial BS in subsequent posts about the man.

A site search makes it more than obvious that the only people here who constantly raise the "boxes in garage" meme are the Snowden fans, who seem to believe that if they attribute these bullshit quotes to having originated with the Snowden detractors, it will somehow be perceived as fact.

I stand to be corrected - and you can do your own DU search to prove me wrong - but in the literally hundreds of DU threads on the topic of Snowden, I have never seen a "Snowden detractor" point to "boxes in the garage" as indicative of anything - or, for that matter, even worthy of mention.

So much for the "Snowden detractors en mass used these ridiculous claims which were hilarious then and are still rightly made fun of." If you want to make fun of those who constantly allude to "boxes in the garage", feel free - but keep in mind that the people you'll be making fun of are not the Snowden detractors, but the Snowjobbed.

[Mojorabbit]

185. I remember it well

It was one of a multitude of fabulously stupid posts smearing the messenger. It and other posts like it were made fun of and rightly so. The absurdity of the attacks were and are still hilarious.

[Summer Hathaway]

187. Obviously

you couldn't come up with that page full of blue links after all, could you?

That's because your assertion that "the Snowden detractors en mass used these ridiculous claims" was a 'ridiculous claim' in and of itself. And obviously so.

You should think before you make baseless claims that you can't provide any evidence for - and so should your friend Snowden.

[Mojorabbit]

188. Oh but I could easily. I went back and looked at some so they are not hard to find at all.

That particular post was a culmination of a rash of juvenile bash the messenger posts on this board. That is why it got the reception it did and rightly so. There have been more since then including this past weekend.
Snowden is not my friend. He is not the center of the story. The spying is. The clumsy attempts to smear him and distract from the real story are what we are conversing about. He is barely on my radar. The surveillance programs are.. despite the attempts at making it about the young man who exposed what they are doing. Good night. It is way past my bedtime.

[Summer Hathaway]

189. Well, if they're not hard to find

you can easily post them here.

I would be more than interested in seeing any posts by a "Snowden detractor" that reiterates anything about "boxes in the garage", or being "an unfriendly neighbor", etc. - as per your claim.

But once called on to produce evidence of that claim, you have changed your criteria to "a rash of juvenile bash-the-messenger posts" - which, as you know and I know, do not contain any references by Snowden detractors to "boxes in the garage", or "his pole-dancing girlfriend", etc.

And yes, of course, it's not about Snowden. It never is - until it is. And it always is.

[DontTreadOnMe]

16. Trust Me

[BeyondGeography]

77. LOL

I saw that tinfoil hat form in my head.

[reformist2]

17. <3

[1awake]

19. “Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you” - Joseph Heller n/t

[bemildred]

25. Paranoia is the proper attitude for any security professional.

Doubly so on the internet, there are people out to get you.

[The Link]

38. Imagine how paranoid he would be if Obama assasinated US citizens abroad.

[UTUSN]

39. Paranoia is a component of wingnutism/Libertarianism. As "American" as Salem village. n/t

[NuclearDem]

41. Exaggeration used for rhetorical effect.

A pop psychological self-diagnosis of "paranoia" due to cautious and mistrusting behavior is not the same at all as being diagnosed professionally with paranoid personality disorder.

Next.

[ProSense]

43. LOL!

"Next."

Nice try.

[NuclearDem]

46. You seem to be the only one who thinks this is significant

The rest of us understand the difference between pop psychology and actual mental illness. His statement means nothing more than an exaggeration for effect.

Hence, "next."

[ProSense]

48. I guess that's why you and others rushed to this thread, huh? n/t

[NuclearDem]

51. I rushed to this because I don't take kindly to perceived mental illness being exploited

For cheap shots at people. All this kind of nonsense does is further drive a wedge in people's perception of pop psychology vs. scientific psychology, which ends up further stygmatizing people with real mental illness in the long run.

If you think that's alright to do, then you've got some soul-searching to do.

[ProSense]

52. More nonsense. You're suggesting that Snowden suffers "mental illness."

There are a lot of paranoid kooks, one of them is in the Senate: Rand Paul.

Pointing that out is not "exploiting" a "perceived mental illness."

[NuclearDem]

60. Then why point it out in the first place?

The only time paranoia becomes anything other than an exaggeration is when it forms paranoid personality disorder, paranoid schizophrenia, or delusional disorder.

And yes, whether you want to admit it (or even know it) or not, you are exploiting mental illness for your own ends. You're taking the stigma attached to paranoia, blowing an obviously meaningless statement out of proportion, and implying that Snowden is mentally incapacitated by paranoia.

I'm not a psychologist, and as far as I know, you aren't either. Neither of us are in a position to judge someone's mental state or diagnose personality disorders.

[ProSense]

80. Point out what?

Something that upset you so much you're trying to deflect with pretending the discussion is about "mental illness"?

"I'm not a psychologist, and as far as I know, you aren't either. Neither of us are in a position to judge someone's mental state or diagnose personality disorders."

Who knew?

[NuclearDem]

90. You made it about Snowden's mental state in the first place.

I mean, this sort of explains a lot of the wild, unproven claims, and the bizarre focus on foreign surveillance.

That was right after the quote about "famously paranoid." You insinuate that Snowden's behavior and accusations are the result of paranoid delusions or some other mental illness. Paranoia is only diagnosed as PPD, PS, or DD.

Then there's the colloquial use of the term "paranoid": hyperbole used to describe caution and rational distrust.

Since neither of us are psychologists, I would suggest you stop trying to imply mental illness or disorder based on a single statement and your own perception of events. It's unscientific and further drives people to misunderstand actual mental illnesses.

[ProSense]

91. No, I didn't.

"Since neither of us are psychologists, I would suggest you stop trying to imply mental illness or disorder based on a single statement and your own perception of events. It's unscientific and further drives people to misunderstand actual mental illnesses."

"I would suggest" you stop posting lame deflections, but I'm not going to because the lameness is entertaining.

[NuclearDem]

93. Since you're not going to argue the points and simply deflect, we're done here

If you want to be willfully ignorant about Psych 101 concepts, that's your prerogative.

But I will leave with this: yes, you did make it about Snowden's mental state, and your denial of this fact through petty name calling and appeals to ridicule speaks volumes.

[ProSense]

101. LOL!

"Since you're not going to argue the points and simply deflect, we're done here"

Says the person whose entire point was deflecting from the OP. It's my OP, remember? You don't get to decide that the topic is something else. That's deflection.

[LanternWaste]

223. One may imagine "Dr." Frist utilized the same justification

"Pointing that out is not "exploiting" a "perceived mental illness."'

One may imagine "Dr." Frist utilized the same justification when diagnosing Terry Schiavo.

(Insert difference without a distinction here)

[Hissyspit]

196. Everything is so funny.

[Puzzledtraveller]

45. I think I'm Paranoid

[bowens43]

47. Paranoid with good cause, Obama has drones and he isn't afraid to use them......

Obama violated our Constitutional rights, just deal with it and stop attacking the whistle blower.

[CakeGrrl]

64. Tell it to Issa. He's practically peeing in his pants to impeach. -nt

[MrMickeysMom]

177. I heard the "konk" myownself

...You know, the sound one makes when one hits another over the head after the whistle be blowing...

[NoOneMan]

50. The more articles you post about Snowden, the more we learn about you

Get some help!

[ProSense]

53. Actually, your comment says more about you.

Personal attacks on other DUers is nothing to be proud of.

[NoOneMan]

62. I am rubber, you are glue

Some people have a lot of growing up to do

[ProSense]

102. Yes, you do. n/t

[cali]

54. +1,000- or more

if I'd written that it would have been hidden. I have written exactly that and had it hidden.

[ProSense]

56. Well, it's clear why you support personal attacks on other DUers.

In fact, it's transparent: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=152034&sub=trans

[Cali_Democrat]

66. There is a conspiracy against you?

[cali]

78. no just a bunch of

insecure duers who want me banned. poor things. How do I know? Not only have I been told by more than a few folks, but I can read jury comments and the little honeys aren't shy about their sentiments.



good luck with it, kiddies.

[CakeGrrl]

65. So does this person need help, too?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023455368

[Rex]

55. Yeah the wild, unproven claims and bizarre focus says a lot

about the agenda at play.

[hobbit709]

67. Will you ever give it a rest?

[BumRushDaShow]

68. Then don't read it. nt

[hobbit709]

69. Thank you for your 2 cents worth.

[snappyturtle]

132. We can only hope. A break would be welcome. nt

[DisgustipatedinCA]

71. Some people claim you're a paid operative. I don't know if that's the case or not

But I'm starting to think it's a more charitable explanation than the alternative. It's not really normal to express this much hatred for an individual over and over and over again, every day for weeks on end. Again, I don't know if you're being paid, but it's my hope that you are. If you're doing this for your own personal reasons, I think you're doing harm to yourself and your psyche.

[Puglover]

76. Exactly!

I for one don't see a problem in the world with someone who would get paid to post. I am not saying Prosense is or isn't. I have no idea and frankly I don't give a hoot.

However I do have a rather strong opinion about someone who would spend 16 hours a day cranking out post after post driving an issue when clearly most of the audience here simply isn't buying it. Let's just say I would have a lot more empathy for someone who is doing it for an honest buck.

That said, people are certainly free to do whatever floats their boat.

[ProSense]

82. "Exactly"? It's nonsense

"I for one don't see a problem in the world with someone who would get paid to post. I am not saying Prosense is or isn't. I have no idea and frankly I don't give a hoot.

However I do have a rather strong opinion about someone who would spend 16 hours a day cranking out post after post driving an issue when clearly most of the audience here simply isn't buying it. Let's just say I would have a lot more empathy for someone who is doing it for an honest buck."

Who me, concerned? Heck no!!!! "I don't give a hoot," but "I do have a rather strong opinion."

"That said, people are certainly free to do whatever floats their boat."

This is what happens when you try to focus on other posters and attack their motives: pretzel logic.

You should spend some time examining why you're focusing on me.

[Puglover]

92. Aw.....

Bless your heart.

[ProSense]

98. That doesn't work. It's a sign you have no response. n/t

[Puglover]

110. LOL if it makes you feel good.....

Then I say......you win!

Frankly in reality what it means is I don't have much of an interest in engaging with you. Because clearly with 100k plus posts you are much more adept with debates on the internet then I am. And probably much more adept with snark. Although I am capable of it it doesn't make me feel particularly good when I do. However out of courtesy I will explain my above post.

When you put yourself at the forefront of trying to smear someone (Snowden) that many (and if recs are any indication, most) here don't see in the same manner as you do (this OP has 13 recs) and do it over and over and over and over....well expect some blowback. And yeah people should speak about the posts rather then you. But at what point do the posts become spam and say more about you and your motives rather then contain anything that is worth discussing?

I totally meant it that I don't care whether or not you are paid to post here. Honestly I don't. As I said above frankly I don't see a thing wrong with it if you are. I wish I was. And after giving it some thought I think that attacks on you based on this are somewhat cheap.


Please go ahead and have the last word. But seriously as I said above. You win.

[ProSense]

113. Yeah,

"I totally meant it that I don't care whether or not you are paid to post here. Honestly I don't. As I said above frankly I don't see a thing wrong with it if you are. I wish I was. And after giving it some thought I think that attacks on you based on this are somewhat cheap. "

...it's just on your mind. LOL!

[ProSense]

81. LOL!

"Some people claim you're a paid operative. I don't know if that's the case or not

But I'm starting to think it's a more charitable explanation than the alternative. It's not really normal to express this much hatred for an individual over and over and over again, every day for weeks on end. Again, I don't know if you're being paid, but it's my hope that you are. If you're doing this for your own personal reasons, I think you're doing harm to yourself and your psyche."

The "paid operative"/shill attempts at the deflection become more and more lame.

[KittyWampus]

83. I just alerted your attack. Let let it be noted you are a bully. I am sick of watching one DU'er

get attacked day and and day out.

It is disgusting.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

84. And you may get my post locked, we will see

But before I'm locked out, I'll say that if I'd wanted to attack ProSense, I would have, but I did not.

I've said mean things on DU, and so have you. This wasn't one of them.

[KittyWampus]

85. And of course your bullying attack wasn't locked. Congratulations, you are a bully

and it's accepted on DU.


AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your alert

At Tue Aug 13, 2013, 04:08 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

Some people claim you're a paid operative. I don't know if that's the case or not
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3457344

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

YOUR COMMENTS:

Does one really need an explanation for this alert. It and the whole subthread should be removed.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Tue Aug 13, 2013, 04:18 PM, and voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This is clearly a personal attack and the person its directed at seems to have thick enough skin to handle it. Still, it is a shame that such personal attacks are now common place on DU. Hide it. Maybe we'll see fewer.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I'm sorry but the poster to whom this is directed very clearly brings it on themself and gives as good as she gets. I can not in all fairness hide a post that merely points out what many of us are thinking.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: Personal attack.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: If you are a big kid this shouldn't bother you. Just say it isn't so and move on.

Thank you.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

87. I don't find cause for celebration when I say what I want to say without having my words stricken.

If my post is what you consider bullying, GD may not be an ideal place for you.

[ProSense]

89. Not surprising. Look

at what is allowed to stand: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023442971#post7

Still, it's fun to get the last laugh: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=303665&sub=trans

[Just Saying]

130. +1000000

If they had anything to say, they wouldn't need to keep going after the one poster who consistently debates them. They've effectively shut down most opposition because people simply don't want to deal with the MeanGirlsWithHairOnFire clique. You're right-they are bullies.

Keep calling them on it and alerting. We all define what is acceptable in our community and I have seen some of this sort of thing locked. It's the luck of the draw.

Good on Prosense for disrupting the echo chamber!

[Waiting For Everyman]

74. So paranoid about personal encryption=paranoid mentally?

And do other countries not have spy agencies equivalient to the NSA? You say...

I mean, this sort of explains a lot of the wild, unproven claims, and the bizarre focus on foreign surveillance

.

How long are you going to deliberately mislead people on this board? Or maybe I should say be allowed to?

[ProSense]

88. "Paranoid" means paranoid.

And do other countries not have spy agencies equivalient to the NSA? You say...

I mean, this sort of explains a lot of the wild, unproven claims, and the bizarre focus on foreign surveillance

.
How long are you going to deliberately mislead people on this board? Or maybe I should say be allowed to?

What do other countries having "spy agencies" have to do with my point, which is Snowden's bizarre focus on foreign surveillance?

You don't like my opinion? I mean, your response appears to be "deliberately" misleading because the opinion is mine. You don't have to agree with it. Still, who made you a board police in charge of opinions?

[Waiting For Everyman]

94. You don't like getting confronted, do you?

The point is, that your point has nothing to do with Snowden's point in what he said -- as you well know, which is what I was pointing out. And is your next point that you say I'm being misleading because I put your words in "excerpt" (at least I'm guessing that's what you're referring to)? Last time I checked, I'm allowed to quote your opinion as you do in countless posts youself (like the one I'm replying to now for instance). I did note it as such, so this is more gratuitious serpentine obfuscation on your part. At least it all matches nicely.

As to your attempt at snark:

Still, who made you a board police in charge of opinions?

You're not allowed to know that, it's classified.

[ProSense]

97. What?

"You don't like getting confronted, do you?"

No, but apparently you and everyone who enter these threads to launch personal attacks have come to that conclusion. I mean, the OP is about Snowden. The fact that you don't like criticism of Snowden is not about me wanting to get "confronted."

You are attempting to blame me for your desire to be confrontational.

"The point is, that your point has nothing to do with Snowden's point in what he said -- as you well know, which is what I was pointing out. And is your next point that you say I'm being misleading because I put your words in "excerpt" (at least I'm guessing that's what you're referring to)? Last time I checked, I'm allowed to quote your opinion as you do in countless posts youself (like the one I'm replying to now for instance). I did note it as such, so this is more gratuitious serpentine obfuscation on your part. At least it all matches nicely."

Again, what? I mean, that's incoherent.

[Waiting For Everyman]

105. What "personal attacks"?

As long as you keep misleading people, either I am or someone else is, going to rebut you. That's to be expected on a discussion forum. If you don't like opposing points of view, there are the protected groups.

[ProSense]

107. "As long as you keep misleading people, either I am or someone else is, going to rebut you."

Well, as long as you keep posting nonsense in an attempt to deflect, I'll continue to point it out, and I don't have to hide behind anyone else to say or do so.

[Waiting For Everyman]

111. LOL!

WTF was that!

[ProSense]

115. It was me dismissing nonsense.

[Waiting For Everyman]

124. It was you making NoSense.

[ProSense]

126. Go look at your first comment and compare it to your current.

Look how far your argument has deteriorated.

[Waiting For Everyman]

133. So my replies aren't up to your high standards, eh?

[Sancho]

86. Maybe Snowden's quote will make the list...

http://www.famousquotes.com/category/paranoid.

It probably depends on what eventually happens to him (if anything).

Snowden's quip, just like Snowden, is not the real issue. The real issue is spying, harassing, and squashing free speech. The article in the OP describes the treatment of Laura Poitras. Combined with the closure of Snowden's encryption email service, it seems apparent to me that the NSA is overreaching and committing unconstitutional acts. That's why that won't to hide their acts to prevent public outcry and court challenges.

[polichick]

99. Well, somebody's paranoid!

I've been away for two weeks and you're still trying to discredit Snowden.

[ProSense]

103. Welcome back.

"I've been away for two weeks and you're still trying to discredit Snowden."

What did you think would change my opinion of Snowden in those two weeks?

I mean, there are people still declaring him a "hero." Does that surprise you, and are they "paranoid"?

Snowden describe himself as such. I'm simply fleshing out a theory based on his statements and news reports.

[polichick]

104. Thanks :)

The administration and those who carry water for it would do better to talk about other things - the people appreciate Snowden.

[ProSense]

109. Then why are you worried about my opinion? n/t

[polichick]

125. Your posts never worry me...

I think of them as quick summaries of whatever the administration is concerned about each day. Very helpful.

[ProSense]

127. Your

"Your posts never worry me... I think of them as quick summaries of whatever the administration is concerned about each day. Very helpful."

...comments say otherwise.

[warrprayer]

100. ...

?w=472

[DesMoinesDem]

106. Anyone have an updated list?

This one is from more than three weeks ago.

OP Beyond his Moscow airport limbo, indignities await Edward Snowden ProSense Yesterday General Discussion
OP Greenwald To Appear At Town Hall For N.J. Senate Candidate Rush Holt ProSense Yesterday General Discussion
OP When It Comes To Extraditions, Russia Often Cooperates ProSense Saturday General Discussion
OP Glenn Greenwald To Testify Before Congress ProSense Friday General Discussion
OP ERIC HOLDER TO RUSSIA: We Will Not Torture Or Seek The Death Penalty For Edward Snowden ProSense Friday General Discussion
OP Senate pushes sanctions on nations aiding Snowden ProSense Thursday General Discussion
OP Bolivia forgives European countries for air space incident ProSense Wednesday General Discussion
OP Updated: Fugitive Snowden to stay for now at Moscow airport: Russian lawyer ProSense Wednesday General Discussion
OP Attitudes Shift Against Snowden; Fewer than Half Say NSA is Unjustified ProSense Wednesday General Discussion
OP Senator Slams Domestic Spying: ‘Secret Law Has No Place In America’ ProSense Tuesday General Discussion
OP Snowden plans to settle and work in Russia – lawyer to RT ProSense Tuesday General Discussion
OP Leaker Snowden hopes to be able to leave airport by Wednesday: lawyer ProSense Jul 22 General Discussion
OP Pew poll: Many Venezuelans want better relations with the U.S. ProSense Jul 20 General Discussion
OP Biden calls Brazil's Rousseff over NSA spying tensions ProSense Jul 19 General Discussion
OP U.S. court renews surveillance program exposed by Snowden ProSense Jul 19 General Discussion
OP Two U.S. senators suggest moving G20 from Russia over Snowden ProSense Jul 19 General Discussion
OP Kerry talked to Venezuela about Snowden: US ProSense Jul 19 General Discussion
OP Oath Keepers Heart Edward Snowden! ProSense Jul 19 General Discussion
OP Russia says knows of no plan for Snowden to seek citizenship ProSense Jul 19 General Discussion
OP Snowden has no crediblity, and deserves no thanks. ProSense Jul 18 General Discussion
OP Guardian Journalist to Write Book on Surveillance ProSense Jul 17 General Discussion
OP What did Jimmy Carter mean by this ProSense Jul 17 General Discussion
OP Sen. Tester Calls On Snowden To Return To America To ‘Face The Music’ ProSense Jul 17 General Discussion
OP "PHOTO: Application for temporary asylum in Russia written by #NSA leaker Edward #Snowden" (WTF?) ProSense Jul 16 General Discussion
OP Edward Snowden Declares Himself Torture-Proof ProSense Jul 16 General Discussion
OP Fugitive Edward Snowden applies for asylum in Russia ProSense Jul 16 General Discussion
OP Carl Bernstein: Greenwald 'out of line' (updated) ProSense Jul 15 General Discussion
OP Greenwald: Snowden Docs Contain NSA 'Blueprint' ProSense Jul 14 General Discussion
OP N.S.A. Leaks Stir Plans in Russia to Control Net ProSense Jul 14 General Discussion
OP Greenwald tries to do damage control ProSense Jul 13 General Discussion
OP Snowden documents could be 'worst nightmare' for U.S.: journalist ProSense Jul 13 General Discussion
OP Russia 'has not received' Snowden asylum bid ProSense Jul 13 General Discussion
OP Carney responds to question about Snowden meeting with human rights groups. ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP Obama Spoke With Putin On Snowden, ‘Cooperation On Counter-Terrorism’ ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP Greenwald: Snowden asylum 'unlikely' to stop me from publishing leaks ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP If Snowden's case as a whistleblower is so strong, why is he afraid to face the consequences? ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP How the Snowden Affair Became a Freak Show ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP Edward Snowden caught in asylum catch-22 ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP Updated: US ambassador to Russia disputes claim sent message to Snowden ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP Russia says Snowden could stay if he stops harming US ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP "Big news is that #Snowden is applying for political asylum in Russia" (updated) ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP Purported E-Mail From Snowden Asks for Meeting With Rights Groups ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP The ACLU's own text contradicts its case for Snowden's asylum bid. ProSense Jul 12 General Discussion
OP Brazil May Seek to Speak With Snowden as Spy Allegations Spread ProSense Jul 10 General Discussion
OP Which Other Countries Are ‘In Bed’ With The NSA? ProSense Jul 10 General Discussion
OP Brazil lawmaker: US spying won't hurt relations ProSense Jul 10 General Discussion
OP Snowden: I never gave any information to Chinese or Russian governments ProSense Jul 10 General Discussion
OP Fugitive Snowden likely Venezuela bound, says U.S. journalist (Greenwald) ProSense Jul 9 General Discussion
OP Wikileaks: Snowden Has Not Formally Accepted Asylum Anywhere Yet ProSense Jul 9 General Discussion
OP North Korea uses Snowden in propaganda video ProSense Jul 9 General Discussion
OP Snowden Mentioned ‘Direct Access’ In Interview With The Guardian ProSense Jul 8 General Discussion
OP Irony ProSense Jul 8 General Discussion
OP Here's what the Snowden videos did ProSense Jul 8 General Discussion
OP Glenn Greenwald: Edward Snowden "Satisfied" by Global Outrage over U.S. Surveillance Operations ProSense Jul 8 General Discussion
OP Snowden affair clouds U.S. attempts to press China to curb cyber theft ProSense Jul 8 General Discussion
OP Snowden Anticipated Being Accused Of Violating Espionage Act ProSense Jul 8 General Discussion
OP Josh Marshall: Kinda Curious What That Means (Ellsberg's claim) ProSense Jul 8 General Discussion
OP Der Spiegel: Do private companies help the NSA? Snowden: Yes. But it's hard to prove that. ProSense Jul 7 General Discussion
OP Snowden: Other nations use NSA surveillance info ProSense Jul 7 General Discussion
OP Snowden isn't a whistleblower because...the law. ProSense Jul 6 General Discussion
OP Glenn Greenwald: Edward Snowden Confirmed WikiLeaks Statement Was Written By Him ProSense Jul 6 General Discussion
OP A big "FU" to the United States by other countries? ProSense Jul 6 General Discussion
OP More on Venezuela's offer (Is everyone sure this isn't rhetoric?) ProSense Jul 5 General Discussion
OP Will Venezuela follow through on Snowden offer? ProSense Jul 5 General Discussion
OP White House: no comment on Venezuela's asylum offer to Snowden ProSense Jul 5 General Discussion
OP Icelandic Lawmaker Claims Snowden Expressed ‘Gratitude’ For Citizenship Vote ProSense Jul 5 General Discussion
OP Wikileaks: Snowden Has Requested Asylum From Six More Countries ProSense Jul 5 General Discussion
OP Who started the rumor about Snowden being on President Morales' plane? ProSense Jul 5 General Discussion
OP South American leftist leaders rally to Bolivia's side in Snowden saga ProSense Jul 4 General Discussion
OP Snowden’s asylum request rejected (Norway) ProSense Jul 4 General Discussion
OP What Kind Of Coward Is Edward Snowden? ProSense Jul 4 General Discussion
OP Obama, Merkel agree to talks on U.S. spying ProSense Jul 4 General Discussion
OP Russia shows growing impatience over Snowden's airport stay ProSense Jul 4 General Discussion
OP Updated: France, Italy reject Snowden asylum request ProSense Jul 4 General Discussion
OP The hyperbole is getting thick. ProSense Jul 3 General Discussion
OP Why Won’t Anyone Take Edward Snowden? ProSense Jul 3 General Discussion
OP Wikileaks Spokesman: U.S. ‘Obviously’ Responsible For ‘Outrageous’ Incident With Bolivian President’ ProSense Jul 3 General Discussion
OP Audio purportedly from inside the cockpit of Bolivian President Evo Morales’s flight ProSense Jul 3 General Discussion
OP Wikileaks Spokesman Insists Snowden Statement Is Genuine ProSense Jul 3 General Discussion
OP The Guardian: Snowden Is A Whistleblower, Not A Spy ProSense Jul 3 General Discussion
OP Why are countries still cooperating with the United States on Snowden? ProSense Jul 3 General Discussion
OP Why didn't Bolivia's President give Snowden a lift? ProSense Jul 2 General Discussion
OP Bolivia: Presidential plane forced to land after false rumors of Snowden onboard ProSense Jul 2 General Discussion
OP There Are 12 Million Stateless People Around The World, But Edward Snowden Isn’t One Of Them ProSense Jul 2 General Discussion
OP Updated: India, Brazil reject Snowden’s asylum request; Snowden withdraws request to Russia ProSense Jul 2 General Discussion
OP Rafael Correa: we helped Snowden by mistake ProSense Jul 1 General Discussion
OP Josh Marshall: "Snowden’s pretty screwed." ProSense Jul 1 General Discussion
OP Report: Edward Snowden Breaks Silence (updated) ProSense Jul 1 General Discussion
OP Who should Edward Snowden be compared to? ProSense Jun 30 General Discussion
OP Assange stands by Edward Snowden as Ecuador's Correa reprimands consul ProSense Jun 30 General Discussion
OP With Julian Assange Taking the Spotlight, Edward Snowden's Future Looks Grim ProSense Jun 30 General Discussion
OP Ecuadoran President Correa Gives VP Biden An Earful ProSense Jun 29 General Discussion
OP Am I missing something about the latest revelations regarding the EU? ProSense Jun 29 General Discussion
OP Analysis: Snowden's options appear to narrow in bid to evade U.S. arrest ProSense Jun 28 General Discussion
OP Jimmy Carter on Snowden: "He's obviously violated the laws of America, for which he's responsible." ProSense Jun 28 General Discussion
OP Ecuador cools on Edward Snowden asylum as Assange frustration grows ProSense Jun 28 General Discussion
OP Ecuador has no plans to halt commerce ties over Snowden: Correa ProSense Jun 27 General Discussion
OP Exclusive: Documents Illuminate Ecuador’s Spying Practices ProSense Jun 27 General Discussion
OP The Errors of Edward Snowden and His Global Hypocrisy Tour ProSense Jun 27 General Discussion
OP Ecuador Says Snowden Asylum Document Unauthorized ProSense Jun 27 General Discussion
OP Ecuador denies giving Snowden a travel document: report ProSense Jun 26 General Discussion
OP Spanish judge Baltasar Garzon says his legal team won’t represent NSA leaker Edward Snowden ProSense Jun 26 General Discussion
OP Russia spies may be chatting with "tasty morsel" Snowden ProSense Jun 25 General Discussion
OP Putin Says Dealing With Snowden Issue ‘Like Shearing A Pig’ ProSense Jun 25 General Discussion
OP Edward Snowden never crossed border into Russia, says foreign minister ProSense Jun 25 General Discussion
OP Op-Ed In Chinese Communist Party Newspaper Blasts Washington Over Snowden, Hacking ProSense Jun 25 General Discussion
OP Hayes Challenges Greenwald: Snowden Undermines Defenders If He Goes To Nations That Hate Free Press ProSense Jun 24 General Discussion
OP Greenwald: I Didn’t Even Know Snowden’s Name Until He Was In Hong Kong ProSense Jun 24 General Discussion
OP Snowden plans more leaks...will let foreign press decide if leaks endanger Americans ProSense Jun 24 General Discussion
OP Snowden’s Attorney: ‘He Never Anticipated This Would Be Such A Big Matter’ ProSense Jun 24 General Discussion
OP The problem with defending Snowden. ProSense Jun 24 General Discussion
OP Snowden is one issue and NSA oversight is another. ProSense Jun 24 General Discussion
OP Julian Assange Won’t Say When Wikileaks Began Working With Ed Snowden ProSense Jun 24 General Discussion
OP Report: Kremlin Says Russia Didn’t Know Snowden Was Coming To Moscow ProSense Jun 24 General Discussion
OP Why Ecuador? ProSense Jun 24 General Discussion
OP Which word best describes Snowden ProSense Jun 23 General Discussion
OP China Said to Have Made Call to Let Leaker Depart ProSense Jun 23 General Discussion
OP Maybe Hong Kong is simply relieved to be rid of Snowden ProSense Jun 23 General Discussion
OP Schumer: ‘Putin Always Seems Eager To Put A Finger In the Eye Of The U.S.’ ProSense Jun 23 General Discussion
OP Sen. Paul To Snowden: Don’t ‘Cozy Up’ To Russian Government ProSense Jun 23 General Discussion
OP Greenwald Thinks Snowden’s Final Destination Is Still ‘Up In The Air’ ProSense Jun 23 General Discussion
OP NYT: Snowden "staying in an apartment... controlled by the Hong Kong government’s security branch" ProSense Jun 22 General Discussion
OP The ACLU message isn't going to help Snowden. ProSense Jun 22 General Discussion
OP Snowden spy row grows as US is accused of hacking China ProSense Jun 22 General Discussion
OP Snowden is going to be prosecuted. ProSense Jun 22 General Discussion
OP Greenwald: Snowden Charges Show Obama’s ‘Vindictive Mentality’... ProSense Jun 22 General Discussion
OP Is it OK to criticize Edward Snowden? ProSense Jun 21 General Discussion
OP NYT: Documents Detail N.S.A. Surveillance Rules ProSense Jun 20 General Discussion
OP Analysis: Why Edward Snowden isn't a whistle-blower, legally speaking ProSense Jun 18 General Discussion
OP What if Snowden didn't have authorized access? ProSense Jun 18 General Discussion
OP Greenwald is accusing President Obama of making "false" claims, but hasn't backed up his claims ProSense Jun 18 General Discussion
OP Where is the additional information Snowden says he's going to release? ProSense Jun 18 General Discussion
OP Iceland received informal approach over Snowden seeking asylum ProSense Jun 18 General Discussion
OP Excerpt: Obama talks NSA in Charlie Rose interview. ProSense Jun 18 General Discussion
OP Pew poll: Public Split over Impact of NSA Leak, But Most Want Snowden Prosecuted ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP NSA veteran: "So he is transitioning from whistle-blower to a traitor." ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Glenn Greenwald Justifies Snowden’s Fear He Will Be Killed: U.S. ‘Targeted’ Americans In The Past ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP NYT editor's blog: Snowden’s Questionable New Turn ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Edward Snowden Says More Info About "Direct Access" Is In the Works ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Snowden: Obama Should Call For Special Committee To Review NSA Programs ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Snowden: I Didn’t Reveal Any Operations Against ‘Legitimate’ Military Targets ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Snowden basically admits the "direct access" claim was bullshit. ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP "the biggest intelligence leak in NSA history is answering your questions " ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Fleeing the country to avoid prosecution makes Snowden a coward. ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Edward Snowden To Participate In Online Q&A Today ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP Edward Snowden 'not a Chinese spy' - Beijing ProSense Jun 17 General Discussion
OP DNI denies NSA analysts can tap calls without a warrant ProSense Jun 16 General Discussion
OP Jerrold Nadler Does Not Think the NSA Can Listen to U.S. Phone Calls ProSense Jun 16 General Discussion
OP Schieffer Destroys Snowden: ‘I Don’t Remember Martin Luther King Jr. Or Rosa Parks Hiding In China’ ProSense Jun 16 General Discussion
OP Hong Kong rallies in the rain for Edward Snowden ProSense Jun 15 General Discussion
OP Snowden’s Leaks on China Could Affect Its Role in His Fate ProSense Jun 14 General Discussion
OP While working for spies, Snowden was secretly prolific online ProSense Jun 14 General Discussion
OP Kevin Drum: ProSense Jun 14 General Discussion
OP Greenwald: Edward Snowden's worst fear has not been realised – thankfully (cites polls) ProSense Jun 14 General Discussion
OP Snowden Is Using 'Specific' Evidence of the U.S. Hacking China to Stay Out of Jail ProSense Jun 14 General Discussion
OP Snowden Is Not Welcome In The U.K. ProSense Jun 14 General Discussion
OP Leaker's Ties to China Probed ProSense Jun 13 General Discussion
OP Guardian "walked back the 'direct access' claim made in Greenwald’s original article" ProSense Jun 13 General Discussion
OP Report: Snowden Stored Documents On Thumb Drive ProSense Jun 13 General Discussion
OP Poll: Majority Says Snowden Did A Good Thing, But He Should Be Prosecuted ProSense Jun 13 General Discussion
OP Finding the right balance between security and liberty ProSense Jun 13 General Discussion
OP NSA Director Says Leaker’s Wiretapping Ability Claims Are ‘False’ ProSense Jun 13 General Discussion
OP Report: Feds Hunted For Snowden Before He Went Public ProSense Jun 13 General Discussion
OP Guardian issues statement in reply to Rep. Peter King ProSense Jun 12 General Discussion
OP Glenn Greenwald to Pete King: Bring it on ProSense Jun 12 General Discussion
OP Josh Marshall: Curious ProSense Jun 12 General Discussion
OP Greenwald: “We Did Not Want To Just Go And Arbitrarily Disclose Things’ ProSense Jun 12 General Discussion
OP ...Showed Hong Kong Newspaper Documents Revealing US Hacking Attacks On China (updated 2x) ProSense Jun 12 General Discussion
OP Edward Snowden Reportedly Gives Interview To Chinese News Outlet ProSense Jun 12 General Discussion
OP NYT editorial: Surveillance: Snowden Doesn’t Rise to Traitor ProSense Jun 11 General Discussion
OP Eugene Robinson: Edward Snowden’s NSA leaks show we need a debate ProSense Jun 11 General Discussion
OP Bush broke the law. President Obama followed it. ProSense Jun 11 General Discussion
OP AP Editor: Do Not Describe Edward Snowden As A 'Whistleblower' ProSense Jun 10 General Discussion
OP A Very Real Issue (private contractors) ProSense Jun 10 General Discussion
OP "Most significant" leak in history, and likely one of the dumbest. ProSense Jun 10 General Discussion
OP Glenn Greenwald: I Know Where Snowden Is ‘Generally’ ProSense Jun 10 General Discussion
OP Snowden Helped Guardian Reporter With Secure Communication System ProSense Jun 10 General Discussion
OP Ron Paul: ‘We Should Be Thankful’ For Edward Snowden ProSense Jun 10 General Discussion
OP The "biggest leak in US political history" ProSense Jun 10 General Discussion
OP DOJ: No Comment On Snowden ProSense Jun 9 General Discussion
OP What happens if you don't take the loyalty oath to Edward Snowden? ProSense Jun 9 General Discussion
OP What’s the Deal with Hong Kong? ProSense Jun 9 General Discussion
OP Josh Marshall on Edward Snowden ProSense Jun 9 General Discussion

[ProSense]

108. Thanks for

reminding me about that: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023381665#post24

Your list is more entertaining: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=270145&sub=trans

[Logical]

116. Wow, that is embarrassing. She is out of control. n-t

[ProSense]

118. No,

this is "embarrassing": http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023393947#post3

[NoOneMan]

119. That is absolutely disturbing

Snowden has more to fear than the NSA IMO

[ProSense]

121. It is. Why would someone do something as "disturbing" as copying two months of someone's posts?

"Snowden has more to fear than the NSA IMO"

Are you talking about Putin?

[NoOneMan]

123. Im talking about obsessive stalkers

[ProSense]

129. So you agree with my comment? n/t

[NoOneMan]

144. No

I'm currently searching for a double facepalm picture. Maybe I can send you a clue for your birthday

[ProSense]

146. "I'm currently searching for a double facepalm picture."

Well, at least you're keeping busy.

[NoOneMan]

170. Its either that or post 100,000 bluelinks

So Ill pick the healthy choice and laugh a little. Have a good one.

[ProSense]

172. Well, at least you admit that focusing on "bluelinks" is not the "healthy choice." n/t

[Just Saying]

134. Perhaps you need a hobby?

Some people enjoy macramé.

[HangOnKids]

207. Some People Enjoy Crapping In A Punch Bowl

Do you endorse that hobby too?

[Just Saying]

208. Haven't tried either

Last edited Wed Aug 14, 2013, 05:36 PM - Edit history (1)

But whatever floats your boat.

[Vinnie From Indy]

210. Holy Guacamole, that is some list!

Evan after all that, she still has not convinced me that the NSA spying programs under Pres. Obama are not illegal nor has she swayed me to discount the revelations from Snowden and Greenwald about the illegality and dangers of these programs.

There is more at work here than just passionately advocating an opinion. This has entered the realm of fanaticism.

[ProSense]

211. It's not like

you have an agenda or anything: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023087676

I mean, you spend your time calling out other posters. I spend my time calling out Snowden.

Which one is against DU rules?

[Vinnie From Indy]

212. I have actually become an admirer of yours!

As much as I disagree with your ideas in regard to Snowden, Greenwald and the NSA, I cannot help but be awed by your tenacity and prolific output. You are in a class by yourself here on DU. There is no one even close to you in this regard. I sincerely admire your willingness to continue to mix it up in the face of DU's clear and massive rejection of your offerings in regard to Snowden et al.

If you could learn things like nuance, reason and logic, you would make a fine investigator/advocate.

Cheers!

[ProSense]

213. You mean,

"If you could learn things like nuance, reason and logic, you would make a fine investigator/advocate. "

..."nuance, reason and logic" like recognizing that personal attacks and callouts of other posters aren't substitutes for a rebuttal?

[Marr]

128. You've spiraled down into Breitbart territory.

Jesus, this is just pathetically deceitful-- and worse, too obvious. I doubt you'll even get many of the Amen Posse on board with this particular item.

[ProSense]

138. Another comment, another bogus personal attack.

Keep the coming. They don't look good on you.

[Logical]

135. Only 15 recs? LOL. Imagine if the unrec was still in place! n-t

[ProSense]

139. Thanks

for kicking the thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023456236#post118

[hootinholler]

137. So. Fucking. Transparent.

[ProSense]

141. You. Seem. Upset.

n/t

[hootinholler]

142. Not. At. All.

[ProSense]

143. Good. To. Know.

[hootinholler]

145. Should. I. Be?

I mean you are getting exactly what you seem to be seeking. Your slanted commentary and half truth presentation of the article is getting you lots of attention.

Most here see it for what it is, thus is is effectively transparent and wholly ineffective as reasoned argument.

So if your goal was to win hearts and minds you have failed. If your goal was to get lots of attention you have succeeded, um, famously.

[ProSense]

148. That's on you. Now,

"I mean you are getting exactly what you seem to be seeking. Your slanted commentary and half truth presentation of the article is getting you lots of attention."

...point to the "slanted commentary and half truth presentation" in the OP.

The problem the critics have with the OP is likely not "famously paranoid" in the title, but the content of the OP. I mean, look the facts:

The NYT piece shows a person playing spy games, and the snip ends with the "media circus" point. The "every intelligence service in the world" statement is strange. He accuses journalist of being "unforgivably reckless" for using "unencrypted journalist-source communication."

Although the "founders" point is highlighted, the rest of the comment, made during his online chat, highlights a particular problem with the information leaked:

"US Persons do enjoy limited policy protections (and again, it's important to understand that policy protection is no protection - policy is a one-way ratchet that only loosens) and one very weak technical protection - a near-the-front-end filter at our ingestion points. "

He has no evidence of wrongdoing, it's all about technical capabilities (despite his other claim of "criminality&quot . It was that comment that gave rise to the suspicion that he hacked the system. Then came the revelation that he took the information on a thumb drive.

Which is why I say that I still haven't seen any evidence of the NSA spying on Americans.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023423551

[hootinholler]

157. Oh, so you failed then.

Since you were looking to change minds, right?

I wonder why? Might it have something to do with taking things out of context?

[ProSense]

160. Wait

"Oh, so you failed then. Since you were looking to change minds, right? "

...who said anything about trying to "change minds"?

Still, can you point to the "slanted commentary and half truth presentation" in the OP?

[hootinholler]

165. I did.

I said you were either seeking attention or trying to change minds. I thought you subsequently made it clear which you were attempting. Was I mistaken? Were you simply seeking attention? In that case you were famously successful.

There are like 50 or so replies that point out the other stuff. For me to do so would be redundant and time consuming.

[ProSense]

167. "I said you were either seeking attention or trying to change minds."

Is that you projecting?

[NuclearDem]

168. Oh, the more the merrier!

Won't do good for your sanity, unfortunately. Still quite a bit of fun though!

[1StrongBlackMan]

147. This …

Promising sensitive information, the stranger told Poitras to select long pass phrases that could withstand a brute-force attack by networked computers. “Assume that your adversary is capable of a trillion guesses per second,” the stranger wrote.

Plus, this:

I was surprised to realize that there were people in news organizations who didn’t recognize any unencrypted message sent over the Internet is being delivered to every intelligence service in the world.

Equals, IMHO, his story, or her re-telling of it, is not true.

A trillion guesses a second? … Unless her password was a book, or passage from a book in some obscure language, it wouldn’t have taken more than a couple days to crack it because words logically follow other words … and I suspect the NSA knows a little something about linguistics.

If both of those statements are true, then he/they would have been “discovered”, long before he made his disclosures.

[ProSense]

154. Interesting point. n/t

[Bonobo]

155. Wow, you don't understand much about encryption or passwords.

"A trillion guesses a second? … Unless her password was a book, or passage from a book in some obscure language, it wouldn’t have taken more than a couple days to crack it because words logically follow other words … and I suspect the NSA knows a little something about linguistics. "

Passwords have to be words that follow each other logically?

[1StrongBlackMan]

175. No ...

re-read her account of snowden's instructions to her with respect to developing a password ... or not.

But in "phrases", words follow each other logically ... otherwise the phrase has no meaning.

But ahhh ... she knew that she should develop a long nonsensical phrase for her password ... she was only pretending not to know to do it from the start.

[DesMoinesDem]

203. You seem to be completely unaware of the meaning of 'passphrase'

and you are trying to use your ignorance to argue semantics.

[1StrongBlackMan]

218. Okay ...

But did you read snowden's instructions to the author?

It's not about my ignorance (or knowledge) ... It's not about MY semantics.

You are crediting the author with knowledge that snowden pointed out the author didn't possess.

[DesMoinesDem]

219. Your argument makes no sense.

[1StrongBlackMan]

220. Maybe ...

you should read the article ... then re-read snowden's instructions?

[SHRED]

153. The-Sane-Asylum

[ProSense]

162. The-Sane-Asylum: Russia n/t

[bobduca]

158. Spin Furiously, Spin!

Keep spinning! You've achieved so much so far!

At least 15 people decided to rec this despite all the fur and spittle!

[ProSense]

163. Yeah,

"At least 15 people decided to rec this despite all the fur and spittle!"

...really smart people. I mean, it's not the quantity it's the quality.

This thread got 46 recs: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023442971

Here's what he won: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=303665&sub=trans

[bobduca]

166. This Thread is Rec'd by Really Nice Obedient NSA-Loving DU'ers!

indeed.

[ProSense]

171. You're calling them names because they rec'd the thread?

I really don't think you're laughing at the recs. I think you're hiding behind the laughter because you're upset that this is a post criticizing Snowden.

Right?

[bobduca]

173. Pop Psychologist is in, only 5 cents!

Thanks, Lucy! Your advice is priceless!

[On the Road]

169. "It's Important to Understand that Policy Protection is No Protection"

What? That doesn't even make any sense.

Is this supposed to be the justifcation now?

[madrchsod]

178. so when is greenwald coming back to the usa?

he claimed after giving the brazilian government the lowdown on us spying that he wasn't afraid of coming back to the usa.

[alittlelark]

179. Take a deep breath.......

....and move onto another subject. This is getting real old, real fast.

[ProSense]

180. If you do it quietly,

"Take a deep breath...and move onto another subject."

...you could back out of this thread and no one would even know you were here.

[alittlelark]

182. You could back out of this site....

... and we would all be a little happier.

[ProSense]

199. Yeah,

"You could back out of this site ... and we would all be a little happier."

...I bet you would. Snowden fans who constantly label his critics "authoritarian" appear to be projecting. What they want is a utopic forum free of Snowden criticism, a place where every thread declares: Snowden, hero!!!

[ProSense]

202. You're calling someone "delusional" when your post makes no fucking sense?

"If you think that's what DU is, why are you here?"

What the hell are you talking about?

I mean, did you forget your previous comment: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023456236#post182

[Gravitycollapse]

190. Cha-ching.

Make it rain, ProSense.

[Hekate]

193. Interesting OP. Behaving like Spy Vs. Spy in Hong Kong, yet never got himself an escape hatch.

By "escape hatch" I mean a plan for his own safety, such as not spilling his guts until already in a country that has no extradition treaty with the US.

Rubik's Cube? "The restaurant has bad food"? All that and he didn't seem to understand that the Chinese and Russians are Not Your Friend, and that they actually have restrictions on personal liberties we only dream about in nightmares? And that they are really technologically smart, with a whole lot of genius geeks like him, only not free to roam around?

I've been accused of being an authoritarian (oh, please) so I would like to point out that I am in no way defending NSA or TIA or FBI or CIA or any of the other alphabet soup organizations. They are not part of my observation here.

I am simply pointing out, just as I have before, that for a man who seems so intelligent he apparently planned his escapade very badly. He was stuck in the Moscow airport for weeks, and now he's stuck in Moscow the city, and he did not intend for either of those things to happen. He thinks he can control the flow of the information he possesses, and I think his laptop and whatnot have already been squeezed like a sponge and he doesn't know it yet.

[Summer Hathaway]

194. Very astute observations. n/t

[Hissyspit]

197. Not at all, actually.

And the OP is as ridiculous as the OPer's continued absurd misrepresentations of Glenn Greenwald's preface comments on his polical naiveté at the beginning of the Bush administration.

[Summer Hathaway]

224. "Political naivete" ...

Is that what the kids are calling backpeddling on support for the Iraq War when it becomes inconvenient to have done so?

[ProSense]

200. Nailed it, and

who can forget the whining about his passport being revoked: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023143614

[RetroLounge]

198. Ah, today's instructions have arrived...

Here's mine.

Obama: "Famously Milquetoast"

and to your OP:

RL

[ProSense]

206. Kick! n/t

[RetroLounge]

221. Kick Ass!

You are SO cool!



RL