Former Stasi Reaction to NSA “You know, for us, this would have been a dream come true”

[kpete]

Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2013
Memories of Stasi color Germans’ view of U.S. surveillance programs

“It is the height of naivete to think that once collected this information won’t be used,” he said. “This is the nature of secret government organizations. The only way to protect the people’s privacy is not to allow the government to collect their information in the first place.”

Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/26/195045/memories-of-stasi-color-germans.html#.UgfeS0XzWe8#storylink=cpy”

BERLIN — Wolfgang Schmidt was seated in Berlin’s 1,200-foot-high TV tower, one of the few remaining landmarks left from the former East Germany. Peering out over the city that lived in fear when the communist party ruled it, he pondered the magnitude of domestic spying in the United States under the Obama administration. A smile spread across his face.

“You know, for us, this would have been a dream come true,” he said, recalling the days when he was a lieutenant colonel in the defunct communist country’s secret police, the Stasi.

.................................

“So much information, on so many people,” he said.

.....................

...Even Schmidt, 73, who headed one of the more infamous departments in the infamous Stasi, called himself appalled. The dark side to gathering such a broad, seemingly untargeted, amount of information is obvious, he said.

...........


http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/26/195045/memories-of-stasi-color-germans.html#.UgreB9JzGpB

[JaneyVee]

1. The Stasi WERE the terrorists.

[delrem]

9. Yes. That's the point. nt

[KarKar]

37. The STASI were a state organization

It's not terrorism when the state does it. Reference: Drones

[orpupilofnature57]

2. I'll trust his opinion, and appreciate his honesty .

[backscatter712]

3. And the defenders get butthurt when the NSA's compared to the Stasi...

When it comes from the horse's mouth, I think I'll take his word for it.

[cantbeserious]

4. + 1000 - The Pot Calling The Kettle Black - Hurts When The Game Is Over And The Cheer Leading Ends

eom

[Just Saying]

8. No, intelligent people get offended because it's hyperbole.

BERLIN — At its height, the Staatssicherheit, or Stasi, employed one full-time agent for every 63 East German citizens. Taking into account unofficial informers, one out of every seven people in the communist country collaborated, in some capacity, with the secret police. There is probably no population, in all of human history, which lived under greater surveillance than those citizens of the former German Democratic Republic.
...
For all the complaints about the NSA, neither Snowden nor any of his enablers in the media have pointed to any illegality or wrongdoing, a far cry from the daily excesses of the Stasi, which operated at the behest of a dictatorial political system not beholden to any sort of democratic will. Snowden and his allies cannot point to a single instance in which the NSA spying has hurt an innocent person.

Another crucial difference is the purpose of these intelligence services. The Stasi was created to monitor and, more importantly, control an entire citizenry living under the rule of a one-party state. The Stasi, “sword and shield” of East Germany’s Socialist Unity Party, existed solely to keep that party in power, not to protect individuals. Information gleaned by the Stasi was used to defame, imprison and kill those who showed the slightest divergence from the party line.
The same can hardly be said about the NSA, which has operated continuously under Democratic and Republican presidents alike, in a country where people can say whatever they wish about the government without fear of disappearing in the dead of night.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/absurd-attempts-call-nsa-american-stasi-article-1.1400317#ixzz2buCw3fYs

[eridani]

14. So substituting computers for human operatives makes it peachy keen

IMO the fucking Koch brothers are a lot worse than a one party state.

[Just Saying]

15. I don't know how anyone can have knowledge of what the Stasi was and did

And compare what's going on now to that.

I hate the Koch brothers and think we need to get money out of politics. But they don't have 1 out of 7 citizens collaborating with them to spy on you. They aren't arresting or killing their ememies.

Besides I thought this was comparing the NSA to the Stasi not the Kochs.

I didn't say it was peachy keen, I just said it's not comparable to the East German secret police circa The Cold War.

[eridani]

16. I'll bet that Stasi didn't start out big

Just as there was no obvious planning for the Holocaust in 1932.

[Just Saying]

21. Now it's the Holocaust?

One hyperbolic statement at a time please.

I think the more people know about the Stasi, the more ridiculous the comparison becomes. Should we keep the reins on our intelligence community? Absolutely. But making such outrageous claims isn't helping us do that and it makes it challenging to take the arguments seriously.

More on Stasi:

The Stasi developed out of the internal security and police apparatus established in the Soviet zone of occupation in Germany after World War II. The law establishing the ministry, whose forerunner was the Kommissariat 5 (modeled along the lines of the Soviet KGB), was passed by the East German legislature on February 8, 1950, four months after the establishment of the German Democratic Republic. The Stasi, whose formal role was not defined in the legislation, was responsible for both domestic political surveillance and foreign espionage, and it was overseen by the ruling Socialist Unity Party. Its staff was at first quite small, and its chief responsibilities were counterintelligence against Western agents and the suppression of the last vestiges of Nazism. Soon, however, the Stasi became known for kidnapping former East German
officials who had fled the country; many of those who were forcibly returned were executed.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/563751/Stasi

Hey you were right about it starting small, but I think little else is comparable or would ever be tolerated in our Democratic society.

[eridani]

25. You are right about it not being tolerated. Exactly why do you think so many

--of us are making a big public stink about it?

[tkmorris]

17. The NSA has tech the Stasi did not. They don't NEED 1 in 7 narking

And that is the point. If the Stasi had utilized the tools the NSA currently does the damage they would have done with it would have been virtually unmeasureable. Does the NSA abuse what they have in the same manner the Stasi did? Probably not, but they COULD, and that is why it should be stopped right now, before it gets out of control.

[Just Saying]

22. The NSA has no authority to spy on citizens

Let alone to spy on them with the intentions of seeing they tow the party line. We speak freely in this country without fear of government recourse. They can't arrest or even kill us for criticizing our government or President Obama. That is why they are not anything like the Stasi and that's actually the point.

I'm all for reining in our intelligence community which has been given too much power without much oversight for far too long. I think this type of exaggeration is counterproductive to that end.

[DissidentVoice]

27. Do you REALLY believe that?

George W. Bush's USA Patriot Act, rammed through a compliant Congress with little to no resistance from scared Democrats, put paid to that notion long ago.

The main difference is that the Stasi had much lower-tech to work with so their efforts had to be a lot more labour-intensive.

I suggest you read the full text of the USA Patriot Act and then read the First and Fourth Amendments.

My bitterest disappointment with Mr. Obama is that he did not move to rescind this hateful Act.

[Just Saying]

49. I agree the Patriot Act never should have passed or continued.

But you fail to realize that the main difference between the Stasi and NSA has nothing to do with technology. It has to do with the fact that the East German people had no rights whatsoever and were ruled by a one party state that tolerated no dissent and encouraged and even rewarded turning friends, family and even spouses for perceived infractions.

We are not all ring spied on nor are we being controlled by our government. Get real! The conspiracy theories and over the top rhetoric are not helping to fix the problems.

[DissidentVoice]

50. Without saying too much

I worked in Communications/Intel in the Air National Guard...the type of thing that required Top Secret clearance.

The capabilities for surveillance now are exponentially greater than they were years and years ago.

The Patriot Act can empower a rogue President (whoever s/he may be) to be another Erich Honecker in the name of "security."

This graphic from the UK newspaper The Guardian shows us on a par with some of the most repressive countries in the world.



Here's the story...read for yourself.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/nov/13/petraeus-surveillance-state-fbi

[Just Saying]

54. Of course the technology is better than it was 20-50 years ago.

But again, it's not really the point. I think the Patriot Act gave too much power to our intelligence agencies but you still can't compare it to the Stasi no matter how many East German leaders you name. We are not East Germany, not even close and Americans would never accept what went on there during the Cold War.

I'm happy to discuss the overreach of the NSA/CIA/FBI but not conspiracy theories about how we are or are becoming East Germany.

Sorry but I take Greenwald with a grain of salt as he too is exaggerating and sensationalizing the situation which does not I press me. The example he's talking about isn't an average Joe citizen but was involved with high ranking US officials. And if I'm not mistaken, the agent who started all of it was removed from the case and his conduct reviewed. I'm not sure what became of him off the top of my head but GG implies this is just normal ops at the FBI and that's simply not the case.

[DissidentVoice]

65. To paraphrase Governor Tarkin from "Star Wars"...

I fear you are far too trusting.

I have seen too much deception and outright lies by the various Administrations in this country - Republican and Democrat - to not be cynicial, sceptical and, yes, fearful. The levers of power are far too tempting.

The Patriot Act has already virtually nullified the Fourth Amendment.

No, we are not East Germany. East Germany was an artificial state, created by its Soviet masters in 1949, with a Soviet economic and political system imposed, with its armed forces regarded as a direct extension of the Soviet military, under the control of Moscow.

However, the country does not have to be East Germany to be moving horribly in the direction of a surveillance society...which we already are.

[eilen]

55. Actually there is and has been some blowback on journalists

criticizing the government-- targetting by the DoJ etc. I hardly think that consistent with the freedom of the press and definitely more similar to tactics of repressive regimes than free democracies.

[Just Saying]

57. Who, when and how?

I've heard of no such blowback.

[Egalitarian Thug]

34. And just look at these replies. Do you have any doubt what these people would do under

the circumstances that are evolving?

[dkf]

53. Like we haven't figured out we can replace people with computers...

How stupid do some people think we are?

[Jerry442]

19. "Snowden and his allies cannot point to a single instance...

"...in which the NSA spying has hurt an innocent person."

But how could they? The surveillance is secret. The use of the information gathered is secret. If the surveillance turns up something on a person which gets publicly released, then that person wasn't innocent anyway, right? (Think Eliot Spitzer or Scott Ridder).

In the meantime, anyone who might ever think about speaking out publicly against the government has to mull over what the spooks will find when they go over decades of their life with a microscope.

[Just Saying]

24. I'm just not that conspiratorial.

I guess I think power can always corrupt but I don't believe that means everyone in power is corrupt.

I'll keep saying and doing as I please until I see something besides speculation that someone is watching our every move just to have future ammunition against us.

[quakerboy]

29. Thats interesting.

NSA says it "touches" 1.6% of the internet.

1/63 stazi employees = 1.58%

Kinda funny.

Since you seem well informed on the issue, when/how did the Stazi start? What were the predecessors of it, how did it come into being?

[Just Saying]

48. Like others on this thread, you're comparing the NSA

Having phone records to Stasi tactics of intimidation, imprisonment and even death simply for saying something against their government. Not funny but ludicrous.

I've posted at least 3 links on this read with lots of information about the Stasi that answer your questions and more.

[quakerboy]

62. Actually, Im not comparing anything except those two numbers, which I found coincidentally similar

If you want to compare directly, the NSA is only one small part of the US intelligence gathering machine. Add the various other intelligence acronyms and law enforcement agencies, and while the % of people involved may be lower, the actual intelligence gathering ability is obviously far greater. You dont need to hire 1 in 7 people if you can easily listen to every phone conversation and read every email and web search that anyone anywhere does, at any time. You have essentially turned anyone who doesn't use an encrypted service into an unpaid, unwitting informant.

As to the other.. We aren't in soviet East Germany at this time. We just aren't. Very few people are dissapeared in the middle of the night. Few are killed.

That said, it sure looks to me like we are headed in that direction, and opening doors that will allow that sort of thing to increase in the future. We do have an admitted history of using these types of intelligence gathering tools against political enemies (MLK through OWS, its public record). We do have a known instances of jailing people for political reasons(Siegalman, among others). We have war crimes at the orders of our political leaders, gone unpunished. We have a law enforcement community that is going further and further to intimidate the populace, with less and less justification, and as far as I can tell, less and less consequences.

So, no we are not in Germany, under the Stazi. But we do have things that point at the potential to get to a similar state. And every door that we open in that direction is disturbing to some of us, as is every person who "pshaws" at the idea that we could ever get there. That potential is present in every government. Every one of them can get there if things go wrong. And it looks like things are going wrong.

[David__77]

32. Actually, the Stasi were gentle by comparison in many respects, at least toward the end.

They engaged in sleep deprivation, but nothing like the waterboarding/Abu Ghraib sex torture stuff. Their military advisors in Africa certainly were never photographed desecrating corpses and the like. They were dedicated to maintaining power sure, but let's not forget that they voluntarily gave it up without a fight at the end, peacefully.

[Just Saying]

47. First off, you're comparing how we are dealing with prisoners of war

With how Stasi dealt with their own citizens. I'm not going to defend waterboarding as I feel it's unacceptable that we ignore the Geneva Convention but that's apples and oranges.

I highly doubt anyone living in East Germany during the Cold War would agree with your assessment of their secret police as "gentle." Nor did they voluntarily give it up as you claim. I think a lack of knowledge about the Stasi is why some people find it so easy to equate it to our current NSA scandal. I posted a couple of links about them already on this thread. Please feel free to find out how they maintained power.

I think the reality of life under the Stasi is so far removed from American life, that most people can't get their minds around just how bad it was.

Here's another interesting and informative article:

http://www.wired.com/politics/security/magazine/16-02/ff_stasi?currentPage=all

Unlike the prison camps of the Gestapo or the summary executions of the Soviet Union's KGB, the Stasi strove for subtlety. "They offered incentives, made it clear people should cooperate, recruited informal helpers to infiltrate the entire society," says Konrad Jarausch, a historian at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. "They beat people up less often, sure, but they psychologically trampled people. Which is worse depends on what you prefer."
That finesse helped the Stasi quell dissent, but it also fostered a pervasive and justified paranoia. And it generated an almost inconceivable amount of paper, enough to fill more than 100 miles of shelves. The agency indexed and cross-referenced 5.6 million names in its central card catalog alone. Hundreds of thousands of "unofficial employees" snitched on friends, coworkers, and their own spouses, sometimes because they'd been extorted and sometimes in exchange for money, promotions, or permission to travel abroad.

[David__77]

59. I'm aware of the Stasi techniques.

I do think that they gave it up voluntarily because there was no resistance whatsoever. They purged their own officials that wanted to keep the system and stood back at the end.

I think there ARE people who would agree with my assessment in eastern Germany - I know that there are, but they are in the minority it is true. Among them are many Left Party supporters, for instance. I definitely think there is a better way, but I would prefer the "subtlety" and pervasiveness of the Stasi to the open terror of other regimes, if those were the only choices (which they aren't). On the other hand, I have no problem with the use of intelligence agencies to use non-violent methods to quell right-wing extremism in its various forms. There is no freedom when the right-wing extremists run rampant.

[chimpymustgo]

39. Rather than 1 out of 73 - we've got 100% surveillance and a ONE PARTY SURVEILLANCE STATE.

Please understand what is going on here. We are not a democracy anymore with secret laws and secret courts, a corrupt and venomous Congress, Judiciary and, I am pained to say - President.

[DissidentVoice]

41. The final nail in that coffin was the Patriot Act

Probably the most horrible act in this country's history, along with the Alien and Sedition Act, and the directive to set up internment camps for "enemy aliens" in WWII.

[Just Saying]

46. You're completely exaggerating the situation.

We are not under 100% surveillance. That's ridiculous. And of course we are a democracy.

The first step to rectifying the abuses of our intelligence agencies is having honest discussions about what is actually happening not throwing about hyperbole.

[chimpymustgo]

61. Funny how they won't even tell us "what is actually happening." And they LIE when they do

discuss it.

I think the hyperbole is in the minimization of the surveillance - and misplaced trust in the government.

[BeyondGeography]

5. Worth a read...two cool heads are included at the end

Dagmar Hovestaedt is the spokeswoman for the German Stasi Records Agency, which showed 88,000 people last year what the Stasi had gathered on them. She said the U.S. should consider doing the same.

“This is a study on how to deal with the information the NSA is now gathering,” she said of her archive. "To say that the NSA is the equivalent of the Stasi is too simplistic, but the people who are spied on do have a right to know what was learned about their lives, what they had hoped to keep private that was not. Transparency is essential.”

...Stefan Wolle is the curator for Berlin’s East German Museum, which focuses in part on the actions of and reactions to the Stasi. What becomes clear when studying the information the organization gathered is the banality of evil: Simple pieces of everyday life are given much greater importance than they deserve when a secret organization makes the effort to gather the information.

“When the wall fell, I wanted to see what the Stasi had on me, on the world I knew,” he said. “A large part of what I found was nothing more than office gossip, the sort of thing people used to say around the water cooler about affairs and gripes, the sort of things that people today put in emails or texts to each other.

“The lesson,” he added, “is that when a wide net is cast, almost all of what is caught is worthless. This was the case with the Stasi. This will certainly be the case with the NSA.”

[nashville_brook]

6. k and r

[DevonRex]

7. For THEM it's incomprehensible.

That's how they were. And that's how Putin is still, being ex-KGB. The U.S. was never that way. Neither was the UK. And they still aren't.

The false equivalency you guys keep pushing, we're as bad as they are - or worse, is pretty sick. We aren't and we never have been.

[tridim]

11. Exactly. It really makes DU look bad, which I believe is the point.

[David__77]

33. What is this "makes 'DU' look bad" stuff?

This forum has always been an agglomeration of pro-Democratic, mainly Left perspectives. It's a big tent. A lot of us were glad to be part of the "6%" that disapproved of Bush in October 2011. That core is critical and cannot simply be dispensed with.

[tridim]

36. This forum has never been about praising Russia as a beacon of freedom.

Until now.

[DissidentVoice]

43. Who exactly is "praising Russia as a beacon of freedom?"

[Mojorabbit]

64. No one is. It is a BS statement. nt

[Fumesucker]

12. Umm.. J Edgar Hoover had official Washington terrified of his dossiers on them

A huge number of politicians breathed a vast sigh of relief when old J Edgar assumed room temperature.

You might recall Hoover was wiretapping MLK Jr but thought the Mafia wasn't a problem.

[Egalitarian Thug]

35. Convenient lapses of memory and comprehension seem to plague a certain group here.

Web based Alzheimer’s?

[stillwaiting]

45. I find their naiveté shocking and depressing both. nt

[blackspade]

20. The point is that it could end up that way.

It is not false equivalency to warn folks about what could happen if secret laws, court decisions, and dragnet data collection continues unchecked.

[Waiting For Everyman]

30. "The U.S. was never that way."

The false equivalency you guys keep pushing, we're as bad as they are - or worse, is pretty sick. We aren't and we never have been.

How would you know? Were you on Nixon's "enemies list"? A lot of "good Germans" probably weren't bothered by the Stasi either.

[DevonRex]

31. How original. A "good German" reference.

[KarKar]

38. Don't you have a short memory

http://www.colorado.edu/AmStudies/lewis/film/enemies.htm

List of White House 'Enemies' and Memo
Submitted by Dean to the Ervin Committee

From Facts on File, Watergate and the White House, vol. 1, pages 96-97. Copyright, Facts on File. Among the documents Dean submitted in evidence June 27 were lists "several inches thick" of Nixon's "political enemies."

See Dean Memo on Screwing their Enemies

The "Opponents List and Political Enemies Project" turned over to the Senate committee, Dean said, was compiled beginning in 1971 by various Administration officials and was frequently updated.

In one of the documents, written by Dean Aug. 16, 1971, intended to accompany the undated master list of opponents, Dean suggested ways in which "we can use the available federal machinery to screw our political enemies." Methods proposed included Administration manipulation of "grant availability, federal contracts, litigation, prosecution, etc."

Dean testified that the memo was sent to then-White House Chief of Staff H. R. Haldeman and John D. Ehrlichman, then the President's adviser for domestic affairs, for approval. Dean said he did not know if the plan became operational; however, subsequent memos, also submitted to the committee, indicated that the plan was adopted.

[KarKar]

40. US foreign policy is pretty sick

"we're as bad as they are - or worse"



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions


1 Prior to Cold War

1.1 Russia

2 During the Cold War

2.1 Communist states 1944–89
2.2 Syria 1949
2.3 Iran 1953
2.4 Guatemala 1954
2.5 Tibet 1955–70s
2.6 Indonesia 1958
2.7 Cuba 1959
2.8 Democratic Republic of the Congo 1960–65
2.9 Iraq 1960–63
2.10 Dominican Republic 1961
2.11 South Vietnam 1963
2.12 Brazil 1964
2.13 Ghana 1966
2.14 Chile 1970–73
2.15 Afghanistan 1979–89
2.16 Turkey 1980
2.17 Poland 1980–81
2.18 Nicaragua 1981–90
2.18.1 Destablization through CIA Assets
2.18.2 Arming the Contras
2.19 Cambodia 1980–95
2.20 Angola 1980s
2.21 Philippines 1986

3 Since the end of the Cold War

3.1 Iraq 1992–96
3.2 Afghanistan 2001
3.3 Iraq 2002–03
3.4 Gaza Strip 2006–present
3.5 Somalia 2006–07
3.6 Iran 2005–present
3.7 Libya 2011
3.8 Syria 2012

[DissidentVoice]

42. K&R

[JoePhilly]

51. I always scoffed at the RW claim that "liberals hate America".

It made no sense to me. I didn't know any liberals in real life who clearly hated America.

DU has helped me come to understand exactly how the RW gets the foundation for that meme.

The insanity comes full circle ... the RW claims that Obama is Hitler or Stalin, and the LW claims that the government is (or about to be) the same as in Nazi Germany or the STASI.

[Just Saying]

52. +1

[DevonRex]

60. Yes.

I can't say it any better than you did.

In the meantime, Putin is actually using Neo-Nazis to lure out LGBTs from their homes and beat them almost to death, or actually to death in some cases, after having passed anti-gay laws like Nazi Germany did. But somehow the U.S. is Nazi Germany and WE are called "good Germans" insultingly for saying we are NOT as bad as the Stasi.

Someone is confused and it's NOT you and I.

[DirkGently]

10. Yep. KNR.

[stupidicus]

13. but, but, "it can't/won't happen here!!!" the apologists would say

why the next thing you know they'll be asking you for a tear-filled apology like the one Durbin http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=durbin+gitmo+apology&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fwp-dyn%2Fcontent%2Farticle%2F2005%2F06%2F21%2FAR2005062101654.html&ei=AvAKUs6nJoqMyQHRmIHIAQ&usg=AFQjCNGfwKik7kkXEQGP6HJK8iiejx434w&bvm=bv.50723672,d.aWc delivered for daring to compare Gitmo to a gulag http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/16/AR2005061601500.html a few years back, over the "Stasi" comparisons.

These comparisons are after all, only acceptable during a repub admin, even if the offenses are pretty much the same -- or worse on the part of "the good guys".

[MisterP]

56. last year it was "he's loved abroad where his FP is conducted, not like you soft ingrates"

"look at the half-million Germans surging in adoration at his speeches!"

[stupidicus]

63. lol

I'd say in the places where his FP crystallizes into ugly reality, Yemen, Pakistan, etc, he's generating hatred by the blood-filled buckets full...

[closeupready]

18. Yeah, but his girlfriend is probably a pole dancer.

K&R

[woo me with science]

23. And this is *not* the only comparison coming out of Germany,

from people who have lived tyranny.

[kenny blankenship]

26. Too bad you're past retirement age, Colonel. The US is looking for capable men these days..

Capable of just about anything. In view of your outstanding job experience, however, an H1B work visa can probably be arranged.

[gopiscrap]

28. Imagine that

[markiv]

44. 'height of naivete to think that once collected this information won’t be used'

nobody has commented so clearly or with such authority, as that

[hobbit709]

58. That is exactly the point the defenders fail to get.