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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhile You’re Bashing Russia for its Homophobic Laws, Remember…
"A lot of Americans agree with Ol Pooty-Poot. You might think we are oh-so-enlightened, but dont kid yourselves: all too many of us still hates them some LGBT folks. Haters in and out of government."
More at the link, including some truly vile American homophobes:
http://bluntandcranky.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/while-youre-bashing-russia-for-its-homophobic-laws-remember/
malaise
(267,784 posts)for Jamaica and a poster put up a link to the horrific attack and murder of a transgendered teenager here. I almost asked whether he would object to me posting a link to the Matthew Shephard murder on a Happy Independence Thread for the USA.
Putin is an asshole but he has many equals and betters in the US.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)I hope it was hidden but I rather doubt it.
Happy Jamaican Independence Day, belatedly, malaise!
malaise
(267,784 posts)horrific murder but there is a time and place for everything.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Pootie can...and he does.
That's the difference.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)riqster
(13,986 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)riqster
(13,986 posts)And the fact that they even have to proves that America still has a ways to go in terms of gay rights.
Yes, Russia is awful. And America has made progress. But it is ludicrous to claim that LGBT Americans have achieved 100% equality. Just like African-Americans have not.
RKP5637
(67,030 posts)has a fair number of people that love bigotry and racism, they just have to hate. Even if laws provide equality, the hatred will continue by asshole bigots, racists and homophobes. Fortunately, despite that, progress is made, but there are a fair number that are ever so backward.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It's not so much America having a problem with "gay rights," it's more that Louisiana has a problem with keeping their laws up-to-date with Supreme Court rulings.
The problem is with the nitwits in Louisiana. We, as a nation, are on the right road, getting on the good foot. We're going in the right direction, Russia isn't.
The only one who threw out the "100%" strawman is YOU, you know. So, you put it out there, and you call it ludicrous--fine with that, but no one else said it but you. What's up with that?
riqster
(13,986 posts)Last edited Fri Aug 16, 2013, 01:42 PM - Edit history (1)
... and then blew past the proof of your error,forgive me for not taking your posts seriously. Particularly since you continually minimize the very real harm that is caused by these present-day violations of human rights that occur in our own nation.
Maybe they will get rich. After years in court, after which they could be arrested AGAIN for the same conduct. The fact that you see that as exculpatory tells me that you don't understand how bad it still is here for LGBT Americans.
And that, sir, is why I wrote the post.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Are you seriously telling me, today, that at the time you wrote your post, that you believed Americans were still being arrested in Baton Rouge for being gay? And 'ah, ha!' I'm "wrong" because I don't know this fact that only you seem to know?
That Louisiana story isn't happening this morning, I have to tell you. The problem hit the media LAST MONTH, and was very quickly resolved. It's a done deal. No one is getting arrested in Baton Rouge under those invalid, unconstitutional laws.
A councilman in Baton Rouge declared that the sheriff in that case needed to start apologizing, for starters. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/29/us-usa-louisiana-sodomy-idUSBRE96S14720130729
And the sheriff, feeling the heat, has done that and is initiating steps to get that INVALID and unconstitutional law (that the AG has said will not be enforced) off the books:
http://theadvocate.com/news/6641204-123/gautreaux-issues-apology-begins-push
He's also working with the LGBT community, AND training his staff.
And the ACLU has stepped in:
http://www.wafb.com/story/22957236/aclu-makes-statement-on-baton-rouge-park-arrests-story
And you do understand what "unconstitutional" means? And "invalid?" You do realize that the Supreme Court has consigned those "invalid" and "unconstitutional" laws to the dust bin, over a decade ago?
You have not made your point. In fact, you've only reinforced MINE. People saw a problem, they saw an invalid law being cited, and they stepped up and stopped it.
There was a problem in Baton Rouge, due to ignorance, bigotry, or both, and good people stepped up, complained and fixed it. QUICK. And no, people can't get arrested years from now for the 'sane' (sic) conduct--the Supreme Court has already ruled on that; there's no turning back.
You don't have a right to your own facts, here--that claim is just not accurate. So forgive me if I apply the same degree of "seriousness" to your posts as you do to mine.
The problem in Russia is that, under their constitution, the laws that can fine someone and throw them in jail for two weeks for speaking of gay people, activities, or events is NOT "unconstitutional" or "invalid" by their standards of law. Over there, they CAN use their law to arrest people for the "crime" of being gay. They CAN use their law to intimidate LGBT people, their families, friends and supporters.
The biggest, bigoted jerk in USA is an insignificant foot-stomper compared to Putin. Putin's laws are enforceable--Baton Rouge's--or any "Lawrence v. Texas" type laws-- are not.
riqster
(13,986 posts)And the fact that people can be abused at will because of laws that remain on the books, and perhaps receive an apology later makes it all better?
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It's obvious that you aren't taking my point, for reasons known only to you. You'll probably want to find someone else to fight with.
This is quickly becoming pointless, since you refuse to take the meanings of the terms invalid, unenforceable, and unconstitutional. Look those words up. Also do a little googling on Lawrence v. Texas, and all should become clear to you.
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, INDEED.....
riqster
(13,986 posts)I am not.
Your attitude is that yes, people get abused, their constitutional rights violated, reputations sullied, bogus criminal records created, and that is no biggie, because eventually everything will be made all sparkly shiny clean again. So, we don't, according to you, have a problem.
I am fully aware of the relevant Constitutional ruling. But, unlike you, I see the damage and human pain caused by local officials who do not comply with Lawrence. Unlike you, I see the years of consequences unfairly imposed upon innocent people unjustly accused of "criminal" behavior. Unlike you, I do not think an eventual court settlement and apology magically wipes the slate clean.
You can hide behind theoretical constructs. People who get busted for being gay lack the luxury that you possess.
Putin sucks. He sucks worse than we do. That does not make us good-it just makes us not as bad as he is.
Feel free to luxuriate in your sparkly world of rainbow ponies. Meanwhile, the gay Americans who are still persecuted at the local level in spite of Lawrence will deal with reality.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I'm not "hiding" behind anything, I'm not "luxuriating in my sparkly world of rainbow ponies" (wow, that's certainly an image--you worked real hard on that phrase, I'm sure), I am not being theoretical (I'm giving you FACTS, and you're ignoring them) and you know what else?
I'm not going to feed your Outrage Beast anymore. You just need/want someone to beat up on, and it ain't gonna be me.
You go on and have one of those Real Nice Days, now.
riqster
(13,986 posts)My point was and is that while Russia sucks with respect to LGBT rights, America sucks too, albeit to a lesser extent.
Anyone who wants to argue against that point should not be surprised if some snark flies their way.
And a very good rainbow pony day to you.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I think I was pretty clear as to my POV. Again, you don't have the right to your own "facts" and you don't have a right to unfairly and deliberately "misinterpret" (that's the kindest word I can come up with) my meaning.
But like I said, you need to fight with someone, and it would appear, based on your words, that you're not shy about being "creative" in order to do that.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)because he had sex with a man at a party. The other man claimed he'd been raped rather than admit he'd had gay sex. And a red-state jury bought they "gay panic" defense.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)But prior to 2003, some fourteen states had anti-gay law on the books.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas
So yeah. The Putin-bashing has a bit of a hollow ring to it. Like Chucky Schumer crying that Putin is sticking his finger in our eye. No, Chuck. We're already blinded by our superiority complex.
MADem
(135,425 posts)we LEARN from our mistakes, and we also learn from the progress that other nations have made on this topic.
We're going forward...Pootie and his hatemongers are going backward.
I don't see a "hollow ring" at all, myself.
No one here claims we've always been right, just that we, as a society, and despite some dumbass neanderthal individuals in our midst, have learned the error of our ways.
ConcernedCanuk
(13,509 posts).
.
.
Ask the Vietnamese
the Koreans,
the Cubans,
the Japanese,
the Iraqis,
the Afghanis,
Pretty sure I missed a dozen or more countries the USA has given grief to . . .
we LEARN from our mistakes
?????
Well, I can't see any evidence of that.
Neither does the World.
CC
MADem
(135,425 posts)Sing a different tune every now and again, why don't you?
After a while, and when it's the only note struck, the "America sucks" theme sounds like a a ham-handed parody, like it's some kind of silly caricature of what the right thinks or HOPES a progressive sounds like.
If we hadn't learned anything, we'd be bombing Iran and invading Syria. Instead, we're in the middle of a military drawdown. Kinda ruins your little strawman, there.
The "Neither Does The World" was a dramatic touch....a bit overloaded, though.
ConcernedCanuk
(13,509 posts).
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CC
MADem
(135,425 posts)Those that do not know their own history are condemned to be called out on the internet....
Iraq: http://www.globalresearch.ca/canada-s-secret-war-in-iraq/8110
Escorting the US Navy: Thirteen hundred Canadian troops aboard Canadas multibillion dollar warships escorted the US fleet through the Persian Gulf, putting them safely in place to bomb Iraq.
Leading the coalition Navy: Canadian Rear Admiral Roger Girouard was in charge of the war coalitions fleet.
Providing war planners: At least two dozen Canadian war planners working at US Central Command in Florida were transferred to the Persian Gulf in early 2003 to help oversee the wars complicated logistics.
Commanding the war: In 2004, Canadian Brigadier General Walt Natynczyk commanded 10 brigades totalling 35,000 troops. He was Second-in-Command of the entire Iraq War for that year. When Governor General Clarkson gave Natynczyk the Meritorious Service Cross, her office extolled his pivotal role in the development of numerous plans and operations [which] resulted in a tremendous contribution to Operation Iraqi Freedom, and brought great credit to the Canadian Forces and to Canada.
Helping coordinate the war: Canadian military personnel working aboard American E-3 Airborne Warning and Control System warplanes helped direct the electronic war by providing surveillance, command, control and communications services to US war fighters.
Yep, Canada was one of the most valuable "coalition partners" in that effort--they weren't a "You Forgot Poland"--they were providing warfighting expertise and personnel to the effort. On the down-low, sorta-kinda...so I guess the Canadian Government was a bit shy about touting these details to the citizenry, since this is news to you, but you'll want to go back and ask them about that, I guess.
Afghanistan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_role_in_the_Afghanistan_War
Canada's role in the Afghanistan War began in late 2001. Canada sent its first element of Canadian soldiers secretly in October 2001 from Joint Task Force 2,[1] and the first contingents of regular Canadian troops arrived in Afghanistan in JanuaryFebruary 2002. Canada took on a larger role starting in 2006 after the Canadian troops were redeployed to Kandahar province. There were 2,500 Canadian Forces (CF) personnel in Afghanistan in 2006, of which 1,200 comprised the combat battle group.[2] Roughly 950 are currently deployed in Afghanistan as part of International Security Assistance Force (ISAF). At the 2012 NATO Summit in Chicago, Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced that an undisclosed number of Canadian soldiers would remain in the country to help train and mentor the Afghan National Army until 2014 (though Canadian troops ended their combat role there in 2011).
Vietnam, and a little plausible deniability: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War
In counter-current to the movement American draft-dodgers and deserters to Canada, about 30,000 Canadians volunteered to fight in southeast Asia.[36] Among the volunteers were fifty Mohawks from the Kahnawake reserve near Montreal.[37] One-hundred and ten (110) Canadians died in Vietnam, and seven remain listed as Missing in Action. Canadian Peter C. Lemon was awarded the U.S. Medal of Honor for his valour in the conflict. (This cross-border enlistment was not unprecedented: Both the First and the Second World War saw thousands of Americans join the Canadian Armed forces before the U.S officially declared war on Germany)[38]
In Windsor, Ontario, there is a privately funded monument to the Canadians killed in the Vietnam War.[39] In Melocheville, Quebec, there is a monument site funded by the Association Québécoise des Vétérans du Vietnam.[40] However, many Canadian veterans returned to a society that was strongly anti-war. Unlike the United States, there were no veterans organizations nor any help for them from the government, and many of them moved permanently to the United States. There has been ongoing pressure from Canadian Vietnam veterans to have their comrades' deaths formally acknowledged by the government, especially in times such as Remembrance Day...
Canada's official diplomatic position in relation to the Vietnam War was that of a non-belligerent, which imposed a ban on the export of war-related items to the combat areas.[citation needed] Nonetheless, Canadian industry was also a major supplier of equipment and supplies to the American forces, not sending these directly to South Vietnam but to the United States. Sold goods included relatively benign items like boots, but also aircraft, munitions, napalm and commercial defoliants, the use of which was fiercely opposed by anti-war protesters at the time. In accordance with the 1958 Defence Production Sharing Agreement, Canadian industry sold $2.47 billion in materiel to the United States between 1965 and 1973.[5] Many of the companies were owned by US parent firms, but all export sales over $100,000 US (and thus, the majority of contracts) were arranged through the Canadian Commercial Corporation, a crown corporation which acted as an intermediary between the U.S. Department of Defence and Canadian industry.[5] Furthermore, the Canadian and American Defense departments worked together to test chemical defoliants for use in Vietnam.[41] Canada also allowed their NATO ally to use Canadian facilities and bases for training exercises and weapons testing as per existing treaties.
So.....whatever. It may not be a full-blown glass house, but it's got more than its share of picture windows. And plenty of "secrecy" too.
ConcernedCanuk
(13,509 posts).
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Canada got dragged in because of treaties and political/financial pressure.
WE DID NOT ATTACK ANYONE, nor did we initiate any wars or invasions.
We were puppets of our bully next door,
sadly, we still are
(sigh)
CC
MADem
(135,425 posts)Your argument is actually "They MADE me do it?" and "We're puppets of the bully next door...?"
Don't hold yourselves up to be sanctimoniously superior, morally better, taking the "high ground," and then hide behind that kind of wimpy explanation. It just doesn't cut it.
Really!
You certainly should be sighing, in sheer embarrassment--that was one of the most pathetic excuse-making exercises I've ever seen here on DU.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)...for jingoism.
MADem
(135,425 posts)RKP5637
(67,030 posts)say, often the US is blinded by our superiority complex.
MADem
(135,425 posts)There are thousands of invalid, unenforceable and unconstitutional laws on the books, all over the USA.
The only thing that counts is "Lawrence v. Texas." That came out of the (ultimately "superior"--as in highest law in the land) Supreme Court, and that trumps any bigoted law anyone has on the books, or can try to come up with.
RKP5637
(67,030 posts)struck down to ensure equal benefits across the US. Now as, I understand, if one is married in the military they can also collect married benefits. It is so unfair that states can supersede social security benefits for the remaining one of married gays and deny them SS benefits.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It calls into question a lot of "reciprocal" agreements between states. If states aren't going to recognize marriages from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, how would they like it if the Commonwealth decided to not recognize marriages from their state?
The military is also giving leave to people who want to marry, but the state where they are stationed won't permit it, so they can go to another state and have a proper wedding with family and friends.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-military-same-sex-20130815,0,6573151.story
The decision, which the Joint Chiefs of Staff unanimously backed, places the military in the forefront of the still-contentious national debate over same-sex unions. It follows the Supreme Court ruling in June to strike down the Defense of Marriage Act, which had said the federal government would recognize marriages only between a man and a woman.
Under the new policy, legally married same-sex couples can qualify for military housing allowances, healthcare, access to base shopping exchanges, extra compensation when a spouse in the military is deployed and unable to live at home, and a wide range of other benefits long available to other military families, the Pentagon said.
"It is now the department's policy to treat all married military personnel equally," Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said Wednesday in a memorandum outlining the new policy. He ordered the Defense Department to provide all military spouses and their children the same benefits "regardless of whether they are in same-sex or opposite-sex marriages."
I am very pleased about this, I must say. I worked on the transition team for integrating gays into the military at the DOD level, way back in the nineties. It was an awful lot of work; mostly ensuring that directives were re-drafted to match (what we thought was going to be) the new policy. Then, when Clinton couldn't push it past Congress and the DADT compromise became the fallback position, we had to go do it all over again from the less than optimal perspective, which was a huge disappointment. It's nice to see it finally coming around all these years later; benefits, dependency status, housing, the whole nine yards.
you're in Louisiana. Hard to keep up to date on new laws and such.
MADem
(135,425 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)There is much media coverage of and research on public opinion of same-sex marriage in the United States. Most recent polls show majority support for legal recognition of same-sex marriage. Majority public support for same-sex marriage has solidified, and recent polls consistently indicate support above 50%. Support has increased steadily for more than a decade, with supporters first achieving a majority in 2010. An August 2010 CNN poll became the first national poll to show majority support for same-sex marriage, with nearly all subsequent polls showing majority support.
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The reality of what we have here is far different than in Russia.
With respect to gay rights, the US resembles what our situation was with African American rights in the mid to late 1960's, while Russia resembles Germany's situation with Jews back in 1935. The reality at that moment was vastly different and the trajectory was vastly different.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Yes, Russia sucks worse than we do. But we still suck.
great white snark
(2,646 posts)You and I don't and Repubs don't because of the good that's been done.
Imperfection should be a given.
riqster
(13,986 posts)I have been seeing too much "YAY USA" in the past week on this topic. It seems that all too many of us are relaxing, and we have not win this war yet.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)in 2004 for instance. Even the Log Cabin Republicans, some of the worst enablers in the history of the fight for equality for any group, refused to endorse the incumbent President of their Party he was so bad on LGBT rights and equality. That's how bad our President was from 2001-2009 on gay rights.
Our federal government is in the middle of dismantling laws that discriminate against the LGBT community. To your point, we still suck. If we didn't I wouldn't bother to spend time on it during my show, but to quote Martin Luther King Jr., from where we are we can see the promised land.
In Russia, all the LGBT community can see is a future of increasing hate and repression. We'll be lucky if we can turn that ship around before widespread killing starts happening.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Here's hoping Putin gets a clue in time.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Americans are racists. The issue in Russia, like in South Africa, is about the actual law, not about the feelings some individuals harbor.
Would you say it was wrong for a nation in which some are racist to criticize another nation's policy of apartheid?
riqster
(13,986 posts)I said that Russia is horrible, and that we are not perfect.
All the rest of your post is based on projections from your own mind, and are not my responsibility.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)suggests that you do not see the criticism as valid. That is extrapolation from the language you used.
riqster
(13,986 posts)I am responsible for what I say, and only for what I say. You are responsible for what you say.
pampango
(24,692 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)for knowing what 'bashing' means.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Not much point in answering such.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Your choice of words made your OP seem to mean the oppoiste of what you claim it means. Poorly chosen words on your part. Very poorly chosen.
riqster
(13,986 posts)"A lot of Americans agree with Ol Pooty-Poot. You might think we are oh-so-enlightened, but dont kid yourselves: all too many of us still hates them some LGBT folks. Haters in and out of government.
For example, here is an evangelical Christian pastor who will soon be tried for crimes against humanity. Said crimes being helping to slaughter untold numbers of gay Ugandans. That, dear reader, is some serious hate.
Its all over the country: Kenny Coochy in Virginia, unconstitutional arrests for being gay around the nation, to name but a very few.
Yes, Russia deserves the condemnation it is receiving for its outlandish anti-gay pogrom. Open all the cans of whoop-ass you can find upon them. But perhaps you should also save a can or two for the many homophobic idiots here at home, too."
There are embedded hyperlinks at the blog site that support my case.
ConcernedCanuk
(13,509 posts).
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CC
n2doc
(47,953 posts)riqster
(13,986 posts)That corrupt KGB shit could use a bit of bashing IMHO. And he deserves it.
n2doc
(47,953 posts)Sorry to misunderstand.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Still learning this writing thang.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)It is used to describe attacks by homophobes on gay people 'gay bashing'. This is a fairly well known term in common use. Run it through the Google and see what comes out. If you are about the learning.
Tien1985
(920 posts)Discrimination against Muslims into their laws the way that they have against LGBT people would you feel the same? Since here in the US we have bigots who hate Muslims too?
If a 19 yr old Muslim man was tortured, filmed and murdered for being Muslim while his kidnappers got 3 months and a slap on the wrist--and the IOC had said we will not tolerate protest, peaceful statement/actions that "promote the Muslim perversion" would that leave us no room to stand up because their have been crimes against Muslims in this country?
We are talking about GAMES. Sports. This is more important than human rights? I know what the right thing to do is.
Fuck Putin, fuck the Olympics. I will not play moral relativism over a small group of people who participate in competitive exercise[\b].
riqster
(13,986 posts)The responses to this thread prove my point: far too many of us are standing with a jingoistic fervor, as if America is somehow a place of perfect equality simply because Russia is far worse than we.
We CANNOT afford to relax on the home front. We MUST continue to fight for the rights of our LGBT brothers and sisters. Because if any of us lack equality, none of us have equality.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)Tien1985
(920 posts)Want to stop discrimination in this country. I think many people who are speaking up can and do speak up about both.
There are several threads daily about discrimination against LGBT people in this country and for the most part, I think many DU do something about it when they can.
That should NOT stop us from speaking up and doing something about Russia when it is in our power to do so.
riqster
(13,986 posts)I think the Olympics should be moved. For a start. And that the international community should sanction the hell out of Russia as well.
And that we simultaneously deal with inequality here at home, and around the world.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I don't think that illustrating the relevant degrees of difference between the two nations, in this context at least, is jingoistic.
However, I can certainly understand the bias that would compel a person to conflate the two
riqster
(13,986 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,267 posts)I condemn it in Russia.
I condemn it in Afghanistan.
I condemn it in Uganda.
I condemn it in Jamaica.
I condemn it here.
Makes no differences to me. St. Petersburg or Chelsa NY. I condemn it.
The law in Russia strips the rights of the LGBTQ Community there to even advocate on their own behalf. Therefore, IT FALLS TO US to advocate on their behalf. Especially given the global attention that is fixing to be focused there.
I hope athletes and spectators from around the world all wear pink triangles and rainbow patches, pins, flags, etc. an all their clothes!
I hope that one day places like the middle east and africa see the errors of their ways and repeals their evil hateful laws.
I hope that Jamaica elects even more politicians that will fight for LGBTQ rights.
I hope that America continues our trend of stamping out homophobic laws and attains marriage equality soon.
This isn't about the country where I just so happened to be born, for no matter the country I am a citizen of earth and all of humanity are my brothers and sisters. I will fight for them anywhere.
Call it what you want, but it this is my sincere belief; and I do not regret it and I wont back down.
riqster
(13,986 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)government behind hateful proclamations, that's when it's a problem.
riqster
(13,986 posts)And around the world.
clarice
(5,504 posts)That the LGBT community hear in Texas is starting a campaign
to send Putin thousands of foot long....let's see...how shall I say this....made of rubber...used for....Ok, I think you get it.
I'l betcha he'll be "pootin" after that.
riqster
(13,986 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)Only in Texas.
former9thward
(31,798 posts)In the Middle East only Israel is gay friendly. Most of Africa it is a death sentence.
riqster
(13,986 posts)ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Homophobes in Russia are passing legislation.
riqster
(13,986 posts)But they still terrorize our fellow citizens and we dare not assume that progress will not be rolled back.
Russia was making some progress in the 90's and early aughts, but has backslid at an alarming rate: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia
We must not relax our vigilance here at home.