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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIt's a shame that Democratic abandonment of anti-war has left the door open to Ron Paul types
Same thing for support of spying and the security state...not to mention talk of cutting social security as well as the adoption of "deficit-cutting" austerity rhetoric.
But it's probably as good a sign as any that somewhere along the way we have lost sight of who we are and lost our way.
Time to start thinking about our political principles again and demand that our leadership represent them.
Why don't I attack Republicans more is a question I am sometimes asked... well the simple answer is that they will never listen to me. I have no influence with them, no leverage. But I do, or should, have at lease SOME with my own party. Collectively we all do.
That's why it is so important to work to effect change amongst ourselves because if we don't demand more from ourselves, who will?
mike_c
(36,281 posts)Yep.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Especially when they're doing a better job of defending civil liberties than a lot of Democrats are.
1KansasDem
(251 posts)I'm for my team, no matter what.
There are several current issues where "my team" seems to be wrong.
I won't defend them just because they are on "my team".
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)on some issues IMO.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)And I'll fight them when they want to remove gov't services, regulation, privatize, etc.
They're not all wrong, they just aren't all right which is why I'm a Dem and not one of them. Sad when I have more in common with them than leaders of my own party though.
Hayabusa
(2,135 posts)Their stances on civil liberties be damned, if they had their way every single government program wouldn't exist. "Why have a health department when the cleanliness of restaurants can be handled by a private firm?" I have actually heard a Libertarian say that.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)a decade. Then I waited for our 'team' to take over after we helped get them elected. Bush policies are still in place, the vile Patriot Act, the NDAA which is worse than it was before, Bush's Surveillance apparatus, which instead of being dismantled, is being defended.
I still attack Republican policies, and will continue to do so. I'm waiting to see some Progressive Democratic policies replace Bush's policies.
Chaco Dundee
(334 posts)Thank you for saying that.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)Vacuums are filled,
in Physics,
and in Politics.
I pray that the Democratic Party can find its roots,
and spark some kind of revival before 2016.
In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be [font size=3]established for allregardless of station, race, or creed.[/font]
Among these are:
*The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
*The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
*The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
*The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
*The right of every family to a decent home;
*The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
*The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
*The right to a good education.
All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.
America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for all our citizens."
---FDR, SOTU Address, 1944
There was a time, not so long ago, when voting FOR The Democrat
was voting FOR the above values.
Sadly, this is no longer true.
[font color=firebrick][center]"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone [/font][/center] [center] [center] [/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)mick063
(2,424 posts)I consistently identify with what you write. I don't ever recall reading a post of yours and disagreeing with it.
blue neen
(12,319 posts)Too bad they didn't apply to Japanese-Americans who were incarcerated in internment camps.
I love FDR, but he was a human being just like all of the other Presidents. He did some of the best things for our country, but he also made terrible mistakes.
The same goes for LBJ. It would be great if he could only be remembered for the social programs that benefit us all, however we can never forget about things like the Tet Offensive.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)But please, remind me what exactly LBJ did wrong re the Tet Offensive, given that it was an offensive on the part of the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese despite an agreed-upon ceasefire for the holiday. Just curious.
blue neen
(12,319 posts)were "winning" in Viet Nam were not true. If we were "winning", the North Vietnamese would not have been able to launch the Offensive.
The American public had believed Johnson's claim that the war would soon be coming to a successful close. After Tet, the public's attitude changed.
I remember the daily reports of American casualties versus Viet Cong casualties. The reports were given every morning on the radio like some kind of bizarre sports scores. You know, like we were supposed to be cheering because less American soldiers than Communist soldiers died that day. Very, very sad.
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)one-volume study Vietnam, quotes Ho Chi Minh as saying the Vietnamese forces could lose 10 soldiers to every 1 soldier we lost and maintain that ratio in perpetuity! So much for Westmoreland's strategy of attrition.
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)of 'attrition' was succeeding and would ultimately prevail, given enough time. This long after LBJ and those around him (like McNamara) knew the war could never be won in any way that a victory would mean anything worth winning. (That is, we could have used nuclear weapons on Hanoi but what would we have 'won,' given such a tactic?)
Tet '68 (and more specifically, Cronkite's after-battle assessment from Vietnam that there was a 'stalemate') gave the lie to that fiction and showed that the 'light at the end of the tunnel' that Westmoreland had said he saw in December of 1967 was the light of the locomotive of Vietnamese nationalism bearing down upon us.
That's in addition to all the various lies Westmoreland and his staff propagated about body counts, NLF and NVA troop strengths etc.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Agony
(2,605 posts)"human happiness and well being"
chervilant
(8,267 posts)thank you for repeatedly pointing out that Senator Wellstone was killed.
Omnith
(171 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)It is commonly called "The Economic Bill of Rights".
Please note that FDR specified these as Basic Human Rights to be protected and administered by our Government OF The people,
and NOT as Commodities to be SOLD to Americans by Private Corporations,
which used to be Republican Doctrine.
Keep the Faith.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)They shouldn't.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)We were on our way to a social democracy...they stopped that.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Excellent post, bvar22. Explains precisely why being a Democrat is different from being a puke or anything else.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)The Tea Party co-opted our outrage when our party sold out to the Corporations...because we were afraid to call out the President and his policies.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)And taxation of corporations.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)Remember 2010? The loss that's blamed on liberals? That was a renewed Repub party and the vaunted independents who were less than satisfied with their last purpose. Where did that all come from, I wonder?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)in off-year elections.
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)shot (thanks a lot, Rahm).
Appeasing fascists (Republicans) never works very well as a strategy. Or, as Harry Truman put it (slightly more diplomatically): "The people don't want a phony Democrat. If it's a choice between a genuine Republican, and a Republican in Democratic clothing, the people will choose the genuine article, every time; that is, they will take a Republican before they will a phony Democrat . . ."
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Harry_S._Truman
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)Why do democrats do nothing but berate young people? Why not come up with things the young can support such as being anti-war, less surveillance, and legalizing marijuana? Democrats could get more votes, but seem disinterested in doing so.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)same story with Mr. "Don't Touch My Junk": he wasn't a Rovian plant either
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)something the Democratic Party might want to consider.
1awake
(1,494 posts)MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)are worse on social security and austerity than Ron Paul.
Paul has always appealed to crazy white people. That's his base.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)pushes for it. It's a numbers game. If the pukes hold 47% of the public, and you know they love the idea of decreasing social security, well then all they need to pick up is 5-10% of democratic support and they are able to do so because the president proposed and endorsed a repuke idea. It just takes a few easily swayable, people without the courage of their social policy convictions to defend the president's republican idea and that repuke Idea now has majority support.
Yes, I think perhaps a republicanish Obama may quite well be worse than Ron Paul because he actually holds the sway to make that bullshit idea a reality.
Color me nutjob.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)someone who wants to abolish federal income taxation?
That's called losing the plot.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)leftstreet
(36,108 posts)What kind of a Democrat tells citizens they must rethink the programs they cherish and hold dear?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)He is pretty old, if sprightly. Kind of like a cheerfully demented elf.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Rand is a cheap substitute for that old fashioned white heterosexual male Christian power style of libertarianism.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)to the root of the problem as expressed in the OP.
You are clearly a reflective person who understands the issue on a much deeper level than so many.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)environmental regulation, the entire welfare state, civil rights protections in the private sector, and worker safety laws and regulations.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)when he explained why he listens to Glen Beck. No need to overthink matters.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)to abolish the EPA and Medicaid, go for it. But I won't listen.
reusrename
(1,716 posts)Permanent everlasting war, the incarceration of pot smokers, and spying on everyone in America are just some of the prices we must pay to keep the EPA and Medicaid.
But don't think about it too much.
disidoro01
(302 posts)I'm not posting the pictures because it will get my tried by the Jury for not falling silent on President Obama's policy on drone deaths.
Fuck those democrats that support this, whether overtly or tacitly, with their silence.
Which are you geek?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)We should welcome any who are anti-war (or anti-needless war). Party labels seem often used as divisive utensils by the powers that be. I agree with Libertarians on some issues, and it seems just saying that is treasonous. It shouldn't be that way.
slipslidingaway
(21,210 posts)on another issue.
I'm not a person who agrees with everyone 100%, nor are most people, and I agree that many times it is more of a tool to divide people to achieve another goal. IMHO too many people are swept up in the idea of their party and then they wonder at the end of the game what they have done.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)From where I stand, while I don't agree with some of what Libertarians stand for - even though I see their logic sometimes - Libertarians are honest and sincere about what they believe, they value the Constitution and the rights of the people. You know where they stand, like it or not, while Democrats and repubs alike seem to divide their time between attacking each other and lying to us.
Hate to put it like that but why pretend, you know?
And yeah, who agrees with anyone 100% of the time?
slipslidingaway
(21,210 posts)I remember watching Ron Paul question Greenspan in late '99 and early 2000 and then listening to a few speeches. There was always a definite line between agreement and disagreement and not a lot of statements that were were grey, unlike many other politicians. I think that is why Kucinich and Paul seemed to have an alliance in some ways, it had nothing to do with agreeing with each other all the time, but more so that each had a clearly expressed position ... right or wrong.
Too many politicians try and pretend and play all sides, unfortunately that has not helped the majority of people.
JI7
(89,249 posts)fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)JI7
(89,249 posts)for those in need have to blame themselves for being such selfish pieces of shits.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)Like in Chicago?
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)for-profit health care while leaving millions without, right?
slipslidingaway
(21,210 posts)"That's why it is so important to work to effect change amongst ourselves because if we don't demand more from ourselves, who will?"
What is that old saying ... we need to make sure our own house in order before speaking of others. Our primary obligation is to our own home before we worry about others. There is a natural defense built in to protect our own, but we need to see what is going on and not turn a blind eye to what is going on under our watch.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Good time to repost this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/100210182
Have I mentioned Ron Paul isn't anti-war?
Ron Paul is a racist, anti-government demagogue. Everything he does benefits the GOP and the rich.
One person voted against the original Afghanistan AUMF
Barbara Lee
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2001/roll342.xml
Ron Paul voted yes.
In 2007, the House voted 218 to 212 to Set Date for Iraq Pullout
House, 218 to 212, Votes to Set Date for Iraq Pullout
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/24/washington/24cong.html
Ron Paul voted no.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll186.xml
In 2007, Ron Paul introduced the Marque and Reprisal Act of 2007
States that no letter of marque and reprisal shall be issued without the posting of a security bond in such amount as the President determines sufficient to ensure the letter's execution.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-110hr3216ih/pdf/BILLS-110hr3216ih.pdf
Of course when he introduced it in 2001, it was "for the capture, alive or dead, of Osama bin Laden or any other al Qaeda conspirator"
September 11 Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001
(b) The President of the United States is authorized to place a money bounty, drawn in his discretion from the $40,000,000,000 appropriated on September 14, 2001, in the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for Recovery from and Response to Terrorists Attacks on the United States or from private sources, for the capture, alive or dead, of Osama bin Laden or any other al Qaeda conspirator responsible for the act of air piracy upon the United States on September 11, 2001, under the authority of any letter of marque or reprisal issued under this Act.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-107hr3076ih/pdf/BILLS-107hr3076ih.pdf
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)Historic NY
(37,449 posts)Rand Paul is a jackass. plain and simple.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)did you even READ the OP? Any of it? Because if you did there is no evidence of it. Either that or it went over your head.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Iliyah
(25,111 posts)2016 vote what ever you guys feel is right. I will - Democratic - hell yes!!!!!!!!!!
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)Or at least I did. Fool me once....well, fool me twice, actually.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)2003 is dead and gone.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)And Afghanistan is totally going to be over this year, too.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Peace would be preferable but I'll take what I can get.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)The drone program is despicable and creates more terrorists than it kills.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)I've posted about these claims, made regularly by the likes of Chomsky and the Guardian, before. They're disingenuous and unsupported by actual evidence, which, scarce as it is, suggests that in fact they do what they're designed to do, which is to create a deterrent effect. Here are a couple of links to posts where I went into some detail to explain why that claim is false:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3061967
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3059434
You are saying it's either a ground war or a drone war in the M.E. and North Africa. How about NEITHER? Why the fuck are Democrats frothing at the mouth over expanding regime change, unrest and war in these areas???
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)Democrats used to demand their candidates be anti-war. Politicians knew if they weren't anti-war they would never get elected. Now they know they can and will get elected no matter what they do.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)I don't condone either but I'll accept drone warfare as a far lesser evil while the political hard work is done to establish real and lasting peace. And it's being done now. It wasn't during Bush-Cheney.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)drone war.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Claimed that malaria killed more Kenyans than the people who died as a result of the cable leaks.
The numbers game is bullshit though.
Mnemosyne
(21,363 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)As if there's only two choices: Ground wars or drone wars. God forbid we don't kill people at all.
Mnemosyne
(21,363 posts)killing them for their own good."
That says it all, imho.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022472789
One less reason to pretend Rand and Ron have anything to offer anyone, KBR and the rest of contractor crowd excepted.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)I hear this phrase over and over as a justification for signature strikes on military-aged males who might be associated with someone who supports a potential terrorist.
The underlying assumption is that we have no choice but to use military force in places like Yemen and Pakistan. Yet this assumption is never challenged, no one every asks "why do we need to be killing ANYONE?" "Because Terra!" is no answer, either.
"I'll take what I can get" is a sentiment that follows from powerlessness and apathy. Stop assuming you are powerless! Stop being apathetic! Call out the sons-of-bitches that push a button and kill a dozen children, then justify it with hollow patriotic platitudes.
you didn't really say that, did you? Talk to the men who dropped bombs on villages in Viet Nam....
Never the fuck mind. You really don't get it and you probably don't have the soul to understand it. Maybe when one is dropped on your very own safe, sanitized block in the good ol' US of A and your son or daughter is blown to smethereens, perhaps you will understand then.
What a shame, and may God have mercy on your soul.
you mean leaving a liquor store with a six of beer and $50.00?
leftstreet
(36,108 posts)JoeyT
(6,785 posts)"Doesn't like being spied on and doesn't like war" as "libertarian" and wonder why all the people that don't like spying and don't like war won't vote for us.
Just kidding. We'll blame liberals, as usual.
ecstatic
(32,701 posts)Yes, I disagree with the establishment in that I think all of our involvement in the Middle East and with Israel should end. But I'm not going to get in bed with the teabaggers to prove my point.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Obama could have rejected war as a solution. He didn't. The door opened and remains open.
Same for spying and Machiavellian drug war nonsense.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Both are democrats. Civil libertarians have been a long left tradition
BeyondGeography
(39,374 posts)of terrorism and the need for any party that wants to win national elections to have an effective response to it. This while also minimizing, sneering at or just plain denying Barack Obama's real FP accomplishments. I don't know about you, but I watched Republicans win many an election questioning Democrats' commitment to defense and our patriotism. What a pleasure it was to see Mitt Romney and his party neutered on those fronts last year, hard as they (pathetically) tried to make Benghazi Barack Obama's 9/11.
Meantime, Obama has gotten us out of Iraq, will end our combat role in Afghanistan and is fully committed to closing down Guantanamo. That said, a fair amount of Muslim male energy still dedicates itself to perfecting the underwear bomb and killing innocent Americans, and the President, damn him, tries to keep up by targeting their leadership.
And, of course, you probably think that's all a steaming pile. Fire away, but my time on this part of the earth has convinced me that you can not hope to sniff a chance at winning the White House without maintaining a level of vigilance on the national security front that many here just won't accept.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)and killing innocent Americans"? Have you been watching the 700 Club with my father?
BeyondGeography
(39,374 posts)Of course, that comes from Authority .
Dustin DeWinde
(193 posts)And also to support rand paul? .Never mind that Paul is a virulent racist and xenophobe, he claims to be anti war so you can live with his bigotry, is that it?
You might as well go speak to the gop because a person with your views will never be taken seriously by me
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I am NOT supporting Ron Paul and I am NOT attacking the left.
Phlem
(6,323 posts)-p
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)want Al Qaeda to win
Dustin DeWinde
(193 posts)or have any patience for paulbots.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)We believe in liberal western democracy and find it shocking that it has to be defended on a liberal Democratic forum.
Caretha
(2,737 posts)Where is Al Qaeda? What does Al Qaeda want? What country/countries support Al Qaeda? What do they look like? Where do they get their money to terrify the whole world? Do they have drones? Do they have tanks & ballistic missiles? Do they have nuclear subs? Do they control the government of countries & if so which ones? How many are there? Can they catch a flight to the US? Are they so numerous & devious that they can scare the entire Western civilization?
I have so many questions.....and so few answers....all I hear is ....
Al Qaeda! They are out to get you and we better beware!
Personally, I'm tired of being Beware! I looked under my bed the other night and all I saw was dust bunnies, but somehow the MIC wants all my tax dollars to defend us from those ....well you knows...those, the Al Qaedas.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)Not me. Maybe that's why I feel so all alone?
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)burnodo
(2,017 posts)as the 04 campaign ramped up, sentiments against the Afghan invasion, the Iraq invasion, and Bush's all-encompassing War on Terra began to be squelched in favor of demonstrating that Democrats could be good little warmongers to an electorate they decided to coddle instead of educate
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)I wonder where they expect us to go?
burnodo
(2,017 posts)"What do you want?? President Romney???"
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Long before the NSA revelations.
Of course, if people want to believe lying hypocritical Libertarians, I can't do much about it.
Particularly as it's obvious they've infiltrated the fuck out of DU.
The change we must work on is of course internally, but it's also externally, to show how these Libertarians are liars and are not actually supporting the position they appear to support.
Safetykitten
(5,162 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)10 years...but the DNC is doing it's every three gen flip...
That's all
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)voting for someone you don't like just because of the party they belong to. I can see why so many just stop voting all together, but I'm not ready to give it up just yet. I will be more selective about who I vote for this time. If my candidate doesn't win the primary then I will consider the alternatives.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And I will leave it at that.
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)sounds like the plan.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)No, no. You can't abandon something you never picked up in the first place. And the democratic party has never, ever been anti-war. Oh, anti-war people tended to vote Democratic, of course there's no oubt there, but the party itself never adopted the idea. Ever.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)I guess that's a good thing, because now we know for sure where they stand and can vote accordingly.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)sufficiently pure, now he's a liberal god. The names may change, but the rhetoric is oddly familiar. No one is obligated to be a member of a political party, and the Democratic party is no exception. I say pick one more to your liking, and save yourself the aggravation.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)eridani
(51,907 posts)That is to say RON WYDEN (D-OR), a Democrat to be proud of.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)It wasn't when Woodrow Wilson lied to the American people and got us involved in World War I.
It certainly wasn't when FDR did everything in his power to get the U.S. involved in World War II.
It definitely wasn't when Truman went into Korea.
I'm 100% positive it wasn't when Kennedy and LBJ escalated Vietnam.
It's amazing how the four most beloved liberals on this site - FDR, Truman, Kennedy and LBJ - were far from being remotely anti-war.
The Democratic Party has never been anti-war. Even in 2004, they nominated John Kerry who voted in favor of the Iraq War.
Stop with the revisionist history.
I do find it amazing that the one Democratic president who actually ended a war, Barack Obama, is considered a warmonger.
When he ends the Afghan conflict, he'll still be considered the most pro-war Democratic president by the revisionists here on the left.
haha
Response to Bonobo (Original post)
darkangel218 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)because of the Democratic Party's embrace of the Intelligence Industrial Complex and their unwillingness to truly challenge the politics of the status quo. Of course the right-wing libertarians hold horrible positions on all kinds of issues - but that is besides the point. People are apt to follow an misguided vision - even a false vision - over no vision - especially in a world where many young people have little to feel optimistic about and existential forces that control their lives grow stronger and stronger.
Caretha
(2,737 posts)and it is scary. I'm seeing it up close & personal.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)and he's pulling out of Afghanistan, a war that their leaders started by deliberately harboring bin Laden.
He's not pro-war.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Become the party that will stop spying and warmongering, while *also* strengthening rather than cutting safety nets.
K&R
B Calm
(28,762 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)That Paul is *really* anti-war, pro-pot, etc...
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)by Obama to figure out what has happened. I can't blame the president or the Clintons or Fromm, etc. they're getting rich off of the chicanery. But the grunt level Dems are getting clobbered and cheering the guy with the mace.
I would say about half of them (the second group) are just hero-worshippers who believe everything Obama says and cling to every shred of evidence that might just barely exculpate him. The other half believe that by "triangulating" our core beliefs, we will somehow push the Republicans into a position where they're too far to the right to be electable. I am unsure exactly how bad things have to get before they will realize how daft this view really is.
The result is, as you mention, that the pacifists have nowhere to go on election day. I might add that the same is true for those who favor HC for all, those who believe in public schools, those who believe in growing social security, environmentalists, and some other groups who would like some crumbs (not ponies) from the government in general and the Dem party in particular. The president has overseen the death of the party of FDR and LBJ.
totodeinhere
(13,058 posts)manifested by such things as drone strikes are so important that I am happy to accept allies who oppose those things no matter where I can find them. If Ron Paul types agree with me on those issues then more power to them. At the same time I can continue to disagree with them on many other important issues. It's not an either or situation and I don't think it's helpful to dismissively tell Paul supporters to "fuck off" when we need their support on the issues that I mentioned.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Happy to K&R this.
libdude
(136 posts)that in many aspects the Democratic party has held firm on many important issues, reproductive rights, womens rights, civil rights, etc. but, here come the real issue, in many ways they have shifted more to a centrist position as to critical issues .e.g. involvement in wars either directly or indirectly, the invasion of Iraq was supported by most Democrats, the toleration of cuts to Social welfare programs, the entertaining of cuts to Social Security and Medicare, etc. Where are the core principles which are not open to compromise?
I have read posts where former Republicans have said that the party had left them and pursued some extremist views and policies, likewise I have read that some Democrats have felt the party has abandoned some long held principles for political convenience. I find a similar perception, especially when a Democratic President pursues a centrist, 1980's style Republicanism.
Cartoonist
(7,316 posts)Anti-war leftists who swarm to Paul couldn't be more wrong. Neither father nor son have an ounce of humanity between them. They would let you die in the street before letting you have health care. Neither are opposed to war, just paying for it. Let an oil exec tell them it's in our best interest, and both Pauls would sanction war.
Maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps someone could steer me to a speech given by either man in which they deplore war and violence on humanitarian grounds. Isolationism is not pacifism.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)who has some very strong convictions - a few of which I totally agree with - most I completely disagree with -
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)But go look for Ron Paul's special orders speech...iiirc in 2003. He tore into the neocons in a way that tells me he would not abide to war to protect shell.
It was the 20% you are Right Ron. His son is even less right.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Rather than readjust, they attack with venom. Flail. Its so transparent.
Its also a shame it gives kooks solid footing
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)There is no point in asking Republicans to do anything. They are out of their fucking minds. So we ask Democrats and get disappointed too.
Our party should stand firmly against faked up, unnecessary wars of choice. Our party should stand firmly against these damned trade deals like the TPP. And there should be no suggestion of cutting social security and medicare from our party.
Without neo-con influence we could actually achieve peace on Earth. But that would never suit the PTB. If we had peace there would be plenty of money for everything else. Unfortunately the PTB would not like it when the money started going somewhere besides their pockets.
Ohio Joe
(21,755 posts)I don't understand using the pauls and their bullshit to do it.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)This is from Rand Paul's mouth about Christie
He wants to increase spending for war and then he makes a claim that he is against war.
As for his lying daddy, he wrote
Anyone who only cares about elections can claim to be anti-war, but when a voter supports proven liars like Ron or big military spenders like Rand, that voter is not a Democrat.
As for this that you wrote
Attacking the elected Democratic President for abandoning an anti-war stance that he never professed is not a way to assert leverage over actual Democrats. Siding with Libertarian, lying nuts against the Democratic President for not endorsing the claims of the accused felon Snowden is not a good way to convince actual Democrats that you are one of them.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)We are borrowing money from countries like China to pay for our wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and it would be interesting to know how many Americans believe we should continue borrowing money and saddling future generations with debt to pay for our current actions in Libya, or anywhere else a new military adventure is taken up.
We are already in two wars that we are not paying for. We are waging war across the Middle East on a credit card, one whose limit is rapidly approaching. And to involve our troops in further conflicts that hold no vital U.S. interests is wrong.
http://www.paul.senate.gov/?p=issue&id=14
That's not anti-war; it is opposition to the current military engagements. I agree with some of this position, but for different reasons. I'm truly anti-war. It's the deliberate bankrupting of the nation and destruction of domestic infrastructure and social programs. I'm anti-war because I think war is wrong.
I tend to attack Democrats more than Republicans because I already know Republicans are the enemy. Democrats are not supposed to be. Betrayal from the inside is more dangerous to the party and the nation; when corruption weakens the Democratic Party to the point that they can't and/or don't effectively oppose Republicans, it's all over. I see that spreading by the day.
As far as attacking the Democratic President for "abandoning an anti-war stance that he never professed..."
Those that think he professed an anti-war stance refer back to remarks he made opposing the war in Iraq before he ever made it to the Senate. I knew better; I listened beyond the "inspiration" of his speeches. I knew he was a hawk. It's one of the reasons I didn't want him nominated. I've opposed his stance on the war since before he was first inaugurated, and I've been proved correct.
I don't have to "side with" anyone to oppose a weak neoliberal president, and I'm not a fan of, nor a supporter of, Rand Paul.
I don't have to convince any "actual" Democrats that I'm one of them. I'm a registered Democrat. I'm an "old" Democrat. I can quite openly and clearly state that, as far as the dlc/centrist/"new" democrat/3rd way/FUCKING NEOLIBERAL brand of Democrat goes...I'm not one of you. Never have been, never will be.
burnodo
(2,017 posts)The anti-war Democrats were abandoned by the party. Bonobo's point was that it was easier for that group to support the disingenuous anti-war bleatings of people like Paul and Son than it was to support pro-war rhetoric from their own party.
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)and then Bonobo praises the empty rhetoric of the airhead Libertarians. It is easier for the Rethugs to support Romney, but the last I knew, this was a Democratic web site.
Obama did exactly what he claimed he would do about the wars, if the RW and the Libertarian followers were going to vote against him on that basis, they have already had two chances.
burnodo
(2,017 posts)since there are still so many paid military contractors there. Obama has perpetuated the military state that came to be in the administrations before him. He's done nothing to fundamentally change that. And the drone strikes? They have increased under Obama exponentially. That's not the action of a progressive president.
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)a lot of countries? We even have military contractors here and we aren't at war with ourselves.
burnodo
(2,017 posts)except for the fact that there's a mission creep where drones are going to be used as domestic enforcement tools
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)but you probably don't get your news through normal channels.
Now I understand, The USA is going to use drones!!!!!
burnodo
(2,017 posts)It already does. Don't you follow the news?
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)going to end discrimination, end poverty in American, end the risk of nuclear war and build the great society. By the beginning of the 70's we were going to do all that as well as end hunger in the world and bring an end to war. However misguided libertarianism is and however absolutely terrible their positions are on any number of issues - they inspire a vision of new America albeit a false vision. The inspire hope for a better and more prosperous future - albeit a false hope. The Democratic vision of today is, "let's be socially liberal while only gradually making minor cuts in the social safety net. Let's reduce the debt burden of the young who have to enter the workforce buried hopelessly in debt to buried in debt with a glimmer of hope. Let's have the strongest military and intelligence network the world has ever known - But let's be more pragmatic about it than the Republicans." Is this a vision people are going to sing folk songs about? Is this a vision that can inspire a young person who has to enter a bleaker and bleaker looking work force without much of a scenario of ever getting out of debt and building a prosperous future?
There simply is nothing inspirational, idealistic or hope building about the Democratic Party's message or agenda these days. The false hope and false inspiration and idealism of American libertarianism is attracting lots of young people and will continue to attract lots more - until the message of hope and change can be shown to be a real vision - not just an empty and cynical campaign slogan.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)Maybe if you attack Republicans the Ron Paul types will listen to you, because you already have some common ground.