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Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 10:00 PM Aug 2013

It's a shame that Democratic abandonment of anti-war has left the door open to Ron Paul types

Same thing for support of spying and the security state...not to mention talk of cutting social security as well as the adoption of "deficit-cutting" austerity rhetoric.

But it's probably as good a sign as any that somewhere along the way we have lost sight of who we are and lost our way.

Time to start thinking about our political principles again and demand that our leadership represent them.

Why don't I attack Republicans more is a question I am sometimes asked... well the simple answer is that they will never listen to me. I have no influence with them, no leverage. But I do, or should, have at lease SOME with my own party. Collectively we all do.

That's why it is so important to work to effect change amongst ourselves because if we don't demand more from ourselves, who will?

165 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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It's a shame that Democratic abandonment of anti-war has left the door open to Ron Paul types (Original Post) Bonobo Aug 2013 OP
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ mike_c Aug 2013 #1
nope arely staircase Aug 2013 #161
K&R forestpath Aug 2013 #2
I find it really hard to be angry at Libertarians sometimes NuclearDem Aug 2013 #3
To many, politics is like a football game. 1KansasDem Aug 2013 #4
Agree, well said! It should never be my team right or wrong! Our team is wrong RKP5637 Aug 2013 #101
I'll stand with a Libertarian on matters of personal freedom and better foreign policy Hydra Aug 2013 #7
Not hard at all for me. Hayabusa Aug 2013 #159
^^^THIS^^^ truebluegreen Aug 2013 #5
Attack republicans, and keep attacking them. JaneyVee Aug 2013 #6
I attack Republican policies, I attacked Bush policies, right on their own territory for sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #14
Amen Chaco Dundee Aug 2013 #70
Even the ones adopted by Obama for his Administration? AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #48
The "Centrist" "New Democrat" Party Leadership has created a HUGE Vacuum on The Left. bvar22 Aug 2013 #8
yes they have. For the first time in 19 years I don't consider myself a democrat. liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #18
I admire you bvar mick063 Aug 2013 #27
Beautiful, inspiring words. blue neen Aug 2013 #56
Inspiring words indeed. truebluegreen Aug 2013 #62
That's when it became increasingly obvious to Americans that LBJ 's claims that we blue neen Aug 2013 #66
Your reference to the daily body counts reminded me that Stanley Karnow, in his HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #121
LBJ allowed the American people to believe that General Westmoreland's strategy HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #119
Excellent post Bvar, as usual! n/t sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #77
"carried into practice for all our citizens" Agony Aug 2013 #92
+ a gazillion, and chervilant Aug 2013 #95
I didn't know FDR said that. Thanks for sharing. Omnith Aug 2013 #97
That is a part of his State of the Union Address in 1944. bvar22 Aug 2013 #105
Those words look so foreign in the current political landscape. DirkGently Aug 2013 #106
40 years of propaganda... nadinbrzezinski Aug 2013 #138
+1 woo me with science Aug 2013 #153
And the Wall Street Dems bounced Henry Wallace for Harry Truman. Octafish Aug 2013 #154
This isn't the first time either Hydra Aug 2013 #9
Yeah, the Tea Party ran on decreasing corporate influence and increased regulation geek tragedy Aug 2013 #15
Who in the last 30 years has run on that? Hydra Aug 2013 #21
Shitty economy, angry voters, old white electorate geek tragedy Aug 2013 #53
Progressive Dems did just fine in the 2010 mid-terms. It was Blue Dogs who took a hard HardTimes99 Aug 2013 #123
Blue Dogs live in more conservative, less diverse districts. nt geek tragedy Aug 2013 #126
I find it surprising that democrats are okay with losing votes to Paul. liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #32
letting the Loyalists, of course, blame the outrage against banksters itself... MisterP Aug 2013 #41
In the absence of any alternate, people will chose other... Egalitarian Thug Aug 2013 #10
K&R n/t 1awake Aug 2013 #11
K&R MotherPetrie Aug 2013 #12
Only a mentally defective nutjob would suggest that Obama and the Democrats geek tragedy Aug 2013 #13
+1...nt SidDithers Aug 2013 #25
maybe I'm a nutjob, but the way I see it, people don't get behind chained CPI unless a democrat Ed Suspicious Aug 2013 #30
So, you think social security cuts and austerity would be less likely under geek tragedy Aug 2013 #52
not being that other guy is not a good enough campaign slogan. liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #58
What kind of a Democrat offers a chained CPI? leftstreet Aug 2013 #31
A flawed one. nt geek tragedy Aug 2013 #55
Fuck Ron Paul and his supporters, btw. nt geek tragedy Aug 2013 #16
I think the Paul the Elder has retired now. Comrade Grumpy Aug 2013 #75
He's a messianic figure to that crowd. geek tragedy Aug 2013 #76
What a substantive response LWolf Aug 2013 #104
No need to overthink matters when it comes to those who would abolish income taxation geek tragedy Aug 2013 #108
That sounds like what a colleague told me LWolf Aug 2013 #135
Hey, if you think there's a nuanced reason to vote geek tragedy Aug 2013 #139
. LWolf Aug 2013 #143
Yep, you're absolutely right. reusrename Aug 2013 #148
Fuck this Geek Tragedy disidoro01 Aug 2013 #110
The problem is the war itself. nt geek tragedy Aug 2013 #114
That door should always be open. Skip Intro Aug 2013 #17
Exactly! What is so wrong with saying I agree with you about this and I disagree with you ... slipslidingaway Aug 2013 #26
Nothing. And I'll say this about Libertarians, Dems, and repubs - Skip Intro Aug 2013 #51
Funny that you say that ... slipslidingaway Aug 2013 #59
fuck Ron Paul and his crazed supporters JI7 Aug 2013 #19
and dumbasses that make he and his supporters possible fascisthunter Aug 2013 #34
no, those who want to cut off funding for things like educaiton, health care JI7 Aug 2013 #60
". . . those who want to cut off funding for things like education . . . " Le Taz Hot Aug 2013 #98
or Philadelphia. liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #131
You do realize that the president wants to profitize education, and Obamacare codifies Doctor_J Aug 2013 #117
This, this, this ... slipslidingaway Aug 2013 #20
Rand Paul: Any attack on Israel will be treated as an attack on the United States ProSense Aug 2013 #22
Yeah, yeah, we get it, the Pauls are assholes. No big fucking revelation there. NuclearDem Aug 2013 #33
Hillary: We’ll “totally obliterate” Iran Fumesucker Aug 2013 #43
To think that she is in an opposition party to the Party of Bomb bomb bomb Iran, McCain. bahrbearian Aug 2013 #96
All the Paulites here should take notice.......... Historic NY Aug 2013 #85
Honest to goddess, Le Taz Hot Aug 2013 #99
Yes, and are you disagreeing that Ron Paul is not anti-war? n/t ProSense Aug 2013 #155
2014 vote - Iliyah Aug 2013 #23
We did think we were electing someone who represented our principles LondonReign2 Aug 2013 #24
The anti-war left is succeeding wildly. You need to replace your CMOS battery. ucrdem Aug 2013 #28
Oh, so that's why the drone program is expanding. NuclearDem Aug 2013 #35
As an alternative to ground war, drones have much to recommend them. ucrdem Aug 2013 #36
No, they don't. NuclearDem Aug 2013 #37
Despicable, sure. Creating terrorists? The evidence suggests otherwise. ucrdem Aug 2013 #44
Nice disidoro01 Aug 2013 #111
the politicians count on that kind of attitude to continue doing whatever they want. liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #40
Drone warfare and ground warfare are worlds apart. ucrdem Aug 2013 #46
I won't accept either. I will not vote for democratic candidates who vote for either gound war or liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #47
Assange said the same thing basically. joshcryer Aug 2013 #64
Post that most clearly shows Bonobo's point! Go Bonobo! nt Mnemosyne Aug 2013 #78
Yeah, I would have picked that one too. Bonobo Aug 2013 #79
A friend from DU sent me a bumper sticker that reads - "It's hard to convince people that you are Mnemosyne Aug 2013 #82
What point? That Rand Paul has no particular objection to drone warfare? ucrdem Aug 2013 #90
"As an alternative to ground war" Maedhros Aug 2013 #133
OMG Caretha Aug 2013 #145
LOL Iliyah Aug 2013 #39
DURec leftstreet Aug 2013 #29
We're going to keep defining JoeyT Aug 2013 #38
I'm anti-war left. I have no desire to hop on Ron Paul's bandwagon. ecstatic Aug 2013 #42
Fine, but the fact remains that the door was opened. Bonobo Aug 2013 #45
Will you get in bed with Wyden and Udall? nadinbrzezinski Aug 2013 #74
There is a puritopian element on the left that refuses to give an inch to the reality BeyondGeography Aug 2013 #49
"a fair amount of Muslim male energy still dedicates itself to perfecting the underwear bomb liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #88
Terra snark...yawn BeyondGeography Aug 2013 #94
so the gop wont listen to you and your solution is to attack the left? Dustin DeWinde Aug 2013 #50
Nope, wrong on all counts. Bonobo Aug 2013 #54
.... Phlem Aug 2013 #57
you got it!! Exactly the same way people who criticize American foreign policy in the Middle East Douglas Carpenter Aug 2013 #107
talk till you are blue in the face, i will never support rand paul Dustin DeWinde Aug 2013 #112
neither will I nor will the posters on this forum who oppose the authoritarian surveillance state Douglas Carpenter Aug 2013 #115
Who is Al Qaeda? Caretha Aug 2013 #146
We abandoned being anti-war? When? Generic Other Aug 2013 #61
You are not alone. n/t PowerToThePeople Aug 2013 #67
still anti-war here. liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #68
The Party surely did burnodo Aug 2013 #102
Then they left a lot of people behind Generic Other Aug 2013 #140
Right back into the fold! burnodo Aug 2013 #141
DUers said they "deparately needed to be heard" long ago. joshcryer Aug 2013 #63
And the truth above will set us free. Safetykitten Aug 2013 #65
Easy, the old coalition is shattered nadinbrzezinski Aug 2013 #69
It feels so good to be in control of one's own vote again. Not automatically liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #71
I have been told that both parties fear a voter revolt nadinbrzezinski Aug 2013 #72
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm Iliyah Aug 2013 #73
then there is hope. liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #80
Abandonment? Scootaloo Aug 2013 #81
well they used to pretend to be anti-war anyway. Now they don't really even pretend anymore. liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #83
Heard the same crap circa 2000. Back then it was poor Al Gore who, ironically, wasn't... Tarheel_Dem Aug 2013 #84
Joe Lieberman. Nuff said. nt Bonobo Aug 2013 #86
He wasn't running for President. Tarheel_Dem Aug 2013 #150
Ron is really hip to the serious problems with the NSA eridani Aug 2013 #87
When has the Democratic Party ever been anti-war? Drunken Irishman Aug 2013 #89
This message was self-deleted by its author darkangel218 Aug 2013 #91
it is an unfortunate reality that many young people are likely to be lost to the libertarian cause Douglas Carpenter Aug 2013 #93
You are so right! Caretha Aug 2013 #147
What war has Obama started? He ended the war in Iraq pnwmom Aug 2013 #100
Easy solution. woo me with science Aug 2013 #103
I don't think there are too many subjects that I would agree with Ron Paul. B Calm Aug 2013 #109
It's a shame so many DUers continue to prop up the myth Blue_Tires Aug 2013 #113
The 3rd Way Dems, at least among the rank-and-file, are either short sighted or too moonstruck Doctor_J Aug 2013 #116
The issues of the security state, NSA spying, and errant foreign policy totodeinhere Aug 2013 #118
du rec. xchrom Aug 2013 #120
Succinctly written, Bonobo! LittleBlue Aug 2013 #122
Could not agree more libdude Aug 2013 #124
Pseudo-Pacifism Cartoonist Aug 2013 #125
I think Rand Paul is a crass opportunist - I think Ron Paul is a genuine ideologue Douglas Carpenter Aug 2013 #128
Not on humanitarian grounds nadinbrzezinski Aug 2013 #136
Its hilarious watching people react when getting outflanked on these traditional issues NoOneMan Aug 2013 #127
I agree, Bonobo. Enthusiast Aug 2013 #129
I can understand going where you think you can do some good... Ohio Joe Aug 2013 #130
kick woo me with science Aug 2013 #132
How would anyone think Rand Paul is anti-war? Progressive dog Aug 2013 #134
. LWolf Aug 2013 #137
"Siding with" burnodo Aug 2013 #142
Obama ended the IRAQ war and has started none, Progressive dog Aug 2013 #156
I'd like a further clarification on "Ended the Iraq war" burnodo Aug 2013 #157
He Ended the war, did you know we have embassies and contractors in Progressive dog Aug 2013 #158
Not yet burnodo Aug 2013 #160
Oh well, I haven't seen a lot aboiut the US fighting in Iraq Progressive dog Aug 2013 #162
Going to? burnodo Aug 2013 #164
I just replied to what you said. Don't you follow the news? Progressive dog Aug 2013 #165
K & R !!! WillyT Aug 2013 #144
there simply is no "vision thing" about the Democratic Party these days. At least in 1964 we were Douglas Carpenter Aug 2013 #149
BIG K&R! nt snappyturtle Aug 2013 #151
kick woo me with science Aug 2013 #152
The Democratic Party was never a pacifist party. CJCRANE Aug 2013 #163
 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
3. I find it really hard to be angry at Libertarians sometimes
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 10:09 PM
Aug 2013

Especially when they're doing a better job of defending civil liberties than a lot of Democrats are.

1KansasDem

(251 posts)
4. To many, politics is like a football game.
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 10:26 PM
Aug 2013

I'm for my team, no matter what.
There are several current issues where "my team" seems to be wrong.
I won't defend them just because they are on "my team".

RKP5637

(67,108 posts)
101. Agree, well said! It should never be my team right or wrong! Our team is wrong
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 09:45 AM
Aug 2013

on some issues IMO.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
7. I'll stand with a Libertarian on matters of personal freedom and better foreign policy
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 10:36 PM
Aug 2013

And I'll fight them when they want to remove gov't services, regulation, privatize, etc.

They're not all wrong, they just aren't all right which is why I'm a Dem and not one of them. Sad when I have more in common with them than leaders of my own party though.

Hayabusa

(2,135 posts)
159. Not hard at all for me.
Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:58 PM
Aug 2013

Their stances on civil liberties be damned, if they had their way every single government program wouldn't exist. "Why have a health department when the cleanliness of restaurants can be handled by a private firm?" I have actually heard a Libertarian say that.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
14. I attack Republican policies, I attacked Bush policies, right on their own territory for
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 10:42 PM
Aug 2013

a decade. Then I waited for our 'team' to take over after we helped get them elected. Bush policies are still in place, the vile Patriot Act, the NDAA which is worse than it was before, Bush's Surveillance apparatus, which instead of being dismantled, is being defended.

I still attack Republican policies, and will continue to do so. I'm waiting to see some Progressive Democratic policies replace Bush's policies.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
8. The "Centrist" "New Democrat" Party Leadership has created a HUGE Vacuum on The Left.
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 10:37 PM
Aug 2013

Vacuums are filled,
in Physics,
and in Politics.

I pray that the Democratic Party can find its roots,
and spark some kind of revival before 2016.

"We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be [font size=3]established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.[/font]

Among these are:

*The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

*The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

*The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

*The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

*The right of every family to a decent home;

*The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

*The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

*The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for all our citizens."
---FDR, SOTU Address, 1944


There was a time, not so long ago, when voting FOR The Democrat
was voting FOR the above values.
Sadly, this is no longer true.



[font color=firebrick][center]"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone [/font]
[/center] [center] [center] [/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center]
[/font]





 

mick063

(2,424 posts)
27. I admire you bvar
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 10:57 PM
Aug 2013

I consistently identify with what you write. I don't ever recall reading a post of yours and disagreeing with it.

blue neen

(12,319 posts)
56. Beautiful, inspiring words.
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:55 PM
Aug 2013

Too bad they didn't apply to Japanese-Americans who were incarcerated in internment camps.

I love FDR, but he was a human being just like all of the other Presidents. He did some of the best things for our country, but he also made terrible mistakes.

The same goes for LBJ. It would be great if he could only be remembered for the social programs that benefit us all, however we can never forget about things like the Tet Offensive.

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
62. Inspiring words indeed.
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 12:19 AM
Aug 2013

But please, remind me what exactly LBJ did wrong re the Tet Offensive, given that it was an offensive on the part of the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese despite an agreed-upon ceasefire for the holiday. Just curious.

blue neen

(12,319 posts)
66. That's when it became increasingly obvious to Americans that LBJ 's claims that we
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 12:33 AM
Aug 2013

were "winning" in Viet Nam were not true. If we were "winning", the North Vietnamese would not have been able to launch the Offensive.

The American public had believed Johnson's claim that the war would soon be coming to a successful close. After Tet, the public's attitude changed.

I remember the daily reports of American casualties versus Viet Cong casualties. The reports were given every morning on the radio like some kind of bizarre sports scores. You know, like we were supposed to be cheering because less American soldiers than Communist soldiers died that day. Very, very sad.

 

HardTimes99

(2,049 posts)
121. Your reference to the daily body counts reminded me that Stanley Karnow, in his
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 02:37 PM
Aug 2013

one-volume study Vietnam, quotes Ho Chi Minh as saying the Vietnamese forces could lose 10 soldiers to every 1 soldier we lost and maintain that ratio in perpetuity! So much for Westmoreland's strategy of attrition.

 

HardTimes99

(2,049 posts)
119. LBJ allowed the American people to believe that General Westmoreland's strategy
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 02:34 PM
Aug 2013

of 'attrition' was succeeding and would ultimately prevail, given enough time. This long after LBJ and those around him (like McNamara) knew the war could never be won in any way that a victory would mean anything worth winning. (That is, we could have used nuclear weapons on Hanoi but what would we have 'won,' given such a tactic?)

Tet '68 (and more specifically, Cronkite's after-battle assessment from Vietnam that there was a 'stalemate') gave the lie to that fiction and showed that the 'light at the end of the tunnel' that Westmoreland had said he saw in December of 1967 was the light of the locomotive of Vietnamese nationalism bearing down upon us.

That's in addition to all the various lies Westmoreland and his staff propagated about body counts, NLF and NVA troop strengths etc.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
105. That is a part of his State of the Union Address in 1944.
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 12:19 PM
Aug 2013

It is commonly called "The Economic Bill of Rights".

Please note that FDR specified these as Basic Human Rights to be protected and administered by our Government OF The people,
and NOT as Commodities to be SOLD to Americans by Private Corporations,
which used to be Republican Doctrine.

Keep the Faith.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
154. And the Wall Street Dems bounced Henry Wallace for Harry Truman.
Sun Aug 18, 2013, 10:56 AM
Aug 2013

Excellent post, bvar22. Explains precisely why being a Democrat is different from being a puke or anything else.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
9. This isn't the first time either
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 10:37 PM
Aug 2013

The Tea Party co-opted our outrage when our party sold out to the Corporations...because we were afraid to call out the President and his policies.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
15. Yeah, the Tea Party ran on decreasing corporate influence and increased regulation
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 10:43 PM
Aug 2013

And taxation of corporations.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
21. Who in the last 30 years has run on that?
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 10:50 PM
Aug 2013

Remember 2010? The loss that's blamed on liberals? That was a renewed Repub party and the vaunted independents who were less than satisfied with their last purpose. Where did that all come from, I wonder?

 

HardTimes99

(2,049 posts)
123. Progressive Dems did just fine in the 2010 mid-terms. It was Blue Dogs who took a hard
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 02:45 PM
Aug 2013

shot (thanks a lot, Rahm).

Appeasing fascists (Republicans) never works very well as a strategy. Or, as Harry Truman put it (slightly more diplomatically): "The people don't want a phony Democrat. If it's a choice between a genuine Republican, and a Republican in Democratic clothing, the people will choose the genuine article, every time; that is, they will take a Republican before they will a phony Democrat . . ."

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Harry_S._Truman

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
32. I find it surprising that democrats are okay with losing votes to Paul.
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:03 PM
Aug 2013

Why do democrats do nothing but berate young people? Why not come up with things the young can support such as being anti-war, less surveillance, and legalizing marijuana? Democrats could get more votes, but seem disinterested in doing so.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
41. letting the Loyalists, of course, blame the outrage against banksters itself...
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:11 PM
Aug 2013

same story with Mr. "Don't Touch My Junk": he wasn't a Rovian plant either

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
10. In the absence of any alternate, people will chose other...
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 10:39 PM
Aug 2013

something the Democratic Party might want to consider.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
13. Only a mentally defective nutjob would suggest that Obama and the Democrats
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 10:42 PM
Aug 2013

are worse on social security and austerity than Ron Paul.

Paul has always appealed to crazy white people. That's his base.

Ed Suspicious

(8,879 posts)
30. maybe I'm a nutjob, but the way I see it, people don't get behind chained CPI unless a democrat
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:02 PM
Aug 2013

pushes for it. It's a numbers game. If the pukes hold 47% of the public, and you know they love the idea of decreasing social security, well then all they need to pick up is 5-10% of democratic support and they are able to do so because the president proposed and endorsed a repuke idea. It just takes a few easily swayable, people without the courage of their social policy convictions to defend the president's republican idea and that repuke Idea now has majority support.

Yes, I think perhaps a republicanish Obama may quite well be worse than Ron Paul because he actually holds the sway to make that bullshit idea a reality.

Color me nutjob.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
52. So, you think social security cuts and austerity would be less likely under
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:54 PM
Aug 2013

someone who wants to abolish federal income taxation?

That's called losing the plot.

leftstreet

(36,108 posts)
31. What kind of a Democrat offers a chained CPI?
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:03 PM
Aug 2013

What kind of a Democrat tells citizens they must rethink the programs they cherish and hold dear?

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
75. I think the Paul the Elder has retired now.
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 01:20 AM
Aug 2013

He is pretty old, if sprightly. Kind of like a cheerfully demented elf.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
76. He's a messianic figure to that crowd.
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 01:23 AM
Aug 2013

Rand is a cheap substitute for that old fashioned white heterosexual male Christian power style of libertarianism.

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
104. What a substantive response
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 11:00 AM
Aug 2013

to the root of the problem as expressed in the OP.

You are clearly a reflective person who understands the issue on a much deeper level than so many.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
108. No need to overthink matters when it comes to those who would abolish income taxation
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 12:59 PM
Aug 2013

environmental regulation, the entire welfare state, civil rights protections in the private sector, and worker safety laws and regulations.

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
135. That sounds like what a colleague told me
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 04:58 PM
Aug 2013

when he explained why he listens to Glen Beck. No need to overthink matters.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
139. Hey, if you think there's a nuanced reason to vote
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 05:56 PM
Aug 2013

to abolish the EPA and Medicaid, go for it. But I won't listen.

 

reusrename

(1,716 posts)
148. Yep, you're absolutely right.
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 10:12 PM
Aug 2013

Permanent everlasting war, the incarceration of pot smokers, and spying on everyone in America are just some of the prices we must pay to keep the EPA and Medicaid.



But don't think about it too much.

disidoro01

(302 posts)
110. Fuck this Geek Tragedy
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 01:10 PM
Aug 2013
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/south-asia/london-gallery-shows-pictures-of-civilian-victims-of-us-drone-strikes-in-pakistan

I'm not posting the pictures because it will get my tried by the Jury for not falling silent on President Obama's policy on drone deaths.

Fuck those democrats that support this, whether overtly or tacitly, with their silence.
Which are you geek?

Skip Intro

(19,768 posts)
17. That door should always be open.
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 10:44 PM
Aug 2013

We should welcome any who are anti-war (or anti-needless war). Party labels seem often used as divisive utensils by the powers that be. I agree with Libertarians on some issues, and it seems just saying that is treasonous. It shouldn't be that way.

slipslidingaway

(21,210 posts)
26. Exactly! What is so wrong with saying I agree with you about this and I disagree with you ...
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 10:57 PM
Aug 2013

on another issue.

I'm not a person who agrees with everyone 100%, nor are most people, and I agree that many times it is more of a tool to divide people to achieve another goal. IMHO too many people are swept up in the idea of their party and then they wonder at the end of the game what they have done.



Skip Intro

(19,768 posts)
51. Nothing. And I'll say this about Libertarians, Dems, and repubs -
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:33 PM
Aug 2013

From where I stand, while I don't agree with some of what Libertarians stand for - even though I see their logic sometimes - Libertarians are honest and sincere about what they believe, they value the Constitution and the rights of the people. You know where they stand, like it or not, while Democrats and repubs alike seem to divide their time between attacking each other and lying to us.

Hate to put it like that but why pretend, you know?

And yeah, who agrees with anyone 100% of the time?

slipslidingaway

(21,210 posts)
59. Funny that you say that ...
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 12:09 AM
Aug 2013

I remember watching Ron Paul question Greenspan in late '99 and early 2000 and then listening to a few speeches. There was always a definite line between agreement and disagreement and not a lot of statements that were were grey, unlike many other politicians. I think that is why Kucinich and Paul seemed to have an alliance in some ways, it had nothing to do with agreeing with each other all the time, but more so that each had a clearly expressed position ... right or wrong.

Too many politicians try and pretend and play all sides, unfortunately that has not helped the majority of people.



JI7

(89,249 posts)
60. no, those who want to cut off funding for things like educaiton, health care
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 12:12 AM
Aug 2013

for those in need have to blame themselves for being such selfish pieces of shits.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
117. You do realize that the president wants to profitize education, and Obamacare codifies
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 02:02 PM
Aug 2013

for-profit health care while leaving millions without, right?

slipslidingaway

(21,210 posts)
20. This, this, this ...
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 10:49 PM
Aug 2013

"That's why it is so important to work to effect change amongst ourselves because if we don't demand more from ourselves, who will?"

What is that old saying ... we need to make sure our own house in order before speaking of others. Our primary obligation is to our own home before we worry about others. There is a natural defense built in to protect our own, but we need to see what is going on and not turn a blind eye to what is going on under our watch.







ProSense

(116,464 posts)
22. Rand Paul: Any attack on Israel will be treated as an attack on the United States
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 10:54 PM
Aug 2013


Good time to repost this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/100210182

Have I mentioned Ron Paul isn't anti-war?

Ron Paul is a racist, anti-government demagogue. Everything he does benefits the GOP and the rich.

One person voted against the original Afghanistan AUMF

Barbara Lee

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2001/roll342.xml

Ron Paul voted yes.


In 2007, the House voted 218 to 212 to Set Date for Iraq Pullout

House, 218 to 212, Votes to Set Date for Iraq Pullout

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/24/washington/24cong.html

Ron Paul voted no.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll186.xml


In 2007, Ron Paul introduced the Marque and Reprisal Act of 2007

Marque and Reprisal Act of 2007 - Authorizes and requests the President to issue letters of marque and reprisal to commission privately armed and equipped persons and entities to seize outside of the United States the person and property of Osama bin Laden, of any al Qaeda co-conspirator, and any conspirator with Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda who are responsible for the air piratical aggressions against the United States on September 11, 2001, and for any planned similar acts or acts of war against the United States in the future.

States that no letter of marque and reprisal shall be issued without the posting of a security bond in such amount as the President determines sufficient to ensure the letter's execution.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-110hr3216ih/pdf/BILLS-110hr3216ih.pdf


Of course when he introduced it in 2001, it was "for the capture, alive or dead, of Osama bin Laden or any other al Qaeda conspirator"

September 11 Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001

<...>

(b) The President of the United States is authorized to place a money bounty, drawn in his discretion from the $40,000,000,000 appropriated on September 14, 2001, in the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for Recovery from and Response to Terrorists Attacks on the United States or from private sources, for the capture, alive or dead, of Osama bin Laden or any other al Qaeda conspirator responsible for the act of air piracy upon the United States on September 11, 2001, under the authority of any letter of marque or reprisal issued under this Act.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-107hr3076ih/pdf/BILLS-107hr3076ih.pdf





Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
99. Honest to goddess,
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 09:10 AM
Aug 2013

did you even READ the OP? Any of it? Because if you did there is no evidence of it. Either that or it went over your head.

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
24. We did think we were electing someone who represented our principles
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 10:54 PM
Aug 2013

Or at least I did. Fool me once....well, fool me twice, actually.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
28. The anti-war left is succeeding wildly. You need to replace your CMOS battery.
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:00 PM
Aug 2013

2003 is dead and gone.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
35. Oh, so that's why the drone program is expanding.
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:05 PM
Aug 2013

And Afghanistan is totally going to be over this year, too.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
36. As an alternative to ground war, drones have much to recommend them.
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:06 PM
Aug 2013

Peace would be preferable but I'll take what I can get.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
44. Despicable, sure. Creating terrorists? The evidence suggests otherwise.
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:19 PM
Aug 2013

I've posted about these claims, made regularly by the likes of Chomsky and the Guardian, before. They're disingenuous and unsupported by actual evidence, which, scarce as it is, suggests that in fact they do what they're designed to do, which is to create a deterrent effect. Here are a couple of links to posts where I went into some detail to explain why that claim is false:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3061967

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3059434


disidoro01

(302 posts)
111. Nice
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 01:14 PM
Aug 2013

You are saying it's either a ground war or a drone war in the M.E. and North Africa. How about NEITHER? Why the fuck are Democrats frothing at the mouth over expanding regime change, unrest and war in these areas???

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
40. the politicians count on that kind of attitude to continue doing whatever they want.
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:10 PM
Aug 2013

Democrats used to demand their candidates be anti-war. Politicians knew if they weren't anti-war they would never get elected. Now they know they can and will get elected no matter what they do.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
46. Drone warfare and ground warfare are worlds apart.
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:23 PM
Aug 2013

I don't condone either but I'll accept drone warfare as a far lesser evil while the political hard work is done to establish real and lasting peace. And it's being done now. It wasn't during Bush-Cheney.

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
47. I won't accept either. I will not vote for democratic candidates who vote for either gound war or
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:24 PM
Aug 2013

drone war.

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
64. Assange said the same thing basically.
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 12:24 AM
Aug 2013

Claimed that malaria killed more Kenyans than the people who died as a result of the cable leaks.

The numbers game is bullshit though.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
79. Yeah, I would have picked that one too.
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 01:28 AM
Aug 2013

As if there's only two choices: Ground wars or drone wars. God forbid we don't kill people at all.

Mnemosyne

(21,363 posts)
82. A friend from DU sent me a bumper sticker that reads - "It's hard to convince people that you are
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 01:40 AM
Aug 2013

killing them for their own good."

That says it all, imho.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
90. What point? That Rand Paul has no particular objection to drone warfare?
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 03:44 AM
Aug 2013
Rand Paul supports "swift drone action" based on a "reasonable suspicion" of an "imminent danger"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022472789

One less reason to pretend Rand and Ron have anything to offer anyone, KBR and the rest of contractor crowd excepted.
 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
133. "As an alternative to ground war"
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 04:35 PM
Aug 2013

I hear this phrase over and over as a justification for signature strikes on military-aged males who might be associated with someone who supports a potential terrorist.

The underlying assumption is that we have no choice but to use military force in places like Yemen and Pakistan. Yet this assumption is never challenged, no one every asks "why do we need to be killing ANYONE?" "Because Terra!" is no answer, either.

"I'll take what I can get" is a sentiment that follows from powerlessness and apathy. Stop assuming you are powerless! Stop being apathetic! Call out the sons-of-bitches that push a button and kill a dozen children, then justify it with hollow patriotic platitudes.

 

Caretha

(2,737 posts)
145. OMG
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 09:49 PM
Aug 2013

you didn't really say that, did you? Talk to the men who dropped bombs on villages in Viet Nam....

Never the fuck mind. You really don't get it and you probably don't have the soul to understand it. Maybe when one is dropped on your very own safe, sanitized block in the good ol' US of A and your son or daughter is blown to smethereens, perhaps you will understand then.

What a shame, and may God have mercy on your soul.

JoeyT

(6,785 posts)
38. We're going to keep defining
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:08 PM
Aug 2013

"Doesn't like being spied on and doesn't like war" as "libertarian" and wonder why all the people that don't like spying and don't like war won't vote for us.

Just kidding. We'll blame liberals, as usual.

ecstatic

(32,701 posts)
42. I'm anti-war left. I have no desire to hop on Ron Paul's bandwagon.
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:13 PM
Aug 2013

Yes, I disagree with the establishment in that I think all of our involvement in the Middle East and with Israel should end. But I'm not going to get in bed with the teabaggers to prove my point.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
45. Fine, but the fact remains that the door was opened.
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:20 PM
Aug 2013

Obama could have rejected war as a solution. He didn't. The door opened and remains open.

Same for spying and Machiavellian drug war nonsense.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
74. Will you get in bed with Wyden and Udall?
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 01:15 AM
Aug 2013

Both are democrats. Civil libertarians have been a long left tradition

BeyondGeography

(39,374 posts)
49. There is a puritopian element on the left that refuses to give an inch to the reality
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:27 PM
Aug 2013

of terrorism and the need for any party that wants to win national elections to have an effective response to it. This while also minimizing, sneering at or just plain denying Barack Obama's real FP accomplishments. I don't know about you, but I watched Republicans win many an election questioning Democrats' commitment to defense and our patriotism. What a pleasure it was to see Mitt Romney and his party neutered on those fronts last year, hard as they (pathetically) tried to make Benghazi Barack Obama's 9/11.

Meantime, Obama has gotten us out of Iraq, will end our combat role in Afghanistan and is fully committed to closing down Guantanamo. That said, a fair amount of Muslim male energy still dedicates itself to perfecting the underwear bomb and killing innocent Americans, and the President, damn him, tries to keep up by targeting their leadership.

And, of course, you probably think that's all a steaming pile. Fire away, but my time on this part of the earth has convinced me that you can not hope to sniff a chance at winning the White House without maintaining a level of vigilance on the national security front that many here just won't accept.

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
88. "a fair amount of Muslim male energy still dedicates itself to perfecting the underwear bomb
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 03:29 AM
Aug 2013

and killing innocent Americans"? Have you been watching the 700 Club with my father?

Dustin DeWinde

(193 posts)
50. so the gop wont listen to you and your solution is to attack the left?
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 11:28 PM
Aug 2013

And also to support rand paul? .Never mind that Paul is a virulent racist and xenophobe, he claims to be anti war so you can live with his bigotry, is that it?

You might as well go speak to the gop because a person with your views will never be taken seriously by me

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
107. you got it!! Exactly the same way people who criticize American foreign policy in the Middle East
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 12:58 PM
Aug 2013

want Al Qaeda to win

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
115. neither will I nor will the posters on this forum who oppose the authoritarian surveillance state
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 01:48 PM
Aug 2013

We believe in liberal western democracy and find it shocking that it has to be defended on a liberal Democratic forum.

 

Caretha

(2,737 posts)
146. Who is Al Qaeda?
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 10:05 PM
Aug 2013

Where is Al Qaeda? What does Al Qaeda want? What country/countries support Al Qaeda? What do they look like? Where do they get their money to terrify the whole world? Do they have drones? Do they have tanks & ballistic missiles? Do they have nuclear subs? Do they control the government of countries & if so which ones? How many are there? Can they catch a flight to the US? Are they so numerous & devious that they can scare the entire Western civilization?

I have so many questions.....and so few answers....all I hear is ....

Al Qaeda! They are out to get you and we better beware!

Personally, I'm tired of being Beware! I looked under my bed the other night and all I saw was dust bunnies, but somehow the MIC wants all my tax dollars to defend us from those ....well you knows...those, the Al Qaedas.

 

burnodo

(2,017 posts)
102. The Party surely did
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 10:05 AM
Aug 2013

as the 04 campaign ramped up, sentiments against the Afghan invasion, the Iraq invasion, and Bush's all-encompassing War on Terra began to be squelched in favor of demonstrating that Democrats could be good little warmongers to an electorate they decided to coddle instead of educate

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
63. DUers said they "deparately needed to be heard" long ago.
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 12:22 AM
Aug 2013

Long before the NSA revelations.

Of course, if people want to believe lying hypocritical Libertarians, I can't do much about it.

Particularly as it's obvious they've infiltrated the fuck out of DU.

The change we must work on is of course internally, but it's also externally, to show how these Libertarians are liars and are not actually supporting the position they appear to support.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
69. Easy, the old coalition is shattered
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 12:36 AM
Aug 2013

10 years...but the DNC is doing it's every three gen flip...

That's all

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
71. It feels so good to be in control of one's own vote again. Not automatically
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 12:53 AM
Aug 2013

voting for someone you don't like just because of the party they belong to. I can see why so many just stop voting all together, but I'm not ready to give it up just yet. I will be more selective about who I vote for this time. If my candidate doesn't win the primary then I will consider the alternatives.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
81. Abandonment?
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 01:38 AM
Aug 2013


No, no. You can't abandon something you never picked up in the first place. And the democratic party has never, ever been anti-war. Oh, anti-war people tended to vote Democratic, of course there's no oubt there, but the party itself never adopted the idea. Ever.

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
83. well they used to pretend to be anti-war anyway. Now they don't really even pretend anymore.
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 01:41 AM
Aug 2013

I guess that's a good thing, because now we know for sure where they stand and can vote accordingly.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,233 posts)
84. Heard the same crap circa 2000. Back then it was poor Al Gore who, ironically, wasn't...
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 01:49 AM
Aug 2013

sufficiently pure, now he's a liberal god. The names may change, but the rhetoric is oddly familiar. No one is obligated to be a member of a political party, and the Democratic party is no exception. I say pick one more to your liking, and save yourself the aggravation.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
87. Ron is really hip to the serious problems with the NSA
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 03:26 AM
Aug 2013

That is to say RON WYDEN (D-OR), a Democrat to be proud of.

 

Drunken Irishman

(34,857 posts)
89. When has the Democratic Party ever been anti-war?
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 03:42 AM
Aug 2013

It wasn't when Woodrow Wilson lied to the American people and got us involved in World War I.

It certainly wasn't when FDR did everything in his power to get the U.S. involved in World War II.

It definitely wasn't when Truman went into Korea.

I'm 100% positive it wasn't when Kennedy and LBJ escalated Vietnam.

It's amazing how the four most beloved liberals on this site - FDR, Truman, Kennedy and LBJ - were far from being remotely anti-war.

The Democratic Party has never been anti-war. Even in 2004, they nominated John Kerry who voted in favor of the Iraq War.

Stop with the revisionist history.

I do find it amazing that the one Democratic president who actually ended a war, Barack Obama, is considered a warmonger.

When he ends the Afghan conflict, he'll still be considered the most pro-war Democratic president by the revisionists here on the left.

haha

Response to Bonobo (Original post)

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
93. it is an unfortunate reality that many young people are likely to be lost to the libertarian cause
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 07:56 AM
Aug 2013

because of the Democratic Party's embrace of the Intelligence Industrial Complex and their unwillingness to truly challenge the politics of the status quo. Of course the right-wing libertarians hold horrible positions on all kinds of issues - but that is besides the point. People are apt to follow an misguided vision - even a false vision - over no vision - especially in a world where many young people have little to feel optimistic about and existential forces that control their lives grow stronger and stronger.

pnwmom

(108,977 posts)
100. What war has Obama started? He ended the war in Iraq
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 09:27 AM
Aug 2013

and he's pulling out of Afghanistan, a war that their leaders started by deliberately harboring bin Laden.

He's not pro-war.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
103. Easy solution.
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 10:56 AM
Aug 2013

Become the party that will stop spying and warmongering, while *also* strengthening rather than cutting safety nets.

K&R

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
113. It's a shame so many DUers continue to prop up the myth
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 01:35 PM
Aug 2013

That Paul is *really* anti-war, pro-pot, etc...

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
116. The 3rd Way Dems, at least among the rank-and-file, are either short sighted or too moonstruck
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 02:00 PM
Aug 2013

by Obama to figure out what has happened. I can't blame the president or the Clintons or Fromm, etc. they're getting rich off of the chicanery. But the grunt level Dems are getting clobbered and cheering the guy with the mace.

I would say about half of them (the second group) are just hero-worshippers who believe everything Obama says and cling to every shred of evidence that might just barely exculpate him. The other half believe that by "triangulating" our core beliefs, we will somehow push the Republicans into a position where they're too far to the right to be electable. I am unsure exactly how bad things have to get before they will realize how daft this view really is.

The result is, as you mention, that the pacifists have nowhere to go on election day. I might add that the same is true for those who favor HC for all, those who believe in public schools, those who believe in growing social security, environmentalists, and some other groups who would like some crumbs (not ponies) from the government in general and the Dem party in particular. The president has overseen the death of the party of FDR and LBJ.

totodeinhere

(13,058 posts)
118. The issues of the security state, NSA spying, and errant foreign policy
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 02:27 PM
Aug 2013

manifested by such things as drone strikes are so important that I am happy to accept allies who oppose those things no matter where I can find them. If Ron Paul types agree with me on those issues then more power to them. At the same time I can continue to disagree with them on many other important issues. It's not an either or situation and I don't think it's helpful to dismissively tell Paul supporters to "fuck off" when we need their support on the issues that I mentioned.



libdude

(136 posts)
124. Could not agree more
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 02:48 PM
Aug 2013

that in many aspects the Democratic party has held firm on many important issues, reproductive rights, womens rights, civil rights, etc. but, here come the real issue, in many ways they have shifted more to a centrist position as to critical issues .e.g. involvement in wars either directly or indirectly, the invasion of Iraq was supported by most Democrats, the toleration of cuts to Social welfare programs, the entertaining of cuts to Social Security and Medicare, etc. Where are the core principles which are not open to compromise?
I have read posts where former Republicans have said that the party had left them and pursued some extremist views and policies, likewise I have read that some Democrats have felt the party has abandoned some long held principles for political convenience. I find a similar perception, especially when a Democratic President pursues a centrist, 1980's style Republicanism.

Cartoonist

(7,316 posts)
125. Pseudo-Pacifism
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 03:08 PM
Aug 2013

Anti-war leftists who swarm to Paul couldn't be more wrong. Neither father nor son have an ounce of humanity between them. They would let you die in the street before letting you have health care. Neither are opposed to war, just paying for it. Let an oil exec tell them it's in our best interest, and both Pauls would sanction war.
Maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps someone could steer me to a speech given by either man in which they deplore war and violence on humanitarian grounds. Isolationism is not pacifism.

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
128. I think Rand Paul is a crass opportunist - I think Ron Paul is a genuine ideologue
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 03:36 PM
Aug 2013

who has some very strong convictions - a few of which I totally agree with - most I completely disagree with -

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
136. Not on humanitarian grounds
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 05:01 PM
Aug 2013

But go look for Ron Paul's special orders speech...iiirc in 2003. He tore into the neocons in a way that tells me he would not abide to war to protect shell.

It was the 20% you are Right Ron. His son is even less right.

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
127. Its hilarious watching people react when getting outflanked on these traditional issues
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 03:23 PM
Aug 2013

Rather than readjust, they attack with venom. Flail. Its so transparent.

Its also a shame it gives kooks solid footing

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
129. I agree, Bonobo.
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 03:36 PM
Aug 2013

There is no point in asking Republicans to do anything. They are out of their fucking minds. So we ask Democrats and get disappointed too.

Our party should stand firmly against faked up, unnecessary wars of choice. Our party should stand firmly against these damned trade deals like the TPP. And there should be no suggestion of cutting social security and medicare from our party.

Without neo-con influence we could actually achieve peace on Earth. But that would never suit the PTB. If we had peace there would be plenty of money for everything else. Unfortunately the PTB would not like it when the money started going somewhere besides their pockets.

Ohio Joe

(21,755 posts)
130. I can understand going where you think you can do some good...
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 03:38 PM
Aug 2013

I don't understand using the pauls and their bullshit to do it.

Progressive dog

(6,900 posts)
134. How would anyone think Rand Paul is anti-war?
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 04:38 PM
Aug 2013

This is from Rand Paul's mouth about Christie

“What does he want to do, shut down military bases in Kentucky?” he told CNN host Wolf Blitzer. “In order to have enough money for national defense, which I think is a priority for the government, you have to be willing to cut spending in other places,

He wants to increase spending for war and then he makes a claim that he is against war.

As for his lying daddy, he wrote
Even the supposedly draconian cuts called for in the “sequestration” budget bill would keep military spending at 2006 levels when adjusted for inflation, which is about as high in terms of GDP as during World War II.
which is an outrageous lie. In terms of GDP, military spending reached about 50% of GDP during WWII, today it is less than 10%.
Anyone who only cares about elections can claim to be anti-war, but when a voter supports proven liars like Ron or big military spenders like Rand, that voter is not a Democrat.

As for this that you wrote
Why don't I attack Republicans more is a question I am sometimes asked... well the simple answer is that they will never listen to me. I have no influence with them, no leverage. But I do, or should, have at lease SOME with my own party.

Attacking the elected Democratic President for abandoning an anti-war stance that he never professed is not a way to assert leverage over actual Democrats. Siding with Libertarian, lying nuts against the Democratic President for not endorsing the claims of the accused felon Snowden is not a good way to convince actual Democrats that you are one of them.

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
137. .
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 05:34 PM
Aug 2013
While the President is the commander of our armed forces, he is not a king. He may involve those forces in military conflict only when authorized by Congress or in response to an imminent threat.

We are borrowing money from countries like China to pay for our wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and it would be interesting to know how many Americans believe we should continue borrowing money and saddling future generations with debt to pay for our current actions in Libya, or anywhere else a new military adventure is taken up.

We are already in two wars that we are not paying for. We are waging war across the Middle East on a credit card, one whose limit is rapidly approaching. And to involve our troops in further conflicts that hold no vital U.S. interests is wrong.


http://www.paul.senate.gov/?p=issue&id=14

That's not anti-war; it is opposition to the current military engagements. I agree with some of this position, but for different reasons. I'm truly anti-war. It's the deliberate bankrupting of the nation and destruction of domestic infrastructure and social programs. I'm anti-war because I think war is wrong.

I tend to attack Democrats more than Republicans because I already know Republicans are the enemy. Democrats are not supposed to be. Betrayal from the inside is more dangerous to the party and the nation; when corruption weakens the Democratic Party to the point that they can't and/or don't effectively oppose Republicans, it's all over. I see that spreading by the day.

As far as attacking the Democratic President for "abandoning an anti-war stance that he never professed..."

Those that think he professed an anti-war stance refer back to remarks he made opposing the war in Iraq before he ever made it to the Senate. I knew better; I listened beyond the "inspiration" of his speeches. I knew he was a hawk. It's one of the reasons I didn't want him nominated. I've opposed his stance on the war since before he was first inaugurated, and I've been proved correct.

I don't have to "side with" anyone to oppose a weak neoliberal president, and I'm not a fan of, nor a supporter of, Rand Paul.

I don't have to convince any "actual" Democrats that I'm one of them. I'm a registered Democrat. I'm an "old" Democrat. I can quite openly and clearly state that, as far as the dlc/centrist/"new" democrat/3rd way/FUCKING NEOLIBERAL brand of Democrat goes...I'm not one of you. Never have been, never will be.
 

burnodo

(2,017 posts)
142. "Siding with"
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 06:49 PM
Aug 2013

The anti-war Democrats were abandoned by the party. Bonobo's point was that it was easier for that group to support the disingenuous anti-war bleatings of people like Paul and Son than it was to support pro-war rhetoric from their own party.

Progressive dog

(6,900 posts)
156. Obama ended the IRAQ war and has started none,
Sun Aug 18, 2013, 02:47 PM
Aug 2013

and then Bonobo praises the empty rhetoric of the airhead Libertarians. It is easier for the Rethugs to support Romney, but the last I knew, this was a Democratic web site.
Obama did exactly what he claimed he would do about the wars, if the RW and the Libertarian followers were going to vote against him on that basis, they have already had two chances.

 

burnodo

(2,017 posts)
157. I'd like a further clarification on "Ended the Iraq war"
Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:03 PM
Aug 2013

since there are still so many paid military contractors there. Obama has perpetuated the military state that came to be in the administrations before him. He's done nothing to fundamentally change that. And the drone strikes? They have increased under Obama exponentially. That's not the action of a progressive president.

Progressive dog

(6,900 posts)
158. He Ended the war, did you know we have embassies and contractors in
Sun Aug 18, 2013, 03:39 PM
Aug 2013

a lot of countries? We even have military contractors here and we aren't at war with ourselves.

 

burnodo

(2,017 posts)
160. Not yet
Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:00 PM
Aug 2013

except for the fact that there's a mission creep where drones are going to be used as domestic enforcement tools

Progressive dog

(6,900 posts)
162. Oh well, I haven't seen a lot aboiut the US fighting in Iraq
Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:15 PM
Aug 2013

but you probably don't get your news through normal channels.

drones are going to be used as domestic enforcement tools

Now I understand, The USA is going to use drones!!!!!

Progressive dog

(6,900 posts)
165. I just replied to what you said. Don't you follow the news?
Mon Aug 19, 2013, 02:15 PM
Aug 2013
where drones are going to be used as domestic enforcement tools

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
149. there simply is no "vision thing" about the Democratic Party these days. At least in 1964 we were
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 11:45 PM
Aug 2013

going to end discrimination, end poverty in American, end the risk of nuclear war and build the great society. By the beginning of the 70's we were going to do all that as well as end hunger in the world and bring an end to war. However misguided libertarianism is and however absolutely terrible their positions are on any number of issues - they inspire a vision of new America albeit a false vision. The inspire hope for a better and more prosperous future - albeit a false hope. The Democratic vision of today is, "let's be socially liberal while only gradually making minor cuts in the social safety net. Let's reduce the debt burden of the young who have to enter the workforce buried hopelessly in debt to buried in debt with a glimmer of hope. Let's have the strongest military and intelligence network the world has ever known - But let's be more pragmatic about it than the Republicans." Is this a vision people are going to sing folk songs about? Is this a vision that can inspire a young person who has to enter a bleaker and bleaker looking work force without much of a scenario of ever getting out of debt and building a prosperous future?

There simply is nothing inspirational, idealistic or hope building about the Democratic Party's message or agenda these days. The false hope and false inspiration and idealism of American libertarianism is attracting lots of young people and will continue to attract lots more - until the message of hope and change can be shown to be a real vision - not just an empty and cynical campaign slogan.

CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
163. The Democratic Party was never a pacifist party.
Sun Aug 18, 2013, 04:33 PM
Aug 2013

Maybe if you attack Republicans the Ron Paul types will listen to you, because you already have some common ground.

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