It's all the fault of the MB. They brought mass murder

[cali]

on themselves. They're a hate group. They're fundamentalists. They deserve it. No tears shed for them.

It's all their fault..

I'm actually seeing people say those things.

but hey, killing people even if they're unarmed is a good thing if they belong to or support a hate group.

and no, I'm not saying that the MB is some harmless group and they have retaliated in hateful ways, but I am laying the largest portion of the blame for the current bloodshed and chaos on Al-Sissi, the military and SA and the UAE; both are bankrolling the military to the tune of billions of dollars to wipe out the MB- and by wipe out I mean kill, detain without trial and torture,

[bemildred]

1. If they did not see this coming they are fools.

This has been happening for 100 years and more now, under kings and colonial rulers and "democratic ly" elected dictators.

[The Magistrate]

11. I Expect They Did See It Coming, Sir, And Thought They Would Win

Some in that body may still think that.

As you observe, this is an episode in a long fight, and while there has certainly been long blood between the military and the Brotherhood in Egypt, it really does go beyond that. Islamic societies in the Near East particularly have faced, since the first serious colonial intrusions in the nineteenth century, a struggle over to how to react to the evident fact of their weakness relative to Christendom, the European powers, the West, call it what you will, from the start and down the years. It is a thing made all the more bitter by the conviction of inherent superiority which is a strong motif in Islamic history and a notable feature of its doctrine. One strain of thought, obviously, has been to imitate the West, to do what it has done, and this line, from the late nineteenth century, has given rise to various nationalist, secularist, and modernist movements. Another line has held that re-assertion of fundamental principles, return to the old ways towards which the deity manifested favor, is the only solution, and within this line, there has been a further split, between those who feel that some Western elements can be adopted for use without entailing the full corruption of the West, and those who feel that anything beyond the purely mechanical must be rejected entire of the deity's favor is to be achieved.

It is an odd feature of history that when societies find themselves at the sort of disadvantage those of Near East found themselves at relative to European powers in the nineteenth century, it is often the military which emerges as the champion of progressive development. This is because, when a society is in a pre-modern, semi-feudal state ( which the Near East was under the rule of the Ottoman in the nineteenth century ), just about everything from improved routines of taxation and increased economic activity to better education and sanitation and improved farming methods, will redound to an increase in military power, translating directly into better soldiers and better weapons for them, and better means to assemble and move them.

Thus the military of a country has often been the spearhead of what a Marxist would refer to as 'the social revolution', the revolution that overthrows a feudal order, a theocratic order, and establishes a modern order, or at least a more modern order, on bourgeois or capitalist lines. A degree of social liberalization is often the accompaniment of this movement, though its authors frequently have no particular interest in such. For however much military elements may see the benefits of social progress for the efficiency of their trade, and so in some circumstances will take very advanced positions on matters economic or industrial or educational, it is also true that military leadership tends to hold extremely conservative views where social and cultural mores are concerned. It is this duality, of desiring some of the fruits of modernity while abhoring others, which ensures that this sort of 'military progressivism' generally produces a social order in which individual liberty and expression meets many restrictions on a personal and political level.

In modern Egyptian history, the military has played this role of 'vanguard party of the social revolution'. In doing so, it was opposed by not only the colonial power of England, and its late puppet, King Farouk, but also by the political and social elements which believed the proper balance of power between Islamic societies and the modern West could only be achieved by re-assertion of the fundamental practices of Islam itself, that the weakness of the place owed not to any flaw in or failure of Islam itself, but to the corruption of Islam, and the backsliding from its ways, which had set in since the glorious days of its foundation, when Islam had swept all before it and been the apex of civilization. While this conflict was pressed with arms from the Islamic side, it would not have to be so pressed to still represent a deadly and irreconcilable conflict with the line see by military leadership as best for its power and the society it was rooted in.

I expect there may have been some brief period after Mubarak's ouster when the military leadership, or at least elements in it, thought some commonality with the Moslem Brotherhood might be managed, since the two parties are in substantial agreement on questions of social and cultural mores. But this cannot have lasted very long, as the commonalities are surface things, and the conflicting elements lie deep in the nature and direction of the two forces.

What we are going to learn as time goes by is which side of this has correctly assessed its actual strength, and which side has over-played its hand....

[bemildred]

12. Right Sir, the thinking they would win is why they are fools.

The only way they win is if the army stays out of it, is incapable, or they own the army. None of those things seems to be the case. My guess is the leadership has been once again not "reality based" enough. Morsi started out reasonably well, but chose or was forced to overplay his hand and alienate too many non-MB egyptians, thus once again giving the Army the pretext and the legitimacy to kick them to the curb.

As a side comment, I just want to observe to you how difficult it is becoming to tell what side various parties are on in the Middle East. The Sunni-Shi'ia angle is of some use, but far from enough.

Perhaps the next time the new "leaders" will be sharp enough to realize that all this stuff about human and political rights is a necessary part of moving the military to a more subordinate role.

Edit: it is true that we may well get a civil war out of this, in which case all bets are off. What happens in Egypt will not stay in Egypt this time.

[bemildred]

13. For the record, Sir, I do not disagree with anything you say.

[jessie04]

2. No, we are against the cycle of violence.

How do you explain the genocide against the copts then ??

[jessie04]

4. see

[cali]

7. the recent attacks are reprisals. And as I said, the MB

isn't innocent of shedding blood, but there is no doubt that this recent cycle of violence was set off - and probably quite deliberately- by the military.

Do some research.

[jessie04]

10. Reprisals ?? Against the Copts??

Yes its the Copts heavy hand against the MB.

ok,thx.

[muriel_volestrangler]

14. It's not 'genocide', it's continuing violence that happens under all Egyptian regimes

Egypt: Security forces abandon Coptic Christians during deadly attack in Luxor

Security forces stood by and failed to intervene during a brutal attack on Coptic Christians in Luxor, Amnesty International said in a briefing published today. During the sectarian violence, security forces left six besieged men –four of whom were then killed and one hospitalized – to the mercy of an angry crowd.

In an attack lasting 18 hours on 5 July, four Coptic Christian men were killed and four others were seriously injured. An angry mob armed with metal bars, knives, tree branches and hammers attacked Christian homes and businesses in Nagah Hassan, 18 km west of Luxor, after the dead body of a Muslim man was discovered near the homes of Christian families. Despite local residents’ and religious leaders’ repeated calls for help, security forces on the scene made only half-hearted attempts to end the violence and sufficient reinforcements failed to arrive.

“It is outrageous that this attack was left to escalate unhindered in this way. Amnesty International has documented a series of cases in the past where Egypt’s security forces used unnecessary force or live fire during demonstrations, yet in this case they held back even though people’s lives were threatened,” said Hassiba Hadj Sahraoui, Deputy Director of Amnesty International’s Middle East and North Africa Programme.
...
Discrimination against Coptic Christians has been prevalent in Egypt for decades. Under President Hosni Mubarak at least 15 major attacks on Copts were documented. Sectarian violence continued under the Supreme Council of Armed Forces and following the election of President Mohamed Morsi. At least six attacks on Coptic churches or buildings took place in 2013 during the final months of deposed President Mohamed Morsi’s administration.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/egypt-security-forces-abandon-coptic-christians-during-deadly-attack-luxor-

[MineralMan]

3. It's all deplorable.

It's also in Egypt, where we have no control or ability to alter conditions. It's also the result of the sectarianism that is rife throughout the Middle East.

You correctly note the problem, but there is no solution we can apply, quite frankly.

[disidoro01]

5. Don't forget the children

The children that have died should have had better parents. Robert Gibbs has said just such a thing in the past, it must be true now as well.

[ConcernedCanuk]

6. "and by wipe out I mean kill, detain without trial and torture,"

.
.
.

hmmm, reminds me of a Country close to me . . .

CC

[Catherina]

8. Rec'd

(a very sad good morning Cali )

9:10 a.m. ET Al Jazeera spoke to Mustafa Murad, a journalist with Al-Iqitsadiya:

"Security forces were deployed around the mosque, we were inside the mosque and we tried to exit individually ... we were attacked by large number of thugs, we saw that any person leaving the mosque is assaulted by thugs outside, sometimes tortured then handed to police, and taken away in a vehicle to unknown whereabouts.

After a while we heard heavy gunfire ... we heard that the police was claiming that some of us inside the mosque were firing back at them, but this is not true, we were in no possession of any arms. The police stormed the mosque firing tear gas and firing gunshots on the roof … police fired into the ceiling and part of the roof fell down. We tried to take cover behind the mosque pillars, anything.

Tear gas was fired, we started to get suffocated and we had to leave for fear of being suffocated to death. We were certain the thugs were still waiting for us to attack us ... If we are spared from the bullet we will not be spared from the thugs who were waiting with knives.

Thugs were standing side by side with police and security and they blocked all the exit ways out of the mosque. I asked the police officer: Why are you not protecting us as you promised? They labelled us as enemies of the state… they are misguided radicalized young people, the thugs. We told them we are not a part of any political party, we are part of the Egyptian people.

I am not aware of the number of those who managed to flee the mosque. I heard one man say he was going back in to look for his sister."

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/8/16/live-updates-egyptinturmoil.html

The government just broadcast a Press Conference, in English, that was voice-over translated into Arabic. The content was just as chilling as the follow-up questions. The government assured everyone it's being *transparent* (yes, they used that word) and that they're fighting "terrorism" and "terrorists".

Here's a screenshot. It reads "Egypt Fights Terrorism"



Amateur video of pro-Morsi supporters inside besieged Cairo mosque

[Downwinder]

9. Just like Occupy, there was no violence until Security showed up.