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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThey collect your data...
and then query it over and over and over and over.
To me each time they do this, it's an abuse. Even if at the end of a query it doesn't spit out a result with your name on it.
It is used to rule you out, which in itself means you were ruled in at some point.
This is just not something I think the USA spy agencies should be doing.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)boston bean
(36,220 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)I had my first dealings with spooks and security types over 40 years ago. I wasn't impressed.
boston bean
(36,220 posts)bad thing to be doing, or allow, imho.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)...of most of this made up crap seems misplaced over the outrage of keeping people from voting.
What good is the 4th without the 15th!?
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)....would want people to do is to take a basher and an idiots word for what America's horrible "gov" is doing at face value then they aim the vitrial sKrate at Obama.
Coordinated, out of proportion and misplaced relative to what the GOP is doing to the 15th amendment.... KNOWINGLY!!
Fuck that, I wait
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)First, the ad hominem attack on Snowden.
Then, the attack on the anti-NSA crowd.
It's getting old.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)...pushing a book the other is pushing how fuckin stupid he can be running off to a reppreisive gay bashing government to get away from....repressive governmetn
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)Ya, right. How stupid do you think WE are to buy that bullshit?
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)...journalistic represion or from being a whistleblower.
That's asinine at best
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)WHAT are you talking about?
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)...retaliation for whistlblowing by running to a country that like Russia.
so the "we" is a miniscule amount of folk who think the racist Ruand Paul is a god and who want to stir up shit
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)patrons. I'm just trying to talk to you, and I can't do that if I don't understand what you're talking about. That's why I asked you to clarify what you were talking about. Get it?
Who is "MOST" people? Where do you get that "fact" from? I think that most people know that Snowden is in Russia because he can't be in the US, because he's running from the resulting ramifications of whistleblowing, and being accused of espionage. In fact, I doubt there's any dispute over those facts, at all. If you have proof of something different, please give it to us. People believe either that he's a whistleblower and/or guilty of espionage. Do you have something else in mind? Seems you do....
Of that subset of people who believe one or the other, or both, about Snowden being in Russia, are you saying that the ones who believe that he is a whistleblower are actually just Paulbots who are trying to stir up trouble?
If so, I think you're sorely mistaken.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)...give a damn about SnowGlen and call tell this is another one of thost "scandals" the right is making up (FAUX news Hearts SnowGlen now) to taint democrats.
Shit smells fishy
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)Honey, you've got to be put on Ignore. Sorry, I just don't have time to waste on arguments that don't make logical sense.
boston bean
(36,220 posts)are younot ok with it?
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)...agencies.
Again, if I'm walking into a building and being filmed I don't have a right to the tape that it is on...
Someone wants to look at the tape later who am I to say they can't!?
neverforget
(9,436 posts)It's not like you can only be outraged at one thing at a time. With Republicans, that's a 24/7/365 chore.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)Guilty until proved innocent.
Straight out of the Code Napoleon.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)...crap about what these agencies are doing
boston bean
(36,220 posts)it has info, and parameters are set and all info is searched to determine an output that matches the input criteria.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)...people don't own.
I walk in the street downtown I don't get to keep the video taken by cameras on the polls or stop lights, the cities want to rewind them some day then what the heck can I do about it!?
protest, again.....this seems misplaced, strange and coordinated
boston bean
(36,220 posts)so what are they bumping their parameters up against. lo and behold, it's a database of information they've collected on innocent americans,and maybe 1 or two terrorists...possibly.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)...to grep that kind of content, the sun power it would take to look through it all isn't even thinkable.
It would be like trying to read the minds of 1/3rd of the people on Earth....
It all sounds like some people taking advantage of the peoples knowledge of what computer systems can and can't do.
Reminds me of the X-Men movie...people scared of what they don't know
boston bean
(36,220 posts)If you're ok with spy agencies using it to rule you in and out of terrrorist or crime investigations, that's you.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)...vehicle traffic is NOT .. .NOT spying and neither is looking at internet traffic.
People don't know the difference...
Come to think of it it's the perfect scare up...
I trust this crap even less
My nor you own the roads our cars travel on, with cameras our cars can be tracked back and forth to work..
Same with internet traffic
boston bean
(36,220 posts)I have spoken about spy agencies using data to rule innocent persons out of criminal investigations.
You see, the way things usually worked in America, is someone needed to have good reason to collect and run these searches on a person. This thing we got going here is everyone is a suspect.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)....bashers and idiots word.
I haven't seen any solid proof (and again, I'm talking about the same amount of proof that was needed to go to war in Iraq) on the issue of the agencies spying to rule someone in or out.
You see, the way things usually worked in America, is someone needed to have good reason to collect and run these searches on a person. This thing we got going here is everyone is a suspect
No, if they're not looking into my car while it crosses their cameras then collecting and running a search on all champagne colored SUVs is not illegal, not spying.
Looking into my car WHILE I'm crossing the cameras for what I'm doing is TOTALLY different
I've seen no proof of this, just some assholes saying the gov is doing it and the gov fuckin up which at times they admit and give reports for oversight.
I don't beleive there's aliens in are 51 either
boston bean
(36,220 posts)Cause it seems you are arguing a point I neveer brought up.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)....just some shit that comes out of a bashers mouth
regards
boston bean
(36,220 posts)to re-read everything I wrote in this thread, but I don't think I've wrote the words "solid proof" except for this post.
Response to boston bean (Reply #23)
Post removed
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)This one is non compos mentis, it looks like.
BumRushDaShow
(128,748 posts)and if that were the case, then they would get the same result over and over. In reality, there is data that does NOT get a "hit" when the search criteria is changed, e.g., if the search term says "Yemen" and there are records with contents not linked to "Yemen", then that record is skipped by the query script, and the contents in those records remain unread.
And your assumption is also that nothing is purged when items slip through - including due to human error (the people who enter the data).
I am no way condoning anything the NSA does, but there's alot of misinformation being put out there to stoke the hair-on-fire crowd.
boston bean
(36,220 posts)bumping it up against a database. And they add to this database all the time, no?
BumRushDaShow
(128,748 posts)You conflated reading one field ("bumping it up against" to check for relevancy to reading all of the contents of the entire record of data as well, which is the "spying" part that gets thrown around.
I.e., the better point to argue being that any record that is "U.S." should automatically be purged unless further investigation finds a link to "foreign" and that should have a warrant to view.
boston bean
(36,220 posts)It's pretty common knowledge that databases are created by gathering information, then to search them one selects parameters, and the data collected is queried to find records that match the parameters set.
Anything else you say I said, is made of whole cloth, by conflating what you have suggested and my responses back to you in refuting things you say I am saying that I have not said. How's that?
BumRushDaShow
(128,748 posts)I have created many.
The issue being that in the more complex databases, what are deemed as "parameters" in the query also filters to discard anything not fitting the criteria (depending on what wildcards are used), but you inferred, by this statement -
To me each time they do this, it's an abuse. Even if at the end of a query it doesn't spit out a result with your name on it.
that the "query" itself goes into and illegaly reads the entire record, and makes a judgment per your purporting that it's "abuse". Queries don't need to read entire contents of records nor do they have human intelligence. They only look for keywords and/or phrases, where some may have algorithms that help to determine that "Cairo, Egypt" is not the same as "Cairo, IL".
boston bean
(36,220 posts)Wild card or no wildcard. It has to scan thee data to omit it.
BumRushDaShow
(128,748 posts)And this is why there is a dispute as to what a query is and does and what is actually being "seen" by a query. Applying pre-technological standards to modern technology, is complex and difficult.
I.e., what you are arguing is that if I'm driving down a street looking for a house with a specific address, then I am violating the privacy of all the occupants in all of the other residences that I pass by on the way to the residence I'm looking for, even though I haven't stepped on the zoned property, let alone gone inside those other residences. Merely driving by them and looking at the bare minimum of identifying info about them (their externally-displayed addresses) to see if a particular residence is the one I am looking for, is sufficient enough for the violation of privacy ("abuse" . Going around the block if I missed it the first time, is probably considered egregious "abuse".
This was one biggest issues about Google Street View cameras (and apparently other things like data sniffers) going up and down streets. However can actually "collecting data" (e.g., the Google "wifi" collection scandal) as one drives along the street be conflated into the same thing as merely "looking at" a specific, "publicly-displayed" address (and then moving on to the next one if it doesn't "match" what you are looking for)?
If you do agree that "looking at" minimal identifying info is just as bad as "collecting", then we might as well dump all of the maps in the U.S. I.e., the courts have been continually forced to define the point at which a line is crossed as technology advances.
Some do argue that this is "trespassing" - i.e., the mere presence of being "near" the residence (say driving down what is marked as a "private road" that runs by several houses towards a residence, with the road is not owned by the occupant of the house at the end of the lane), and that is something that the courts have been continually defining and redefining (e.g, "perimeter" vs something else).
boston bean
(36,220 posts)The collection of innocent persons information to rule them out over and over again in criminal investigations, is the issue.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)....seems like the perfect "scare-up" story.
Started by a basher and an idiot and persisted by Paulinians ....
boston bean
(36,220 posts)Well, then I guess that puts this all to rest. Also, who's scared? I see some questioning and some pushbck, and some discussion. Although, I can see where these things could lead to things that would make people scared.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)...pay for it but the "spying on your data" outrage seems trumped relative to what has be shown as SOLID PROOF.
Now, there's SOLID SMOKING GUN PROOF that the GOP is trying to thwart democracy on it's face...
There's no 1243 daily post about that
out of proportion outrage
boston bean
(36,220 posts)You know the agencies that are classified, and the truth is not all that forthcoming....
However we have the articles, the leaks, etc, where I think pretty soon, you'll see some of that solid proof you've been hankering for. Until, then, you are right, we have to go on what has been divulged thus far, and you have to admit that aint pretty. But don't expect it to come from the NSA, ok... that's got to be a bridge to far for even you to think that they would be more forthcoming and truthful.
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)You walk in the street, someone films you, then strips you down, and take pictures of you, then stores those pictures of you, and keeps searching those pictures to find out if you have any resemblance to anyone else that they dislike.
That's a lot closer to what they are doing.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Th1onein
(8,514 posts)I simply built on YOUR analogy.
Geezus.