I Just Got Back From Catholic Mass...And It Felt Like A Republican Fundraiser.

[PennsylvaniaMatt]

I am Roman Catholic, and I always go to Saturday evening mass. I go with my grandmother not just to make her happy and keep her company, but I also typically get a lot out of it, despite my disagreements with the church on abortion, birth control, and homosexuality. I have known for quite some time that the pastor is a partisan right-winger, yet when he would interject politics into his sermon, he was always usually subliminal.

Tonight was different. The sermon started off talking about how we have moved far from core convictions like "Thou Shall Not Steal," talking about how years ago, it was common for people in my town to keep their doors unlocked. That was fine.

Then the politics started. He started by going on an absolute rant about "political correctness" in our society, which we all know as code for "those damn liberals." And then, he was blatant. He was talking about essentially challenging the status quo, and launched into a tirade about how "You can't challenge the Administration because the IRS will go after you, and the NSA will spy on you." He was very careful not to say "the OBAMA Administration."

I was sitting right up front, and by then, I had let out a few disapproving eye rolls, which I hoped he had seen. But then, it got even worse, when he was talking about society today in the US and said "Look at what happened to Germany!". I let out such a sigh, and I would have gotten up and left if I wasn't with my grandmother.

I was livid by the time I left. Instead of feeling "spiritually renewed", I felt like I had just come from the damn Republican National Convention.

[burnodo]

1. Discuss the church's tax-exempt status with him

He might shut his pie hole soon enough.

I appreciate the positive message you go to church for, but it seems to me that given the Catholic church's history, sitting at home reading Bible passages with your Grandma would be more fulfilling.

[Ilsa]

2. Call the bishop.

The bishop needs to hear it, and if he won't listen, call the archbishop.

I'm not certain the new pope would like it either.

[dflprincess]

15. If the archbishop in the OP's area is like the one we have in St. Paul it won't do any good.

He's done his best to shut down any priest who strays from the party line and the liberal parishes that remain are trying very hard to stay off his radar.

[populistdriven]

3. Sounds like maybe he missed his calling as a journalist; suggest this to him. nt

[Just Saying]

4. Wow

I think I've read some of your priest's posts here at DU!

A priest once told me that he got flak for talking about the evils of war in reference to Iraq. Apparently a priest against war offended some right-wing Catholics. I thanked him for telling the truth but cases like these are among the reasons I'm a recovering Catholic. (No offense to you.)

[PennsylvaniaMatt]

5. No offense taken at all!

If I were to go to this priest all the time, my faith in the Catholic church would have probably eroded by now and I would probably be right there with you!! Fortunately, I spent some time in NY and listened to a fantastic sermon speaking out against materialism and super wealth, so that renewed my faith in the church!

[RKP5637]

6. I find this behavior outrageous. People go IMO to be spiritually uplifted, not

politically preached too. Some of the other posters have made some excellent suggestions IMO.

[UTUSN]

7. R#2 & K for, excellently put.

While I am fairly much lapsed, my whole family has been totally RC. My mother and sister belonged to an extra distilled whaddayacallit, chapter of some kind, and some of their close friends took it to the limit specifically with the anti-Choice issue. It got to the point that the wingnuts were telling the more liberal ones that they were going to hell, and finally for the sake of keeping the sub-group of friends together, politics had to be ruled out of discussion.

Well, it happens, just among regular families. Plus, with my webbring of Vietnam shipmates, I had to call it quits during the '04 campaign when all it came down to was their circulating wingnut smear e-mails.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. You know far better than I do, but you might feel more at home,

at a mass directed by a Jesuit... or in a more liberal place.

And by all means avoid a Dominican.

[OmahaBlueDog]

9. We've experienced this

It varies priest by priest and parish by parish. We don't get this much at our home parish, but we travelled to South Florida and experienced exactly what you are posting.

Much of the "politics" you hear from the pulpit is driven by the Church's reaction to the ACA ("Obamacare&quot and the Church's perception that the birth control mandate violates their "Religious Liberty." So the "Call the Bishop/Archbishop" reaction that is mentioned down-thread, won't work.

I've noticed something else: the priests that seem to go hard in this direction are fans of Pope Benedict. My sense is that the Benedict crowd is ambivalent about Pope Francis, so far. My further sense is what they really wanted to replace Benedict was another hard-line theologian who would roll back Vatican II. - not a Holy Father whose central themes have been reconciliation with the Islamic world and care for the world's poor.

[Iliyah]

10. God bless you!

My brother is a RW and I asked him if I could visit his church in Lancaster, Cali and he said NO.

Why? His church hates LIBERALS. What kind of religion is that

[joanbarnes]

11. I stopped going in 2004...priest telling us to vote for anti-homosexual amendment.

[Coyotl]

12. Go back w/o grandma and do an old-fashioned walk out.

[Cha]

25. Something! To let the priest know he's not doing his job. n/m

[Luminous Animal]

29. Yeah. He should have stuck with the simple gay bashing and then that would have

been a-okay. Anti-gay... anti-woman... why thats just the Catholic way!

Anti-Obama... how dare he! He should stick to his gay hating job!

[blueamy66]

49. Not true

not true at all

[Arugula Latte]

59. Those are the official positions of the Church.

So, yes, it is true.

Women and gays are second-class citizens to the RCC. Funny there are no women in any roles of power in the Church. Qu'elle coincidence.

[blueamy66]

63. But the "Church" IS the people.

Not all Roman Catholics share this view. I am a woman and NEVER felt as though I was a second class citizen.

I knew many nuns through out my life that were very powerful within the Church. The principal at my Catholic HS was a woman and believe me, she was powerful. I also knew many gay people that were respected and accepted within the Church. Hell, my Mom was the most faithful, strict, religious Catholic I have ever met and one of her best friends was gay.

I don't care about the "official positions" of the Church. Again, the "Church" is the people. Don't pigeonhole all Roman Catholics.

So, no, it is not true.

[Arugula Latte]

67. "The people" are still enabling the creepy anti-women crooks at the top.

[blueamy66]

68. Not all of us are.

nt

[PennsylvaniaMatt]

71. You are right...Not all of us are supportive of anti-women and anti-gay positions held by the church

[zbdent]

13. Should have asked the priest how many of his brethern ...

he had hidden from the law when it came to molesting children ...

[VPStoltz]

14. Do you think Jesus would have sat there and tried to challenge this cretin with a few eye-rolls?

These types - with the help of the REAL pulpit - will go on alienating church goers until they are PUBLICLY challenged and humiliated.
I'll bet your grandmother would have been proud of you.
I did, and quit the so called "catholic" church and never looked back.

[Dawson Leery]

16. Find another church.

[dflprincess]

17. Are you sure your Grandma wouldn't have supported you in your walk out?

I have a 91 year old aunt (well, she was just a girl of 89 when this happened) - but at my brother's memorial service I chanced upon her and the priest discussing our current archbishop. Neinstadt had been the bishop of the diocese my aunt lives in until he got the promotion to take over the St. Paul Archdiocese. Anyway, the gist of their conversation was how awful he is. My aunt's opinion didn't surprise me but I was surprised by the priest - but then he did come from one of the more liberal parishes in the area. If I lived closer to the parish I might be tempted to start going to Mass again.

On the other hand, when my mom died, I had the hospital call in their Catholic chaplin because I knew she would have wanted the Last Rites. (Mother died unexpectedly and I got back to the hospital after she was gone). So the priest finishes the prayers and at that point I'm the only there with him, just waiting for my sister-in-law and a few of the grandkids to get there. I was on one side of the bed and he was on the other and the SOB starts rambling on about the evils of abortion. I swear if it had not literally been over my mother's dead body (an expression she often used) I would have gone for his throat. Fortunately some of the relatives showed up then so he felt free to leave and not stay to "comfort" me any more.

[Initech]

18. If churches want to preach politics and endorse candidates, they pay. Period.

We could end the deficit if we made churches and the über wealthy pay.

[mstinamotorcity2]

19. Probably were

at a republican fundraiser. Didn't you know that right wingers are the holiest of Christians???

[MichiganVote]

20. I'm sorry but I cannot understand why anyone would support this church

It has about the bleakest moral inventory known to man for centuries upon centuries. You say you get something out of it usually. This organization knowingly and with forethought abused the helpless. Children across this globe subjected to hideous abuse and betrayal by priests, bishops and the Vatican hierarchy with no thought to their welfare.

You're upset because they spin a republican line. That's just sad. Of all the important reasons to disregard and abandon the nonsense this church espouses, that is the least of what it has done.

This church is a morality killer with or without a political opinion. It exists to propagate itself even as its meaning and message have been aborted by quarrelsome and useless tenets. This is not living church. No new varnish will make it so.

[Patiod]

52. A lot of it is cultural

Just like there are cultural Jews, there are cultural Catholics.

They don't go to Mass, they don't support any of the Church's cultural stands, and yet they are hurt (and a little offended) if you leave and join another church - it's as if you are repudiating them as a person. And I understand that feeling. Someone who is leaving your church is saying "your beliefs are not acceptable"

I had this happen a lot when I became a Quaker. I hadn't agreed with RC teachings since I was a teenager, but felt compelled to stay nominally Catholic for my parents. But once I had moved out and felt surer on my own two feet, I left. Almost all of my friends were born Catholic, and many good friends told me (in all sincerity) that they felt hurt that I left the Church. Twice people told me they had planned for me to be the Godmother of one of their kids, but now I couldn't. This kind of reaction even came from a very close girlfriend who was herself questioning the church after a priest refused her (but not her husband) communion because her husband was divorced.

The "just leave" mentality is fine if you're on your own and far from home, but it's a lot harder if you're surrounded by the people you grew up with - you aren't just leaving a Church, you're to some degree leaving family, friends, and (in many cases) a strong parish community.

[MichiganVote]

58. I grew up in the church and I mean I REALLY grew up in the church.

So I am familiar with the "I'm hurt" crapola. But I still say, when the realities of the immorality of hiding the abuse of children and of adults by clergy becomes 2nd to the, 'I just can't handle leaving b/c of pressures from friends or family'-you or anyone else needs a serious reality check.

At one time church affiliation was akin to a union membership. Still is in some locale and among some denominations. Today I would argue that is less about culture and more about the marketing of belief and faith.

The lions share of the work that has been undertaken by the victims and their families to bring change to the RCC has not yet effected sustained change. And btw, the husband who was divorced -if he had been previously married in the Roman Catholic faith-is the party who is denied communion per the RCC tenets. If he had not been married previously in the RCC, and is a member of the church today, he and she is entitled to communion. I suspect the priest in question had another reason for his choice.

[rug]

21. The homily is supposed to have something to do with the day's readings.

Today's is a real barnburner.

Gospel Luke 12:49-53

Jesus said to his disciples:
“I have come to set the earth on fire,
and how I wish it were already blazing!
There is a baptism with which I must be baptized,
and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished!
Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth?
No, I tell you, but rather division.
From now on a household of five will be divided,
three against two and two against three;
a father will be divided against his son
and a son against his father,
a mother against her daughter
and a daughter against her mother,
a mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

Between the first reading from Jeremiah and the Epistle, I can see how he could have turned it into a rant about politics. Of course he took it in the wrong direction. I'll be interested in seeing where the priest in my parish takes it tomorrow.

What diocese is this? I'm in the Scranton Diocese.

[PennsylvaniaMatt]

22. Yes, you are right! He turned it political and took in the complete wrong direction.

This is the Altoona-Johnstown Diocese.

[rug]

23. It's interesting how priests, even within the same diocese, emphasize what they choose to.

So far, the priest we have has not once veered from the core message of caring for each other.

But then he's only been here 18 months.

I wouldn't hesitate to tell him what you think of his sermon. They almost all have email. The last priest in our parish sent me an email one Sunday afternoon complaining that I was reading the bulletin during his homily. I sent him one back telling him next Sunday I'd read the Catechism instead. The exchanges went downhill from there.

[cprise]

24. Leave.

I don't mean in the middle or a sermon. Just don't go back to the church. Or... maybe do both.

I'm middle aged now and have seen plenty of people try to hang on to the Catholic church out of some sense of loyalty, desire to reform and even because of the terms of an inheritance.

Let me lay it out for you right here: That last reason is the *only* reason to stay, and only then if the inheritance is very substantial. Its not worth it.

You know why the current Pope is from South America? It because South Americans have been leaving the Catholic Church in droves. So they made a political decision to put a South American face on their organization. Leaving is the only thing that makes a real difference with a church, because religion has a way of shutting out new people and information it encounters. Even so, the extent of the change--as with the German Pope--is little more than a superficial PR tactic.

[Luminous Animal]

26. So you regularly attend a meeting led by a homophobic misogynist and you are surprised

that you get a Republican Fundraiser.

Sigh and roll eyes.

[MADem]

27. Send him a letter disapproving of his behavior, make sure you mention that

you didn't like him getting political AND intolerant from the pulpit, suggesting that he needs to shut his fat mouth and behave a bit more like Jesus (in nicer language, of course) and then put, at the bottom,

Copy to:

Daniel Werfel, Acting Commissioner, Internal Revenue Service

Pope Francis I, The Vatican

It might make his bowels loosen a bit, if only slightly!

Alternatively, if you have a cellphone video, or a flip camera, record his little sermon next time, and put the hate on YOUTUBE for all to see--that'll fix his little red wagon...!

[Cha]

34. "In nicer language of course"..

by all means!

Excellent suggestion, MADem. I think it should be written down for posterity.. the IRS reference is a nice touch.

The "alternatively" approach is brilliant.. can you imagine! Priest gets exposed for ignorant political, hate preaching from the pulpit.. More than a few would not be amused. red wagon.

[Deep13]

28. There are other options, you know.

The Episcopal Church has apostolic succession and is in communion with the Roman Catholic Church.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

30. Yeah, that's not true.

The apostolic succession is debatable. But the Episcopal or Anglican Church is NOT in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church.

[Deep13]

32. I believe the "yes" side of the debate.

It only takes one bishop to establish succession, after all.

And without more than a simple denial, my understanding continues to be that the two bishops, Canterbury and Rome, are in communion.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

35. In the Christian world.

Being in communion with another church generally means you are allowed to partake in the sacrament of the Eucharist at said church. Catholics are NOT allowed to partake in communion at a Episcopal church or any other protestant church for that matter. Episcopalians practice open communion Roman Catholics do not. Also the views and beliefs on the sacrament are far too varied in the Anglican/Episcopal church (everything from evangelicals who think the sacrament isn't the blood of Christ just representative to Anglo Catholics who believe in transubstantiation)

[Deep13]

64. The Maronite Church welcomes you! nt

[Summer Hathaway]

31. Would you mind posting

the name of this church, the name of the priest delivering this sermon, phone number for the rectory, email adress, etc.?

I'm sure that a lot of us would like to express our views directly to the parish involved.

[blueamy66]

69. Yeah, that will change his mind. Not.

He's an ordained priest. He really isn't going to care what someone from the DU, from another state and probably of another religion (or none at all) has to say to him.

[pnwmom]

33. He sounds like a lot of DUers.

"You can't challenge the Administration because the IRS will go after you and the NSA will spy on you."

[Cha]

36. Priest sounds like a whinebot who's heard too many

rush limbaugh programs.

[B Calm]

37. I would have a talk with grandmother and see how she feels about this pastor.

[Smarmie Doofus]

38. He shouldn't have strayed. We have a society... an entire *culture* based on *theft*.

>>>>The sermon started off talking about how we have moved far from core convictions like "Thou Shall Not Steal,">>>>

Our leaders revel and glory in it ... and our people are sick with the LOVE of it.... and the church correctly ( in this case) invokes the bible: " the love of money is the root of all evil."

"ALL evil."

But the church bureaucracy would rather talk about "something else". *Anything* else.

[darkangel218]

39. Last time i went to church i got up and left 10 mins into the mass.

That was aprox 10 years ago.

Umm.. never again. I felt like I was suffocating in there. Especially when they started " singing"

Not for me I guess

[OmahaBlueDog]

42. I'm trying to figure out what they could have done that was that offensive 10 minutes into a mass

Usually, at the 10 minute mark, we've called to mind our sins, sang or recited the Gloria, and maybe gotten to the first reading.

Usually the 25-30 minute mark is where things can go off the rails.

[darkangel218]

43. Mightve been longer, i dont remember

They were telling us to open the bible at certain pages, I was so lost, didn't know shit since I never read the whole thing.
I was trying to pick to my pew neighbours, but I couldn't see. It was embarrassing. I left when the squealing/singing started. Oh, and I gave them 5 dollars.

[OmahaBlueDog]

45. OK - this sounds like it was a non-Catholic service

Maybe a mega church or something like that.

The laity (i.e. the audience) don't actually open Bibles (strange as that sounds to non-Catholics ) in Catholic or Episcopalian services (which are almost identical); they have what are called "missals" that contain the readings, the songs, and the commonly used prayers.

I've been to the type of services you describe, and I could see where 10 minutes would be enough to get one to the door.

[darkangel218]

46. It was a nondenominational Christian church in Miami Beacb.

[LuvNewcastle]

40. Sounds similar to a Southern Baptist sermon.

If you don't somehow let this priest know that you don't approve of his preaching politics, he will think everyone agrees with him and he'll be encouraged to keep it up. Let him know, and tell him you're going to find another church if he doesn't stop it. If he keeps it up, keep your word.

[geek tragedy]

41. What's his DU username?

The talk about NSA and Nazi Germany references have been made over and over here.

[CK_John]

44. Admit it you sat there and said or did nothing, eye rolls don't count. It only takes one

to speak out and shift the dynamics.

[NickB79]

47. And they then wonder why numbers are in freefall

And blather about "reaching out to the youth" and some other bullshit.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

48. Funny thing. I also went to a Catholic mass yesterday.

There, the priest spoke in his homily about:

a) The need for humane immigration reform in this country that welcomes people from violence torn regions of Latin America
b) Sustainable wages and safe working conditions for workers in places such as Bangladesh, and boycotting companies who sell products that are manufactured in those substandard types of environments.
c) Recognizing that hoarding wealth and riches is antithetical to the principles of the faith and the importance of sharing with those less fortunate than you.

What was best was watching my uber-right in-laws squirm uncomfortably throughout it all.

The thing about Catholic parishes and the priests at them is that they are diverse. For every parish that is lead by a priest who seems to exhibit ultra-conservative ideology--even on matters not related to social issues but instead economic ones, you'll also find a parish whose pastor may express some very refreshing beliefs, even some that you might not expect.

We Catholics, we truly are a mixed bag.

For a priest--one who is active and in good standing--with some refreshing views and beliefs, I might suggest you check out the National Catholic Reporter's columnist Father Peter Daly:

http://ncronline.org/authors/fr-peter-daly


Furthermore, he's not just a talking head in an Ivory Tower but an active parish priest who deals every day with parishioners and their very real problems. N

[Patiod]

55. I've seen that in action

I've left the Church and become a Quaker. Having said that, my parents were very, very involved in their parish.

When my widowed dad, who I had been living with and taking care of died last year, the priests, (even the worst of the rightwingers) were wonderful. I have very little family, and they stepped up. I was sitting alone at Hospice all day for a week and a half (my husband was working days at the time), and so many men from my dad's church showed up and sat with me. Because of all the priests and deacons and the Bishop he was friends with, my dad probably got Last Rites at least four or five times. They made sure I was supported (I have a lot of good friends, but people assume you want to be with "family" at a time like this, and even your best friends don't always realize that family might not show up.)

After he died, all sorts of people came out of the woodwork to help - the deacon's wife helped me plan the funeral, the church secretary offered to take my dad's elderly dog (I still have the little guy), the church's Bereavement Committee showed up with food - they were great. People called to check up on me even though they knew I was a Heathen. (I should mention that my own Quaker Meeting sent a sizable group to the funeral, who all sat through the whole Mass, even with all that yapping that was going on!)

I suffused the whole funeral with Matthew 25 - the Gospel reading, "Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers" song - you name it. My dad was big on volunteering and service and an avid Democrat (all of which I mentioned in the eulogy), so it was definitely what he would have wanted.

So that's another component that the "just leave" contingent doesn't understand - the importance of community, and how good the church ("organized religion&quot can be about supporting those who are involved in their parish community.

[olddots]

50. this is why people leave organized religion

n.t.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

51. write the white collared miscreant.

Do a serious letter, politely, explain why you were so offended and how far those type of republican values have strayed from the actual teaching of that make believe water walking, banker hating, crowd feeding, faith healing, jewish cult leader. (although you may not want to quote me exactly. I suspect it might offend some)

[dembotoz]

53. more guts than i got --i would have walked muttering a little too loudly about how the priest was an

asshole

[sarcasmo]

54. The tax exempt status these Charlatans hide behind should have been revoked years ago.

[Dash87]

56. The far right morons are pushing the "IRS" conspiracies.

I listen to Hannity and Limbaugh, and they're pushing this crap onto their listeners. 'Don't speak out against the government or they'll audit you!' Hannity even had callers in claiming that they were audited for being Republican. lmao

Hannity and Limbaugh are about as believable as Glenn Beck these days. No wonder their shows are going down the tubes.

[Zorra]

57. If you've never read "The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood, I highly recommend it

as a fiction novel that illustrates what could happen when the christianist religious right takes over the US.

It's scary.

[Arugula Latte]

60. I've gone to a couple of Catholic weddings that were absolutely disgusting.

Woman as helpmate to man, yadda yadda ...

I don't know why women regularly subject themselves to this bullshit in the pews of many of these churches, frankly.

[RagAss]

61. If you sit in an outhouse then expect to smell shit.

[raccoon]

62. I feel your pain. I had a similar experience in a Sunday school class at a Methodist church.

I can sort of go along with some church stuff--take what you want and leave the rest--but when they
get into right-wing and Republican stuff, I can't take it any more.

After that experience I didn't go back.

[Go Vols]

65. Fuck the Church

any of them,

[MellowDem]

66. Is there any other organization you would remain in...

That had the same views on women and homosexuals as the official Church doctrine states? Personally, I don't think there is ever a good enough reason to give any such organization the time of day, much less be a member of it. There are so many alternatives as well.

[Aristus]

70. When people rant against 'political correctness', it usually means they're upset because they

can't use the n-word without suffering highly justified social sanctions.

It should never be made illegal to use that word; but it should be made extraordinarily uncomfortable for anyone to consider using outside of a didactic context.